Raphael96SILVER Member
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA


Posted:
Yesterday I learned a move, but nobody could tell me the (im)proper name.

Starting from a butterfly, you turn your elbows outwards as you would when doing a pass behind your back, but the poi move between your arms and your body.

Is this an interior butterfly?

Raph

DomDomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
I prefer the word 'internal' myself, but I'm just argumentative

bluecatbluecatgeek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere


Posted:
have you seen sage on col2? she does a same-direction one of these really smooth.


but i think i've always called these moves 'inside' moves.

sorry


R

Holistic Spinner (I hope)


AlfredAlfredSILVER Member
Altyd Brandend
149 posts
Location: Orange County, California, USA


Posted:
HUH? *tilts head and makes confused face* Can someone draw me a picture of this please...i dont understand where the poi go.

R

Spinning makes my world go round


Raphael96SILVER Member
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by bluecat:
have you seen sage on col2? she does a same-direction one of these really smooth.


but i think i've always called these moves 'inside' moves.

sorry


R

Nothing to be sorry about! I'm glad to put a name to the move.

Raph

DeepSoulSheepDeepSoulSheepGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland


Posted:
Whoops, bluecat answered my question before I asked it.

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.


MikeIconMikeIconGOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA


Posted:
Wouldnt that be a buzzsaw butterfly in wall plane?

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me


colemancolemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
i believe that if arashi were here he'd call it an inverted butterfly.

its all the same thing though.

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


JinXmushroom collector
208 posts
Location: JHB, South Africa


Posted:
i think its called an inverted buzzsaw butterfly

i do this move split time and ive been told its an inverted buzzsaw.

JinX : If it doesnt kill you it makes you stronger

The spin cycle on the washing machine does not make earth worms dizzy.
It will however make cats dizzy and cats throw up twice their bodyweight when dizzy.


DutSILVER Member
lurker
380 posts
Location: Nashville, TN, USA


Posted:
I'm bumping this to get some feedback... Would you guys rather call this the 'buttersaw' or the 'buzzfly'?? I've been messing with several of these and need some consistent terminology so I can try to talk about this to someone in text.



Does anyone have a suggested way of telling which is forward and which is reverse?? I get into these from, say, a forward b-fly by, for example, turning 90 degrees to the right and leaving the right hand in place. Can I arbitrarily claim that one as 'forward' and the left side as 'reverse'?? They're identical, so it's basically a toss-up unless someone has already laid down the law, or there's some established principle for telling them apart that I don't know.



I also go into a crossed version by fully inversing (not just a 'barrel roll') the left hand *before* turning right (in the "forward" example). you can push both hands in the uncrossed version through the buzzsaw plane into the crossed version, as well. I find it a bit easier in split-time. Anything else I should be trying? I mean, I've got basically this, and the b-fly weave version of this -- or would this be considered a fountain and not a weave? the crosser weave/fountain is next, but I think it involves both hands isolating and possibly anti-spinning in some fashion, so it may take a while. Anyone got suggested places to go from here, or know what terms I can search for to find more? This thread was all I got for 'buzzsaw butterfly', though.



-- dut
EDITED_BY: Dut (1100828676)

DutSILVER Member
lurker
380 posts
Location: Nashville, TN, USA


Posted:
ooh. i reply to myself. i'm cool like that.



anyways, i searched again for "butterfly buzzsaw" and found what I'm looking for, mostly.

[Old link]



basically Coleman calls these 'scissors', and Josh might be referring to this as the 'alternate buzzsaw'. It says he can 5beat TTN into and out of them, but now I'm wondering if you could thread the crosser version. Thread the Buttersaw? I'm, like, SO there.



-- dut
EDITED_BY: Dut (1100828566)

spiralxspiralxveteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK


Posted:
Written by: Dut

I'm bumping this to get some feedback... Would you guys rather call this the 'buttersaw' or the 'buzzfly'?? I've been messing with several of these and need some consistent terminology so I can try to talk about this to someone in text.



I call it "butterfly buzzsaw" lol, not much help. Inverted butterfly works though.

Written by: Dut

Does anyone have a suggested way of telling which is forward and which is reverse?? I get into these from, say, a forward b-fly by, for example, turning 90 degrees to the right and leaving the right hand in place. Can I arbitrarily claim that one as 'forward' and the left side as 'reverse'?? They're identical, so it's basically a toss-up unless someone has already laid down the law, or there's some established principle for telling them apart that I don't know.



Nope, I've had the same problem with butterfly weaves, but at least there there's an obvious choice because of the hand movements. I think it's perhaps best to distinguish between "L fwd/R rev" and "L rev/R fwd" (from your perspective), but even then only in certain situations.

"Moo," said the happy cow.


arashiarashiPooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx


Posted:
by my definitions, if your handles are pointing at each other it's inverted. if they're pointing at your waist it's inside. if one is normal or inside, and the other is inverted it's half inverted.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


DutSILVER Member
lurker
380 posts
Location: Nashville, TN, USA


Posted:
ooh. first off, i abide by the British Treatise and only use 'inverted' to describe spinning while one's head is below one's arse. the noun form I go with for inside the arms stuff is 'inverse'. 'inversion' 'inversing', whatever... have the Inverted Insiders finally won out??



and thanks arashi. if you use 'half-inverse' for both, that's trouble, right? I use 'half' for describing 180 degrees of arc. So a 'barrel roll' is half-inverse to me. Does 'inside-inverse' and 'outside-inverse' make sense to you? I guess inverse gets even worse when you try to talk about forward and reverse as well. gag!



I guess it's back to hyphenation to straighten it out.. I'll probably stick with 'butterfly-buzzsaw', 'inside-inverese' and 'outside-inverse' here, at least.



making little flowers where one arm is antispun in the wall plane looks neat with these. horizontal buttersaw is tripping me out a bit... i think it *wants* to isolate. can anyone do this in any plane behind their back? any suggestions on how to get into it without knowing how to do the BTB buzzsaw first? wink



-- dut
EDITED_BY: Dut (1100887584)

arashiarashiPooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx


Posted:
why change established names now that we all understand each other? what's the point? i had to spend a lot of time talking terms already when i brought these to the hop world and there's a lot more moves to come and i don't want to get more confused than i already am. the word inversion is a plane relationship term, it still means upside down, but in terms of two planes relative to each other, regardless of their axis postition in space. it also could be described as "inside out." which inverted can also mean. google image for "inverted" spherical functions and you'll probably run across some mathematical diagrams that look like the circles described when "inverting" a move.



i use "inside" because the regular way of spinning is "outside" the hands, and the insides and their crossovers are still related in a mirror way to the outsides and their crossovers. when we get to atomics you'll see why.

i'm not offended in any way and i'm glad you like these moves but keep in mind i made up these words for reasons...



why would you transpose "half" onto inversion which is a relationship description when you really mean "half" a circle or half a beat?

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


arashiarashiPooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx


Posted:
whoops dut i just read the link from your post. i thought you meant something else. disregard all that whining.

i call those "open" inversions

or "uncrossed"

though it's easier to ball them buzzsaw or buttersaw when you're talking about doing em right there constsantly but using it as a classification can run you into language problems with more complex stuff. see inverted weaves thread for details

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


arashiarashiPooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx


Posted:
plus i think raphael is talking about insides and now dut is talking about open inversions/buzzsaws. so i was talking about something else than you dut but the theories still apply- this thread is officially getting too confusing.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


DutSILVER Member
lurker
380 posts
Location: Nashville, TN, USA


Posted:
yup.. sorry, my search hit on JinX's post. i read up to raph and thought that's what he meant. i made a few comments on the insides thread, too... there's no particular mention of crossed 'buzzsaw-butterflys' there, and I think that's an outside move, technically... can there be a one move family, or is there still more out there on this family?

I see what you mean by your use of 'half-inverse'. With the butterfly, though you can take either hand "half inverse", right? so you already have to say "and then the right poi goes inside as the left poi spins inverse...".
You wouldn't really say "right poi goes half inside as the left poi spins half inverse" would you? In my mind it would be implied, don't you think? So I use the word 'half' elsewhere without confusing myself, at least. I think I explicitly say half=180 degrees everywhere I use it.

i purposely over-used the word 'half' to be funny in that other thread. >_< As long as your notation system describes everything you can envision well enough to relate it to others any way possible it's pretty amazing. I'm interested in your Maths section above. 'inverted spherical functions'? Is this from 'differential geometry'? are you speaking of rotational symmetry or planar symmetry? please PM me links and dirty slide-rule videos. wink

-- dut

arashiarashiPooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx


Posted:
lower left: spherical inversion

love the sphere.

even better

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


DutSILVER Member
lurker
380 posts
Location: Nashville, TN, USA


Posted:
seriously.. now that I think about it, it is the difference between rotational and planar symetries... to me, inverted is the guy in the mirror under me... if my hands were where his hands are for my forward weave, i'd be doing the the reverse weave. i'm thinking of inversion as the guy in the mirror across from me.. his poi are on planes that would be inside if my hands were where his are.

are you thinking of 'inverse' as the guy in the mirror on the floor under him?? rotating 180 forward gives you 'inverted inverse' in my opinion... here's a test - is the inside butterfly from the forward bfly a forward or reverse bfly? i'm saying it's reverse... if yours is forward, then at least i know where you're coming from, but it's weird.

dude.. i'm making that spiral into an avatar... does this board allow flash avs.. ::drool::

-- dut

[Nx?][Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
The first one i couldent see how it aplied to poi, but the second one makes more sence. looks like the invert anti-spins i was not talking about anymore, tho it gives me an idead for crossing and uncrossing the planes mid move....

T wave

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


LeifLeifGOLD Member
member
56 posts
Location: College Station, Texas, USA


Posted:
Yes this would be an inverted butterfly if the butterfly is being performed paralel to the body but in the space between the arms and body.

What else can I say? TamingFire.Com


arashiarashiPooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx


Posted:
dut:

from fwd bfly, inside would be reverse.

inverted would be fwdesque, but with rev. properties when openend up. it's atomic, and it's on the singularity/polar axis, so it's both.

the "inverse" applies to the _planes_ axes as this is a planar position term. the axis is what is inverted. "inside" is a mirror of the normal outside spinning, and the axes are pointed the same direction during the crucial moment of crossover. the (subtle) difference btwn one kind of knot and another, if airwrapped.

leif:

uh oh. now someone that I've SHOWN the difference to doesn't get it. (edit:)which means my teaching method isn't good enough. is this just too confusing when applied to regular plane spinning or is it me? that's inside. you know, perhaps this stuff will all make more sense once atomics are more used and understood. like with rev earlier in the inverted weaves thread, the subtle differences aren't obvious until you play with atomic weaves more... but until then the differences arent' really evident.

nx?:

wow those are moving animations! my computer doesn't do that stuff so i hadn't realised... but the first one, on my screen as a still image, looks exactly like an inverted 3 beat weave done several times around the arms in a spiral, and isolated at the ends, and coming back again across the other direction... is that not what it looks like when it's moving?
EDITED_BY: arashi (1101164204)

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.


[Nx?][Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
LOL,

i see what you mean about that, is true. but when its moving the pointy bits at teh edges go inside the sphere and make a kind of torus with stuff sticking out the middle, thats why i found it incomprehensable, lol. I think if you did what you said above then dragon tounged it throught the middle of the plane it might work...

Ohh, that stuff about ivert atom thingy, hummm harrrr, ummmm, wow! eek I think like most of the good stuff its gonna take me four reading over a couple of months ot go 'ah ha!' but i think i know what your onnabout. but i recon that subtle diffrence has something to do with what were we talking about erlier on trinty ww links.

T wave

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


Raphael96SILVER Member
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA


Posted:
You know, I thought I understood the terminology in this thread and now I realize I was wrong! smile

Raph

LeifLeifGOLD Member
member
56 posts
Location: College Station, Texas, USA


Posted:
Written by: arashi


uh oh. now someone that I've SHOWN the difference to doesn't get it. (edit:)which means my teaching method isn't good enough. is this just too confusing when applied to regular plane spinning or is it me? that's inside.




Yeah I got outside a little after posting and was playing with it, and was like eek "thats not inverted!", and I never had the time to retract my statement. We will have to have some further conversations on the topic next time I see you.
Leif

What else can I say? TamingFire.Com


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