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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Hi all. It's been a little quiet on the staff front for a while, but as there seems to be some more active staffers online I thought I would continue this long-running-saaaaga-of-a-staffer-whose-gone-to-the-dogs....

"""Here we go again in an exhaustive attempt to get some more common terms for staff moves to enable webbased sharinf of tricks.
There are three sections.

Staff Movements = What the staff does in the air regardless of how it is achieved).

Manipulation Movements = What your body and fingers etc do to make the staff behave a certain way.

Body Movements = Just what the body is doing, without referring to the staff at all.

These are split so that people who are doing certain moves in a different way with the same result get to share their ways instead of thinking they are the same. Which has been a major problem in the past.

----------Staff Movements----------------

* HELICOPTER = A horizontal spin in the same space, usually above the head.

* ROTOR = Any vertical spin that stays in one space. Same as HELICOPTER, but perpindicular to the ground.

* 1/2SPIN = Where the staff has only spun 180, this is regardless of any other motions or actions.

* FULLSPIN/DOUBLESPIN/TRIPLESPIN/ 1/4SPIN ETC
= As above, 1 spin is a complete rotation and the rest as they apply.

* FIGURE 8 = To do a 1/2SPIN on you left and right side with the path crossing directly in fron of you. A trail from the centre of the staff would make a sideways figure 8 wrapped around you.

* DOUBLE FIGURE 8 = An extension of the FIGURE 8, with two extra spins on each side.

* SIDEWAYS FIGURE 8 = A FIGURE 8 where the 1/2SPINS are in front and behind you, instead of on either side.

* POP = Simple flat throw into the air, horizontal without spinning unless otherwise stated.

* OVERHEAD POP = Flat throw from the front and caught behind or from behind and caught in front.

* CLOCKWISE = The spin of the staff in relation to the chest of the staffer

* ANTICLOCKWISE = Reverse of clockwise, or same direction but behind your back rather than in front.

----------Manipulation Movements----------

*PINWHEEL = When the staff spins in a large vertical circle made up of smaller circles. Most common pattern for a continous BTB move.

* FINGERSPIN = To roll the staff through your fingers one-by one, keeping the staff stationary and spinning in a ROTOR or HELICOPTER.

*** please note, FINGERSPINS do not need to travel along all five fingers, but the end action where the staff wraps under or over the hand to begin the motion again is seen as the end, not the beginning***

* PINKYSPIN = FINGERSPIN that begins with the pinky, and then to the ring finger, index finger and so on.

* THUMBSPIN = Same as PINKYSPIN, but starting form the thumb and then traveling along the pointing finger, index finger and so on.

* FORWARDS = To lead a movement or spin with the thumb on the leading part of the staff. As in slicing a sword down diagonally in front of you.

* BACKWARDS = Same as FORWARDS, but with the pinky on the leading part of the staff.

* FORWARDS FIGURE 8 = To lead with the thumb-half of the staff when doing a figure eight.

* Wrap = To roll the staff lengthwise around a body part.

* ARMWRAP/WRISTWRAP/NECKWRAP etc...

* CATCH = To grasp the staff in one or both hands that were not holding it earlier ( )

* PINCH = To grip the staff between non-hand body parts, such as the shoulder and neck or the forearm and bicep. The staff continues to move or spin to be a pinch, otherwise it is a STALL.

* NECKPINCH = To grip the staff between the neck and back or neck and chest while keeping it moving.

* HANDWRAP = To release the staff while spinning it so that it rolls over or under your hand and then cathing it again. Often used during FINGERSPINS to keep the staff centred.

* STALL = Any move that stops the spin completely for at least one milliheartbeat.

* FOOTSTALL = Horizontal catch or movement with the staff stationary and horizontal on your foot for at least one milliheartbeat.

* BALANCE = Balancing the staff on one end (preferably without fire) on a bodypart for at least one milliheartbeat.

* TOOTHGRAB = Any STALL or move where the staff is held by the mouth/teeth/TONGUE!!! etc. People like myself who experiment with moves like this should prepare themselves for ridicule...

* TUCK = Like an underarm roll. To swing the staff under your armpit, either to catch it there or as part of another move.

* PALMSPIN = To spin the staff in a flat palm, without using the fingers.

* "insert body part here"SPIN = To spin the staff on your "IBPH" without using hands or arms.

-----------Body Movements------------------

* 180 = Half-rotation of entire body (usually using feet)

* PIROUETTE = Full-rotation of body

* 45,90,270 = Well, you get the idea, aye?

* LEFT-TWIST = swiveling at the waist 90 degrees to your left

* RIGHT-TWIST = swiveling at the waist 90 degrees to your right

* LEFT-TWIST[45][20][180!] etc = Swiveling the appropriate number of degrees, also includes RIGHT-TWISTS.

***Any move calling for 180 or more should put an "!" after it, coz its very hard to do!***

Miscellaneous

*BURNOFF = To spin off excess fuel by spinning the staff horizontally on its own axis, sometimes producing two fireballs.

-----

Right, come on guys there must be lots more basic ones I've missed...


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Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:fishtails YUMMY

but for me and rob and steve.. reverse fishtails are easier.

I suppose you could call them fishheads
and when I say eaiser compare.
Really Really Really Really Really Really Really Really Really hard
with Really Really Really Really Really Really Really Really hard


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Thanks Inferno

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Ok, I now know what a fishtail is, and yes, the name is veyr apt!

What a crazy move! Somehow methinks it might take a bit of practice to get that one solid with my big staffs. I've got it with one of my smaller staves, but...

Can anyone who has attempted double fistails give me any pointers? No luck at all yet...


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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:quote:Originally posted by TEMPEST:
I don't like that term or the shotgun one when simpler terms can describe the same thing.yes, tempest speaks with the voice of reason! whereas i can only muster the voice of pickled garlic, hhhhhhey?

If technical terms and naming conventions are to be adopted -at least within the HoP-niverse- then i ask, no i beg, no ask, no i send a midget that said that the names and conventions are kept as simple and descriptive as possible.
If it's an advanced cousin of the figure of 8, let's just call it a double figure of 8. That's how i refer to it. I don't walk into a bar (ouch) and ask for bender's special, expecting the buxom bar staff to know how to make one, seeing as they haven't heard of my cocktail nor have any liquid cow with which to make it.
idosyncratic names should be kept where they belong, in 70's adult movies.

hey that post confused me too, i must be losing it again.
/simulateneously overjoyed and worried


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Bender? Did you just amke an almost completely comprehensible post?

(falls off his chair and onto the floor)


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Ok, so fishtails are much much harder with big staffs...any tips from anyone who can do double fishtails?

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Glåss
DIAMOND Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:fishtails not harder with a big staff.
about the same I reckon.

two hand fishtails, I'm close, both hand are getting solid, but only left hand works when I'm not looking but I only really started swinging doubles last night

1 Agreess with bender but I'm still looking for the joke in the last line
I just call then extra loops or snakes.... but I think it is the same as a (normal) clubswinging snake


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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:righty ho, then, mr www.firetwirlers.com,
i believe your non-poi windmill is sometimes referred to in the HoP-niverse as a pinwheel.

also, is the double figure eight not a symmetrical move? does the staff not also spin in front as it does behind?

As well as the "double figure of 8" behind your back...

methinks you are right though that 'kickups' and 'passings under the leg from all fides' (i call em 'leg tucks' personally) have yet to be mentioned on this thread.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks for all the great replies on the "fish tail and shotgun", and apologies to Bender for not using the correct technical terms

I was seeking clarification, because I find all the double f8 variations confusing, and only brought up the term shotgun coz I was curious to see if it was a "double f8", or perhaps an interesting variation (ie. advanced cousin of the double figure of 8 ). I guess the term shotgun comes from a double barrel shotgun, which could indicate a double f8.

Still, some interesting discussion on double f8s. I dont think the cradle or extra loops have been mentioned much before, but they seem appropriate, as we all do em somewhere along the way.

Snakes are a club swinger move, but you dont generally cradle a snake. With a staff, the length and weight generally means that it does end up in a cradle (and you kinda carry it a bit).

I think for a staff hip snake, you would include a wrist roll in front, because you dont hold the snake grip in front for an outward hip snake. However, with club hip spirals (snake held in snake grip in front and behind) you start bringing the club in b/t hips and forearms, and even with a longish staff (3-4 feet) you can get in, another rotation in front. Like on the second rotation you go b/t the wrist and forearm, away from the elbow, before you go around the back. I get confused with spirals, so I hope that made a bit of sense.

Single staff windmill, is a full/big circle behind the back, made up of smaller circles, with a hand changes behind the bum and above the head. I think from memory Charles its called a pinwheel when done in front.

Cheers


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:I've always heard the behind the back one refered to as pinwheel.

But then again, I don't think I have ever done the one entirely infront.


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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:hehe i guess we've proven that we all have our own naming systems!
personally, me likes to keep the windmill with *one* definition (ie it is more widely known as a poi move combination) and that the pinwheel defines the move described in the above posts. wether it's in front of the body or behind to is simply a pinwheel in front, or a pinwheel behind.
It definitely does not dovetail with everyone else's definition, but then again, the police did say that i was 'different'


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Perhaps, this thread should be called More Naming Strife Moves IV

More apologies. I thought everyone called it a Windmill, and just so you know Im not making this up. I got the Windmill from of Bec and Elkes book, and the Pinwheel off Charles in an old post.

There is also a club-swinging move called a pinwheel (that would be suitable for poi) which is different again. If you are keen, there is a description somewhere in the Club Swinging Thread. Wots the poi one Bender?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:not that i wanna mention too much poi on a staff thread, but the windmill is in the lessons section.
i love firestaffing!
i love firestaffing soo much!


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:thought u meant poi pinwheel. Will try at practice tonight

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Ok, I know its universally better in the longrun not to have names for combos but seeing as though the pinwheel is just that and helps out somewhat, what would you guys call the basic rotor pass behind the back.

I have always heard it referred to as 'around the world' which I have found usefull for both learning and teaching, or...

...would you simply call this a low pinwheel (or half pinwheel) behind and a high pinwheel (or half pinwheel) infront?

Does a pinwheel have to complete one full cycle (back to the start) to be called that and does it have to be symetrical?

Charles - can you add fishtails to the list at the start yet and how about these extra ways of adding beats on to a basic 2 beat, they do add so much dimension to spinning.

Another one that I just remembered is what Josh spoke of as a shoulder roll. The hand keeps the staff in the normal grip but the shoulder 'rolls' to keep the staff moving. I hadn't even realised he was doing this and just presumed it was a thumb extension because of the central pivot point. I believe there is a short clip of him doing it in the 'morning coffee' vid coming in and out of a two beat weave?


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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Are all the staffers on holiday or what

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yes :sleeping:

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:5 weeks I have to wait for an answer and that is all I get.

erm, cheers

<wanders off to scrape the greeen glitter crap Nix oozed on his glo staffs...

...and realises its got araldite qualities >


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz


"WAaaaaaaaggggggghh"

*Charles drags himself out of bed to change a diaper, then slumps back, vaguely aware of this computer shaped box in the corner than hasn't been truned on in a few days

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZz

"Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaghh"

-------<argh, BUGGER!!!!>--------


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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:....and still ignores my questions.


anyone would think you have a new child to look after or something


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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:tempest, i'd imagine one would need a body-position qualifier if that btb staff move were to be identified.
i.e. from what i know, horiztonal pinwheel while leaning foward would be the term I'd use, if that is of course what you is referring to.
I could be wrong tho, as 50% of pregnancy kits are....


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:100% of preganacy kits are wrong...they all show a nil result at the factory!

And yes please, a few more details on body position too.

Bender, have you got time to update the list with fishtails and some of the others, i'm not really meant to be on the site here at work


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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted::stares vacantly:
wha-? me? this is your thread mate! i can't change the initial post!
Have you been testing out kits again? you know it'll lead onto the nasty stuff - like glass thermometers!

on a non-testkit note, hows about we establish a staff movement naming convention whereby if you are discussing a move that is not quite of the list that Charles has so comprehensively gathered at the list on this thread, then you should put a descriptive qualifier to the name of the move just to clarify the variation. Of course, if it is a new move, then it is a new move!
for example, if you palm both staves behind the back whilst leaning forward, a way to refer to it would be 'a forward leaning btb double palmspin.'
Obviously nobody's holding a gun to your head if isn't mentioned exactly the same every time, but i feel that so long as....
a - the minimum of qualifiers/descriptors is used in the name.
b - there is enough description in the name for the move variation not to be confused with any other.
...there will be world peace!
The Charles List could be treated as a template of vanilla plain standard staff moves - if you refer exactly to that move, then fine, everybody is happy, and if your move is an enhancement/variation of it then yeah, clarifying the nature of the variation is a must methinks. If the move being discussed is an entirely new beast altogether, then let us further distract Mr Charles from his work and get him to add it to his Charles List
happy fwirling and let's show those poi weirdos what real twirling is about!
:pretends that he doesn't twirl poi:


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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:The move/transition that I tentativley called 'around the world' is the move you refer to Bender but I meant while keeping the staff in a rotor spin, not horizontal at all.

I was trying to establish if you guys would class this as a low pinwheel infront to low pinwheel btb or something different.


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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:ok, now i'm lost, mate!
the staff is held in a rotor fashion and it's not horizontal? or is it a trick where the body is completely upright and the arms revolve the centre of staff's spin horizontally around the body?
I should not have been sniffing that CD texta tonight...
we have to meet one day dude, there'll be 10x moves transference that day!!


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Jez


addict
Location: UK, London

Total posts: 642
Posted:I have a move which I call the blade spin, It is pretty much the same as a palm spin except that it is done on the blade of your hand (side of the pinky finger). This can be done wherever you would do any palm spin and the only reason I do it this way is for a style choice.

'Happiness is liking peeing on yourself. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.'

'If *I* had a hammer, there'd be no more folk singers.'

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Jez & Bender

Bender, Rotors have to be vertical, like the stablising rotor on the tail of a helicopter...

Jez...that is cool! how are you holding your hand and wrist? do you have an open palm or a closed fist?

Lots more info please please please....


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Tempest


addict
Location: Sheffield

Total posts: 522
Posted:Bender, yup body is upright. Simple move/transition you will already do, double hand spin in front of you clockwise (wall plane), fig 8 forwards with right hand, continue and pass to left hand btb, bring the staff back round the front on your left side and back to the start in front of you. Symetrical move, thumb together infront and when you pass btb - 4 beats around the body I think

told ya you already did it

Yeah man, if you ever get over here, we gotta spin

if there is still confusion, i'll do you a small vid of it to email.

[ 12. July 2003, 00:30: Message edited by: TEMPEST ]


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Jez


addict
Location: UK, London

Total posts: 642
Posted:Its done with the palm open, usually done above the head with the hand on its side and spinning the staff on the side of your pinky.

Hope that helps you a bit more


'Happiness is liking peeing on yourself. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.'

'If *I* had a hammer, there'd be no more folk singers.'

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Sorry Jez...is this a side-of-the-hand palmspin thingee?

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