Forums > Social Discussion > Anti War

Posted: 10th Jan 2002
LOL, that's funny. Is your email address a part of oxymorons anonymous?Agressive PacifistMilitary IntelligenceOrganize a RiotOriginal CopyI found more at: John's Oxymorons------------------"Those who can, do. Those who can't, critique"Pyromorph - Let the fire change you[This message has been edited by Pele'sWhippingBoy (edited 11 January 2002).]

FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

Posted: 10th Jan 2002
well, it's not my email address.but yeah. I suppose it is an oxymoron.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 10th Jan 2002
(It's number 151 on that page I referenced.)I'm sorry if this is a real request. With that email address I thought it was a joke.What kind of effort are you looking for?------------------"Those who can, do. Those who can't, critique"Pyromorph - Let the fire change you

FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.

English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson

Posted: 10th Jan 2002
there is a coalition of people in my area, that are sick of this war. I'm not going to go into it here, but war is wrong plain and simple.we want to organize protests, get out information, create a website, etc.this is a organized by ordinary citizens.we are looking for contributions, useful links, that kind of stuff.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 10th Jan 2002
I think this war is dumb for a number of reasons, which I will not bore you all with, as this is supposed to be a post and not a book. Mostly this war pisses me off because all the insane drug laws that George Bush sr. couldn't get to fly (the ones that that infringe horribly on our basic rights as human beings, and Americans) are getting passed now, and people are actually happy about it. If this anti-war coalition is for real and is doing something that actually makes a diffirence, rather then just a bunch of people stroking themselves with their own sense of moral superiority. I would totaly be interested. ------------------If you love something, set it on fire.[This message has been edited by SickpuPpy (edited 11 January 2002).]

Jesus helps me trick people.

Posted: 10th Jan 2002
Yes! the bush admininstration used this war on terrorism to take away the rights of it's own people.and canada too!but anyway, we'd love to have your support, send an email, I will get back to you.

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
I personally think war is wrong, wherever in the world and whatever the reason. It is not the way to solve anything, specially not with Bush behind the controls.Did anyone go on that anti war march from Hyde Park to Trafalgar Square at the end of last year?

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
Definitely very anit-war.The best bet is to join one of the main anti war groups around the world as size matters.For those in the UK you can sign up for info at https://www.stopwar.org.uk/I
went on the march last year. An astounding number of people were there. Really cool!

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
for those old enough to remember the gulf war or those interested the 'disposable heros of hiphopcrisy' did a very nice song about the whole situation, political critique. i doubt that spelling correct, but it is hiphop.

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
Absolutely and totally agree that this war (and all wars) are a bad idea...And go-go President Blair (NOT!)I was at the Peace Vigil outside Whitehall a couple weeks before the walk - wanted to go, but couldn't make it...really wished I could have been there though.Not sure these things make a difference though - what are everyone's thoughts?C

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
I was there! There was a pretty good turnout but v. poor media coverage.I'de certainly be interested in whatever you've got going on. War is wrong, end of story.

Geologists do it in the dirt................

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
ALL PERSONS WHO DO NOT WISH TO HEAR (READ) WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY SKIP THIS CUZ IT WONT BE PRETTY!!Now let me get this strait you are opposed to Americas and Americans right to survive? Lemme tell you somthing I am a United States Marine let me say that again A UNITED STATES MARINE!! I lost family in the attacks on my countries sovernty that day. Now if you think for one fucking minute that I am gonna stop this war because some piss ant in Canada thinks war is wrong you got another thing comming. Now I am new here and nodoubtadly will step on alot of toes with this but it is people like you who sit there and let a man like Osoma rise to the level of power that he did.For those of you in the UK who was it that came to your aid when Germany was thrashing your harbors and bombing your cities? America thats who, now you ungreatfull creatures are saying ohh stop this war stop the killing. I would rather there be a kill free way of getting the job done but I am sorry it just cant be that way. America has always tried to help out other countries. Even if we do not agree with their political policies. We send food and cloting, medical stuff. It would only seem right that we get booed and hissed when we stand up for our own. If you have the balls to sit there and say ohh this is wrong and then to join up with the club of the month and go protest this war then I say you should be the next target. You sit there and say that America is wrong in how we are hadleing the terrorist attack well my simple friends if it wasnt for us most of you would either be speeking German or Japanesse instead of English. You have no idea what it is like to have the death of a loved one sitting heavy on your heart and then to see a man wearing an Osama Bin Ladin T shirt standing infront of you and knowing that you can not do a damn thing about it. Here is a man who openly supports the attack on America and I can only stand there and hold in my rage and my desire to beat the brains out of him. What if someone was to fly a plane into Buckingham Palace. Would you say ohh lets forgive them and move on or would you want to catch the person wo did it even if it ment that British men and women would be sent to their deaths? Hell yes you would. I bet half of you would be first in line at the recruiting office. I have no respect for any man who says lets leave them be and stop this you are cowerds.[This message has been edited by Raymund Phule (edited 12 January 2002).]

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
I thought about this for a while...and then decided that all I really wanted to say was..."A smarter man would have found a way not to have to fight a war."We should be talking about Poi anyway. C[This message has been edited by Carrey (edited 12 January 2002).]

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
Would now be the wrong time to point out that Osama Bin Laden was originally American-trained?

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
mixed emotions run high...please read the following with a CALM dialogue. not a forceful demeanori for one am not for killing innocent people in any manner...but i do fight for the freedom of my country.i admit i do not know the political big picture, i am just a young man who has had pride in his country all his life, i would fight to the death to secure the freedom of any persone deserving it. weather that person realizes my sacrifice or not...i am an american fighting marine, i put my life on the line every day of my life so that people can be free, and have the rights that they tend to hide behind...i am not arguing any points made by anyone, there are some good points here and there, this is just how i feel...

anyone got a light?

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
Thanks pozee.

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
thanks for?i just felt that i should express my thoughts seeing as how my bombs are the things that are basically making this war...

anyone got a light?

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
This is a huge discussion, and one that we can't really have here. However I do express my opinion a lot and find I have to correct Raymund. Carrey, you have more control then me and put it nicely in one line.Raymund, please calm down and open your eyes and mind a bit. If you want I can send you a longer email, but a few points to consider.1) The old 'Who saved your ass in WW2' line is old and inaccurate. The US only joined the war when Japan attacked you directly and then Germany declared war on the US. Only then did the US take action. It saw it's financial future with half it's world in danger and acted in self defence. You helped, we're grateful, but if the US's help is only on a tit-for-tat favour trade basis then isn't that a little childish?2) There's plenty of people in the US who don't agree with the killing. How do I know? Because I was in NYC and DC a few weeks after the attacks and only the minority of people felt like you do.3) People die all over the world because of the West’s politics and greed. The West helps other countries out, but it also does a lot of bad. Please learn to see this.4) The UK does have terrorism, it’s been with us for decades. I remember a few years ago in London when you used to hear a bomb go off a few streets away. Even now whenever there’s a loud bang people immediately think bomb. The IRA has done to the UK for decades what the US has only just seen. What did the US do? They individually supported the IRA, and their politicians told the UK government to negotiate. Only when the tables were turned the US forgot all about it’s prior theory of solving terrorism with talk.5) 12000 innocents have died in this 'war'. 12000 people who didn't deserve to die. Can you justify even one of these deaths? Put it another way, more politically correct, 12000 people died as collateral damage. This number includes US dead, who should be seen as collateral damage exactly as an Afghan. More people are now dying every day through hunger and fighting.6) Osama is a more powerful person than before. He's now a living martyr to the Islamic cause for all those who want one. Why? Because the US and UK went charging in against him without thinking or talking. You want proof? Florida, a few days ago when a teenager flew into a building. Wouldn't have happened without the war.7) Osama is a US creation. The US was perfectly happy to let the Taleban rule as they wished and hoped to do business with them. The US seems to ignore everything dodgy if they can profit until it directly affects them.8) A coward runs away from things. I’m merely somebody who likes to have all the facts in hand, thinks things through, and then tries to find a solution in which less people are hurt.9) Probably something like over a billion people actively dislike the US. Every stop to investigate why?In general your rather lame arguments and short temper only serve to further an army and US stereotype that the majority of the world dislikes. Please be a bit calmer next time, it tends to make everything a bit clearer. If you, or anyone, want to continue this discussion then email me at dom (at) alternativa.co.ukPozee, respect what you say. You’ve always shown a calmer nature which is important (especially when building bombs!). Don’t agree with your job, but it’s only a job and it’s your nature I’m more interested in.Peace, Love, Unity and Respect to everyone.Dom

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
Yeah!!*standing ovation*------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
Oh, well done, Dom. I was really wondering when someone was going to mention the IRA.(just to clearify my first amendment rights when some FBI guy read this)---------> I THINK <----------One of the main rasons I disagree with this "war against terrorism" is beacause there is absolutly no way to fight terrorism on a government or military level. That is why terrorism works. Terrorism is faceless. It can be done by anyone, for any reason, at any time. With an entire section of the world despising western culture and the US spicificly, killing Osama BinLaden isn't going to change anything, in fact it will only make him a martyr to his cause.Every muslam country in the world is having riots and demonstrations. People are getting shot in the streets like dogs. They're not protesting Binladen, No. they are rioting because their leaders are sucking up to Bush. Their governments can't support Binladen or they'll suffer retaliation from the US. As George Bush so aptly stated "You're either with us, or against us!" Their governments can't side with Bush or thier people will form a coux.I understand that every one is up in arms about September 11th. It sucks that a few thousand people had to die, but you know what? We had it coming. If not this, than some other way. The US sticks it's nose, unsolicited , into the buisness of other countries far too much to reasonably expect to keep on doing it with no retaliation. Who sold Saddam Husein all his nasty weapons?We did.Who had a major hand in creating the Taliban?We did,The US has done far worse things than knocking over a couple of builings and for far longer too. But if you watch the evening news? Well, it hardly even happend at all. I'm amazed it took a tragedy like this for America to look up from it's video games and pottery barn catologs long enough to realize that there are other people in the world besides themselves.The only real reason we have for even caring what happens in the middle east (I believe that was one of Binladens demands, to withdraw from Saudi Arabia) is because of Oil Barons like Geroge Bush, who would just lose too much money if every one drove hydrogen cars like BMW introduced to public market late last year. No matter that they are cheaper, cleaner, longer lasting. and a million times more envireonmentally friendly than petrolium buning cars. If it wasn't for our insane oil consumption we could just leave the Middle East alone, and not have to worry about it anymore.Capitalism in this country is starting to devour itself. In 50 years time our economy has gone from being completely dependant on production to being competely dependant on consumption. WWII pulled us out of the great depression, and now WWIII is about to throw us back in.It's a fucked up state of affairs we're in, and turning Afghanistn to glass isn't going to solve it. And the really fucked up part?Do you know what people are thinking about all this?Whatever TV tells them to think.And we still to this day make fun of the Nazi's for cramming propaganda down the throats of their people, and all the while The US was perfecting it beyond imagination.You know, Hitler, in his time, got better ratings in the polls then Bush did.--------------------------------------------1984 has come and gone..... I wonder if anybody noticed?[This message has been edited by SickpuPpy (edited 15 January 2002).]

Jesus helps me trick people.

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
My arguments wrere not the best like you said I was very quick to my anger.I do not have all the facts, but this is what I know and this is what I must go on. A man sent other men out to kill Americans, for a reason that baffles me. Why dont you go to my Uncles house and tell his daughters why they can no longer see their mom. I understand the UK has had more than its share of problems 99.9% porbably comming from the IRA. I know where you come from. I have lived in England for a time 3 years in a small village called Yaksley (I think that is how you spell it). It is outside of Peterbourgh and Alcumberry AFB. I remember my parents being nervus as hell walking through downtown London undergrounds. I have also seen the fear of the Jappanesse when they look around before stepping on a subway train. Can I rationalise what has happend the innocent deaths on both sides. No I cant, but I can tell you is that it is sad that any innocent should die. America had no desire to kill Afganise only Osama and his men, and the Taliban forces. Osama was traind but the CIA to infltrate terorist organisations... what can I say, this is true. I bet the men and women who made that decision had no clue of the ramifications of their choice.I 100% agree with Pozee, except that I feel it with what seems to me to be a bit more conviction. I feel that we need to return the favor to those responsible and on a personal note. Any body who tries to stand in our way should be seen as comspiritors of the Taliban and treated in just the same mannor. Do I feel that the Afgani people are at fault in any way. 90% of them no. Those few who support the Taliban and Al Kida network shold be removed from the equation but not at the cost of innocent life. I am not against the Muslim religion. I have 2 good friends that I would trust with my life, that are Muslim. No no no Osama has been lets say revoked by all of islam. His own religion has denied him. He is no marter other than to those who are terrorists.As far as the US just letting the Taliban, being a member of the UN we can not just say hmm your not a democratic society *SQUISH* nope sorry dont work that way.READ AND HEED THIS NEXT PART.Was I quick to anger you better believe it. do I have my reasons you had better believe it. Do I need to post a pic of my aunt on here to get you to understand this? I am admiting that I was quick to speek and slow to listen. It is definatly one of my problems. If you think that I am a sterotypical American then I thank you I have yet to have as nice as compliment than that. I am not a soldier I am a Marine get it right. In the defence of my temper allow me to paint a small picture. I have been tought to kill from 500 yards away now with that in mind picture a 20 foot chain link fence me and other Marines on one side 1000+ protester shouting Osamas name and me with a loaded M16 when all I have to do is pull the charging handle and aim in I have a 30 round magazine I am sure that I could have killed atleast 6 or 7 before someone would have stopped me. I did nothig but sit there and let the people spit at us and throw rocks at us. Men and women around the owlrd are trainded to hate America. Mainly because we have tried to help a diffenent country instead of them. I can not say that what the Amercan govenment has done has been right all the time, but for that kid in Africa who got to eat today because some American donated a can of baked beans, Americans are pretty shit hot. I am not some cowboy with a six shooter. Personally I feel that if the world feels that the US is doing more harm than good then the US should leave the rest of the world alone. Ignore the starving children in Ethiopia and other parts of affrica. Stop trying to get rid of the slave trade in China and other countries. Prevent immagrants form holding good jobs and actually be able to enjoy a life outside of poverty. IF THIS IS WHAT THE WORLD WANTS US TO DO THEN LETS DO IT. Lets stop being a place where the meek the homles the aferm can come and seek aid. Let us tare down the statue of liberty. The world spites us and we help them out. When we send food they spit in our face. This whole thing probably doesnt make a lick of sence to you but it does to me so read it about 10 times then you might get it. I apologyse for offening you and being quick to anger.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
I am sorry for your loss.and I do understand where you are coming from. Everyone has a unique viewpoint. and thank you for sharing it.I agree with some of what you have said, but not all. i don't think you should tear down the statue of liberty. America, stands for freedom and justice. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Those are all beautiful ideals.What I disagree with, is the US, trying to impose that on other places. everyone should be free to do as they please, as long as it does not impose on another's freedom or life.and yes, the terrorists imposed on those people lives. and they deserve to be rounded up and brought to justice..BUT, i do not agree with the mass bombing of afghanistan, the implementation of authoritarian rules etc.The problem here is, the more bombs you drop, the more the terrorist will come after you. Violence begets violence.------------------~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

~whoosh whoosh whoosh~

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
pozee and dom, well said. everyone else who's posted on this thread: respect is due for sharing your views. having also seen some of the impact of Sept 11th first hand (I got stuck for a week in NYC as I was due to fly back to London on the morning of September 11th)I think everyone I met felt the same way. Not a yearning for revenge but sadness and disappointment. Because I think we had a bit more faith in human nature. People are people wherever they happen to live. We all have to breathe the same air and live on the same planet i just can't see why everyone just can't be nice to each other! *sunbeam prepares herself for the inevitable attacks on her silly idealistic comment*

"I don't take drugs. I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

Posted: 11th Jan 2002
Raymund Phule, don't tap America in the back too much. A study published recently showed that America was near the bottom of the list ranking rich countries' aid to poorer ones (in proportion to their GDP). It scored something like 25th out of 32 if my memory is right.Most "good" American actions abroad make me skeptical, i try to find the hidden reason to go. The media isn't much help since they mostly feed you the same crap (being owned by large financial empires who have their own interests, that go way beyond giving accurate information and serving the public interest) that doesn't push anyone towards more critical thinking. Only if you dig and read alternative newsources, that may have a little overly radical speech to my taste, can you find out arguments and points that could make you think broader and question your gut feeling.As a foreigner living in America, I am amazed by the little questionning people do and the mass following of this campaign (it is after a big PR campaign, with its target audience, incentives, benefits, gratifications...) in this country. There is very little debate. And when there is, it's usually not about "is this war right or wrong?", it's about "isn't this law suppressing more civil liberties a tiny bit too harsh?". I don't really want to get into what I think about this war because I feel like it won't add much, but I would rather give you the obervation of an-insider-from-outside who sees it with perspective.Peace,Nomad-----------------------------------Anthelionwww.anthelion.org

Posted: 12th Jan 2002
*agrees entirely with Pozee and Dom* All opinions are valuable. Mine just happens to be a very idealistic and perhaps over-moral view but I honestly believe killing is wrong. I do not agree with the attacks on America on Sept. 11th, neither do I agree with the mass bombing on Afghanistan. Surely what the Americans are disagreeing with is the killing of innocent civilians, and then they bomb many Afghani people in response. I just can't see how this is right. Killing is killing, and it's wrong. Like I say, I'm just a little moral kid who thinks everyone should respect their fellow inhabitants and live a bit more peacefully. Obviously the picture is a lot bigger than that but retalliation is not the way forwards.

Posted: 12th Jan 2002
yeah, that's what I meant.*agrees with HeliumDreamer*------------------Life in the circus ain't easy but the folks on the outside don't know yeah well the tent goes up and the tent goes down and all that they see is the show and the ladies on the horses look so pretty and the lions are looking real mad and some of the clowns are happy and some of the clowns are sad. Welcome to the freakshow.. here we go (Freakshow by Ani di Franco)

"I don't take drugs. I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

Posted: 12th Jan 2002
I do not know all the facts nor do I have to. I have my own reasons for fighting this war. The men responsible must but brought to justice but in reply to your mass bombings schpeal... I do not know how many Al Kida members there are nor do I know how many Taliban members there are but I do know that no country out there can walk in to Afganistan and simply ask those people to surrunder. Yes it is sad and regretfull that the American Military must drop tons and tons of bombs on a country to get those men to come forward but it is also the only way. Talk can ony go so far. We did give them the chance to surrender peacefully. The option was there and the chose to ignore it. SHAME ON US RIGHT? Untill you are willing to risk your life for something do not preach that war is wrong. Do not tell me someone who has no problem saying that I will lay down my life for another that what I do is wrong. Killing is fine in my book MURDER however is not. If violence begots violence do you honestly think that peace will begate peace? It is mans nature to destroy what we build. Prove me worng on that statement just try.But I think it was Carrey who said that we sould be speaking of Poi not war and who is right and who is not. Your opinion is yours feel free to express it but do not forget your rights end where mine begin, your right to throw a punch ends where my nose begins and this goes double for me.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 12th Jan 2002
Surely we must bring to justice these 'evil do'ers'. We must have peace on earth for americans everywhere. God bless america. G.W bush is a primo cock sucker another empty suit with an entourage of moronic warmongers at his side. Now dont get me wrong I dont hate americans my best mate is married to an american girl and lives there but it is without doubt the most rascist country on this planet.I shall give you an example: I spoke to my friend the other day in america and he told me the general attitude of his neighbourhood is "lets nuke those sand niggers and show them not to mess with the USA" If this narrow minded gimp had paid more attention to his countries rather small amount of history he will find that the USA are the ones who were messing first. Instead of thinking why were we attacked? people went out and plastered thier homes and cars with the stars and stripes, and went about assaulting those muslims and arabs that were in there communities. What the fuck is that going to prove?? Even as an englishman he faces prejudice from other americans who regard him as a foreigner. (excuse me but the whole country is made up of immigrants). Maybe some people will find my view and opinions offensive but thats all it is 'an opinion'.reagrds.......

C'mon baby light my fire

Posted: 12th Jan 2002
I just want to remind everyone that what the American government and its lap dogs in the media say is heavily distorted. There are a lot of mixed feelings about the war and a lot of questioning of mainstream media here in the U.S. You would never guess that there was any dissent if you watched any primetime news though. What sucks is, that propaganda is not only fooling Americans. Now other countries think we're a bunch of blood thirsty savages thanks to the media's portrayal of us. I think a lot of it depends on where you are and whom you speak with here, but the prevailing ideology is certainly not "let's bomb all of those towelheads." So I guess what I am trying to say is, the stereotype that Americans are racist, selfish, and impulsive is based on the actions of those who run the country. They are the minority, but unfortunately control the flow of a majority of wealth and information.

Posted: 12th Jan 2002
If anybody in my beloved Corps ever said "Lets go nuke those sand niggers" I would haul their ass out infront of the CG's house beath the living shit out of them then have them coutmarshel them for pregidus and racisim in the Corps. I have never heard such bullshit in all my life. Your best mate has been feeding you aload of crock. When this thing first developed ya I could see stuff like that being said. Now I think alot of tempers have cooled off. I am appauled at what your mate told ya. I do know that some Americans are racest as hell but it is not the majority. I am sure of it that there are racist groups in the UK as well.Do not jude us based on what a few have said.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"