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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:for future reference:



if you spin one poi, it goes round in a circle. this circle is 'flat'.

by that i mean that you could imagine a pane of glass going through the circle from top to bottom (and through your hand).

this imaginary pane of glass represents the planes we all talk aboot.



with your poi spinning vertically, if your planes are neat they (or if you prefer, this pane of glass) will meet the floor at 90deg.



spinning vertically there are two standard sets of planes:



the wallplane - which is spinning in front and behind you (like the mexican wave on the hop poi lessons).

face a wall - that's the wallplane.

or as someone told me once "the wallplane. its the one you juggle in, innit."



the wheel plane (not a standard name as far as i know but a damn good one i reckon hug eva hug ) - which is the standard orientation for weaves.

poi spin at your sides - think sitting in a car with the wheels at you side.





you are the -0- in the pictures below.

looking from above, the o is your head and the dashes are your shoulders.

this is purely to show which direction you are facing in relative to the planes of the toys (up or down, left or right).



the lines show the planes that you are spinning your toys in.



Code: WALLPLANE:



_________









-0-



_________









Code: WHEEL PLANE:







| |

| |

| -0- |

| |

| |







the third standard set of planes is the horizontal.

i tend to use ceiling plane or floor plane depending if i am feeling high or low that day.

others call it the lid plane.



the floor plane look at the corkscrew in the hop lessons.

when your poi are spinning like this (in a plane parrallel with the floor), you are spiining horizontally and hence, in the floor plane.

EDITED_BY: coleman (1081417940)


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Mozy
BRONZE Member since Apr 2003

Mozy

*.. If ya can't be Good, Be Good at it..*
Location: In Melbourne at the moment

Total posts: 147
Posted:rriiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt...hehe. I still don't understand that cole!!!

Mozy


watching the world go by!!!!

Trick ferret on the making hehe!!!!
Everybodyknows me as (TriX)

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:yeah that was a bit crap wasn't it?!

sorry

gone back and edited - any better?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:yeah, I get it...good idea

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:probably worth mentioning at this point that its generally not the planes that change by 90deg, its your body's orientation to them - ie. you turn to face the planes or turn perpendicular to them - you don't ever just pull the planes round (or 'breaking planes' as it is usually called).



so maybe those pictures would make more sense if they looked like this:



Code:

WALLPLANE:



_________









-O-



_________















WHEEL PLANE:





_________





|

O

|



_________









"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:good, nice, better, thanks!

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:coleman - is the 'plane' similar to what I would call the 'cube', in that there are 6 possible sides, or 3 possible planes to be working in?

side plane and front plane = vertical walls of the cube
??? plane = horizintal walls of the cube (corckscrew moves etc)

am I on the right track with your thinking?



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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Ade inhabits the third dimension

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:yep, that'd explain it

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Taniwha


member
Location: Aotearoa

Total posts: 138
Posted:Actually, they are all wall planes.
Ade u are right, but there are above the head wallplane and horozontal in front/ btb, hyperloop planes etc, etc.

I have a link about planes, but its another poi site.

They are quite pointless really, only a way to better help describe, in text, and idea or concept of a move.

Planes dont really exist and can actually stop your own personal expression, if u chose to follow them. What happens if u change your plane by 1.23 of a degree??? Is it now WRONG or somthing. Were not robots.

"think outside the circle "


Its all just smoke and mirrors

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:ade - that's exactly it

a plane is just like of the faces of the cube.
i'll go back and add a note about horizontal planes now.

dragon - the 'they are all wall planes' comment is a bit counter productive considering the context of this thread, don't you think?

but seriously, i'd entirely diagree with the fact that planes are only there to help describe moves.

tight planes generally equals neater circles for an audience.
eg. spin a weave with parallel planes (lets say wheel plane for the sake of choosing one for now) and get someone to watch.
they should see lovely, circular rings of fire.
then start bringing your planes together (into a 'v') and the person watching will begin to see the circles 'squash' into a conic section (in this case, a regular ellipse with the major axis running from top to bottom i think).

yes, spinning only in these 3 sets of planes does stifle creativity to an extent (no atoms, corners, even butterflies to an extent if we're talking about zero error - are butterflies your 1.23 degree plane angle move by any chance? ) but i think this will help rather than hinder most people who don't already have some kind of methodology for thinking good poi control.

the plane playing came way after i'd managed to develop half decent plane control. even now i only really like parallel and 90deg planes.
you want the crazy shit go ask arashi about trinity...


[edit for spelling]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Taniwha


member
Location: Aotearoa

Total posts: 138
Posted:Yea, sry bout the "all wall plane" thing. Thats what that site calls them all, and even has little diagrams etc. Waste of time if u ask me, although u r right about the symmetry and tight planes. I guess it depends on your skill lvl and what u really want to be doing with "chains".

[ 24. June 2003, 12:13: Message edited by: Raging Dragon ]


Its all just smoke and mirrors

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raging Dragon:
I guess it depends on your skill lvl and what u really want to be doing with "chains".that's exactly how i see it too man.

restricting your spinning to parallel planes is (imho) an essential precursor to learning good plane control.
maybe in the future we will find other plane combinations that allow as many variations as parallel planes, but for now parallel vertical planes and the lid plane stuff are the starting point (and are likely to be the only planes most people will ever use).

i reckon well over 90% of my spinning is based on parallel planes and most of my time i spend spinning in the wallplane.
call me limited if you like

[edit: and my head is already quite fukked at the moment man i'll leave getting confused by arashi for now - if you're learning cranes now, maybe when i'm ready i'll come to you to learn them? circles of knowledge dude ]

[ 20. June 2003, 21:29: Message edited by: coleman ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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sunbeam
SILVER Member since Nov 2001

sunbeam

old hand
Location: Madrid

Total posts: 1032
Posted:I think Raging Dragon has a point. After all, IMHO the ideal place to twirl (or perform if you like) is somewhere like a festival with lots of space and audience all around.

So your messy or "squashed" circles are going to look like "lovely circular rings of fire" from another angle.

cole, I think you're right too, to a certain degree, in terms of the theory but there really are loads of different planes aren't there?


"I don't take drugs. I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

sunny

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:yes, there are infinite planes.
however when we talk about most of this stuff, we're generally considering ones that are perpendicular to the ground and, if we 'mix planes', its normally those ones at angles to each other.

you can also tilt them towards the lid plane of course.

this thread was only really intended as a reference point for new spinners not as a discussion on planes but now we're here...

i have two points, both on control:

1. i agree, its fine to say 'there's shitloads of planes' but unless you can hold those planes throughout a move its going to look sloppy and maybe even unintentional.
if you can't reproduce them with a fair degree of confidence, or if you feel like the move 'comes when it decides to', is it really you spinning the move or is it just a lack of control?

2. the changes and mixes of planes should always be intentional.
sunbeam, you are bang on right when you say that if you are surrounded by people and you are spinning your planes at angles to each other, they will at least look like lovely circles to some people (unless of course you tilt towards the lid plane in which case they'll look squashed to everyone).
what i'm saying is, you need good plane control in order to get those lovely neat circles in the first place, then you can choose who (or more to the point, where) to show squashed circles to and when.
if you only spin in the planes in this post and get good control, the two shapes made by the poi spinning will neat regular circles to people dierectly in front of you and will be squashed by equal amounts for people watching at an angle to you.

good plane control is one of the most important things to me and my spinning.
without it i don't think i would really have much style at all - for those who don't know me, i think my style is kinda to just stand there, fairly solid and spin as neat as i can at set points around me. if i didn't have good plane control i would just be a boring static spinner with messy moves (you might have heard this about me anyway, depending who you ask ).
i definitely wouldn't be able to catch or mix planes very well.

so, when learning plane control it makes sense to use the standard three sets since 99% of the moves people know right now are based in these (yes there are probably just as many mixed plane moves but no-one really knows them yet).
when you have them tight, you immediately have two sets of perpendicular planes to play with (by mixing the original sets).

chicken and egg innit.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:and so coleman I was thinking about the planes, and agreeing that they are a good reference point for beginners

but

what happens when we extend the planes a bit from the cube description?

Can you imagine beng surrounded not by a cube, but say a dodecahedron (or another funky 3D shape with more than 6 planes) and spinning on those additional planes - which would accommodate butterfly and atom moves say....

it led me to the, what I thought, logical conclusion, that if you extend this shape on and on, and put even more planes into the shape, you end up with......

a circle.....

am I going mad?


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Actually you end up with a sphere

Which is exactly what Cole said: quote:yes, there are infinite planesand if you take the flat plane that describes the circular orbit of whatever you're swinging round that sphere, then thats the plane you're currently spinning in.

i see yours and Raging Dragon's point that you don't have to remain locked into spinning in a single plane, and can take your poi on more complex twisting orbits, but most of the time when you're playing you're gonna be spinning parallel circles aren't you?

My take on planes is basically this - if you keep planes really tight and parallel to each other it looks much much better than your planes being loose, wobbly and almost parallel. Thats not to say that crazy plane twisting moves can't look good, quite the reverse... but you got to know the rules before you can break them

Planes being wonky and spinning in V shapes rather than parallel lines is the main reason i generally see beginners struggling and whacking themselves (particularly with behind the back stuff)

[ 27. June 2003, 21:09: Message edited by: simian ]


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Taniwha


member
Location: Aotearoa

Total posts: 138
Posted:Col i think were both right. U do have to learn the basic concepts of planes untill u progress to a stage when the movement becomes "natural" and fluid. But when you'v been doing those planes for along time , u start to wonder "what happens if..." and then you start to variate and inovate different angles and styles.

Obviously Ade, we spin in circles, but the major basic planes are centered in the "cube" (Dont worry that the math dos'nt work for now).

Your "dodecahedron" and "3D shape with more than 6 planes" seems to fit well though, but if we are talking about basics and beginners then the cube is where they need to start.

It all get's too tricky when people are naming transitions (the move/connection between moves) What should happen is that by the time you get to that stage, u no longer worry about those because its all become natural.

Transitions are the exception to the rule of planes as u can variate them to a degree where they run through differnt angles untill they meet the next move. (I know there are poeple here who would disagree.)


Its all just smoke and mirrors

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:I play around with my planes like crazy but my 'proper' planes totally suck. It's just to boreing for me to constantly work on the same basic planes. Although if I spin with people watching I tend to try to keep my planes as neat as I can.

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:heh heh the wheel plane looks like a tie fighter!!
weeeeeeeeee!
yes, i think planes are limiting - but in a good way!! they severly limit our range of movements, but when you're spinning fire that's only attached by twisty chains/cables, strict adherence to a clean set of planes is a good thing!! it's only pioneers that think outta the box to explore that which we were never 'bought up' to believe, like Terrance McKenna.
It's only ayahausca-swilling people like Terrance that get to speak to the mechanical elves.
I refer y'all to read Arashi's trinity concept - planes that are angles other than perpendicular to each other! He illustrates this pioneer concept too - though the elves have already taken him, so it's no real surprise!!

huh?


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:I find it much much easier when teaching to talk about plates or discs, just because it is easier for (MOST) people to visualise them.

You might find it interesting to focus on the 'planes' seperately to the hand movements, which certainly helps for verbal and text based staff decriptions. It shoudl help to work with poi...?


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:
yay more thinking outside the box.
let me stress though that i think it is important to spend the first two or three years in the box. then start working with atomics, vertical and horizontal, and 45 degree planes, which are really just opened up atomics. halved.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raging Dragon:
Transitions are the exception to the rule of planes as u can variate them to a degree where they run through differnt angles untill they meet the next move. (I know there are poeple here who would disagree.) exactly man new transitions are the link to new planes.
like a trinity waistwrap still has the same circles as a normal one but the transitions are different, hence the planes are different.


quote:Originally posted by arashi:
i think it is important to spend the first two or three years in the box. then start working with atomics, vertical and horizontal, and 45 degree planes, which are really just opened up atomics. halved. i'm out early then...

[ 25. July 2003, 22:12: Message edited by: coleman ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:

somebody, give cole a spanky for me...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:Ohh dont worry Arashi, He's gonna get a spanking (and a big hug) sometime soon! Believe me!

Funny we should be thinkning about planes, glass, the cheeky swine told me: quote: If you turn up to a spin meet one day with clean, smart cloths,a shave ands spinning perfect planes, no-one would recognise you! and i been thinking since then, and kind of agree, but not.

See with staffs I think that the plane should almost never be vertical and central, frankly im boored, thats what poi are for and the staff is much more fluid and intresting to play with in all the planes, especially with single where its more about body position and movement. Martial art staff is very often out of plane, as strikes from only the top or bottom or direct side-on would be easy to counter, and staff seems made for this perpous, so changing plane with staff is good, you can force it, make it happen.

However, poi are a diffrent beastie and have diffrent physics, although both are essentially rotational forms, the poi is a lot more dependant on momentum, and the forcing of poi in and out of diffrent plane become s more of a timing issue of when you can 'pull' the poi of course. with poi whatever plane you chose it is going to want to stay in the same plane much more actvly than staff and therefor changing sides (or turning ) involves reversing the angle relative to yourself aswell as the direction. but then i still cant really figure trinity.

One more thing: ( ) Ive found that there is such a thing as a 180 plane change, and for me thease are going to be the next bit of research area, who knows maybe we end up with inside out isolation? :shrug:

Keep to it my pretties!

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:180 degree plane change?

Thats just a reversal of the direction of rotation innit? You can just kick a stick to get it to do that. But you can also do the insanely complicated plane twisty stuff we were chatting about ages ago


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:

what about crosses? I'm just beginning to play with them, and can get some moves in the wall planes (horo and vertical), but there seems to be a whole 'nother set of 'planes', 'lines'... that they want to travel in.....

has anyone thought of the planes/circles in relation to crosses? are there any planes for crosses? do you see it as just an extension of staff, or something more, combining more planes/lines.....


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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:ade,

I presume your talking about fixed staff cross? I dont know but i think the physics changes for them as they are a proper wheel, and dont have the same transition point between planes, but I could be wrong.... Cole!!!!

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:yep - fixed staff crosses -------> +

yes +), I think you're onto something with the wheel comment......

screams: cole - you're magnificent brain is required in this thread.......


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:sticks? huh?!

got no idea what you're on about...

physics says; the deal is that crosses should be harder to move out of plane.

i say; this affects transitions from one plane to another - and i don't just mean plane sets (like from wall to wheel plane), i mean from behind your body to in front and from left hand side to right and so on.

its all a bit funny (see that techy language? told you i'd done a degree...) as neatly going from plane to plane will require slower spinning, stronger arms or with plane set changes, likely a complete stop - stops looks lovely when you stop with one horizontal, one vertical (+) and pivot 90degrees around the horizontal section to go to all horizontal.

but i don't get sticks at the best of times - you forced me to comment, remember that
go ask knox dammit!

poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi, poi. ahhhhhhhh, that's better


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Crosses act all funny and wierd, because usually when you rotate a staff along its length (like turning a screw) it makes no difference to its position. You do this whenever you do those doublespin things (aka shotguns).

With a cross, when you rotate one of the cross pieces in that way, the other one spins round and smacks you in the face\groin\shin\badger.

Which is what throws the whole planes thing out the window when you use a cross. You still can describe the way you're spinning it in terms of planes, and how those planes shift and twist at certain points. But it's all a bit complicated, and all this talk of planes is to simplify matters. So it'd be a bit counter productive really.

Thats what i reckon anyhoo


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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