Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Question about the Burning Man Fire Spinning Routine...

Login/Join to Participate

MillenniuMMillenniuMPLATINUM Member
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA


Posted:
I'm spinning fire at this year's Burning Man as part of the Conclave. I recently read up on the routine, VERY simple stuff, hardest thing being a Mexican Wave really. The more I read, the more I cringed and hated the entire concept and wanted to quit and yell at everyone who is a part of it.

I have multiple problems with it, the biggest being the utter lack of respect for poi that flows. The "Home Position", or what you do between 8 counts of "tricks" is just regular old spinning at your sides. Boring, easy, but whatever... I would have suggested a 3 beat weave, but I guess that is too hard of a home position for most people. Part of the way through the routine, they ask all spinners to go from spinning at your sides, to butterfly (Without a stall/90 degree turn/wrap, just force it in to it). I have a problem with poi that forces plane changes, and teaching hundreds if not thousands of poi spinners that a coreographed routine should practice things such as that makes me cringe a bit. It continues later with what is deemed the "technical" part of the performance, which includes "Speedies", better known as "Do the 3 beat weave as fast as you can". Argh.

I really don't mind that the performance is so simplistic. I think the true crime here is that A) They are teaching horrible poi basics to inexperienced spinners, such as plane breaks, and B) They are teaching people that "Fast = Good" and "Fast = Technical". With so many spinners in such a great setting with such a receptive audience, so much more could have been done. Footwork maybe? A multitude of toys? More than "Move A for 8 beats, Move B for 8 beats, Move C for 8 beats"? I'm on the verge of quitting, but everytime I try to voice my opinion, everyone just counts me off as a technical poi snob and continues with their speedies.

Am I justified in my anger, or am I just being anal about what I think poi is about? I honestly don't know who is in the right here.

MikeIconMikeIconGOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA


Posted:
First piece of advice that even I know and I never went to burning man...

Dont spin the conclave.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me


RevRevBRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA


Posted:
I've never seen the conclave.. so I wouldn't be able to make an informed decision, but it sounds to me like a crock.. I understand your concern.. and would be voicing similar opinions.. but I wasn't asked to spin.. so you know maybe what I think doesnt matter..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


NYCNYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
There's a video.

Download the video.

I won't be going. And have mixed feelings on an "Organized Burningman Routine"... Perhaps everyone would look better if they hit up the Gap and got some matching Khakis and Pocket-T shirts also. wink

[Translation from NYCsarcasm: "Isn't burningman about individualistic and free artistic expression and quite the opposite from conformity?"]

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


spiralxspiralxveteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK


Posted:
Wow, that does sound pretty rubbish. I'm also not a fan of the whole "the faster you spin the better you are" school of poi frown

"Moo," said the happy cow.


Dragon7Dragon7GOLD Member
addict
625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand


Posted:
Written by:

"the faster you spin the better you are"


spiralx
If u were talking about continious 3bt weave id agree, but if your talking 5bt btb, wraping weaves into totally impossible and random tricks, id have to side with the speed. Speed + insane moves = extreme skill.


And OMG i actually agree with nyc...
Written by:

"Isn't burningman about individualistic and free artistic expression and quite the opposite from conformity?"]



Iv not been there yet wink but that is exactly what I would expect. Although dreams are free and its never as good as you dreamed. ubbidea

In saying that, id go and do the stoopid gig just to be there. Im sure u will have fun, and its always wicked to meet cool new people, just come's down to what you would sacrfice and how much you really want to be there. juggle weavesmiley

MrConfusedMrConfusedBRONZE Member
addict
529 posts
Location: I wish I knew, United Kingdom


Posted:
Ugh. Side spinning? 8 continuous beats of one move? Forced plane breaks? Speed = technical?
Voice your anger. If that's the way the performance is going to be, I might have to look in the other direction.

J

If you're not confused, you're not thinking about things hard enough.


MillenniuMMillenniuMPLATINUM Member
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA


Posted:
Written by: ICoN


First piece of advice that even I know and I never went to burning man...

Dont spin the conclave.




I'd agree with you, if it weren't for the $145 ticket I get, rather than the $250-300 that I'd normally pay. Plus, I get to meet cool people.

I did a bit more wanking at the most recent gathering, we were all just hanging out and practicing fire eating rather than spinning the routine and it gave me a chance to really talk to some people about what made me angry about it. NYC, thank you for your opinion, I almost directly quoted you when I was saying stuff about how this shouldn't be strict "Do HOP move 11 for 8 beats" BS. Nothing I can do at this point, except maybe ask to coreograph next year's routine?

MikeIconMikeIconGOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA


Posted:
Written by:

I'd agree with you, if it weren't for the $145 ticket I get, rather than the $250-300 that I'd normally pay. Plus, I get to meet cool people.



Im sure the people who spin the conclave dont leave right after. You could always meet up with them afterwards. Also, if youre going to burning man, chances are youre gonna be spending a decent chunk of change to begin with, whats another 100 gonna do? smile

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me


GoodSILVER Member
member
55 posts
Location: a mountaintop in Colorado, USA


Posted:
I saw the video, and it sure does look simple. That said, it may be more inviting to beginning spinners, and I think the main thing of interest will be the sheer number of people spinning the same moves at once. I guess there will be several hundred, even a thousand! And the moves are about foolproof, so I guess everyone will be able to keep together OK. The hardest part for me at Burning Man is showing up in a particular place at a particular time!... I just got a regular ticket so I don't have to commit. ubbidea

take the schneak-tip


MikeIconMikeIconGOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA


Posted:
Anyone ever see the episode of south park where all the schools came together and played the recorder together?

Maybe if someone edits the routine plan and throws an air wrap in there, all of burning man will crap their pants.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me


CodyCodySILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA


Posted:
Cody to the defence and ready to be pummeled eek

Man has this whole "burn before the man" thing gotten out of hand, it gets worse every year. Millennium your concerns are founded but I think you are missing the point. The choriographed thing is an experiment. In years past it has been about a group if individuals all doing their own thing summing up to 625 fireball throwup to the crowd. Which is fine. Since burningman is one of the largest gatherings of fire spinners, Crimson wanted to tap into the power of an orchestra. Yes there is conformity and teamwork. Both of which are part of community which is what Bruningman is about ( to answer NYC).
So Milennium if you wanted to choreograph 625 fire spinners all with different tallents and styles what would you have them do? I feel they are all so diverse that the only thing they have in common is the basics. You have a problem forcing in and out of a plane, I thrive off it. Even as simple as the choreography is it is still a challenge to you as it is for me.

The idea behind the chroiography is to have everyone moving at the exact time to the same beet. At 625 strong we could all just do the damn forward spin the whole time and the crowd will really enjoy it.

It's really about the group effort for this performance. If that does not work for you, then don't do it. I personally like the small burns in the middle of the playa with a few friends and a small audience, but I will participate in the team effort to make the large impact, kind of like the wave at a sporting event.

Cheers
.

Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada


RevRevBRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA


Posted:
yes but jsut because onlookers are amazed by 625 people spinning at their sides does that make it proper art?? I mean when van gogh was painting did he go out and ask the world what they thought he should paint a picture of before he did it?



I understand that people are coiming from diverse backgroudns, btu being as how you are part of the burnign man show and seeing as how burning man is such a big and popular event... why have such rudimentary and even poor rudimentary style? I'm not knocking the whole choreaographed routine, but I think "do the weave really fast" and "spin at your sides for 8 beats." is for people that jsut learned.. and if newbies are what you want spinning your show then again I could udnerstand... but is this kiddie hour or is this one of the biuggest fire spinning events? I understand people come from different backgrounds but as has been discussed at length in numerous places, there aren't many (if any ) mvoes that are terriby complicated.. most all of them are just some combination of basics (by that I mean not harder then the basics that they are built from)..



don't get me wrong.. I'm not trying to be egotistical by far.. I just know that I''ve been teaching this one guy for two months now.. and even he can do more then all of this... which again.. isn't about caliber of the spinners.. so much as the caliber of the presentation..



edit: maybe this isnt community but I think it would be a lot cooler to have say 600 doing some routine slightly harder then this and say 25 doing something else (maybe a seperate routine..) they will all be on the same beat..and you can even have the routines overlap in some places.. that way you get community and flavor.. that's just me..
EDITED_BY: Rev (1088000719)

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


KnoxiousGOLD Member
.
420 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by:

I did a bit more wanking at the most recent gathering


eek ubblol

...please tell me that's a typo!

POV form someone who deals with group choreo (although Fatcat has more experience with the larger group choreo's): As soon as you get into footwork or more tech tricks, it becomes REALLY hard and requires a great deal of practice to get spinners in synch.
I shudder to think at the prospect of seriously choreo-ing large/massive groups of unrelated spinners. That is a hardcore mission...so that's why it HAS to be simple.
You'd be surprised though: a group of peeople doing anything in synch looks cool. It really does. It'll be so much easier to look cool doing simple moves together that to all be trying to do harder stuff and all being out of time with each other.
Yes 8 counts is boring, but if you're doing your routine to any type of techno/4/4beat music then (providing you all start on the 1 and can count musci together) all your changes will undoubtably hit on a music change and make it look much more synchro. The thought of 100's of spinner going fomr a really slow count to blazingly fast, en mass, might actually look quite cool!
DOn't forget that your average punter hasn't got a bloody clue. They'll more than likey be off their heads and remember the moment as an amazing feat of human creation wink
If you're really against it...set your own show up and do it your way! Then you'll be truely happy and you can go as tech/dance as you like.
make it count
Dave

rbmnycrbmnycBRONZE Member
lurker
194 posts
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA


Posted:
This is a very heated issue. Here's my take on teh situation - which is basically exactly the same as Cody's - but I wanted him to know that someone was backing him up. Myself, I have never, and don't wish to, burn in the Conclave before the man .... I've got 7 other days and lots of other opportunities where it's not as hot and not as crowded. I'd rather sit back and watch others at that time. So this personal preference has sheilded me from the debate about the routine for the most part.

That said, I think it's an admirable attempt that Crimson Rose is making - trying to herd 625 cats to do the same thing - and only for about ten minutes, anyway. There still will be plenty of time for the people who want to show their stuff to do it after the ten minute routine thing. She's trying something new. This is Burning Man. Burning Man is NOT just "about individualistic and free artistic expression and quite the opposite from conformity." It is also about community. In this case, a community of fire spinners coming together for just ten minutes to make something that might be spectactular. Individual and free expression is welcomed and cheered at Burning Man ... but so is the output of 625 people working together towards a common cause to produce something that no one individual could do alone. I applaud them for it. In fact, I think I'm going to do it, despite the fact that I don't like spinning in the conclave, in order to support the efforts.

Go ahead - you can all continue to rant about how the routine is "beneath you" or you don't want to do it or whatever ..... but I think it will be amazing to see that many people spinning in time if it can be pulled off.

And, just so you don't think I'm just a BM organizer or something, I do think it sucks that they left the staffers out of the routine .... and I'm sure there's a lesson in that one, but for now, can't we try to be positive and wish everyone who's interested in contributing well.

If the ONLY reason you are going to learn the routine, and spin it with a grimace on your face (or worse yet, get in there and NOT do it) in order to save yourself a few dollars, you are TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT.

GidgGidgBRONZE Member
Super Gidg!!!!
8,506 posts
Location: Portland Oregon USA


Posted:
Mill, don't look at this as being something that is squashing your creativity or not using you talents to the best of your ability. Think of it as a challenge of keeping your spin together will all of the other spinners.

Speaking from experience, do you know how hard it is do get 20 people to spin at the same exact speed and have the poi hit the same arch point? I think it is very ambitious trying to get a routine for over 600 people, even if it is simple.

But remember, there is a whole week of spinning. You'll have other times to show your creativity.

hug hug wave wave

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is NOT.
Proud member of the HoP DPS.
Sanity is a highly overrated state of mind.
I'm normal ... it's everyone else that's crazy.

Gidg


PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
jeeze dude - Id spin *just* side circles for 10mins to get a US$70 reduction in ticket price...wots this complaining stuff? Burning Man isnt what you will expect it to be so let go of your expectations.

(Its a time you wont forget - thats for sure)

smile

Josh

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


vanizevanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
can't you get the reduced price tickets anyway if you buy them early enough?



used to be that volunteers (of any sort except DPW) never got any ticket discounts or freebees at burningman. has that changed? confused



BTW, you will never see me burning inside the circle at the burn - way too much hassle involved, and I want to enjoy the burn. hell, burningman is like 2 months away, and it already has millinium iber uptight.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


MillenniuMMillenniuMPLATINUM Member
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA


Posted:
Written by:

jeeze dude - Id spin *just* side circles for 10mins to get a US$70 reduction in ticket price...wots this complaining stuff?




I'm not trying to complain. Burning man is about artistic expression, and I'm worried that the organizers of this didn't do their best to try to make fire spinning artistic in any way.

Written by:

Go ahead - you can all continue to rant about how the routine is "beneath you" or you don't want to do it or whatever ..... but I think it will be amazing to see that many people spinning in time if it can be pulled off.




It has nothing to do with the routine being beneath anyone. I honestly don't care if the routine is easy or simple, but if it advocates bad spinning habits and simplistic patterns for long periods of time, I have a problem with that. And the issue is not whether this will look good to the audience - if that is what you think the goal should be, whether or not it looks good to the uninformed and uninnitiated, I think that you might be missing the point.

Written by:

If the ONLY reason you are going to learn the routine, and spin it with a grimace on your face (or worse yet, get in there and NOT do it) in order to save yourself a few dollars, you are TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT.




I joined conclave before I even knew there was a discounted ticket price. Even then, if someone were to be spinning in conclave for a cheaper ticket, I don't think that is a bad thing. Many people simply cannot afford the full cost of a ticket as well as the numerous other expenses, and if in their quest to save a few bucks so they can attend this amazing event they help out a group performance, more power to them.

CodyCodySILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA


Posted:
I just wanted to add a few more factors to this problem.
1. This has never been done before at Burningman

2. The performers are from arround the world and are being choriographed remotely via e-mail and little videos.

3. There may be only one actual rehersal with everybody before it is performed in front of 45,000(my guess) people arround a BOMB.

Written by:

but if it advocates bad spinning habits




I hope you don't mean the rapid plane shifts. I want to ask you if you are of the Robby Heart school of "My way is the only way." There are many ways to spin and I would not call any spinning a "bad spinning habbit."

Open your mind and rock on biggrin

Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada


rbmnycrbmnycBRONZE Member
lurker
194 posts
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA


Posted:
Rock rock on.

biggrin

-jesse--jesse-BRONZE Member
newbie
36 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA


Posted:
From what I understand, it was also kept really simple so that staff people could learn enough poi to participate and not get left out in the cold. I've heard rumors that if this one goes off in a not-too-horrible fashion, next year is going to be staff-only.

If I remember correctly, there's also a free spin after the choreographed part where you can express yourself in a way that you find more artistically pleasing.

Anything worth taking seriously is worth making fun of.


HOP Newsletter

Sign up to get the latest on sales, new releases and more...