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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:If a "proper" WW (waistwrap) is a butterfly/ ttn performed on both sides (btb in a front wall plane), with a 1bt carry btb in between. Then what is a WW weave? I cant fint it in "jillings".



I also couldn't find... a impossible WW.



Example :

Right hand btb untill its so far around that its in the front, and poi is in front wall plane. The left hand all the way round in front that it sticks out btb, that poi is btb plane. And then cycle through each plane, untill your hands are in the opposite position (to above) -> "Left hand btb untill its so far around that its in the front, ..."



"proper" split WW maybe?



Iv no idea, but i do know its hard! ANyone here claim it?

EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1110849300)


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Analemma
Analemma

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Posted:The one "impossible" WW you describe is what most people I have met call a "normal" WW. Didnt know that the Butterfly variations are called Waist wrap too . . . 5 Beat Splittime Thread the Needle Waist wrap . . . hmmmm.

names . . .

smile


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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:Written by:


most people I have met call a "normal" WW





Are you sure, cause unless you have arms of rubber i dont think it can be performed "in plane".



/me trys to find jillings online

EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1110800847)


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coleman
coleman

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Posted:"If a "proper" WW (waistwrap) is a butterfly/ ttn performed on both sides (btb in a front wall plane), with a 1bt carry btb in between."

that's arashi's mirror ww.
we had a nice discussion about these a while back.
i said i found the clubswinging 123carry ww more fundamental and he liked the mirror one for similar reasons - both have advantages, it just depends on which angle you prefer looking from smile

my idea of a 'proper' btb bf ww is:

1 - bf by left hip, in front wallplane with right arm btb
2 - btb bf
3 - bf by right hip, in front wallplane with left arm btb
carry - one arm does top carry btb, other arm does bottom carry btb.

i'm sure you know but there's a thread on these here.

i still can't do more than 1 revolution of the regular 123carry with bf - mirror is actually easier although i get horrible wonky planes.

a clubswinging full ww is spun in a weave and mixes the 123carry in front and btb.
the link is a front carry with one hand and a back carry with the other.

doing this with sametime butterflies is uberjedi :zen:


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
coleman

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Posted:handy reference:

'clubswinging 123carry waistwraps' by anna jillings


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:TY COLE!

Sry i got mixed up with the defnition smile

So ur saying what i described above, is what you call a Written by:
sametime butterflies



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spiralx
spiralx

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Posted:Or are we talking about doing a WW where you go around BTB and then back in front so you do another circle BTB reaching all the way around your body? Simian does those just about - it's beyond me and my tubby stomach though wink ubblol

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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:Written by:
Or are we talking about doing a WW where you go around BTB and then back in front so you do another circle BTB reaching all the way around your body?

spiral

thats it

seperated.


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Analemma
Analemma

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Posted:Written by:
i dont think it can be performed "in plane".


Imo it all depends on what you learn first. And "in plane" is quite a difficult term.

beerchug andy


Off topic: Where does the term "proper" come from anyway? It does not really say anything. ( Colour: Gray. Compared to purple figure8s wink)
What is a proper fountain? What is a proper Butterfly weave? What is a proper Waist wrap?
My guess: Probably it origination from "shortest transition" or "least beats" in order to find efficient spinning eek. Or it might just have been "My favourite" or "I want to name something". Replace as you like shrug


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coleman
coleman

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Posted:offtopic for andy...



when i started the 'proper btb bf ww' thread it was called the 'full btb bf ww'.

but then after a bit of discussion in that thread, someone pointed out that that would have to be a full waistwrap (front ww joined with btb ww) with poi spinning opposites so i went back and changed the title of the thread to 'proper' instead.



i had seen a weave waistwrap given a standard, well-defined description in several places (schatz, jillings, gandini clubswinging dvd, here).

this led me to take the clubswinging style btb 123carry waistwrap as the fundamental move.

it can be linked to the front version, spun about the shoulders as opposed to the waist (the other half of a fountain) and even spun with poi going in opposite directions smile



now the bf ww that many people on hop spin is an opposite direction reel with a hand in the ww position every now and again - its on the gandini dvd if anyone has it but is not given a name ubbrollsmile

it had been referred to on hop as a bf ww but the hand movements and beat count are very different to the weave 123carry ww.



i wanted to learn the 123carry ww with poi spinning opposites rather then the easier low reel based version.

thus, i dubbed this 'new' type of bf ww the 'proper' version as opposed to the other version that we already had.



'proper' in this case means 'the move you spin in weave exactly translated to butterfly - hand motions remain consistent'.



i.e. to get a proper bf ww, do a weave 123carry waistwrap and change nothing except reversing the direction of one of the poi.



you see, proper is a great word! tongue

but it doesn't apply like you suggested.



a proper butterfly weave' is an excellent example and uses the same application:

the 3bt weave is a 3bt split-time move.

a 'proper 3bt bf weave' means you should spin exactly the same move but with one of the poi spinning in the opposite direction - i.e. it should still be 3bt and split-time and your hands and arms should still be moving in a 3bt weave motion.



and just to be pedantic: a fountain is fwd to rev 3bt weave in the wallplane with 6 points picked to be the centre of rotation.

so a 'proper bf fountain' would be the same thing but with one poi in reverse direction - this gives you one arm doing a fountain and the other doing an antispin fountain - magic smile



so to answer your questions, 'proper' meant none of those things you suggested but rather 'the exact butterfly equivalent of the weave move'.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Analemma
Analemma

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Posted:offtopic for coleman . . . (a.) probably we should start a new thread and b.) I find this offtopic smiley too agressive wink)

Written by:
'proper' in this case means 'is the move you spin in weave exactly translated to butterfly - hand motion remains consistent'


I dont know many people who spin a "proper" weave in the first place. The only person who is coming even close to spinning a "proper" fountain is Nick. So how can people discuss compound concepts and discuss about "properness"? Or probably I just got to know the wrong spinners?

Written by:
a fountain is fwd to rev 3bt weave in the wallplane with 6 points picked to be the centre of rotation.



Isnt this just one out of many variations?!? Why is this one "better"/"more proper" than others? I know and appreciate the use of terms in order to communicate ideas and to stirve for higher aims (has been covered on this board before) but the use of "proper" can be very misleading.
An example out of my experience is the "proper" 3beat wave: Everyone can teach it, knows it, knows how to call it, but almost noone is capable of doing 2beat weaves . . . what is "unproper" about the 2beat weaves?!?
(Test yourself: Spin a Windmill. Easy. Now stop it: Keep one hand in front and one behind the head. Splittime static. Easier?)
Just my humble oppinion.....

grouphug

off topic off


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coleman
coleman

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Posted:offtopic (you're right, that smiley is far too grumpy smile)

okay, 'proper' is not saying "this is the only move called x" or "this is the definitive version of x".

it is saying "there is a move called x that is spun in followtime - this is it using split-time bf".

weave to me means 'cross-follow'.
cross-follow is a 2bt move.
cross-follow with extra circle is a 3bt weave.
and so on.
but round here, the lessons say 'the weave' refers to the 3bt cross-follow.
shrug

i would *never* say there is a move that is the 'proper weave'.
i'm saying that since there is a standard definition of 'the weave' on hop, by saying 'proper bf weave', it indicates that the move i am describing is the exact bf equivalent of 'the weave'.

as for the fountain definition, i *love* discussing this (where's drew? wink)...

to be honest, i just take the definition from clubswinging and stick to that.
you are right that for poi swingers, there is no standard fountain as most poiers put an extra 2bts in via a windmill without even thinking about it anyway.

a fountain to me can be simply defined as i did in my last post.
taking any bits out of will result in losing an aspect of the move and adding bits will just make it more complex without changing the concept of the move i.e. variation (add beats with wrist twists, spin it antispin and so on).

i get what you are saying about proper being misleading but i've only ever used it the once, and that was simply because there were a whole bunch of bf ww's kicking around and i needed a way to describe this version.

'proper' seemed to say "it adheres to the standard definition of the weave waistwrap but is in bf" rather than "it is another bf variation of a variation on a weave waistwrap".


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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bluecat
bluecat

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Location: everywhere
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Posted:ubblol

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Analemma
Analemma

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Posted:nice one cole . . . so ill put in something ON Topic:

"Proper" 9 beat "impossible" waistwrap spiralling one hand "in plane" hug

And dont forget to practice it the other direction too wink

MY move biggrin

andy


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coleman
coleman

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Posted:nah man - anything with the word 'proper' in the name is MY move wink tongue hug

anyway, i reckon a move with the word 'impossible' in the name is very intimidating.
so i'm going to run in the opposite direction from it now.

on topicness: i've seen isolated waistwraps and have seen isolated butterflies but not isolated butterfly waistwraps...

and how the hell do you isolate a carry?
it freaks me out when i think about how it might work... confused


cole. x

*damn that matt henham for using the coolest song i can find for a video in his promo already*


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:I like how u guys can go off topic real subtle wink



Do you even know what im talking about>? Because this "impossible" move is nothing like a standard WW, proper or not. An yes iv searched all the forums and jillings etc and ...nothing.



Can u check this thread Cole posted .... http://www.semlyen.net/cosmosjugglers/lib/lesson17.pdf
br>


Ok figure 17.5 near the bottom, the diagram is cake because the figure hasn't even come near being in the right plane, his right hand is in front... but it should stretch round his side till its btb, the other hand is on the btb plane, it should stretch around till it's in the front, "wall plane" its should then "cycle" back into diagram 17.5 and back again untill its reverse diagram 17.5 and back again till it totall stretch on the opposite side. And in perfect plane, there are only 2 planes in the movement im using, front wall plane and btb wall plane.



Do you even see from the diagram, that his elbows should be right in the way? Thats why i call it impossible, though its not.

EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1110848003)


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Dragon 7, the term waist wraps causes much confusion. Traditionally, waist wraps were used to describe a series of 2-beat club swinging moves, in wall plane. Then the good people of poi added butterfly waist wraps to the original definition, and while that generally works, it can get confusing. (will check fig 17.5 ).



Cole has already linked to the traditional Jillings waist wraps, cheers.



People might be surprised, but we all have access to rubber arms, and they can be purchased with technique and practice. Dont give up, if I can do btb wws anyone can, anyone.



The spiral waist wrap is a club swinging move that uses the snake grip to create the spiral.



Poi BoxII, Im surprised you hear you say that you dont know many people who can spin a "proper" weave or fountain. It aint that difficult if you know the technique.



The waist wraps come from Indian club swinging and have been used for at least 150 years. Think carefully before you as the question What is a proper fountain? or as I prefer, when talking about old moves What is the traditional fountain? Because its a hornets nest.



The lower waist wraps can be linked into the full fountain, and the lower ww is indeed the basic lower fountain.



I follow the Schatz school of traditional and proper club swinging wink and he uses the term fountain instead of waist wrap. This make sense to me because you cannot have a upper waist wrap.



Each fountain is independent, and the basic fountains are follows:

Lower front fountain.

Lower back fountain.

Upper fountain.



There is NO windmill in the traditional upper fountain as those circles are done in front, not behind the head like a windmill.



Now, as explained previously, you can link the lower front fountain to the lower back fountain. You can also link lower front to upper fountain. This is often called the full fountain. And then you can link them all up together and produce many combinations.



Check out the club swinging thread for detailed discussions on Fountains.





Cheers smile

EDITED_BY: Stone (1110847976)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:Yea i nailed all the WW in those online books...but this 1 is still giving me trouble after near 3yrs!



So i should edit the term WW off the title smile usually as soon as i read the word "fountain" i switch off, iv yet to read and understand what a fountain is, cause there are so many varaitions.



I just hope someone here understands what im trying to say...



Written by:
Example :

Right hand btb untill its so far around that its in the front, and poi is in front wall plane. The left hand all the way round in front that it sticks out btb, that poi is btb plane.


EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1110849460)


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:eek No dont use fountain or theyll shoot me wink. Convention suggests we use waist wraps for poi, and any change will cause much confusion.

Dragon 7 for the full waist wrap you say Ok figure 17.5 near the bottom, his right hand is in front... Its the left hand in front. Going to the right the right hand leads and the left follows. Its generally the follow hand (left in this case) that links the wws together. I have so much trouble with these figures and Im still confused.


Hope that helps smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:Sry my bad, it is his left hand in front.

*edit*

Ok figure 17.5 near the bottom, the diagram is cake because the figure hasn't even come near being in the right plane, his left hand is in front... but it should stretch round his side till its btb, the other hand is on the btb plane, it should stretch around till it's in the front, "wall plane" its should then "cycle" back into diagram 17.5 and back again untill its reverse diagram 17.5 and back again till it totall stretch on the opposite side. And in perfect plane, there are only 2 planes in the movement im using, front wall plane and btb wall plane.


Im not letting 1 poi follow the other, they spin at the same time.

I know simian can reach that far around his body, i havnt seen to many other people do it. But reaching that far around on both sides at the same time is not easy.

Technecally the pattern (cycle) should go like :

(1)right hand btb stretch round to the front wall plane, left hand stretch round the front sticking out btb wall plane -> (both hands trasnition at the same time)

1bt and go into

(2) diagram 17.5

1bt and go into

(3) mirror image of diagram 17.5

1bt and go into

(4) left hand btb stretch round to the front wall plane, right hand stretch round the front sticking out btb wall plane .

Comprende?


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arashi
arashi

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Location: austin,tx
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Posted:I'm not even going to read this whole thread, i'm going to just keep alive the delusion that i finally uinderstand all this ww business. tongue (okay i don't know what a fountain is, sue me)Written by: coleman

on topicness: i've seen isolated waistwraps and have seen isolated butterflies but not isolated butterfly waistwraps...




btb isolated split/normal bfly trinity mirror ww yawn ubblol


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
coleman

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Posted:i get ya dragon.



its like a waistwrap hug type thing - arms wrapped all the way round your body.

simian does this kind of stuff because he can but i haven't seen him manage this - i'll make him try later wink



it looks like it hurts!



its real awkward for planes because where you would normally push your hip forwards to help keep the btb ww poi in plane, they all of a sudden are getting in your way again.



have you tried it one arm high instead (so for example your right hand does btb to infront at waist level and your left arm goes in front of your head to btb over the right shoulder?

it might look a bit like your choking yourself but it may also be a little easier because you can twist your waist and your shoulders in opposite directions and you head is alot easier to get all the way round like that.

drew and dom do these - one does the weave version and the other does butterfly - i can't remember who does which.



both jonnny moohaahaa and me bammy do this move in wheel plane too - jonnny does both hands low and bammy does one hand high, one hand low - with the 90 deg difference this gives you its a sh!tload easier but still looks lovely.



and finally, if you can get into the wheelplane position, with clean planes, would it be possible to pirouette (spin round) to get out of it...?





cole. x



[made some edits - all additions smile]

EDITED_BY: coleman (1110889455)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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spiralx
spiralx

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Posted:I'd call them waist wrap crossers myself ubblol I can sort of do them...

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Dragon7, the words make it confusing.

In Fig 17.5 the waist wrap hug type thing is not difficult. Try it without poi, just hold that bit.

I dont think its both sides at the same time. Its split time so Fig 17.5 just shows the transition. So the left hand is travelling right, while the right is travelling right (btb from the left).

His left hand is in front... but it should stretch round his (RIGHT) side till its btb. Where it joins the right hand.

Will post the full ww if needed?

Good question coleman, sounds like a great place to do a pirouette, will try smile

Sure arashi, Ill give that a isolated split/normal bfly trinity mirror ww thingy a go when I wake up wink

weavesmiley


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Analemma
Analemma

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Posted:Written by:
Poi BoxII, Im surprised you hear you say that you dont know many people who can spin a "proper" weave or fountain. It aint that difficult if you know the technique.



It aint difficult if you know the technique. IF you know the technique

Kendo
Student to Master: I know how to properly draw my sword - now teach me how to fight
Master: biggrin

Kyodo
Student to Master: I know how to properly shoot an arrow - now teach me how to hit more targets
Master: biggrin

Poi
I know how to spin a proper circle - teach me a proper 5 beat weave

Written by:
btb isolated split/normal bfly trinity mirror ww yawn ubblol



biggrin wink

are we still off topic?!?


To learn - read. To know - write. To master - teach . . .

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:hold on, let me see if i Got this straight up...

1, right hand streched right around the back to infront, left hand streached round the front to btb.

2, right hand comes to btb wal plane, left hand is in front wall plane (wich is what 17.5 looks like to me)

3, right hand in front wallplane, left hand btb wall plane

4, right hand streched around the front to btb, left hand streched round the back to btb.

come back the other way.

if this is what you mean, then whats so difficult? got this split and butterfly and follow and parallel. :P

unless this isnt it, and im missing something.

and i recon it looks nicer carried from point 1 to point 4.

cole, isolated carries, do iso either side in folllow time, pirroette. its the same feeling as a normall carry, but isolated. wink

Takkit easy,

Tom wave

p.s. yes i cant decide how to spell streatch ubbloco


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:Nx? can I do this? I can't make head nor tail of this thread.

ubbloco

oh and it's stretch wink


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:thanks love,

and yes, you can do this no problem.

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:lol i had to go look it up.

stretch that is.

stoopid dictionary didn't have waist wraps wink


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:one of the hardest moves i know;
5 carry impossible (spider) ww without turning/moving your feet positions... ends up being isolated at the ends.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:im a bit hazy on your carry numbers, but it seems like that ends up with the arms streached around the front, around your back and right around the front again, that is hard. eek

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Page: 12

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