Page: 123
Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I am a firm believer that if you are going to complain, offer an alternative.

With that in mind, this is the speech I would have given if I were President. This speech would have been broadcast within 24 hours of word of the prisoner tortures reaching my desk:

"My Fellow Americans, Citizens of Iraq, and People of the World:

"I have recently been made aware of the heinous abuses that have been perpetrated against prisoners under our guard in Iraq. I have been shocked and appalled by the information I have receieved.

"On behalf of all Americans, the U.S. Armed Forces, and especially those who perpretrated these horrific crimes, I offer my most sincere and humble apologies to all who have been affected, both directly and indirectly.

"Please rest assured that there will be a prompt and thorough investigation into these ghastly crimes. All individuals responsible will be apprehended, tried, and brought to swift and decisive justice.

"The United States has a proud history of treating our Prisoners of War with decency and humanity. We have strict policies regarding compliance with both the guidelines laid out in the Geneva Convention and with our own internal standards. These atrocities do not reflect the values of our people our our military.

"The torture of these prisoners has cast shame over our Armed Forces, and indeed over our entire nation. Furthermore, these events have poisoned our good will with the people of Iraq and with the people of the World and, as President, I will not stand for it.

"Thank you, and may God bless and watch over America, Iraq, and especially those who have been affected by these events."


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:There's a great line from Reservoir Dogs (a movie I hated, BTW).

"If you beat him long enough, he'll tell you he killed John censored Kennedy, but it don't necessarily make it so!"


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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robotface
member

Member Since: 2nd Apr 2004
Total posts: 190
Posted:it was "actually If you censored beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the censored Chicago fire, now that don't necessarily make it censored so!"

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spritie
spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX
Member Since: 9th Sep 2001
Total posts: 2014
Posted:Lightning, have you been listening to the news conference going on at the moment about this issue? It's actually kinda interesting and on here on CBS for sure so I'm guessing others as well.

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Okay, while yes to some degree you are right. That is why the military has intel people and it is their job to take all the information from "informants" and then tell the commanders what is true and what isnt.

Torture can be compared to paying someone, in that scenario. If I say that I will pay you $100 to tell me whats going on... I bet you would tell me that Elvis was doing a concert in down town Felluja if you thought that it would get you the money.


So... how do you get reliable information? That my friends is a serious question.

The answer, use what works untill it doesn't, then use something else.


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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:All I can say is this:

9/11 death toll - approximately 3,000?

Iraq Body Count - 9,000 to 11,000. AND COUNTING.

I don't think I need to say any more. And if I do, I probably shouldn't.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Whats your point, Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11 so why compare the two? The only trace of a connection is the fact that terrorists exist within Iraq. Then again show me a country where terrorists definatly dont exist... see my point?

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Quote:
it's just my best friends father died in the world trade center on 9-11 and all i saw on tv was the iraqs running around having a good time celebrating what there people have done.



This statement was what I was referring to. My point was, even is there was a connection (which I don't personally believe is the case) and the US is reacting as such...hasn't "justice" been done?


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Ahh I didnt realise that is what you were refering to. I personally dont know if justice is being done but if world terrorisim slows then I think that justice in the long run has been achieved.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
Ahh I didnt realise that is what you were refering to. I personally dont know if justice is being done but if world terrorisim slows then I think that justice in the long run has been achieved.



Yes? This is why there is "increased chatter" and why we keep going on alert? And why bombs keep blowing up all over the place?

All this war is doing is fanning the flames.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Perhaps, some think, that if you fan the flames enough it will get too hot for the terrorists to poke their heads out of their caves.

Perhaps if you make the price of terrorisim too high, none will be willing to pay. Fighting fire with fire?


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
Perhaps, some think, that if you fan the flames enough it will get too hot for the terrorists to poke their heads out of their caves.

Perhaps if you make the price of terrorisim too high, none will be willing to pay. Fighting fire with fire?



They're wrong. That has already been shown. Terrorism is cheap. And there is no price higher than death. Terrorists are more than willing to pay that price.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Well I'll avoid arguing semantics, think what you will.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Look, the only way you're really going to stop terrorism at its source is to kill its demand. You think these people are afraid of dying? Being captured? These people strap bombs to their bodies and fly planes into buildings. They're not afraid of very much.

The only way that we are going to put an end to terrorism is to eliminate the underlying conditions that spawn the sort of rage manifested in Al Qaeda. That means that these nations need to be taught how to use their most valuable resource, people (not oil), to run their economies. When the people are fed, housed, and covered for medical problems, terrorism will no longer be necessary.

Trying to stop terrorism by bombing innocent innocent people, destroying entire nations, and in general carrying on the way that the U.S. has been is like trying to put out a fire by throwing kerosene at it.

But it works out very nicely for Bush and Company. They get to spend huge amounts of money on these wars, stuffing their friends' pockets with lucrative military contracts. They also get to gain control of Iraqi oil and rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure, again lining friends' pockets with more contracts. AND because the efforts make terrorism worse, they get to be even tighter and more restrictive about civil rights.

This may be among the worst corruption in the U.S. Government since Nixon. frown


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:You ideas are a foundation. However, who is going to feed, shelter and immunize the world? Who's responsibility is it?

Communisim is a great idea, and that is exactly what you are proposing, everyone treated equally, given what they need to survive comfortably and everyone working for the better of society.

This is an outstanding ideal. However it is riddled with flaws. Communisim has never worked. There isnt a communistic country out there that is better off than a greedy capitalistic democracy.

Terrorisim flourishes in a communist society. Why? Because people will always want more. Organised crime flourishes, the government that is supposed to be working for the people will actually be grinding the people down because they feel that they should have more. Greed is the foundation of terrorisim and that you can never destroy. Man will always be greedy.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
You ideas are a foundation. However, who is going to feed, shelter and immunize the world? Who's responsibility is it?



It's theirs. But we need to give them the tools to be self-sufficient. It's in our best interest.



-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:The tools have been there since the dawn of time... some people just dont give a rats patooy and would rather live off of the wellfare of others.

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:I know "tools" can be physical means, or changes to our systems which enable the third world to develop.



But speaking of tools (such as myself biggrin), may I draw your attention to Tools For Self Reliance ?



If such means were already there, organisations such as this one wouldn't have to operate.



This is what Archbishop Desmond Tutu, their patron, has to say on the subject:



Quote:
Young people in Tanzania need tools if they are ever to get work. Disabled people in Ghana want to earn an independent living. Refugees in Uganda fleeing war want to take care of themselves and not depend on handouts. Yet in Africa - basic tools are hard to come by and can be impossibly expensive for working people.



Today in Britain, millions of tools are rusting away in sheds and garages. Volunteers from Tools for Self Reliance are working from the Orkneys to the Channel Islands - collecting and refurbishing these tools. Then they put them into the hands of hardworking people who are building their communities.



I think this is a beautiful thing. Its hard for people in Britain to make a link with people in Africa. But Tools for Self Reliance does just that. People to people - helping people to help themselves.





Sorry - bit of a shameless plug as I know a couple of the founders of this charity, but one which I hope you will agree, is in a very worthy cause.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:I am all for helping people, physical tools maybe hard to come by, this is true, but the tools of life all mankind is equipt with. The human mind weighs what (I forget) 7 lbs? (Or is it 7 oz?? I hate forgetting statistics), it is the most powerful weapon against hunger, the most powerful weapon against needs and wants. People need to think of soloutions, that work and then imploment them, I hear a lot of ideas but hear even less of action.

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Quote:
The human mind weighs what (I forget) 7 lbs? (Or is it 7 oz?? I hate forgetting statistics), it is the most powerful weapon against hunger, the most powerful weapon against needs and wants.



I agree, but when the brain suffers physically, for example, through hunger, it suffers mentally.

And it is unreasonable for us, the rest of the world, to expect an individual, or a people, to contend with such trauma alone when it has arisen through no fault of their own.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:I cant agree more. But, lets all try to think the single problem of world hunger to its end soloution.

The soloution to world hunger is quite simply, feed the world. Produce enough food to get people up and off their backsides to the point that they can start providing for themselves, or at the very least have something that they can offer in return for food.

How then, can this be accomplished?


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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Ever heard of "Fair Trade"? smile

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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FireSpirit
FireSpirit

Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
Location: South Lake Tahoe
Member Since: 29th Mar 2001
Total posts: 743
Posted:Quote:
All I can say is this:

9/11 death toll - approximately 3,000?

Iraq Body Count - 9,000 to 11,000. AND COUNTING.

I don't think I need to say any more. And if I do, I probably shouldn't.




But Iraq had Nothing To Do With 911!!!!!!!!!!

The First Bush should have finnished what he started and killed Sadam along time ago! But what I want to know is... WHERE IS Osama!!!!!!!!!!

Also Didn't we just take over Iraq, Why is my Gass prices Going Up!!!!!!!

Lick Bush in 04'


FIRE IS ALIVE!
IT LIVES AND BREATHS!
IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS!
BUT WE CONTROL IT,
AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:FireSpirit, if you read the thread again, all should become clear smile

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:Quote:
Ever heard of "Fair Trade"? smile



ha! it seems that some trade is 'fairer' that others....


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Quote:
The soloution to world hunger is quite simply, feed the world. Produce enough food to get people up and off their backsides to the point that they can start providing for themselves, or at the very least have something that they can offer in return for food.

How then, can this be accomplished?



Burzaruka, that's an oversimplification. Certainly we have the ability to feed the world, but the problem is more about equitable distribution of resources. One country in particular, consumes about 80% of the worlds resources, but people living in that country do not appear to want to share anything. In fact, they are happy to invade third world countries to ensure their energy resources. And to rub salt into the wounds they turn around and tell people living in that county, and the rest of the world, that's it's in the best interests of the invaded county.

ubblol "Fair Trade" ubblol as proposed by America is based on their policy of what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine.




If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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robotface
member

Member Since: 2nd Apr 2004
Total posts: 190
Posted:actually iraq wasn't a 3rd world country untill the UN sanctions.



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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:The whole point of what I said was for it to be over simplified. I wanted to lay a foundation for discussion and see what others could and would build off of it.

The question is how do you stop world hunger?

I wonder if anyone will actually be able to come up with a viable idea...


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robotface
member

Member Since: 2nd Apr 2004
Total posts: 190
Posted:how do you start? All the aid the US gives every year. 100% of it should be untied aid, not loans, or aid with strings tied. Just straight up aid. Americans pride themselves on giving X amount of money of aid (which amusengly they think is more then anyone in the world, when a couple of arab nations give more) when it's all business investments that put the world in debt.

Obviously you can't regulate what's comeing from private organizations, but the government should not endorse loan sharking the world.

Also, start writeing off debts, the WTO can certainly shoulder the burden.

Don't allow GM crops to be marketed to third world companies. The last thing they need is crops which they cannot regrow themselves and need to pay some genetics company for seeds every 5 years.

Lift several of the nonsense sanctions that are place on nations.

Now, some of this is beyond the US control, some of it's up to the WTO (which the US has a fair degree of muscle with) and the UN. But I don't see the US trying to bring about any change, the people who have more power then anyone to do so.



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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Hmmm...It seems "Fair Trade" doesn't mean the same to everyone.

I meant this kind of fair trade. Am I right in thinking the phrase "fair trade" has already been used somewhat erroneously over in the States?


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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duballstar
duballstar

slack rating - 9.5
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 2216
Posted:if i were president... is a song off Bizzare Ride 2 the Pharcyde

It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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