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Jai - Staff
Jai - Staff

member
Location: Gold Coast
Member Since: 27th Oct 2004
Total posts: 85
Posted:Hey all,

Earlier this year the Crusty Deamons did a tour. They had a gig in Melbourne and had a few fire spinners. They are doing a tour again next year, i just wanted to know if they are going to be doing the same. I wouldnt mind doing it.

Yeh i know that you dont get paid. But who cares, how many chances do you get to go to see a show like this, let alone actually perform at it. If i was a professional who makes money off fire spinning then i wouldnt. But im not.

Its a chance to premote fire spinning!

If anyone knows anything about it then please can you get back to me. Would really like to know anything about it.

Thank you all very much.

Jai


I can't wait to die, I'm going to Hell. They have fire down there!

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vyvyan
vyvyan

journeyman
Location: tell me when you find me
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 92
Posted:Hey stone, i still, still have never seen a more wicked baton twirler than that time you chucked sum about at cae. In regards to your question, what makes fireys think theyre so special? Its the danger, its the chemicals, its the soot, the smells, the burns, the dermatitus, the receeding gumlines....danger money. Old pyros suffer these things, the chemicals are accumulative. One summer, after a pile of back-to-back gigs, i got what i can only describe as leprosy of the hands.... big time dermatitis.. despite my paraniod pre/post gig detox. I know an old school fire breather with teeth like corn-nobs, his gums are so far receeded. the money makes it ...marginally more worth it. the addictive pyromaniac masochistic adrenaline surge makes it totally worth it. we charge more to breathe than we do to twirl cos of said danger money. Pele's year in hell is a good indicator of how mad some of us are, and it's consequences. and if u want to see that kind of insane [censored], you gotta pay. Consider sword swallowers, how many of those are around? I only know of three aussies. Over the entire span of my circus life, i know of two friends who considered it and researched it. One piked when she was more informed of what was involved... The other went into training then gave up cos it is soooo nasty. the numbers ratio is representative of how goddamn silly and dangerous what you're doing is, and the payment scale reflects the same. actors? musicians? millions of em. nutbags? not too many.
cheers and my poor receeding gums
vyvyan


...Firebreathing? Magic is only part of it my friend, diet does the rest!

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:Written by: Stone

So what makes fire twirlers any more special than another performers out there?

Warning others before they get ripped is fair enough, but one could question the motives of anyone using guilt to prevent a person performing.




I honestly have no idea where the guilt trip thingo came from. confused
I am expressing my opinion, and becasue it seems to conflict with yours doesnt automatically mean that I am using guilt to stop someone preforming.
I find that quite funny.
If people are going to preform for nothing thats their call, I have an opinion in the way it effects themsleves and others.... Nothings certianly ever stopped you expressing your opinion before Stone.
Question my motives all you like. I will continue to struggle to raise the bar for hardworking performers anywhere.

I notice that you dont have anything to say about the points that were raised in regards to the preformers not recieving their promised money, and the way that you seem to believe that the fireys owe something to these dirt bike riders.

ummm can you point out the part where I bag other performers and put fireys on a pedastool? I would fight for anyone getting used unfairly. Whether they be balloon artists, sock puppiteers, mine artists, or clowns milking cows. It seems to me that you are not actually reading what I am saying Stone.
smile

I wanted to add this story from Bec in regards to the way that the demons lied to her

Written by:
Last year when they came to town again they called us directly (first time we had the chance to directly negotiate with them)... we were already booked up doing full paid gigs but I offered to source 8 semi-professional/hobbyists for a fee of $1000 per night (well below what I consider professional rates, but a lot more than nothing).
they refused the quote saying they didn't have the budget this was a week before the show.. and we really didn't care wither way..
The day before they rang me back and agreed to the fees of $2000+GST..

so they do have money to spend on fire performers if they can't get them for free... probably a lot more than that in fact.

I guess the more info we share, the more everyone understands what this "market" is that we are part of (whether we choose to enter the commercial side of our art or not) and what "value" we (as a community and individually) and our clients put on



amen to that I say. It prooves that they have the money and the inclination they just have no respect.


BIGGGG hugs to you vyv!!! hug hug hug I read some of your earlier posts also. When the demons come to perform at my place I will send you an invite!! biggrin hug


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:Written by:
Krews like Crusty are your customers even though they might not be at the high end of town. Perhaps when this is realised, a reasonable fee can be extracted.



Also the above post proves that "reasonable fees can be extracted" when you know your worth and request payment!


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:vyvyan, that was not what I meant by special. I was thinking more of the hard yards that go into getting to the top of any profession, like Moto GP bike racing for example. But its an excellent point. I had over looked the danger side of things. I thought the crustys were only after a big mass of twirlers. If they want or expect people to do breathing as well, then thats another story. Yes for sure, if they want to see crazy stuff then they gotta pay.



So you believe that doing the crusty gig will undermining the rest of the industry because they dont pay enough for even a base level performance, where budding fire twirlers can get a start. Its a real dilemma because then the crustys will get in people who only learnt about fire last week. And it puts locals out of work, denies them the experience and opportunities to make contacts for future jobs.



Which I suppose brings us back to a 'terms of agreement' you suggested. It might work on-line because people in Melb are feeling pressure from this board not to do the gig (Valura thats where the guilt comes from) but like me, they probably dont understand the big picture.



I hate regulations, but people really should have a ticket to perform with fire, and perhaps thats one way to go. Not sure, will have to think about it. Are there any parallels in circus?



So hows all the crazy stuff going? I thought there were only three sword swallowers in the world, the guy from the happies being the Australian. Toni, me and someothers were having a chat about breathing/transfers the other week at the eddy gardens. Then it clicked, and we all realised we had been taught by the same person smile I have this great memory of learning to breath in this seedy back ally in the Melb CDB, watching all these people in suits or high heels walk by. Its hard to explain, but the juxtaposition still makes me smile. Think you had to have been there biggrin



cheers



Valura, Bec, has a good point "guess the more info we share, the more everyone understands what this "market" is that we are part of (whether we choose to enter the commercial side of our art or not) and what "value" we (as a community and individually) and our clients put on"



But these issues go over a lot better when they don't sound like sour grapes.





angel2


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:rolleyes
Stone focus on the points being made instead of making it a personal "sour grapes" issue. I answer every point that you bring up and question, but you are yet to do that. Prehaps you can back up what your saying or questioning with a bit of evidence?


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Valura, thats unfair (and I was in a hurry -edit). Ive done my best to understand the problem with the crustys and answer you questions. Because, as will be pleased to know, the people in Melbourne are feeling the pressure and guilt being applied from people on this board, not to perform (and thats the second time Ive explained the guilt issue).



That's my only reason for reluctantly getting involved in the crusty discussions.



Apologies if you missed the payment bit - one free ticket to the crustys is worth eighty bucks. I cant confirm it, but I think there was also $50 vouchers as well.



Now, I can understand the danger issues and I have changed my opinion. After all, thats why we have discussions. There is no personal vendetta against you. Though, on reflection you do seem a bit defensive at times. (edit).



Re: payment Written by:
Also the above post proves that "reasonable fees can be extracted" when you know your worth and request payment!

and Becs Written by:


The day before they rang me back and agreed to the fees of $2000+GST. so they do have money to spend on fire performers if they can't get them for free... probably a lot more than that in fact.





I noted Becs story, it makes a point but proves nothing. I didnt comment on it because I have no idea of the details. It could have been some kind of bluff or even something as daft as poor organisation by the crustys.



Sure, Ill back up your interpretation of what I said. Yes for sure, the attitude of the spinners can results in the non-payment or low payments from the demons and other crews.



One particular attitude that stands out is this know your worth and request payment While I think all you mean is a "fair days pay for a fair days pay". This attitude could easily come across as arrogance, as in expecting the mountain to come to you.



I think negotiation involves a lot more than just sitting on your bum, chanting know your worth and request payment all day. I would suggest that reasonable fees can be expected when people understand their clients needs, show them respect, learn negotiation skills and stop pulling (oops) stunts like spaming the crustys with stupid requests.



The bit on sour grapes was fair comment, like you said Written by:
yeah I am bitter about the demons because..

So you do seem to have a personal vendetta going against the crustys.



Bottom line: I think there is a need for more professionalism in negotiations, by some of us at least, me included.



a few edits for peace



cheers smile













deadrat wink

EDITED_BY: Stone (1110516125)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:Written by:
Because, as will be pleased to know, the people in Melbourne are feeling the pressure and guilt being applied from people on this board, not to perform (and thats the second time Ive explained the guilt issue).


Stone isnt it ironic that you point out that you are not personally attacking me, yet state that I will be pleased to know that people are feeling guilty? Seems pretty harsh to me.

If people are feeling guilty that is their own choice and I will not accept responsibility for the way that they are feeling, and nobody else on this site has to either. They choose what to feel. I am simply stating my opinion, as are many others on the other thread. I am not the only one who chose to boycott the demons, so I suppose that all the other performers who chose not to preform and spoke out about the way they were treated have sour grapes also? I AM bitter about the way that they treat people and I feel that THEY are the ones who need to have more professinaliaim when completing business dealings, but do not have a "personal vendetta agaisnt them"

Honestly the comment about expecting to be paid for your performance coming across as arrogance, is so far off Im not even going to go there.

Do you not request to be paid for a days work?

Becs story prooves that she knew the worth of her performers and asked for payment accordingly. The demons spin the same story every year about having "no budget" and being "last minute" to get free performers. They have done this for the last 4 years that I know of. So I dont believe for one moment that they are "slack at arranging, or some kind of bluff"
Why do they even need to bluff? Espically if they have every intention of paying the performers *snort* rolleyes

Written by:
Yes for sure, the attitude of the spinners can results in the non-payment or low payments from the demons and other crews.



oh my! frown The attitudes of the spinners have nothing to do with the demons choosing not to pay people. the spinners go, and give up their free time and talent to pad out the show of the demons. The demons dont pay them and then make money off the footage of the spinners by putting them in the DVDs. What do the spinners get for their time and effort? nada.
I believe that the spinners have a pretty great attitude in regards to this, and from my observations have never done anything to alienate the demons, prehaps other than asking to be paid for a gig.

so what bought the demons attitude about?

I believe we are going to have to disagree here Stone and leave it at that because I am not prepared to continue to point out the same things over and over again. espically when you are trying to make me feel bad for stating my opinion becasue "others are feeling guilty"


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Sparkfire
Fire coach - Cirque du Soleil
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 10th Dec 2001
Total posts: 89
Posted:As a corporation the entity 'Crusty Demons' will do anything in it's power to maximise profits. Thats to be expected.

The problem I have is that roping in amateurs to do a show can leave some pretty important corners cut.
Last year there were multiple ground based pyrotechnics going off during the fire performances. NEXT to where people were twirling. No safety perimeters. No briefing in regards to them.

From what I could see there was a massive lack of communication between the fire show organiser and the crusty show coordinators. There was no run through; I only managed to preview the performance space by walking through security, out and around the arena myself pre show. I then let everyone else know the layout.

I did the show for footage. I got shafted on that. I continued to contact the Crusties Oz contact for 8 months after the show and they finally agreed to edit some footage together for me and send it down. Of course it was entirely the wrong footage, a whole two minutes. Gave up at that point. C'est la vie.

If anyone does do it this year please read the indemnity they ask you to sign. It gives up all rights of personal safety.
Also bring your own wet towel & fuel squeeze off towel. Watch out for the pyros.

I agree with some of Valura's points. I make my living off fire performance. I would never ask someone to not enjoy using this art in front of a crowd. But if you even attempt to portray yourself as a professional for hire you have to follow some basics or your just damaging the industry.

- Organise! Preview the site. Maintain strict spacing requirements and area hazard management (curtains, dusty rafters, leads & cords on stage etc.) If the management has not fulfilled your requirements do not do the show. Making your clients aware in advance that you will charge a full fee will stop you feeling pressured to perform in unsafe conditions.

- Bring extra safety gear. Fire blankets for looks. Multiple wet towels for use. At the very least have a 1kg or two .5kg extinguishers. The .5kg ABEF extinguishers can be picked up at a good hardware store for under $30

- For yourself and your audience never use anything but SolTK or Firewater.

- The stage is no place for experimentation or pushing the edge. Only do what you have down. Keep it solid, keep your head. A spotless show of less variety looks better to a punter than trying a throw and not landing it. Also don't twirl yourself to exhaustion. It's easy to expend a lot of energy trying to put a piece of equipment out onstage. Do the two minutes that it's tight and your fresh then wet towel it. Don't tell your client you can do a 15min show without 'really' thinking about how long 15mins is.

- Many organisers and promoters make their living with words. Don't buy their bullshit or hazy confirmations. Stand your ground. Make it clear from the beginning what you provide and what you require.

- Get insurance. But only if you've done the above. One accident drives up everyone's premium dramatically.

Now if you've done all that how much do you charge? Look at the time, energy and money you've spent. I wouldn't recommend this as a career option. The financial payback isn't worth it. But if you're going to charge money and call yourself professional (not talking bout a friends party for $50 here) do it right & charge accordingly.

There are plenty more safety tips I could blab on about (get retardant, check performance surface traction when coated in fuel, wet your hair down, Silverzine etc.) but that's all learning curve stuff & off topic.

Back to the Crusties show. They can afford professionals. The corporation has found a cheaper way that works in most cities worldwide. They don't care if the fire shows fantastic or lame, it's just filler for a bike to jump over.
If everyone asked to participate demanded at least decent organisation for their own personal safety and comfort they would have no choice but to hire a professional fire performance coordinator (who would supply all fuel and safety gear, plans, first aid etc.) and be paid accordingly.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Valura,



Ill attempt to clarify some of my comments.



Written by:
will be pleased to know that people are feeling guilty?





Perhaps I should have made it clearer, because you completely misunderstood that statement. It was actually meant to be positive. In that people are hearing what you (and others) are saying about the crustys. Which is good? Yes.



So guilt" for the THIRD time



Perhaps guilt was a poor choice of words and pressure might have been a better word to use. We are hearing you (and others) saying boycott the crustys. However, not everyone is on Hop, and some of us are unsure of the reasons behind the boycott. Well, other than vague tales about someone getting ripped-off. But there must be more to the boycott than getting rippedoff.



Getting ripped-off is a business risk, and the Melbourne people were prepared to take that chance. But then, because we have a conscience, we start to feel guilty for letting out brothers and sisters down, even though we are under the impression that they are just having a whinge.



Perhaps I was being nave with some of my earlier comments. But we have established that there is a lot more to this situation. And we are now have some excellent ideas about how we can gain solidarity and improve our negotiating position.



Written by:
I will not accept responsibility for the way that they are feeling, and nobody else on this site has to either.

Written by:
I am simply stating my opinion.





Well, what was you aim then? Would you accept responsibility when someone pms you thanking you for a great post?



The message coming from the crusty threads (there are a few) is being heard. All Im doing is seeking clarification. If you are not prepared to accept the consequences for dissn someone (no matter how deserving) in this or any other situation that might occur. Then perhaps u shoul think before u post, then.





Written by:
I am not the only one who chose to boycott the demons, so I suppose that all the other performers who chose not to preform and spoke out about the way they were treated have sour grapes also?





You are certainly the one up there on your :sopabox:



Written by:
I AM bitter about the way that they treat people and I feel that THEY are the ones who need to have more professinaliaim when completing business dealings, but do not have a "personal vendetta against them"

No?



I think you keep missing the point Im trying to make here. Just because other businesses act unprofessionally, is not an excuse for us to be unprofessional. We need to rise above it, work around it or forget it. Not drop down to their level. Does that make sense?



I agree, Bec makes some excellent points: they do have money to spend on fire performers if they can't get them for free... probably a lot more than that in fact. I guess the more info we share, the more everyone understands what this "market" is that we are part of (whether we choose to enter the commercial side of our art or not) and what "value" we (as a community and individually) and our clients put on

and she got two grand out of them.



The crustys have money, so its really just a matter of tapping into the milchcow. Though in this situation, it may not be worth the effort.



Written by:
The attitudes of the spinners have nothing to do with the demons choosing not to pay





That was (or was meant be) a general comment about the crustys and others companies. I think some of the misunderstanding comes from the fact that some of us are looking at all this as performers, and not a business peoples. In Becs words ..understands what this "market" is that we are part of Thats all Im suggesting by my comments. Apologies if that was not clear.



Written by:
Do you not request to be paid for a days work?





Sure, but that hasnt prevented me from getting ripped-off. And I think its unproductive to keep whinging about it. By that, Im suggesting to use it experience constructively. Move on smile



Written by:
so what bought the demons attitude about?





So are you hinting that there was a previous dispute, and this story is more complicated that we have been led to believe? Or is this more?



I sincerely apologise if I have made you feel bad, that was never the intention. But I dont think I have done anything more insulting than disagree with you or suggest there may be better ways to handle this, and future situations.















Ratty;)


EDITED_BY: Stone (1110606013)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:stone I dont apprectiate you swearing at me.

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fair enough gone

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:Sorted?

Can anything further be achieved by continuing to discuss this issue at the moment? If yes, then please do so objectively. If not, then let's take this dead horse off its A-frame.


HoP Posting Guidelines
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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vyvyan
vyvyan

journeyman
Location: tell me when you find me
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 92
Posted:yikes, dudes.
am i allowed to reply after a moderator? its non-inflammatory i promise. dan the man! [censored] its good to hear from you. i hope you are doing well and caning it since i saw you last at that pokey festival where i was a magician's assistant, haha. stone, crusties is not a do-or-die leap into pyro stardom for aspiring fireys. we cut our teeth in the clubs. as do the circus kids. any agent worth their salt knows what crusties do, and subsequently what they are worth (sfa) which is what we all have figured out and been tetchy to eachother in the process. doof gigs are in the same genre. fireys do have a ticket to perform- and here i go out on a limb with faith in the judgement of those at Duck for Cover- which is peer referred membership in a group insurance policy. This out-on-a-limb-ness caused abit of tension when they first started gunning to recruit pyros a few years ago, but their has been no dramas. Seedy allies- i love that [censored]! it rocks my world! some of my finest memories are of making those toorak bimbos raise their eyebrows as they sashayed on their manilo blahniks into that a-list bar we were practicing infront of ...so fine! and to get to be a freak and do freaky odd fire [censored] infront of them at corporate ooh-la-la gigs and get paid for it is just sooooo satisfying to my anti-social misanthrope tendencies. anyways... i think we have all run out of steam. take care people, do what thou wilt, as long as it harm none. in the scale of things, crusties [censored] harms none. it aint the be-all. just have fun.

cheers and sooty fingres

vyvyaaaaan


...Firebreathing? Magic is only part of it my friend, diet does the rest!

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vyvyan
vyvyan

journeyman
Location: tell me when you find me
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 92
Posted:i cant believe it censors [censored]. thats funny! hmmm how about bollox?

...Firebreathing? Magic is only part of it my friend, diet does the rest!

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vyvyan
vyvyan

journeyman
Location: tell me when you find me
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 92
Posted:hahaaaaaa! got it!

...Firebreathing? Magic is only part of it my friend, diet does the rest!

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Jai - Staff
Jai - Staff

member
Location: Gold Coast
Member Since: 27th Oct 2004
Total posts: 85
Posted:wow, making this thread was like adding fire with black powder!!! Kaboom!!! soz about starting this thread pplz.

I can't wait to die, I'm going to Hell. They have fire down there!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Valura, apologies for hurting your feelings with my careless words. They came from hasty thoughts; that were never meant for posting. You raise some important points, but I misunderstood what you were saying. Anyhow, nothing less than Top Billing for Fire Performers.

Yo Jai, ka-boom! alright. Dont blame yourself. This has been a volatile issue for a while now. Hopefully, this time when the dust settles we will all realise that we have each gained something valuable out of the explosion (perhaps even a bit of self-realisation for some of us wink)

vyvyan, I can almost picture those a-list bars and corporate gigs biggrin Thanks for sharing you wisdom and adding your strength to the discussion. I like your words, and to paraphrase them (if I may). Guys, think before you take that big do-or-die leap into pyro stardom.




Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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