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Forums > Technical Discussion > Calling all physics experts. toroidal vortexes and their application to fire?

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:Basicly all I know of a toroidal vortex is that it is how a smoke ring works.

Most of what I know about them is that they are a type of convection that occurs very naturally. It stabalizes a moving gas so it can stay together and move much further then it normally would.

Fireballs from fire breathing convect apon themselves. I was thinking if you could make them
go into a toroidal vortex via some sort of horn which you breath into. you could make them into neat 'fire rings' that would rise really high into the air. Even after the fire burns out the remaining smoke may follow the pattern.

Mostly what I know about them I have read here http://www.zerotoys.com/manuals/science.html
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I realize this is probably really dangerous and im just interested in knowing of the principle would work. Maybe if it's to dangerous for fire breathing it could be applied to some sort of flame thrower device.


The horn I am pictureing would be like a bull horn (those old tin cones that in cliche depictions of film directors you see them yelling into)

It would have the shape on the inside to cause a vortex in the mist of fuel you spray into it and then you light the mist with a torch when it leaves the horn like you would regular fire breathing. But maybe to get the vortex effect you would have to make an already ignited plume of flame pass through a passage inorder to make it role onto it's self in a toroidal fashion. Maybe it could be something like a bull horn that you put about 10 feet above your head on a pole or something and breath into.

Chances are the fire breathing angle isn't reasonable but it would be really cool if you made a flame thrower type thing to give the effect.

Anyways I was just wondering if this was possible.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well, I'm no physics expert, but I can blow bubble rings underwater. The secret to a ring is a short, sharp blast of air. The center of the air moves more quickly than the outside and that causes a ring to form as it rolls over itself. Helps if there's a round opening for it to come out of, too. The reason a flame plume doesn't form a ring is because it isn't short enough. A mushroom cloud is a toroidal vortex with a stream pushing up through the center, which is what you see when you breathe fire.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:The smoke from fire breathing does leave a ring (at least off of pillars, I never checked when doing flashes and rapids). It is a daytime favorite of the crowd to see how long it takes for it to dissipate. This was actually "discovered" for me by a group of school children I did a show for some time ago.

I can't picture doing it safely with fire breathing though, yet. Herm.....
...and don't mention this to knagi! The more dangerous I think the more magnetic he finds the idea.

Oh Wait...David Copperfield did something along these lines as well, but it was huge and he used wind machines and gas jets on the outside with a cooling air stream where he stood in the middle. It actually created a sort of tornado effect of fire but when the gas shut off the remains dissipated in a ring. I remember it looking sooooo incredible.*edit to add this*

[ 04. March 2003, 12:10: Message edited by: Pele ]


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:David copperfield is a freak!

Did he have a oxygen supply? Because I can picture something like that sucking the air out of your lungs and replacing it with super heated vapours.


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I remember he had a heat suit (the kevlar suits worn by firemen, "ninja" hood and all). He had heat protective gel on the skin around his eyes.
I don't remember there being an oxygen tank or hose though. Ummm....can't recall. I know that he wasn't in it for too long but it was long enough that the area of skin around his eyes was burned like a bad sunburn in that time.
It wasn't an illusion. It was straight up human tolerance type stuff. He was chained down or to something because the sheer force of the wind it took to make the air move into tornado-esque gusts would have pushed him into the flames.
It was nuts, I'll give you that. And it definately was beyond my comfort zone!


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:I think this is achievable without any apparatus at all, just practice. I've blown a few rings from time to time. Never tried to recreate it, but from what I remember, it was a great deal of force with a widened gap between the lips to create volume not distance, and a sharp cutoff. The effect was a cloud that turned or rolled inward on itself as Mikie stated, leaving a hollow center and lifting this way for 3-5 feet. I dunno jack about physics, but even from looking at the nice little moving pic, it's a force that can be applied to the lips and the force behind. Even looking at the pic now(halfway thru the post), it stabilizes in the head how to do it consistently. I kno, I kno, I just met someone with some video equipment, will try to post some vids if I can get him to come out. Have a little more time on my hands these days

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:Wow. That sounds really amazing. If you could get it to happen reliably it would be great for a performance.

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Sparkfire


Fire coach - Cirque du Soleil
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 89
Posted:Saw a fire cannon at Summer Dreaming in '01 that did this. large fire balls shaping up into fire rings about 1.5meters wide. looked wicked.
got to perform on a stage above the DJ booth while this thing was going off behind me.. lotta fun. and yeah the fire rings continued as smoke rings when the sky got lighter.
i belive it was part of the Synchromesh instalations.


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Ajay


member
Location: Oxford, U.K.

Total posts: 158
Posted:i made a smoke ring blower! its soo cool (and easy to make).

take a tin can and cut the top and bottom off

place a balloon over one and and tape it in place.

tape a circle or car to the other end with a hole cut in about the size or a 2p.

then fill with smoke and flick the balloon and poof out comes a smoke ring!

great fun.


One fine day in the middle of the night,
Two dead men got up to fight,
Back to back they faced each other,
Drew there swords and Shot each other.

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