Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So, Spain's Conservative party just bit the dust.

Hard core.

What do you think this means for upcoming elections in other countries? What do you think it means for Bush? It makes me very, very optimistic that the Bush Administration is going to bite the dust hard-core, too come November.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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King Of Bongo


King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 522
Posted:We can but hope!

Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Possibly (hopefully).

But i got the impression that there was more anti-war sentiment in Spain than in the US. Bear in mind that that conclusion was based on the following data:

[conspicuously blank space]



and hey, isn't there a politics forum for this sort of thread? ubbangel



Yeah, ok i know. Nobody goes in there anyway frown



but i like it though... ubbcrying


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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King Of Bongo


King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 522
Posted:true...

everyone to the politics forum!!!
(-all the fluffy people beware, it gets kinda agressive in there at times...)
hugs
Ben hug


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Quote:
What do you think it means for Bush? It makes me very, very optimistic that the Bush Administration is going to bite the dust hard-core, too come November.



What country to YOU live in dude?! I feel like most americans would rather see all the muslums, gays, and artists shot before paying 10 cents more for gas tax. As long as the economy is strong, Americans don't give a damn about the rest of the planet. Hell, we can't even tell the difference between Bin Laden, Sadam and Chirac (He's the president of France-for any Americans reading).

Sorry buddy, our sentiments are in agreement, but I'm not as optimistic.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Actually, most Americans care about two things: safety and money.

And that's why I think Bush is doomed.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Care to put a wager on that? ubbangel



I think Americans would feel much safer, both physically and financially, with Mr. Bush than some newbie... Our country loves our president. We love the fact that we're bombing other countries. We love the fact that legislation is being passed to 'protect' us from terrorists, liberals, and gays. We'll drive by 5 small mom and pop grocery stores to get to a Big K-Mart. We'd rather build a jail than a school. And I don't care how much blood I have to trade for oil... as long as I can fill my 35 gallon tank of the biggest goddamn Cadallac SUV Monster Truck on the road... hell, I'll kill the Iraqi kid myself for half a tank of unleaded... U-S-A! U-S-A! biggrin


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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hexagonic


hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1687
Posted:Do you think Michael Moore's film Farenheit 911 will make any difference to the elections in November?

Agree most Americans don't give a damn about the rest of the world. I was in the States (Boston) on September 11 2001 and didn't realise until after i got back to the UK what a world event it was. There was NOTHING in the media about reactions overseas when I was in the States. It really was as if the rest of the world didn't exist. How sad.

Hex


ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
We'd rather build a jail than a school. And I don't care how much blood I have to trade for oil... as long as I can fill my 35 gallon tank of the biggest goddamn Cadallac SUV Monster Truck on the road... hell, I'll kill the Iraqi kid myself for half a tank of unleaded... U-S-A! U-S-A!



Ya cain't buy no oil, cain't buy no Caddie-lac, if you cain't find no job.



-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Radzyn
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Radzyn

HoP Star Wars Aficionado
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA

Total posts: 183
Posted:Ahhh but in the true spirit of the American po-man, you can steal it all, mebbe even shoot someone, and get probation.

~Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ok, the New York Times is fielding a lot of opinions on their Op/Ed page that the election in Spain may represent a victory for terrorists.

I disagree on the basis of two arguments.

1) The change of government in Spain was brought about, in part, because the people of Spain felt that the Aznar government was not doing a very good job of handling terrorism. The recent attack was evidence enough of that. The people of Spain seem to understand that provoking terrorists is not a good way to fight terrorism. The election was, instead, proof that democratic government works. The new government will use different tactics to fight terrorism, including attacking the very social issues and inadequacies that allow terrorists to exist in the first place. After all, happy people don't blow stuff up.

2) Al Qaeda really doesn't have goals or motives. They have proven that with their attacks on Arabs. They are like those punk teenagers who brand themselves "Anarchists" and use that as justification to have violent demonstrations. All Al Qaeda is is a group of megalomaniacs who are using Islam and some loose political mumbo-jumbo to justify their desire to kill. Even if every single one of their demands were met tomorrow, they would continue to be a threat. Because Al Qaeda can never be appeased, this is no victory. It is simply a victory every time they blow something up.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Mmmmmm, haven't been down here to po-lit-i-caal in a while

*looks around admiring the paintwork*

I like what you have done with the place.

Funnily enough, Australian can be almost as parochial as the US at its best. At the moment, Australian newspapers around the country are trying to find an Australian angle on the bombings. Australian politicians are trying to decipher what it means for Austalia, or more precisely, their political careers in Australia.

Howard's government is trying to argue the dual line that says "Australia is a terrorist target, but it is not because of us supporting the war in Iraq". They are trying to introduce new legislation that further reduces basic protection of human rights, in the name of "fighting terror". In order to do this, they must maintain the fear of attack in everyone's minds.

At the same time, they don't want to beef up the threat idea too much, because then they might get blamed for causing it by supporting the US in Iraq.

As such, they have put forward two interesting "alternative reasons" as to why Australia is under threat:

1. Australia's role in East Timor. Apparently our role in East Timor, something left-wing whiny individuals such as myself had wanted to happen for a long time, turned us into a target way back before Sept 11 had even been dreamed of.

2. Australia is a democracy. eek Apparently because the bombings in Madrid happened on the eve of elections, Al Queada will make a pattern of targetting elections now. Watch and wait to see whether this little corker allows PM John Howard to delay elections in Australia, any time he feels he is going to lose.



It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I'm not terrified that Bush would try to delay an election. I have no doubt that he would.

I'm terrified that, in that event, he might actually get away with it.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Quote:
Al Qaeda really doesn't have goals or motives. They have proven that with their attacks on Arabs. They are like those punk teenagers who brand themselves "Anarchists" and use that as justification to have violent demonstrations. All Al Qaeda is is a group of megalomaniacs who are using Islam and some loose political mumbo-jumbo to justify their desire to kill. Even if every single one of their demands were met tomorrow, they would continue to be a threat. Because Al Qaeda can never be appeased, this is no victory. It is simply a victory every time they blow something up.



eek

that's very different from my view. They're a very highly organised and well funded political group with clear aims. They want the western world to stop the cultural imperialism that they see as threatening their homeland.

The way i see their POV is that the arab states, who invented civilisation, have been being invaded by white europeans intent on "fixing" their culture for thousands of years, usually on religious grounds. In their view, they are retalitating.

They are not just "mad idiots who like to blow stuff up". Their attacks are aimed not just to cause massive damage, but maximum PR value.

The attacks are specifically publicity stunts, to gain support in arab countries and to scare western countries. They have been massively successful at both. The Spanish attack is currently an unqualified success story for them. Whether or not its also a success story for 'democracy' as well is an entirely seperate matter. Al Qaeda don't have a problem with democracy as far as i'm aware. They have a problem with the west's foreign policies.

please note, this post is NOT sympathetic to Al Qaeda's cause, and obviously not to their mass murders. But i don't see any mileage in trying to belittle them, or paint them as raving lunatics. The organisers are very sane, politically driven individuals. The footsoldiers are pawns fed with quasi religious mumbo-jumbo like Lightning mentions, just like infantry troops in any organisation.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So, Simian, do you honestly believe that if all their demands were met, they'd stop blowing stuff up?

That's the problem with terrorism. It's impossible to rein in. Just ask the IRA about the "Real IRA."


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:hmmm, how do you mean "meet their demands"? as far as i know they've never made any actual demands in the sense of "do this and we'll stop."

Their aim seems clear: reducing Western cultural influence in the Middle East.
But it's not an aim that can really be fulfilled.

It's kind of like asking if Greenpeace will stop demonstrating when they've saved the planet, or if McDonalds will shut once all the burgers have all been eaten.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:More chance of them stopping than destroying all of 'em.



In fact that's pretty impossible, because it seems to me that we only create more and more potential martars by the second.



As someone said recently, happy people don't blow [censored] up.



Look at Israel, they're getting tough now. They killed that religious leader the other day and now watch the escalation that 'getting tough with terror' brings. Even people who wouldn't have been active before are going mad ubbloco



*shrug*

EDITED_BY: DeepSoulSheep (1080136230)


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 3044
Posted:religous leader - well yes, i beleive he was the spiritual leader of hamas, and believed to be the coordinator of hundreds of suicide attacks [according to the media anyway...]



whats the solution? assasinate a guys who has caused so much terror and grief with suicide bombers and other militant actions, resulting in a wave of revenge attacks, or leave him, and get the attacks anyway? its a catch 22 situation.



but will they ever stop? can the fanatasism wear off over time? in the case of the islamic based 'terrorists' as long as hamas, hezbollah, and al quada survive, they will not rest until every jew is dead, and every other infidel dead or converted.

the IRA, basque separatists, tiger tamils - all seem to have goals/ demands that are different, but arent always particularly realistic.

but fanatic beliefs override what we percieve as commonsense and the cycle of violence will continue.



oh dear. im not sure i explained that well at all. i come back to this later....




EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1080196414)


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Quote:
whats the solution?



Stop stealing there land and killing their people. Violence leads to violence. End of story. The conduct of the Israeli government is inexcusable.

Look here.

This is a family who've lost they're homes because the area was deemed a security risk. That's not unreasonable. I'm not trying to do a "poor them" on it but if you read the text next to the photo, you'll notice they have a son called Jihad umm


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:You know, I'm a Jew, and I consider myself a staunch Zionist.

But I agree with every word Sheep just said. The treatment of the Palestinians by the Jews smacks of the treatment of the Jews by the Germans. I think all Jews need to draw this parallel. The racism and this ghetto business needs to stop. There are some points of contention (holy places), but Israel is not helping this situation at all.

The Palenstinian Leaders are horrible murderers, but the Palestinian people are not Israel's enemy!


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 3044
Posted:my point was that no side has moral superiority in this conflict. israel have committed terrible attrocities against the palestinians, often innocent bystanders, and palestinian leaders and have organised terrible attrocites in israel - of note the suicide bombing.



if israel stop reclaiming land, will hamas & hezbollah stop? i think its unlikely. sentiment is running too high.



if hamas, hezbollah, and the various other militant organisations stop the suicide bombings, will the israeli government stop reclaiming land? unlikely.



for peace, both sides have to give something. as long as both sides have unrealistic expectations of the other, its going to be a long road.



on a more global scale, [and potentially attempting to re-direct this thread back to its orgininal intent], more international organisations, such as al queda, seem to have unrealistic expectations of what must happen for them to cease the attacks. while this is the case, will they ever stop?



incidently, i have the same perspective of bush. he seems to have quite unrealistic expectations of other countries with completely different cultural background to his beloved texas.



postscript. - has anyone on this board actually been to the isreal/west back area? theyd probably have more of a right to speak than a demented aussie procrastinating at work thousands of kilmeters away.... for that matter, should we create a new thread for the israel palestine situation?

EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1080612943)


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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