Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:i did a few searches and didn't find anything, so here goes. I wanted to do this in technical because altho i am posting for staffers you can apply a lot of this to other toys or weapons.

1. I know the easiest way to do this is to do a fwds roll with the weapon tucked into your belt and just not be rolling on that side. (obviously not a dead center fwds roll)

2. next easiest is prolly to have the staff/weapon in front of you in your hands and roll *over* it.

3. an amusing one is watching people take weapons out whilst they are rolling.... i don't know a lot about it beyond it looks cool.

4. I've seen a lot of staffers put their staff on the ground and use it as sort of a push off marker for dive rolls or flips.

BACKROLLS

1. The obviously easiest is to cradle your weapon in front of you and tuck over it.

2. Again, you can have it in some way stored and pull it out whilst ur rolling, and again i don't know much about this.

3. To address a question a friend of mine asked a while back about a very sick staff move that he was working on, you could in theory do a smooth backroll with the staff behind your back. Since you would already have the staff pretty low on your back, the trick would either be to fall higher up in the roll so that the staff doesn't hit, or to drop your hands slightly so that you hold the staff just under your ass. The trick here is that you have your hands in an unnatural position that will disrupt your flow a little bit, so getting a smooth backroll even with your hands basically trailing your body is key. The easiest back rolls i know basically involve a smooth fall backwards and then you just roll right over- slightly to one side in eth roll, not in the result. Wish i could convert 8mm to MPEG right now.... anyway if you fall into the roll well momentum should help you even with your hands behind you but practice cause it's prolly gonna take awhile....

now, what i want from you guys is first of all any advice on what i said, but more importantly other ideas on rolls... esp those with martial arts background.

thx all, happy twirling
peace & love,
Kyri

"If you live on the edge you're bound to fall off.... tuck and roll"


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Vlad
member
Location: Tucson, AZ
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9
Posted:I have been experimenting with some basic "flashy" rolling and jumping with staves (5 and 6 feet). The martial arts style I am currently studying finds jumping to be a waste of energy that creates too many openings for your opponent (most of the time). And rolls are for falling.
I've taken most of my moves from breakdancing and capoeira: 540 kick, Au Batido (with the staff planted or in the "free" hand), staff-planted cartwheel, one-handed cartwheel (staff planted or in free hand).
The only thing that comes close to the rolls are the cartwheels currently. I do rolls where I pick up a staff already on the ground, but don't tend to do them with staff already in hand.

Vlad


How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?

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Lapaire
Lapaire

member
Location: Hadley, MA, USA
Member Since: 8th Jan 2002
Total posts: 36
Posted:Hey Ky!

I love doing rolls with staff

Wish I could show you some of the new stuff I've been doing with staff and rolls, but I guess a description will have to do;

try a horizontal sword flourish while rolling backward. If you get this right, you can time it so as to get the staff to continue a full sweep under and over you while doing the back roll without stopping the staff. I've yet to try this with fire but I bet it would look wicked.

Could I bother you to explain that thing where you keep the staff behind you in really dumbed-down language?


When there is no place that you have decided to call your own then no matter where you go you are always heading home -Soseki

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Okay..... start standing up. now, a normal backward roll would have you fall back and roll over with your head to one side and one leg tucked/one leg straighter.... none of this changes. but normally your hands will be sort of in front of you in the middle of your body.

what you need to do is either put your hands slightly behind you and fall so the first part of your bakc that hits is at least high middle (which imo would be hard and prolly hurt but if you have enough expierience u could prolly do it, i just can't.) the other option is to fall fairly normally, just have your hands slightly below where your ass is...obviously you eventually want a staff there....

you'll roll over and come up with the staff behind you. it could look smooth, it could look classy, it's probably harder per amount of audience appeal than is strictly worth it but still a very sick idea and i hope that it works well for people. I'm not that comfortable with my back rolls yet to try something taht's abnormal like that.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:oh, vlad? rolls are for falling i agree. but some of us can't do decent jumps or flips yet, and rolls still look cool to the audience. i would love to hear more about jump/flip/kick adaptions though, and also lapaire you have some cool jump/kick adaptions i'd love to know how to do.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Define the roll that you want to do. Are you diving head first over something or are you just turning summersaults in your backyard. There are many many variations to what you could do, and what you do is how you know where you place your weapon.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Locofly
member
Location: New York (its not as cool as y...
Member Since: 21st Jun 2002
Total posts: 62
Posted:i like to spin poi while doing the hurricane kick from street fighter.

From the makers of soylent green.

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:heh heh locofly u rock!
has anyone tried a 'no-shadow kick'?
like with most of the harder technical stuff, they need too much power to look graceful, and you need to stretch for like 6 months to get there!
people complain me no graceful no more cus i emphasise speed, technical and martial.

i agree.

imho the best rolls for weapons are the ones that require no hands to roll, so that your arms are free to weild, block or pick nose

a roll is a tucked maneuvour on the ground. eg. samurai roll, backroll, dinner roll .
a somersault is a tucked maneuvour in the air. e.g. sidesaults, backsault, in-sault .

i can only help in what i can do, so i can't help in somersaults!
if anyone is curious on the easiest ways to learn some of the more not-so-basic moves mentioned here e.g. 540 kicks

Kyrian, your enthusiasm for new moves is inspirational, man!

vlad, what style of martial arts are you talking about, mate? i'm an afficionado and would love to find out - i can't guess what it is.. my guess is krav maga, pragmatic, vicous style. I'm of the opinion that jumping as a waste of energy and rolls for falling are dangerous generalisations. if you believe that jumping is a waste of energy, then 540 kicks leave you open for most of the move, especially your planted foot. capoeira is meant to look open because of mandinga (deception) so all the au's that you mention are very open.
but they look nice i'd love to see you at the home of poi gathering in 2004! we'll perform a roda!! what say you, mate?


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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LuNcHbOx...(Aka. Nathan)-un-single
member
Location: beneath a cloak of self-tortur...
Member Since: 3rd Oct 2002
Total posts: 536
Posted:i wonder if any one ever tried rolling forward on the staff....ya know like.....
*does roll on staff and stalls in the air trying to land....*
ermm....a little help here....
ewok???.....pleze help me...

Non-Https Image Link

*ewok*
busyyyy!!!!
hehehe....like i'm listening to that idiot....


-LuNcHbOx, Aka. Nathan...Give a man to fish, and that man knows where to come for more fish...Teach a man to fish and you have just destroyed your market base...

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Lapaire
Lapaire

member
Location: Hadley, MA, USA
Member Since: 8th Jan 2002
Total posts: 36
Posted:Ky, this is kind of a cop-out but you might try neokarate.net for how-to's on kicky stuff. I can't give you a how-to here because it would take too much space (and get more than a little off topic), but if you want I'll pm or email you.

I'm so flattered that you like my kicking moves.
=)


When there is no place that you have decided to call your own then no matter where you go you are always heading home -Soseki

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Maximus
member
Location: Upland, CA., USA
Member Since: 13th Dec 2001
Total posts: 250
Posted:Let Maximus help.
In karate, the family of rolls, breakfalls, and groundfighting techniques is called newaza.
The forward roll (mae-ukemi) can be done straight ahead, you just have to make a couple of adjustments. First, you have to switch the hand positions. Without picking up or rolling with a weapon, the right hand is up and the left hand is down (doing nothing). With a weapon, The left hand goes up and makes contact with the ground near the right shoulder as you roll over. The right hand goes down and to the left in the area known as the lower left gate in wu shu or septime and quinte in western fencing. The right hand is held down with the web of the hand inverted. If the staff is on the ground, approach it diagonally, where it's left end is up and the right end down. This way the shaft fits perfectly into your hand and you cleanly miss both fireballs while rolling.
Work your way up to this move by starting in a kneeling position.
I also do this as an attacking move in Isaac's and my firesword routine and I do it with a real cutlass in my pirate reenactement group. You can channel the momentum of the roll into a fierce squalembrato mandritti as you rise up off the ground.
I think I do the backward roll (ushiro-ukemi) the same way as described above. I hold the shaft in my right hand, horizontally, between my butt and the heels of my feet. As I roll over I supinate the shaft out in front.
(Lapaire--combining this with a tonda? Brilliant, mate!)
Here's one of my signature moves: the "Look Ma, No Hands roll."
It's a backwards roll with a firestaff; no hands. You shove the grip into your navel as you bend double going into the rear roll. Fold your fat and muscle over the shaft and keep it there. You have to keep your knees up to hold it in, so you have to use both hands to help push yourself over as you hit the ground.
You have to quickly reverse your arm positions to guide yourself if you want to continue rolling. I usually do about three in a roll. Less if I start laughing. It is a ridiculous move.
Wasabe, bender?


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jonathan
enthusiast
Location: new zealand
Member Since: 24th Nov 2001
Total posts: 210
Posted:ninjitsu has all manner of flips and rolls and the like that would be pretty nifty for you guys to put into a spinning routine!

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Lapaire
Lapaire

member
Location: Hadley, MA, USA
Member Since: 8th Jan 2002
Total posts: 36
Posted:As long as this thread has wandered into martial arts tricks I don't feel so bad now about inserting a couple of quick, easy, extremely flashy moves;

-In capoeira there is a move where you plant one hand into a sort of one-hand-stand and then kick over your head. You can do this by planting one end of the staff (as if to do a pole vault) and then kicking over your head with the feet (the staff will be at an angle)

-Even easier, plant the staff as if to do a pole vault and then do a "handspring" by pushing off with it. (you don't have to be able to do a handspring for this, just a cartwheel, really, it comes out to the same thing.)

-Also, a spinning axe kick to a full split is a damn good performance finisher, in my opinion (You don't have to be able to do a full split, kneeling or a low wide stance look good too)

-Ky, here is the kicky thing you liked; jump in the air and do a kick and use the momentum of the kick to bring your other leg up to kick high (double snap kick). Once you can do that, try it while turning, so that your legs trace double crescents in the air. Now hold a staff in one hand by the end and do the one-handed weave but grip it at the end so it looks like a sword flourish. When it comes to the same side of the body that holds the staff, spin a full circle and jump, strike horizontally using the momentum of the staff, and then do your double kick before you hit the ground. The staff continues moving in the horizontal plane and can be easily transitioned into a wrap or whatever. This move is a LOT easier to do than explain.

Anyone know any cool staff stuff for jumping and richocheting off of walls?


When there is no place that you have decided to call your own then no matter where you go you are always heading home -Soseki

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:thx. will try when time allows. My sensei wants to learn to spin fire. isn't that wicked?

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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