Forums > Social Discussion > Equal Rights
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veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
Posted:
I had to start a new topic for this one.
I saw a discussion being started on another board and instead of going off topic I decided to start this thread to hear and discuss people's views and opinions.
Please bear in mind though this may sound racist in no way am I a racist!
Okay here goes:
I am all for equal rights and am one of the biggest advocates for it but Australia is the biggest hypocritical country when it comes to equality.
When I first came to Western Australia I was friends with a young aboriginal boy (he was 19 and I was 18), he was not working, not studying and not looking for work either.
I was told by the government that I was not entitled to any form of allowance while looking for a job because my parents earned to much (nevermind that I was 18 and wasn't living even in the same state as my parents).
Now my aboriginal friend was getting over $400 a fortnight in payments from the government he also got a deal on a cheap (NEW) car and his rent in the place he was staying was also paid by the government....
In no way was this boys family poor either....so what the hell is with that?
If we want to move forward in this world and want EQUAL rights why the hell don't we actually make the rights equal for everyone instead of one set of rules for them and one for us.
I had to start a new topic for this one.
I saw a discussion being started on another board and instead of going off topic I decided to start this thread to hear and discuss people's views and opinions.
Please bear in mind though this may sound racist in no way am I a racist!
Okay here goes:
I am all for equal rights and am one of the biggest advocates for it but Australia is the biggest hypocritical country when it comes to equality.
When I first came to Western Australia I was friends with a young aboriginal boy (he was 19 and I was 18), he was not working, not studying and not looking for work either.
I was told by the government that I was not entitled to any form of allowance while looking for a job because my parents earned to much (nevermind that I was 18 and wasn't living even in the same state as my parents).
Now my aboriginal friend was getting over $400 a fortnight in payments from the government he also got a deal on a cheap (NEW) car and his rent in the place he was staying was also paid by the government....
In no way was this boys family poor either....so what the hell is with that?
If we want to move forward in this world and want EQUAL rights why the hell don't we actually make the rights equal for everyone instead of one set of rules for them and one for us.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Good point, Medusa, I’ll re-post my comments here.
I think many people make indigenous Australians sound like victims, and the only way to help is to keep throwing money at the problem.
What do people think of Noel Pearson’s thoughts on breaking down 'passive welfare dependency' amongst Cape York Aboriginal people, by reinstating the rights of Aboriginal people to take responsibility for their lives?
Good point, Medusa, I’ll re-post my comments here.
I think many people make indigenous Australians sound like victims, and the only way to help is to keep throwing money at the problem.
What do people think of Noel Pearson’s thoughts on breaking down 'passive welfare dependency' amongst Cape York Aboriginal people, by reinstating the rights of Aboriginal people to take responsibility for their lives?
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
enthusiast
247 posts
Location: Cork, Ireland at present
247 posts
Location: Cork, Ireland at present
Posted:
Yeah, I see your point, I met a guy in Broome, who got a fine for drinking on the streets, he asked why don't the aboriginals don't get fined and the cop said 'cos basically they don't pay.. so it's no point. Also I heard of families getting loans for a car, paying the first couple of installments, then not paying and the state picks up the bill, not sure how true but you always here of stories of this sort.
There's too much to it for one answer.. and no-one will be right in everyones eyes
??????
Yeah, I see your point, I met a guy in Broome, who got a fine for drinking on the streets, he asked why don't the aboriginals don't get fined and the cop said 'cos basically they don't pay.. so it's no point. Also I heard of families getting loans for a car, paying the first couple of installments, then not paying and the state picks up the bill, not sure how true but you always here of stories of this sort.
There's too much to it for one answer.. and no-one will be right in everyones eyes
?????? I used to be indecisive, but I'm not so sure now.....
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Posted:
I cannot see a way forward to the situation we see in West Australia and I assume in the rest of the country with the Aboriginal situation. There is a succession of lost generations that mesh in no culture and want to take from everywhere.
In some situations kids get little support at home with schooling and teachers are struggling to get the kids to have any literacy levels at all. So therefore they cant function at school so they are disenchanted and fall by the educational wayside. With no home incentive to go to school these kids cause problems like we have experienced with vandalism and theft. But what is left for these kids for kicks.
Maybe these kids need a consistancy of teaching staff and understanding of their cultural upbringing so teaching staff can make a difference. Things like apologising to women is not part of the culture of some tribes. So where does a female teacher stand. After a year spent getting trust and knowledge the kids move on. There needs to be huge positive support from home.
I get frustrated as I cannot see a real answer to the racial problem I see here. These kids come to school hungry and dirty, they smell. They are rude. The language is abymsmal and yet these kids are so young to be like this.
Many places in West Australia have some answers to school attendance with incentives like school attendance gives a pool pass. This has an added bonus of the kids get their sores and ears washed out and see a huge drop in ear and health problems like kidney infection as well as a rise in school attendance.
I think I try not to be rascist but I am failing. The criminal activity against my family has slowly began to eat away at my objectivity.
Sure there are many aboriginals who have successfully made their way within the mainstream culture. So many times the tall poppy syndrome results with these poeple vilified by the ones who cannot make their way.
Maybe I will go read that other dudes ideas and get some myself
I cannot see a way forward to the situation we see in West Australia and I assume in the rest of the country with the Aboriginal situation. There is a succession of lost generations that mesh in no culture and want to take from everywhere.
In some situations kids get little support at home with schooling and teachers are struggling to get the kids to have any literacy levels at all. So therefore they cant function at school so they are disenchanted and fall by the educational wayside. With no home incentive to go to school these kids cause problems like we have experienced with vandalism and theft. But what is left for these kids for kicks.
Maybe these kids need a consistancy of teaching staff and understanding of their cultural upbringing so teaching staff can make a difference. Things like apologising to women is not part of the culture of some tribes. So where does a female teacher stand. After a year spent getting trust and knowledge the kids move on. There needs to be huge positive support from home.
I get frustrated as I cannot see a real answer to the racial problem I see here. These kids come to school hungry and dirty, they smell. They are rude. The language is abymsmal and yet these kids are so young to be like this.
Many places in West Australia have some answers to school attendance with incentives like school attendance gives a pool pass. This has an added bonus of the kids get their sores and ears washed out and see a huge drop in ear and health problems like kidney infection as well as a rise in school attendance.
I think I try not to be rascist but I am failing. The criminal activity against my family has slowly began to eat away at my objectivity.
Sure there are many aboriginals who have successfully made their way within the mainstream culture. So many times the tall poppy syndrome results with these poeple vilified by the ones who cannot make their way.
Maybe I will go read that other dudes ideas and get some myself
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu
enthusiast
247 posts
Location: Cork, Ireland at present
247 posts
Location: Cork, Ireland at present
Posted:
This is just something I see happen... young kids, probably bro n sis playing in a playground (this is in Port Hedland??), then this native girl came up, and started playing seeing the other two having fun. As soon as the white girl see the new girl, she stopped playing and just looked out the corner of her eye. Now little bro, ain't got any worries about who he plays with.. until he see's how his sister is acting, so he stops playing... now there's only 1 kid playing.. by herself, which it looked like she was pretty much used to.
This I thought was bad, kids this young, brought up to ignore/shun other kids, which you could well justify with the comments already made.. but this was little kids man, no older then 10 yrs. Thats just plain wrong.
This is just something I see happen... young kids, probably bro n sis playing in a playground (this is in Port Hedland??), then this native girl came up, and started playing seeing the other two having fun. As soon as the white girl see the new girl, she stopped playing and just looked out the corner of her eye. Now little bro, ain't got any worries about who he plays with.. until he see's how his sister is acting, so he stops playing... now there's only 1 kid playing.. by herself, which it looked like she was pretty much used to.
This I thought was bad, kids this young, brought up to ignore/shun other kids, which you could well justify with the comments already made.. but this was little kids man, no older then 10 yrs. Thats just plain wrong.
I used to be indecisive, but I'm not so sure now.....
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Posted:
*whew*
18 pages later I still have no answers other than removal of substance abuse. But this is almost impossible for the metropolitan situation. Not sure of the success of it in remote areas where there are always people to smuggle it in.
In some communities part of the social security payments used to be in vouchers to shopping centres which limited how much could be spent on grog and enabled families to feed the families before that whole social drinking thing took over. Anecdotal evidence suggested once the payments where made as complete payments the rate of alcohol abuse increased. Thats information from an observer in the shops not government surveys.
My worry was when IV drug abuse hit the communities what would happen. Once HIV gets into the community what will happen then. In a nameless NW town the passed out drunk old men were getting abused by the young men on the way home from a bender. The number of very young children in remote communities with sexual diseases is very sad. Locally there was a clampdown in a community where sexual abuse was supected to be common and the people were split up and the elder suspected responsible removed. This resulted for us in a drop in crime in our area. But didn help most of the poeple directly involved and now there is a heap of disused buildings going to waste.
Maybe it would be better to encourage a stoner culture. Alcohol encourages viloence, paint sniffing screws your brain. But this is not a solution to a very complex problem.
*whew*
18 pages later I still have no answers other than removal of substance abuse. But this is almost impossible for the metropolitan situation. Not sure of the success of it in remote areas where there are always people to smuggle it in.
In some communities part of the social security payments used to be in vouchers to shopping centres which limited how much could be spent on grog and enabled families to feed the families before that whole social drinking thing took over. Anecdotal evidence suggested once the payments where made as complete payments the rate of alcohol abuse increased. Thats information from an observer in the shops not government surveys.
My worry was when IV drug abuse hit the communities what would happen. Once HIV gets into the community what will happen then. In a nameless NW town the passed out drunk old men were getting abused by the young men on the way home from a bender. The number of very young children in remote communities with sexual diseases is very sad. Locally there was a clampdown in a community where sexual abuse was supected to be common and the people were split up and the elder suspected responsible removed. This resulted for us in a drop in crime in our area. But didn help most of the poeple directly involved and now there is a heap of disused buildings going to waste.
Maybe it would be better to encourage a stoner culture. Alcohol encourages viloence, paint sniffing screws your brain. But this is not a solution to a very complex problem.
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu
enthusiast
247 posts
Location: Cork, Ireland at present
247 posts
Location: Cork, Ireland at present
Posted:
I don't think there is no answer... other then time... and alot of it at that!!!
I don't think there is no answer... other then time... and alot of it at that!!!
I used to be indecisive, but I'm not so sure now.....
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
well, to me it sounds like they don't have to play be the rules - so why the hell should they? I wouldn't if I didn't have to.
It'll take 3 generations at least once people do start making them play by the rules though.
well, to me it sounds like they don't have to play be the rules - so why the hell should they? I wouldn't if I didn't have to.
It'll take 3 generations at least once people do start making them play by the rules though.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
World Champ Procrastinator
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
Posted:
at the top of this thread someone wrote that it doesnt count to say that they have been treated unfairly.. but i think that is a very important factor in the case of the Australian Aboriginals.
from an early stage the aboriginals were given alcohol either for free or for a very low price (cant exactly remember) by the new aussie gov't to keep them in check as they were considered 'savages'.. the same thing happened in North America with the natives there.. there is still evidence of this gross injustice today.. in Sydney esp. there are a lot of aboriginals who have become alcoholics (one can say through the fault of the gov't) and just hang in parks all day and night.. so it is (also) through no fault of their own that they have become maladjusted in today's society.. of course it is also correct (to a certain degree) to say that they refuse to conform to western culture, and that too is understandable, because in 300 years their way of life, culture, beliefs, mythology, was almost entirely wiped out.
the fact that the gov't has now admitted that they have done wrong is good, but that the compenstation they offer is in monetary terms in my opinion is definitely not good enough.. ok, so they get free cars, and a helluva lot of tax breaks and whatnot to make their life easier these days, but a culture or a civilisation cannot be priced, let alone bought.
at the top of this thread someone wrote that it doesnt count to say that they have been treated unfairly.. but i think that is a very important factor in the case of the Australian Aboriginals.
from an early stage the aboriginals were given alcohol either for free or for a very low price (cant exactly remember) by the new aussie gov't to keep them in check as they were considered 'savages'.. the same thing happened in North America with the natives there.. there is still evidence of this gross injustice today.. in Sydney esp. there are a lot of aboriginals who have become alcoholics (one can say through the fault of the gov't) and just hang in parks all day and night.. so it is (also) through no fault of their own that they have become maladjusted in today's society.. of course it is also correct (to a certain degree) to say that they refuse to conform to western culture, and that too is understandable, because in 300 years their way of life, culture, beliefs, mythology, was almost entirely wiped out.
the fact that the gov't has now admitted that they have done wrong is good, but that the compenstation they offer is in monetary terms in my opinion is definitely not good enough.. ok, so they get free cars, and a helluva lot of tax breaks and whatnot to make their life easier these days, but a culture or a civilisation cannot be priced, let alone bought.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Carpal \'Tunnel
5,814 posts
Location: Perth, Australia
Posted:
If the problem was hanging out in parks and being social with each other there would be no problem. If the problem was the govt throwing money at a situation in ways that doesnt help that would be ok.
Whats not ok is the level of violence to person and property. Its basic rules of humanity that are being broken. Children are being brought up broken but the govt cant get in to help them. If the money was used to research and fund culture that would be grand.
Substance abuse is such a huge issue here. The kids are chroming from a very young age in very public places. Once these kids fall behind in schooling its a hard road to catch up even if they are offered scholarships later.
Maybe I keep going on that education is the key but to successfully assimilate it seems the key to me. I dont mean losing touch with ancestral history, family should be able to help with that I would hope and kids who have hope would want to know more about their history
Mainstream education is failing for these (and many other ) kids in a huge way and many schools seem to be just places for the kids to be and get a meal and time out. I cannot see a solution though. Teachers dont want to go to these schools to be abused while they make a difference. As Vanize said thiscant be fixed in one generation. It will take several and i the meantime the racial problems will continue.
If the problem was hanging out in parks and being social with each other there would be no problem. If the problem was the govt throwing money at a situation in ways that doesnt help that would be ok.
Whats not ok is the level of violence to person and property. Its basic rules of humanity that are being broken. Children are being brought up broken but the govt cant get in to help them. If the money was used to research and fund culture that would be grand.
Substance abuse is such a huge issue here. The kids are chroming from a very young age in very public places. Once these kids fall behind in schooling its a hard road to catch up even if they are offered scholarships later.
Maybe I keep going on that education is the key but to successfully assimilate it seems the key to me. I dont mean losing touch with ancestral history, family should be able to help with that I would hope and kids who have hope would want to know more about their history
Mainstream education is failing for these (and many other ) kids in a huge way and many schools seem to be just places for the kids to be and get a meal and time out. I cannot see a solution though. Teachers dont want to go to these schools to be abused while they make a difference. As Vanize said thiscant be fixed in one generation. It will take several and i the meantime the racial problems will continue.
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Gnor, I thought there would have been more on reinstating the rights of Aboriginal people to take responsibility for their lives.
Vanize, the reality is that there won’t be a problem in 3 generations time.
Gnor, I thought there would have been more on reinstating the rights of Aboriginal people to take responsibility for their lives.
Vanize, the reality is that there won’t be a problem in 3 generations time.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
World Champ Procrastinator
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
Posted:
you really dont think so stone???
you think that this problem will be solved in less than 100 years when it took 300 to create??
you really dont think so stone???
you think that this problem will be solved in less than 100 years when it took 300 to create??
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Apologies stickman, I was being facetious.
The point I was making was that at this rate extinction is a real possibility. This was brought home to me when I went to a photographic exhibition of aboriginal culture. I was shocked by the number of faces that had been covered over since the exhibition started touring the country.
Apologies stickman, I was being facetious.
The point I was making was that at this rate extinction is a real possibility. This was brought home to me when I went to a photographic exhibition of aboriginal culture. I was shocked by the number of faces that had been covered over since the exhibition started touring the country.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Scientist!
578 posts
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posted:
Alright, coming from a small town North American, I must say, although I did know there was a mild problem with this kind of thing down there in Aussieland, I never knew it was as bad as you are all saying it is. We never hear about the these kinds of problems down there, and the gov't here (Canada) tries to cover up most of the aboriginal problems (much along the same lines as you have there) in the media, so we barely hear about our own problems.
My GF happens to be 50% Aboriginal (enough to entitle her to all the perks), so I get both sides of the story. She knew from an early age that when she got to university the gov't would give alot of help so she wouldn't have to worry about anything. Although her parents are split up, it's not like she doesn't live a nice liftstyle.
I have talked to her a few times on this topic, and she agrees, she doesn't really see how it's fair that she gets all this stuff for free, when all that makes her different is her blood.
Certainly she does enjoy the perks, and when ever she goes back to the reservation (A few times a year, since it is a fair drive away) she does enjoy it, but how is she all that different from me, Who will get no government support, and will have to pay for it all my self?
I'll see if I can get a few quotations from her on this matter though, just to bring in an objective opinion, because it sounds like the situation in Australia is the same as it is in Canada (and possibly America, but they killed most of the aboriginals, so I'm not sure if there was a substantial amount to keep the blood line flowing)
Alright, coming from a small town North American, I must say, although I did know there was a mild problem with this kind of thing down there in Aussieland, I never knew it was as bad as you are all saying it is. We never hear about the these kinds of problems down there, and the gov't here (Canada) tries to cover up most of the aboriginal problems (much along the same lines as you have there) in the media, so we barely hear about our own problems.
My GF happens to be 50% Aboriginal (enough to entitle her to all the perks), so I get both sides of the story. She knew from an early age that when she got to university the gov't would give alot of help so she wouldn't have to worry about anything. Although her parents are split up, it's not like she doesn't live a nice liftstyle.
I have talked to her a few times on this topic, and she agrees, she doesn't really see how it's fair that she gets all this stuff for free, when all that makes her different is her blood.
Certainly she does enjoy the perks, and when ever she goes back to the reservation (A few times a year, since it is a fair drive away) she does enjoy it, but how is she all that different from me, Who will get no government support, and will have to pay for it all my self?
I'll see if I can get a few quotations from her on this matter though, just to bring in an objective opinion, because it sounds like the situation in Australia is the same as it is in Canada (and possibly America, but they killed most of the aboriginals, so I'm not sure if there was a substantial amount to keep the blood line flowing)
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />
SILVER Member
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
Posted:
Hey I understand that there were problems in the past but to blame the past on a current situation...well hang on a second that is ludicis (I know I spelt that wrong).
Something that happened years and years ago has nothing to do with the current generation.
You know what really irks me in todays day and age that bloody "sorry day"....I am not apologising for something I didn't do to someone who didn't even damn well go through the thing we are apologising for.
Don't get me wrong I do feel bad about the fact that it happened in the past but the past is the past and unless we move forward there is never going to be an end to the problems.
Hey I understand that there were problems in the past but to blame the past on a current situation...well hang on a second that is ludicis (I know I spelt that wrong).
Something that happened years and years ago has nothing to do with the current generation.
You know what really irks me in todays day and age that bloody "sorry day"....I am not apologising for something I didn't do to someone who didn't even damn well go through the thing we are apologising for.
Don't get me wrong I do feel bad about the fact that it happened in the past but the past is the past and unless we move forward there is never going to be an end to the problems.
World Champ Procrastinator
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
Posted:
totally agreed medusa, except with the first statement.. we can definitely blame the past on the current situation in this case.. the current situation would not be the way it is if the past did not happen the way it did.
totally agreed medusa, except with the first statement.. we can definitely blame the past on the current situation in this case.. the current situation would not be the way it is if the past did not happen the way it did.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
someone correct me if I'm wrong...but I didn't think New Zealand have this problem in the way we do...and my understanding as to the reason why is because right at the start, the Maori people stood up for themselves in a way that Australian Aboriginies did not. European settlers are European settlers everywhere - so why did it turn out so differently? Because the native populations reacted differently.
/food for though
someone correct me if I'm wrong...but I didn't think New Zealand have this problem in the way we do...and my understanding as to the reason why is because right at the start, the Maori people stood up for themselves in a way that Australian Aboriginies did not. European settlers are European settlers everywhere - so why did it turn out so differently? Because the native populations reacted differently.
/food for though
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
World Champ Procrastinator
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
Posted:
The Maori were by nature an aggressive tribe, a violent one, whereas the Australian Aboriginals were passive and only used violence in order to be able to eat.. in that light, i think either the european settlers were more startled there than in Oz and just thought, "ok, well just leave them to their business", or the Maori were like, "yea right white boy! you aint gonna take MY land!" and fought back..
dunno really......
The Maori were by nature an aggressive tribe, a violent one, whereas the Australian Aboriginals were passive and only used violence in order to be able to eat.. in that light, i think either the european settlers were more startled there than in Oz and just thought, "ok, well just leave them to their business", or the Maori were like, "yea right white boy! you aint gonna take MY land!" and fought back..
dunno really......
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
which is, of course, why there were spearings, slaughters of white camps, and thefts all the time.
I reckon the main reason there wasnt a bigger uprising against the 'white invaders' was that there was no cohesive government, no talking beyond the tribes. sure, there was the occasional brush, but in general, the tribes werent all that friendly to one another. civil, perhaps, but not friendly. but back then, and even today, even if there was communication, there wouldnt have been a cohesive strategy, because each tribe was too independant. I reckon that even today, if we were to say to all the aboriginal groups 'yep, pick a day that we, the european community, can concentrate all our efforts on better reconciling with you', that day would never come, for the arguments, discussions and bickering.
which is, of course, why there were spearings, slaughters of white camps, and thefts all the time.
I reckon the main reason there wasnt a bigger uprising against the 'white invaders' was that there was no cohesive government, no talking beyond the tribes. sure, there was the occasional brush, but in general, the tribes werent all that friendly to one another. civil, perhaps, but not friendly. but back then, and even today, even if there was communication, there wouldnt have been a cohesive strategy, because each tribe was too independant. I reckon that even today, if we were to say to all the aboriginal groups 'yep, pick a day that we, the european community, can concentrate all our efforts on better reconciling with you', that day would never come, for the arguments, discussions and bickering.
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
MiG, i feel sad that i must agree with you, tis a sorry state of affairs politics.
MiG, i feel sad that i must agree with you, tis a sorry state of affairs politics.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
World Champ Procrastinator
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
Posted:
yes, its sad but probably true...
yes, its sad but probably true...
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
luckily humans are able to laugh which is what i do at pollies most of the time ;D
luckily humans are able to laugh which is what i do at pollies most of the time ;D
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
I think another important factor in this is the aboriginal concept of land ownership, in that they believe they belong to the land and not the other way around. So when a bunch of white guys showed up and said "we are taking your land", they sat there and said "huh?" because it was a totally alien concept. The white guys were saying that they were taking something that was physically impossible to own.
The white guys had some problems understanding the aboriginal way of relating to the land in other areas too. They thought that as the aboriginal people were nomadic, any location would do for them. So they could just nomad off elsewhere. In fact the tribes had their own distinct areas which they felt a connection to. These areas supplied all their needs. So to lose an area, was to lose that connection, and to lose their food source. Then they were pushed, by necessity, into another tribal area, possibly starting a war with that tribe.
Greatly weakened by diseases they had not been exposed to before, cut off physically and spiritually from the land (almost like not allowing someone to practice their religious beliefs), cut off from their food sources, exposed to a new and less healthy diet. In areas such as Tasmania, the target of government sponsored campaigns of annihilation. In other areas just the target of settler aggression (rarely effectively policed even though the laws were in place to protect the aboriginal people from assualt and murder). Some did fight, and very effectively, but with the factors above the change was almost inevitable.
At an individual level, each person makes a choice about how they will lead their life. The choice is shaped by their upbringing, and their culture. It is almost impossible to untangle where personal choice ends and upbringing begins. What I think is more important is the recognition that we have a problem and that there are people in our land who are in trouble. We have an obligation to do our best to help because we are human and they are human.
Written by: stickman
The Maori were by nature an aggressive tribe, a violent one, whereas the Australian Aboriginals were passive and only used violence in order to be able to eat.. in that light, i think either the european settlers were more startled there than in Oz and just thought, "ok, well just leave them to their business", or the Maori were like, "yea right white boy! you aint gonna take MY land!" and fought back..
I think another important factor in this is the aboriginal concept of land ownership, in that they believe they belong to the land and not the other way around. So when a bunch of white guys showed up and said "we are taking your land", they sat there and said "huh?" because it was a totally alien concept. The white guys were saying that they were taking something that was physically impossible to own.
The white guys had some problems understanding the aboriginal way of relating to the land in other areas too. They thought that as the aboriginal people were nomadic, any location would do for them. So they could just nomad off elsewhere. In fact the tribes had their own distinct areas which they felt a connection to. These areas supplied all their needs. So to lose an area, was to lose that connection, and to lose their food source. Then they were pushed, by necessity, into another tribal area, possibly starting a war with that tribe.
Greatly weakened by diseases they had not been exposed to before, cut off physically and spiritually from the land (almost like not allowing someone to practice their religious beliefs), cut off from their food sources, exposed to a new and less healthy diet. In areas such as Tasmania, the target of government sponsored campaigns of annihilation. In other areas just the target of settler aggression (rarely effectively policed even though the laws were in place to protect the aboriginal people from assualt and murder). Some did fight, and very effectively, but with the factors above the change was almost inevitable.
At an individual level, each person makes a choice about how they will lead their life. The choice is shaped by their upbringing, and their culture. It is almost impossible to untangle where personal choice ends and upbringing begins. What I think is more important is the recognition that we have a problem and that there are people in our land who are in trouble. We have an obligation to do our best to help because we are human and they are human.
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
enthusiast
247 posts
Location: Cork, Ireland at present
247 posts
Location: Cork, Ireland at present
Posted:
Good point, but why is it "that there are people in *our* land who are in trouble"????
I was told that all the Aboriginals in Taz were all taken to a cliff and told to jump or they'd be shot. The cliffs are now a tourist attraction. Is there any truth in this????
Good point, but why is it "that there are people in *our* land who are in trouble"????
I was told that all the Aboriginals in Taz were all taken to a cliff and told to jump or they'd be shot. The cliffs are now a tourist attraction. Is there any truth in this????
I used to be indecisive, but I'm not so sure now.....
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I though that they were poinsoned...or at least, my literature book makes a reference to strychninne in their flour.
I though that they were poinsoned...or at least, my literature book makes a reference to strychninne in their flour.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,084 posts
Location: melbourne, victoria, australia
Pooh-Bah
2,084 posts
Location: melbourne, victoria, australia
Posted:
The distrust that exists between aboriginals and non aboriginal aussies is the same type exists between warring parties. I think it's based on mutual disrespect, "they don't play by our rules because we treat them like crap, we treat them like crap because they don't play by our rules...." Neither parties are willing to make the effort to show respect.
white settlers did some horrific things to the aboriginals, there is no denying this. no, it wasn't you or me who did this, but those actions still affect people today, and if it was me, i'd be bloody angry too.
Saying 'sorry' isn't always about apologising for something that you did. if a person tells you 'my dad died' and you tell them 'i'm so sorry', it is expressing sorrow for what they are going through, not that you caused the death.
Now I know that I'd probably be writing something very different if I were more exposed to the violence etc. that's going on elsewhere in Australia, but this is my opinion coming from my experiences.
The distrust that exists between aboriginals and non aboriginal aussies is the same type exists between warring parties. I think it's based on mutual disrespect, "they don't play by our rules because we treat them like crap, we treat them like crap because they don't play by our rules...." Neither parties are willing to make the effort to show respect.
white settlers did some horrific things to the aboriginals, there is no denying this. no, it wasn't you or me who did this, but those actions still affect people today, and if it was me, i'd be bloody angry too.
Written by: Medusa
You know what really irks me in todays day and age that bloody "sorry day"....I am not apologising for something I didn't do to someone who didn't even damn well go through the thing we are apologising for.
.
Saying 'sorry' isn't always about apologising for something that you did. if a person tells you 'my dad died' and you tell them 'i'm so sorry', it is expressing sorrow for what they are going through, not that you caused the death.
Now I know that I'd probably be writing something very different if I were more exposed to the violence etc. that's going on elsewhere in Australia, but this is my opinion coming from my experiences.
SILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
I understand what you are saying with the first point, that using a term of ownership ("our") suggests a perpetuation or the concept of ownership that sparked the problem in the first place. I guess what I was searching for was a statement that expressed the sentiment "we are all part of this, all in this together. Because we live on this land, this is our problem too".
As to Aboriginal deaths in Tasmania, I don't know about the "jumping off a cliff" thing. I would suggest that is a story mixed from elements of the Myall Creek Massacre (which occurred on the mainland, and involved a group of settlers effectively "herding" women and children off a cliff.) and other event which did occur in Tasmania. At one stage the Tasmanian governor ordered all white men on the island to form a chain, and then they basically moved across the island, like a giant pheasant hunt, trying to capture or kill all the aborigines. The nice thing about this? They didn't find a single person (sucked in!!)
In Tasmania all the usual things occurred, poisoning of wells, shootings etc. As an additional factor, there was a strong black market in Kangaroo meat for a time, and the hunters were a lawless bunch who really didn't like the native inhabitants as they saw them as competition.
The final death knell was when someone had the brilliant idea of bringing tribes into settlements. Using aborigines such as Truganini as translators and persuaders, they went to each tribe and convinced them to move to the settlements. In these settlements they effectively just fell like flies due to change in diet and to disease.
There is a lot in the Australian history to regret. Just as there is for many many other countries.
Written by: Bretch
Good point, but why is it "that there are people in *our* land who are in trouble"????
I was told that all the Aboriginals in Taz were all taken to a cliff and told to jump or they'd be shot. The cliffs are now a tourist attraction. Is there any truth in this????
I understand what you are saying with the first point, that using a term of ownership ("our") suggests a perpetuation or the concept of ownership that sparked the problem in the first place. I guess what I was searching for was a statement that expressed the sentiment "we are all part of this, all in this together. Because we live on this land, this is our problem too".
As to Aboriginal deaths in Tasmania, I don't know about the "jumping off a cliff" thing. I would suggest that is a story mixed from elements of the Myall Creek Massacre (which occurred on the mainland, and involved a group of settlers effectively "herding" women and children off a cliff.) and other event which did occur in Tasmania. At one stage the Tasmanian governor ordered all white men on the island to form a chain, and then they basically moved across the island, like a giant pheasant hunt, trying to capture or kill all the aborigines. The nice thing about this? They didn't find a single person (sucked in!!)
In Tasmania all the usual things occurred, poisoning of wells, shootings etc. As an additional factor, there was a strong black market in Kangaroo meat for a time, and the hunters were a lawless bunch who really didn't like the native inhabitants as they saw them as competition.
The final death knell was when someone had the brilliant idea of bringing tribes into settlements. Using aborigines such as Truganini as translators and persuaders, they went to each tribe and convinced them to move to the settlements. In these settlements they effectively just fell like flies due to change in diet and to disease.
There is a lot in the Australian history to regret. Just as there is for many many other countries.
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
yeh Rozi some of those facts are right.
the herding of aboriginals over a cliff to my knowledge isnt true for tassie.
and the white chain that was meant to catch all the aboriginals actually caugh two people, a young boy and an old man.
i'd never heard about poisoning wells, but yeh there were lots of shootings, the first ever time english colonists encountered the aborginals in tasmania was unfortunately while the aborginals were on a hunting trip, to cut the story short, the hunters became the hunted(by artillery no less).
the Aboriginals weren't to go into settlements. what actually happened was a white man who actually cared about the natives managed(through Truganini) to negotiate with the aboriginals on behalf of the government.the aboriginals agreed to share the land in return for some benifits and believing the governments word most of the surviving aboriginal inhabitants of tasmania boarded ships to go to flinders island(a island to the north east of tassie). where they patiently waited on the government to honour its word, but that never happened. on flinders is where they died in settlements. nowadays there are no full blooded tasmanian aboriginals.
this is my knowledge of the tasmanian aboriginals after studing them almost every year in highschool.( at one stage the tasmanian government even denied this ever happened)
Written by: RoziWritten by: Bretch
Good point, but why is it "that there are people in *our* land who are in trouble"????
I was told that all the Aboriginals in Taz were all taken to a cliff and told to jump or they'd be shot. The cliffs are now a tourist attraction. Is there any truth in this????
(everything that Rozi said that would make a quote to damn huge!)
yeh Rozi some of those facts are right.
the herding of aboriginals over a cliff to my knowledge isnt true for tassie.
and the white chain that was meant to catch all the aboriginals actually caugh two people, a young boy and an old man.
i'd never heard about poisoning wells, but yeh there were lots of shootings, the first ever time english colonists encountered the aborginals in tasmania was unfortunately while the aborginals were on a hunting trip, to cut the story short, the hunters became the hunted(by artillery no less).
the Aboriginals weren't to go into settlements. what actually happened was a white man who actually cared about the natives managed(through Truganini) to negotiate with the aboriginals on behalf of the government.the aboriginals agreed to share the land in return for some benifits and believing the governments word most of the surviving aboriginal inhabitants of tasmania boarded ships to go to flinders island(a island to the north east of tassie). where they patiently waited on the government to honour its word, but that never happened. on flinders is where they died in settlements. nowadays there are no full blooded tasmanian aboriginals.
this is my knowledge of the tasmanian aboriginals after studing them almost every year in highschool.( at one stage the tasmanian government even denied this ever happened)
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
World Champ Procrastinator
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||
Posted:
this is probly the worst part of it all tho.. to deny ever having committed genocide on such a large scale
Written by: Mr Majestik
nowadays there are no full blooded tasmanian aboriginals.
this is my knowledge of the tasmanian aboriginals after studing them almost every year in highschool.( at one stage the tasmanian government even denied this ever happened)
this is probly the worst part of it all tho.. to deny ever having committed genocide on such a large scale
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
this is true
this is true
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
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