Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:From CNN.com:

Same-sex marriage Senate battle over, war is not
GOP leaders fail to get enough votes to advance measure



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Efforts to pass a constitutional amendment that would effectively ban same-sex marriage failed in the Senate Wednesday afternoon, but supporters vowed to keep fighting for the measure.

"Ultimately, we will win this fight," said Republican Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas. "Marriage is the union of a man and a woman."

The proposed amendment was killed for this session after a procedural vote to move the measure to the Senate floor failed 48-50, or 12 votes shy of the 60 required by Senate rules.

Six Republicans -- including Sen. John McCain of Arizona -- joined 43 Democrats and one independent to defeat the measure. Three Democrats and 45 Republicans voted for it.

Republicans had expected to muster the votes needed to at least advance the measure, if not the 67 required to pass it. They also expected to force the presumptive Democratic presidential ticket -- Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts and Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina -- to vote against it.

A constitutional amendment requires a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress to pass. Then the proposal would need the approval of three-fourths of the state legislatures to be ratified.

Opponents denounced the failed effort as a "political tool" during an election year.

"Today, we saw President Bush and the Republican leadership attempt to divide America and it backfired," said Cheryl Jacques, president of the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights organization. "We saw the politics of distraction fail and fail handily."

Kerry was in Boston Wednesday and did not vote, but he expressed opposition in a written statement.

"Throughout history, amending our Constitution -- the foundation of the nation's values and ideals -- has been serious business," he said.

"However, even Republicans concede that this amendment is being offered only for political gains. The unfortunate result is that the important work of the American people -- funding our homeland security needs, creating new and better jobs, and raising the minimum wage -- is not getting done," Kerry said.

At a campaign rally in Iowa, Edwards noted that Republicans joined the Democratic leadership in rejecting the amendment.

"The president and the vice president tried to use our Constitution and the amendment of that Constitution as a political tool, and the United States Senate today said, 'No, we will not accept it,' " Kerry said.

Democratic Sen. Tom Daschle of South Dakota, the minority leader, echoed Kerry's sentiments.

"In 217 years, we've only amended that sacred document 17 times. There have been 11,000 separate attempts," Daschle said.

Social conservatives have been pushing hard for the measure since May, when the highest court in Massachusetts legalized same-sex marriages in the Bay State.

Bush has championed the amendment and said it is necessary to defend the institution of marriage from "activist judges."

That view was expressed by Sen. Bill Frist of Tennessee during debate.

"It has become clear to legal scholars ... that same-sex marriage will be exported to all 50 states," said the majority leader.

"Will activist judges not elected by the American people destroy the institution of marriage, or will the people protect marriage as the best way to raise children? My vote is with the people," Frist said.

Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah said the amendment would simply preserve a fundamental institution "that a few unelected judges are trying to radically change." It's not a question of discrimination against gays, he said.

"Nobody wants to discriminate against gays. We, simply put, want to preserve traditional marriage. Gays have a right to live the way they want, but they should not have the right to change the definition of traditional marriage," Hatch said.

The amendment, as originally proposed by Republican Sen. Wayne Allard of Colorado, would add these two sentences to the Constitution:

"Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman."

Some Republicans objected to the second sentence, saying it was so ambiguous that it also could prevent states from allowing gays and lesbians to join in civil unions.

McCain broke forcefully with Bush and the Senate GOP leadership Tuesday evening over the issue, taking to the Senate floor to call such an amendment unnecessary -- and un-Republican.

McCain said the amendment "will not be adopted by Congress this year, nor next year, nor any time soon until a substantial majority of Americans are persuaded that such a consequential action is as vitally important and necessary as the proponents feel it is today." (Full story)


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:yes i read that earlier. i'm so happy!!!! smile

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I'm still waiting for someone...anyone...to explain to me exactly how gay marriage = end of civilization.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:If you havent already, watch the South Park episode about metrosexuals for your answer smile

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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musashii
musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 14th Dec 2002
Total posts: 1148
Posted:from the fundamentalist right, slippery slope my friend, slippery slope wink

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Puk
Puk

Sweet talented nutter
Location: Brisbane Oz
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2002
Total posts: 2615
Posted:i Don't understand what is a big deal to people for gay's to be married . After all we are all just people that should have the same rights .

where is that consitution ?.


that shrewd and knavish sprite

Called Robin Good Fellow ; are you not he that is frighten of the maidens of the villagery - fairy

I am the merry wander of the night -puk

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musashii
musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 14th Dec 2002
Total posts: 1148
Posted:eh, to me, no big deal at all(I happen to embrace diversity, it's one of the most compelling things in the world to me, like living in a big city and meeting more walks of life than you can comprehend, like a chaos of culture), but see, like it or not, I think that the (voting) majority, and yes there's a big difference as to what will turn a representatives head faster, likes the cold, shallow(read insulating) status quo, hypocritical tho it may be of the ideals that the constitution was founded on. Where does it leave us? In the same imperfect instance of any idealistic or perfect conceptualization of a government fouled by the hands of man. heh wink

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well, I think that someone, maybe it was Xopher, gave me a good smack over the head with this one when he asked me why incest shouldn't be legal...or polygamy for that matter.

I think I was finally forced to concede that incest between two related CONSENTING ADULTS should be legal...but only if the union can not possibly result in a child (due to the massively increased risk of genetic diseases). Thus, only gay incest should be legal. ubblol

My argument against polygamy is that the rules get very complex (as far as who is actually married to whom and who gets to make what decisions in an emergency, etc.). So I would be against having legal recognition of such unions.

But it did force me to evaluate my ingrained beliefs. I think that a lot of people just haven't thought about this one critically, and they're just reacting with their guts.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:The arguments against same-sex marriage make no sense at all. There's not a single one that can withstand the simplest cloth-eared logic.

"Change the institution of marriage," my ass. We want it, and we want it just the same way it's always been. Orrin Hatch and similar buttwipes think it's no good unless it's only for them. And that's all they have.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Orrin Hatch and Rick Santorum et al simply think it's wrong. But as to why?

Well, because they feel it's morally wrong. Now, if you were to ask one of them to critically analyze why they feel that way, you'd eventually get down to the Bible. And that's all well and good. But the Bible doesn't run the country.

And that's where my problem is.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"

But the Bible doesn't run the country.



Ha! biggrin

Oh wait, you were being serious? You don't think the bible runs the country?

I'm sitting here with a small mound of British currency and I don't see the word "God" on it once. Hrmm... smile


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:i seem to remember some comedian said 2 somethings that i remebers... it was some afro american with a big mouth - mb that dude off rush hour? cant remember...

anyway. teh first thing he was talking about was GW bush... how hes so ambigious about everything.... free trade... war in iraq etc he's always avoiding answers... to everything single issue he has no specific response past his speech writers.... then up to gay marriage - which is just wrong full stop.

this comedian then finished with a great quote - after bitching about his wife for 10 minutes.. "i think that gays should be allowed to be married - i think that they should be allowed to be as miserable as the rest of us"


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Chris Rock.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:It would increase the tax revenue base. Since most same-sex couples are two-income households (I know of at least one exception), they'd pay the Marriage Penalty.

But these days the Democrats are the party of States Rights and Fiscal Responsibility, isn't that funny? That's because those are genuine conservative values, and the Democrats are the conservative party in America today. The Republicans are the radical right-wing, and liberalism is effectively dead, at least in Washington.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:There was a great editorial in today's NYTimes. Basically the thrust of it was that the GOP did this knowing, expecting, and hoping for it to fail.

Here's why. It gets front-page coverage. They get to scream that a few "Liberal Elite" activist judges and a bunch of "Liberal Elite" Democrats are trying to destroy society as we know it.

And "we normal, red-blooded American folks" are losing the fight to keep our society in order! These evil Commies are trying to destroy our society with some bizarre and perverted social experiment! Horrors!

And, by gosh, if you want to keep America for Americans, yup, we normal, meat-eating, red-blooded, jeans-wearing, football-watching, God-fearing folk...then you'd better vote Republican. And we Republicans will watch over you while we completely gut your wages, your health care, your education, your environment, and your civil rights, and hand all the profits to our corporate friends.

It's sad when being a slightly left-sided centrist like me is viewed as being a radical.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:as Jon Stewart so eloquently put it:

to pass an amendment banning gay marriage, 2/3 of the senat & 3/4 of the states would have to ratify an amendment saying that : a heterosexual couple is better than a single heterosexual parent which is better than a gay couple which is equal to a guy screwing a box turtle


for those that are wondering, the bit about the turtle was taken from a Republican from Texas talking about if a guy wanted to marry a box turtle


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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psycho44
psycho44

member

Member Since: 30th Jan 2004
Total posts: 56
Posted:You say that the bible doesn't run the country, but our country was founded on the principles of the bible. Even the non-believers thought that this was a good way to run things.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Actually, it was founded on the principles of the Q'uran.

Fine me one principal that our country was founded on that's Biblical that's not Q'uranic.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:Written by: There is no 'e' in 'Lightning'


Here's why. It gets front-page coverage. They get to scream that a few "Liberal Elite" activist judges and a bunch of "Liberal Elite" Democrats are trying to destroy society as we know it.





The funny thing about the Republicans labeling the judges "activist judges?" Those judges in Mass. were nominated BY REPUBLICANS!!! Ironic, isn't it? biggrin They don't tell you that little, dirty secret.

And Pshyco44, even if the USA was founded upon principles from the Bible, one guaranteed right under the Constitution and Bill of Rights is FREEDOM OF RELIGION....which means not everyone HAS to believe in the Bible...and they have every right not to.

To me, that's the biggest CHINK in the Republican argument against gay marriage since it's based on "morality" which ties into religion. There are people in this country who are not Christian, who's religion doesn't care if two people of the same sex want to get married. What about THEIR rights?

At the end of the day, homosexuals in the USA want equal rights, not special rights, but equal rights. The FMA would guarantee that every homosexual in this country would be a second class citizen in that we would be denied the same rights and privileges as our heterosexual counterparts when we enter a live long relationship.

The so called moral majority blast homosexuals for being promiscuous and destroying what is the American family, but so many of us are not promiscuous and WANT to build an American family. How many straight peopel are equally promiscuous? How is same sex marriage more of a threat to the institution of marriage than divorce of heterosexual couples?

I have yet to hear one valid argument as to why I shouldn't have the same rights as every "red blooded, heterosexual" person in this country is guaranteed. Until I do, I will fight for equality.

*getting off her soap box*


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Woah, SpitFire, since when did morality and religion necessarily need each-other?

I have morals, values, and ethics. But I'm an athiest.

My general life philosophy is summed up by two phrases:
"First, do no harm." -Hippocrates
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." -Hillel


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:That's the thing, though, Lightning....what I hear the GOP calling themselves is the "moral majority" because of their beliefs.

I've had Christians tell me I have no morals because I am a lesbian. It's obviously crap, as I too have morals values and ethics. I don't tie the two together, but those pushing so hard against same sex marriage do.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:America is already divided over the issue of gay marrage.

I say equal rights for civil unions, but no to gay marrage.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:And the difference between a civil union and a marriage is what?

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Marriage is religious in nature, a civil union though it can be, isnt.

It is typically for those who want to be wed without the religious part, why make a promise to God, if you don't believe in Him?


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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:In your opinion, Burz. We've had this discussion before.

In the eyes of the Government, there is such a thing as civil marriage. The government only cares about the marriage license, which is NOT a religious document, but a civil one. In the US, you don't even have to get married by a minister or representative of the Church...you can get married by a judge....a CIVIC marriage, not a religious one.

People who get married without the religious part enter into a marriage contract with one another in the eyes of the government, just as those who do have a religious ceremony. It is not called a civil union, but a marriage.

Mand and I getting married would do less harm to the traditional family than divorce would.

All we want is equality under the law. Civil unions do not come with all the rights and privileges marriage comes with, and no one can guarantee that civil unions will grant equal rights.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:Also, a marriage by any other name is NOT a marriage, because there are laws (and hospital regulations, and company policies et cetera ad nauseam) that are written with words like 'spouse' and the word 'marriage' (or 'married' etc) in them; calling same-sex marriages by any other name would just give people an excuse to discriminate.

I've said it before: I'm entirely against the state REQUIRING any religious denomination to sanction same-sex marriage. It's the legal status I want. It is (and must be, in a society on record as valuing the separation of Church and State, which the US is) up to each religious group, church, denomination, meeting, or ethical culture society to decide. Members can lobby within their own organization, or just get a civil marriage.

As for me, my religion makes no distinction. Handfastings are done for people of parallel or polar gender, without distinction. One reason I picked this religion in the first place.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:I have no problem with the leagle status of homosexuals, I know I have said that before.

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Dr_Molly
Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home
Member Since: 4th May 2004
Total posts: 2354
Posted:Written by: NYC

I'm sitting here with a small mound of British currency and I don't see the word "God" on it once. Hrmm... smile



look again
the d in d.g. regina is for dei
it's written in full on the larger coins

but we have happily agnostic notage smile


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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:Dei Gratia Regina, By the Grace of God Queen? And she's "Defender of the Faith," among other titles...

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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