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jeremy


member
Location: australia

Total posts: 13
Posted:has anyone had experience with mixing potassium permanganate and kero??? ive read a few msds'and i think it will be ok but if anyone has any input im listening!

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Mark P
BRONZE Member since Oct 2001

Mark P

old hand
Location: Bath, England

Total posts: 1031
Posted:Hi jeremy,

This has been discussed in quite a lot of detail in previous posts.

Here is how to do a search :

Click on Technical Discussion.
Under the button that says 'New Post' click search.
In 'Search Word' box put 'coloured'
and in 'Search In' box put 'Title Only'

Then you should see a list of 9 topics that discuss flame colouration

Hope this helps,

Mark P


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jeremy


member
Location: australia

Total posts: 13
Posted:thanx but i was actually wanting to know if anyone had experience with these to chemicals specifically but thankyou for your input, some of those posts helped anyway! quote:Originally posted by Mark P:
Hi jeremy,

This has been discussed in quite a lot of detail in previous posts.

Here is how to do a search :

Click on Technical Discussion.
Under the button that says 'New Post' click search.
In 'Search Word' box put 'coloured'
and in 'Search In' box put 'Title Only'

Then you should see a list of 9 topics that discuss flame colouration

Hope this helps,

Mark P


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Mark P
BRONZE Member since Oct 2001

Mark P

old hand
Location: Bath, England

Total posts: 1031
Posted:Personal experience with Chemicals :

I have tried using Lithium Chloride, Boric Acid and Strontium Nitrate for flame colourations.

The best results were from Boric acid runs (green flames) but the strength of the flames was fairly weak

The main problem with using these salts for colouration of flames is that they wont dissolve in kero/paraffin you have to use either ethanol or methylated spirits. These fuels produce a flame that is a lot weaker than that produced by kero/paraffin and therefore it dosent look nearly as good.

Here is a link to a couple of Boric Acid pictures and you can see what I mean : Boric Acid Boric Acid and Paraffin soaked doubles so that you can make a comparism

Another thing about Boric Acid is that every time we have used it we have all ended up with nasty coughs so we only use it for special occasions now

Hope this helps
Mark P


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jeremy


member
Location: australia

Total posts: 13
Posted:thanks mark! i will let you know how it goes quote:Originally posted by Mark P:
Personal experience with Chemicals :

I have tried using Lithium Chloride, Boric Acid and Strontium Nitrate for flame colourations.

The best results were from Boric acid runs (green flames) but the strength of the flames was fairly weak

The main problem with using these salts for colouration of flames is that they wont dissolve in kero/paraffin you have to use either ethanol or methylated spirits. These fuels produce a flame that is a lot weaker than that produced by kero/paraffin and therefore it dosent look nearly as good.

Here is a link to a couple of Boric Acid pictures and you can see what I mean : Boric Acid Boric Acid and Paraffin soaked doubles so that you can make a comparism

Another thing about Boric Acid is that every time we have used it we have all ended up with nasty coughs so we only use it for special occasions now

Hope this helps
Mark P


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glowshow


member
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 406
Posted:Send a Personal Message to Supafly off this board. He has experimented with everything possible involving colored flames. I believe he said that the Potassium Permanganate sucked. It didn't show up very good or something along those lines. Might want to ask him, though. I do know that you will hae to use denatured alcohol to dissolve it, though.

FREE TIBET!!! (with the purchase of a 44 oz. drink)What do you want to be when you grow up?I want to be a kid again!I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~~~J~~~

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Ender


member


Total posts: 68
Posted:are any of those chemicals safe to have in your mouth?

I don't do fire poi nor do i breath fire, but I imagine it would be interesting to shoot out a green flame while still using the normal bright fire for your poi.


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Not only aren't the additives good to put in your mouth. But neither are any of the fuels that you'd use to get the additives to show that color.

Bad idea.


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Ender


member


Total posts: 68
Posted:ok then completely ignore my last post ;D

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Bram....


member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess

Total posts: 1551
Posted:What I want to know is ne safe chemicals that will properly mix with kero/parrifin for breathing. Some depressent that is hard to get will dissolve in kero and gives a purple flame but i don't know what it is called

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:Lithium.

HoP Posting Guidelines
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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Bram....


member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess

Total posts: 1551
Posted:NO it isn't lithium

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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Mark P
BRONZE Member since Oct 2001

Mark P

old hand
Location: Bath, England

Total posts: 1031
Posted:<puts on dress to get into Theater mode>

"Oh Yes it IS!"

No I was only joking I would be careful using any inorganic salts to colour flames for breathing, you need to check out the MSDS safety sheets as most of them are dangerous.

I know for a fact that Lithiun Chloride is a strong anti depressant type drug and when it is in tablets it will be in much lower concentrations than you need to colour a flame. The other chemical I use to colour flames is boric acid which is coincidently used as rat poision - am I going to put that inmy mouth? - Am I *$%! - It is bad enough when you are spinning with wicks that have been saoked in it, it seems to give a nasty cough.

Oh well that is my 2 peneth worth and I highly recomend you find out FULL information on anything that you are going to use.

P Play safe people

BTW : someone was talking about using potassium permangenate to colour flames earlier if it does work which I dont think it will have a second thought - if you get KMnO4 on any of your clothes it is gauranteed to stain, as is the same for skin and it will make a mess around.


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Bram....


member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess

Total posts: 1551
Posted:Where is our mad scientist when we need him?

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Lithium is a depressant and hard to get but gives a nice red flame as has been discussed eighty bafriggin zillion times.

Potassium burns purple as stated in the article on THIS website.

This HAS been discussed. The colors of the metals NEVER changes. Here is the section of the article...

*****

Boric acid, which gives a green/blue flame. This is sold in pharmacies in powdered form as it has antiseptic properties.

Lithium chloride, which gives a nice red flame. Tricky to get as it's an anti-depressant.

Copper chloride, which gives a good green/blue flame.

Indium, expensive and hard to find, gives a deep violet.

Other which are theoretically possible, but might not give such good results are:
Strontium compounds - red.

Calcium compounds - orangy-red.

Barium compounds - green.

Potassium chloride - a purple flame.

White gas (liquid gas e.g. Colemans camping fluid) - a white flame.

Dry gas (as above) - a blue flame.

*****

The only thing that burns purple would be a potassium compound. This has all been covered. Potassium (Anything) should burn purple. I use potassium nitrate or chloride. It burns purple. I burn it in my class. I have burned it. My students burn it. We all agree that it looks purple.

This is getting old.


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Bram....


member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess

Total posts: 1551
Posted:But is any form of it safe to put in your mouth

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Ug... by doing a search on the "internet" I found that Potassium Chloride is present in many "salt substitutes" such as nusalt

Therefore it is sold in edible format as well. I do not know, nor does anyone else, if this format will dissolve in whatever fuel you want to dissovle it in.

Since many "sodium substituted" simply use potassium chloride rather than sodium chloride, it's a good place to look.

So to answer your question: Yes, potassium chloride is edible. Yes, as stated a billion times before on this site, potassium chloride burns purple. Yes, you should be able to get some at your local grocery store. No, I, nor anyone else in the world, knows if it is soluable in kerosine in the store bought format.

Therefore: NO, it is unsafe to dissolve anything in kerosine and then put it in your mouth because kerosine, itself, is toxic.


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audax
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

audax

freelance bum
Location: Upstairs, Australia

Total posts: 286
Posted:but people breathe kero anyway...
and the salts don't dissolve in kero but metho...
I have seen someone breathe Boric acid in metho. Yes it was cool but he wasn't looking too good afterwards. Absolutely not recommended.
Anywhere that sells aproduct that has an MSDS printed for it should be able to supply you with one. Find out what a MSDS before you try any of this stuff.
Some moderators seem to think that this subject has been covered but a link to a list of chemical names with no details on what they are and how to get them, how to make the fuel mix work, any more info so that people who want to give it a go have to spend weeks playing mad professor to get it to happen.
Maybe it's time for the info to be compiled and write an article


UYI wink OLDSKOOL

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Tracered


member
Location: Salem, Oregon USA

Total posts: 71
Posted:quote:Originally posted by NYC:
Ug... by doing a search on the "internet" I found that Potassium Chloride is present in many "salt substitutes" such as nusalt

Therefore it is sold in edible format as well. I do not know, nor does anyone else, if this format will dissolve in whatever fuel you want to dissovle it in.
NuSalt will NOT dissolve into kerosene, coleman fuel, or any other fuel I have found besides ethanol or methanol. I've experimented with it extensively, even taken a mortar and pestel to it to grind it into the finest of powders, and never had good coloration results with the flame. IMHO, nuSalt doesn't work.

~peace~


An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind - Mahatma Gandhi

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trintek


member
Location: San Antonio, TX

Total posts: 107
Posted:quote: NuSalt will NOT dissolve into kerosene, coleman fuel, or any other fuel I have found besides ethanol or methanol. I've experimented with it extensively, even taken a mortar and pestel to it to grind it into the finest of powders, and never had good coloration results with the flame. IMHO, nuSalt doesn't work. It doesnt dissolve WELL in other fuels.. I have used it on a few occasions with everclear, but, what good is that really.. after blowing 5-7 flames i had a nice buzz... which basically means to me, time to pack up and join the party as i wont blow flames while wasted, anymore of them and i wouldve been drunk.. the flame was a bluish purple, which was a nice change from the orange of paraffin but, at the same time... look at what it cost... couldve performed all night if i didnt try that mix.. on the plus side, it looks decent on torches if you mix it with denatured alcohol, and didnt give me the headache or cough associated with using boric acid in a closed air setting.

just my two cents, feel free to refund them


We bleed the same blood, We cry the same tears, We have the same fears, We pass the same years, We see the same stars, Under the same skies, We pass the same time, We all live and die

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Supafly
BRONZE Member since Apr 2001

TNT
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 173
Posted:This site sells all sorts of chemical additives.

http://www.skylighter.com/mall/chemicals.asp
br>
Please, visit the articles forum and read up on safety tips, colour changes, and chemical properties before proceeding. Here is the link:

http://www.skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/articles.asp
br>
I am in no way affiliated with this site or trying to promote or endorse their products. This just happens to be the place I use in the U.S. There are probably plenty of other places in other countries that you can use too.

Also, please be careful if you do end up using these additives. I've used them in performances at clubs before with no problems. Please, as always, take the proper safety precautions when using. Enjoy!


Fear the evil monkey!

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Good stuff Supafly. Dang, I'd love to see your show.

It's nice to see people who've actually used this stuff posting. Good stuff kids.

Explosives shipped anywhere in the US... Hrmm... how does that somehow NOT sound like a good idea.


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Supafly
BRONZE Member since Apr 2001

TNT
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 173
Posted:Thanks NYC. Yeah, I was kind of worried about posting that site due to the fact that some not-so-smart person might blow themselves up. But then again, one can get hurt just crossing the street nowadays. If any of you would like to try something really cool, buy some Titanium Flakes and roll your wicks in it. Titanium Flakes are used in fireworks to create the crackling bright white sparks. You get instant sparkly poi that lasts for several minutes and once it burns off, your wicks are still burning full flame. Big advantage over steel wool. The sparks only shoot out for about two feet though so it isn't as spectacular as steel wool. I've used that at spinning at clubs before too.

My favorite is still Lithium Chloride though. I like the pretty red color it gives. Boric acid is just too weak to be impressive. Oh, and I wouldn't recommend using any of these chemicals on your Kevlar wicks as they tend to dry them out quickly and make them rot faster. I only use them on cheap towel wicks that I throw away after two or three burns.


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audax
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

audax

freelance bum
Location: Upstairs, Australia

Total posts: 286
Posted:Supafly, do you meen to say you've burned Lithium Chloride with twirling apparatus? because all these theoretical ideas that chemicals burn colours in science classrooms is getting tiring. The suggestion that Barium compounds gives a nice green colour is alarming because some of them are explosive/poisonous or both. Some release toxic gases when burnt. I think that pointing out Barium compounds as a possible fuel colourant is irresponsible to the same degree as saying that fire breathing is cool, so just give it a try.

Nusalt doesn't work for you because it's 50/50 Sodium Chloride and Potassium Chloride. So you have two potential colourants working against each other in the fuel. None of these additives work in Kero/Paraffin because they already have additives that make the flame bright and easy to see. Some Metho won't work because it's only 95% and the last 5% are denaturants which are probably inhibiting colour action. Seems to me that 100% Metho with 100% chemical salt additive on a clean wick unexposed to other fuels or chemicals is the only way these fuels will give a colour. Then there is the fact that some of these chemicals aren't soluble, or just not in Metho. And has anyone ever got any other chemical than Boric Acid to work? Maybe only Acids work in this.

More as I work it out. Comments welcome from all


UYI wink OLDSKOOL

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Yeah, audax... I figured all that out about 6 months ago... Posted on it too. Not like anyone read them though.

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hairsmythe


member
Location: Oakland, CA

Total posts: 20
Posted:I tried to do colored/coloured flame last week without the success that I was looking for..... I wanted purple flame and I managed to get my hands on a huge bottle of potassium sulfate that I mixed with denatured alcohol and applied to towel wicks. It looked very cool and was definitely another color.... something of the toasted marsh mellow family, sort of orangish-pinkish tone. I forgot to get pictures but I plan to try again tomorrow with table salt to see if yellow will work. If anyone has comments, feedback or suggestions all are appreciated.

Love ,
Laura (aka hairsmythe)


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Supafly
BRONZE Member since Apr 2001

TNT
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 173
Posted:Yes, Lithium Chloride with denatured alcohol (100%) gives a nice red flame. Strontium works a lot better though and gives a brighter red color. Only used it on towel wicks though and NEVER for an indoor performance. Make sure to stir thoroughly to get the salt dissolved as much as possible before dipping wicks. Since denatured alcohol is the base, the flame is not all that bright. Also, never tried anything with any Barium compounds, that's just asking for trouble.

Still looking for the correct combination for purple flames myself but haven't found it yet. If anyone gets good results, please post your methods. Thanks.

[ 02 October 2002, 07:50: Message edited by: Supafly ]


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swiftythefireguy


member
Location: abbotsford , bc canada

Total posts: 61
Posted:something to the side i was camping all summer and we had fire everynight well any ways this guywe met said that if you take piece of copper pipe oh say 3/4 in diameter and shove some every day run of the mill garden hose inside the pipe and throw it in the fire it will make it change colour at first i thought B.S. but then decided to try it out yeah man was this cool the whole find changed to the craziest blues,greens,reds and oranges i have ever seen who ever took the time and imagination to figure this out should be involved in the space program, probably the same guy who discovered whippits could this be done on staff or poi ? if not it's sure a great party trick especialy if you got game ie .you pray to fire god and he turns fire green blah blah blah

swifty out


dont ever ask me whta time it is ?where are we? or are we there yet? because the time is now!we here !and we wil never be there !

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