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Jaeden
GOLD Member since Sep 2001

member
Location: Edmonton

Total posts: 220
Posted:Towards the end of last summer, while I was at the peak of my practicing, I found myself doing all sorts of crazy beated weave/windmill/corkscrew things (never on purpose) while trying to master the 5-beat weave/4-beat windmill. Of course, this stuff all looked like crap and I couldn't keep it up for more then a couple full revolutions so when winter came and I was tired and sore I kinda quit working on anything beyond 5-beat weave and 4-beat windmill/corkscrew.

This did get me wondering about the 5-beat windmill though. I'm just curious as to why everyone on this site is allways talking about the 4-beat. Personally, when I do the windmill I add the wrist-twist infront of me but I have seen people who do it behind their head, and have also been able to sustain a 5-beat for more then a couple revolutions (though it's still quite sloppy and allways hurts upon termination, corkscrew is somewhat easier).

I guess the point of this post is: Why stop at 4, or is there something about the 5 that I have yet to discover?


The world is not out to get you but if you fight it you will be eaten alive

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DocLiquid


member
Location: Naples, Florida

Total posts: 97
Posted:5 beat windmill? As far as I know there is no such thing, and I'm fairly schooled in multiple rotations.

Being that a windmill is a 2 beat adding another rotation in front would be a "Triple" Windmill, and then another rotation behind your head would make it a "Quad", so where is this elusive fifth rotation you speak of?

PLUR
DOC


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Jaeden
GOLD Member since Sep 2001

member
Location: Edmonton

Total posts: 220
Posted:It works in much the same way that that the 5-beat weave does. To do a 4-beat windmill you need to cross your wrists at some point much the same way that you do with the weave. Then you bring it to the other side and unwind. The fifth beat occurs when you retwist your wrists instead of just putting them back to where they were.

Watching the 4-beat corkscrew in the poi-lesson page you can see how (well I think I can) he twists his wrists in much the same way as a 5-beat weave at the bottom but when he gets to the top his right wrist locks up when it would need to fold over to allow for the last beat.

Then again, I may be smoking crack. Gona hafta test this again when I get home (as previously mentioned, this was found before winter and that was 4-5 months ago).


The world is not out to get you but if you fight it you will be eaten alive

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic


Total posts: 4993
Posted:http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000592
< check this thread!

pk
http://uk.geocities.com/poi_in_the_park_sheffield
br>
[ 05 April 2002, 07:35: Message edited by: vain-ego pk ]


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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phunky


old hand
Location: Edmonton, AB

Total posts: 877
Posted:Because of the existance of a 7 beat weave there is such thing as a 6-beat windmill. I myself can do a 6-beat corkscrew (once every 50 tries )

A question you have to ask yourself though is, What is the difference between a HIGH executed 5-beat weave and a 5-beat windmill.

A windmill is a high executed figure 8. But at what point is it called a windmill. When your hand goes behind your head or when it is slightly over your shoulder?

Anyways, the naming of moves and what they are, are very obscere. Interpret how you will. But i do 5-beat windmills all the time then.

[ 05 April 2002, 08:04: Message edited by: phunky ]


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Jaeden
GOLD Member since Sep 2001

member
Location: Edmonton

Total posts: 220
Posted:The weave and windmill are actually fairly easy to distinguish. While a windmill does look like a high weave, the mechanics are different. For a weave you move your hands from side to side, the windmill is front to back. Now, you can get into wierd hybrids through rolling weaves onto your shoulders, but I'm talking about classic windmill position, right above your head, in 5 beats.

PK: Slightly different from that other thread as I'm talking about doing 5 beats infront and behind you without moving your feet or torso, just the poi and your wrists.

Phunky: That's kinda what I'm talking about. Why everyone refers to the 4-beat windmill as "the thing" like the 5-beat weave is.


The world is not out to get you but if you fight it you will be eaten alive

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic


Total posts: 4993
Posted:quote:
PK: Slightly different from that other thread as I'm talking about doing 5 beats infront and behind you without moving your feet or torso, just the poi and your wrists.

how you gonna do that then? 5 beats in front AND?? behind!!

5 or 6 beat windmill is just an extra beat if you can get your fingers positioned to make the beat or a wrap release movement. its that simple, just think about it. Same as a 5 or 6 beat corkscrew.. they all use the same typical hand movements as the weaves, but more easily executed than a weave.

windmill / high weave... same cos its all the same hand movements and positions just taken from another angle.

PK
http://uk.geocities.com/poi_in_the_park_sheffield


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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DocLiquid


member
Location: Naples, Florida

Total posts: 97
Posted:There is still no such evidence of a 5 beat windmill being possible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would love to be proven wrong and add it do my arsenal of moves, but highly doubt that as being a possibility!

A windmill is a sideways 2 BEAT! 2 BEATS! 2 BEATS!

another rotation would be 3 BEATS!
then unwrap behind and do another beat would be 4 BEATS behind, continue and it's a quad windmill!
It does not go beyond that! (Does it?)

*waits to be proven wrong*

PLUR
DOC


Let us Light up the Night

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phunky


old hand
Location: Edmonton, AB

Total posts: 877
Posted:quote: For a weave you move your hands from side to side, the windmill is front to back. I don't think you can define a windmill like that Jaeden because i weave front to back and not side to side. I always turn my body toward circle so i'm facing it and not with it. That's why it always looks like i'm tucking a 5-beat under my arm or bringing a 5-beat over my shoulder.

It's all in perception and all in body placement. But because you're body placement can change your perception of the move changes. An example would be a reverse btb-weave. Ok so you started out in reverse spinning and went into a weave from that. It's obviously and reverse weave right? Keep on doing that reverse btb weave but turn your head as far back as possible. With your head turned back why isn't this a forward btb weave then? Or just a forward weave depending on how you want to look at it.

Gotta love poi-theory

Anyways, I said it before, if a 7-beat weave is possible a 6-beat windmill is possible. Your arms are going to have to be flexible because of the 3 beats infront, there won't be much room to stick your head inbetween your arms.


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Jo


Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:I've thought about the difference between windmill and weave loads of times and couldn't think of an explaination, but they are different. If you try to weave above your head you can't do it naturally like the normal weave because your head gets in the way, hence you have to twist your wrists. I can't explain it but c'est la vie.

Don't matter anyway because infinite beat moves are possible by letting the string twist or by having very bendy wrists or whatever...

Jo.


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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glowshow


member
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 406
Posted:Phunky, it is my opinion (oh, god, here it goes! ) that the difference in weaves and windmills and forward and reverse lies in the orientation of the poi to the wrists. Just to be clear, this is NOT a flame. Just my $.02.

A weave is vertically oriented to how your wrists are positioned; i.e. if your wrists are side by side, the poi are spinning in a perpindicular plane. If try to make the plane shift to one that is horizontal, your wrists will automatically have to align themselves vertically to the ground to keep it working. Sure, the perspective of the circles looks like a corkscrew, but you are bent over to one side to get it to do that. Same as saying you do a 5-beat windmill all the time by executing a high 5-beat with your body turned to the side. It looks the same from the audiences perspective, but if you tried to straighten out your body, your wrists either collide at a bad angle and you hit yourself, or your body will automatically start to bend away to the side. It is a different wrist movement.

To get a good perspective, shorten up your strings, and do a corkscrew infront of your face (The Raver Style) look down at your wrists. If you replace your poi with a pen, you would draw a figure-8 over and over again. (That is how I teach people.) The movement is completely and totally in the wrists. If you switch to a weave, you'll notice that your wrists seize up a little bit, and more of the motion goes into the movement of the arms, with only little flicks to keep the momentum going. Now switch back. Your wrists are moving in different ways.

Here's a good example~~I'm sure everyone can do (or at least has a concept of) a summersault and a cartwheel, right. Now, can you do a summersault from left to right? Not unless you turn. Can you do a cartwheel forward? Not unless you turn. Same basic concept, but your body is oriented in different ways.

As far as reverse and forward motions go, it is in how your wrists and arms are moving. Not in the direction that the circles are spinning in relation to an observer. It is a forward weave if your lead hand crosses over top of the following hand. Top means that if the hands are palm down, the lead hand crosses palm down over the back of the following hand, and (because I knew it would be argued) if you really want to try doing it palms up, the back of the lead hand crosses over the palm of the following hand. If it is reverse, the lead crosses under the following hand.

quote:An example would be a reverse btb-weave. Ok so you started out in reverse spinning and went into a weave from that. It's obviously and reverse weave right? Keep on doing that reverse btb weave but turn your head as far back as possible. With your head turned back why isn't this a forward btb weave then? Or just a forward weave depending on how you want to look at it. So if you hang upside down and do a rev. BTB weave, then turn your head, are you doing a reverse weave? No, you are still doing a rev. BTB weave. Your body is just in a different position. The movements of your wrists determine what the move is. To the audience, it's all just circles.

Put a strained look on your face and do the weave really fast...


FREE TIBET!!! (with the purchase of a 44 oz. drink)What do you want to be when you grow up?I want to be a kid again!I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~~~J~~~

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glowshow


member
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 406
Posted:And Doc, even though I've never seen it, I'm sure a textbook 5-beat windmill is possible. It just seems like it would hurt too much to make it worth it. Assuming you don't use a wrap or the tangle method, you would really have to contort your arms. Doing it above your head would steal a lot of the length from your shoulders, and make it hard to pull off unless you have really broad shoulders and really long arms.

I wanted to add something about direction of windmills as well. Go back to what I said about holding a pen in your hand. If you draw a figure eight, your lead hand will go to the side on which it is attached to your body. So if your right hand is the first to go to the right, it would be a right hand windmill, and visa-versa. It takes the confusion out of clockwise and counter-clockwise. To you, if the right hand was the lead, the circles would be going counter-clockwise, but if someone was staring you in the face, the circles would be going clockwise.

Now that it has been all laid out, should we accept this as textbook definition, or does anyone feel differently? Let me know, because I have been typing for a while.


FREE TIBET!!! (with the purchase of a 44 oz. drink)What do you want to be when you grow up?I want to be a kid again!I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~~~J~~~

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phunky


old hand
Location: Edmonton, AB

Total posts: 877
Posted:Some good points, and you're right there is a difference i'm not denying that. But what is the EXACT point where one is a weave and one is windmill. It's very vague and sometimes the moves scew into each other. Personally, really don't think of poi as moves and combo's anymore but more where i can flail my arms with out hitting myself

quote: So if you hang upside down and do a rev. BTB weave, then turn your head, are you doing a reverse weave? No, you are still doing a rev. BTB weave. Your body is just in a different position. The movements of your wrists determine what the move is. To the audience, it's all just circles.

Put a strained look on your face and do the weave really fast...
Here's what i'm getting at here. Move's are all perception based on where you are.

Do a forward butterfly. Have your friend stand infront of you. Pass the poi to him. Have the poi changed? No. To you it's still forward but to your friend it's reverse.

*plays twilight zone music*



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jonathan


enthusiast
Location: new zealand

Total posts: 210
Posted:im with phunky on this one.
i think that while there are many varitions on chasing moves and many subtleties that can distinguish them, they are broadly speaking the same move. i think that if we can do say a 5 beat weave (or 7 ) then there is no reason not to do it as a windmill, or behind the back or whatever. with chasing moves the poi's are moving to all intents and purposes like a staff (depending on how many weaves you want to do). i think its a good point that wrist position can be different, but how much of that is due to personal preference? i mean when i poi, im usually pushing them around, but if i want more power or whatever then i can pull them, to people watching it looks the same, but the wrist is held differently. i think an important point that hasnt been brought up here is that if you walk and move your body around, then you might get away with a few extra weaves, and it makes for some interesting moments when you start turning around while your arms are crossed up in the 5 beat or whatever. this can be good for moving to weave-windmill weave ect, its quite cool how many beats seem to fall into place


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glowshow


member
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 406
Posted:Oh, I know completely what you are getting at. I wasn't saying that you are wrong. I was just making the distinguishment between what moves really are. Which matters more, what the move is to a spinner, or what it is to the audience? To an observer, it is just circles of alternating height and speed and placement. They don't know if it is a reverse 4 beat weave or a split time tuck turn. It's just pretty.

Which is why I made the point to make the distinction. The only people who care what a move is are the spinners, and for clarity, it is best to have one common term or set of rules to explain what you are doing. It makes it easier to explain something to someone. If you are doing a 5-beat weave up high with your body aimed to the side, it looks like a 5-beat windmill, but it isn't. It is just a 5-beat weave up high aimed to the side. And while it is a dazzling effect, it doesn't help if you are trying to tell someone how to do a 5-beat windmill. You know what I'm saying?

Example: Do a regular weave up high, and face your body 90 degrees into it so it looks like a 3-beat windmill. Now keep your wrists moving in the exact same way, and turn your body back straight. It doesn't work the same way, and you feel like you are pulling away really hard. That is why I say that wrist position being personal preference isn't entirely true. At least not with what I am talking about. It is a variation. Like I said, you can do a weave sideways by varying how you position your wrists and body, but that doesn't make it a corkscrew. Kind of like how you can achieve a split-time with a butterfly by leaning way over to the side, but all you are doing is a BF leaned over. It's a different move to actually split time it.

I am the same way about moves and combos, Phunky. I don't stop on any one thing. It's kind of one constant transition of moves, or what I like to call "flowing." But it does all break back down into moves and combos, and that is the easiest way to explain it to someone else. And even when I get into a groove, I can tell exactly what is a rev. weave movement or a windmill movement or a rev. windmill. I know exactly where they start and where they go into some other movement, and I would wager a hefty amount that you do as well. That is what I was saying. A forward weave motion is a forward weave motion, no matter what position you are in. And if you pass a forward butterfly to a friend, the moment you aren't spinning anymore, it becomes a rev. BF to him, because he is the one who is spinning. Your perception doesn't matter anymore, because you aren't in control of their movement. What is the difference between a reverse BF and a forward BF to an observer? Little to nothing, they both meet at the top and bottom. To a spinner? Hand positioning and direction.

Here is what I am saying. You have brought it up, Phunky, that there is a very blurred line as to what the difference is between moves and to what moves should be named. There are 4 stages of learning something:

Unconciously Incompetant (You don't know that you don't know shit, and you don't even know what shit is)
Conciously Incompetant (You realize you don't know shit, and you start to get an understanding of what shit is)
Conciously Competant (You know your shit, but you still have to think about shit constantly to make it work)
Unconciously Competant (You know a lot of shit, and never have to think about it. Shit just happens)

Hope you got a laugh out of that. The point is that even though some of us have reached that stage where we know a lot of what's to know and stop thinking about it, there are always new spinners coming up that need explanation and distinction. And it helps to tell them the right thing. Call it true to what it is, or then we have the problem of getting into poi "dialects."

No flames, no hard feelings. I'm not doing this out of arrogance. Just out of a want to simplify the understanding between us.

Feedback?


FREE TIBET!!! (with the purchase of a 44 oz. drink)What do you want to be when you grow up?I want to be a kid again!I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~~~J~~~

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phunky


old hand
Location: Edmonton, AB

Total posts: 877
Posted:I know what you mean, i'm just giving everyone something to think about. Challenge the old ideas and such. To tell you the truth im just arguing for the sake of arguing This section of the board has been dead for a while. The thing i like about this messageboard is everyone can argue as much as they want but it never resorts to name calling.

quote: And if you pass a forward butterfly to a friend, the moment you aren't spinning anymore, it becomes a rev. BF to him, because he is the one who is spinning. what happens if they're both toucing the poi?

It's like the question "Are you moving around the poi or are the poi moving around you?"

It can be both depending on how you look at, not one is right or wrong.


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glowshow


member
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 406
Posted:True. Well, let's keep it up. You and a couple of others on this board bring out the best in me. I like the challenge, because I learn more every day, and I am the most avid teacher you will probably meet. I really dig this!

FREE TIBET!!! (with the purchase of a 44 oz. drink)What do you want to be when you grow up?I want to be a kid again!I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~~~J~~~

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phunky


old hand
Location: Edmonton, AB

Total posts: 877
Posted:There is no spoon

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Jaeden
GOLD Member since Sep 2001

member
Location: Edmonton

Total posts: 220
Posted:As I have nothing better to do, I'll make another attempt at explaining this one (now that I can do it consistantly).

ok, for starters weave=windmill (remember that)

2 beat windmill, easy stuff. give your wrists a twist infront of you and now it's 3 beats. Ok, now to go from a 3 beat weave to 5 beat requires a bit more twisting (one on each side). So, back to the windmill. To go from 3-4 beats requires that you twist your wrists behind your head as well. Thinking about this from a weave view, you have done half the 5 beat. The other half comes in from giving an extra twist on the other side (in front of you). So, poi come infront wrists untwist then retwist and instead of going back over, just let the lead one go for another spin. Kinda feels like I'm wrapping my hand, except it just rubs across, never catches into anything resembling a wrap.

And something else. From a right hand (rh) leading windmill.
2 beat. rh leads over and back.
3 beat. lh leads over, rh back.
4 beat. lh leads over and back.
5 beat. rh leads over again, lh back. Basicly it's just doing a 5-beat motion in front of you (the way your left wrist wraps around your right).


The world is not out to get you but if you fight it you will be eaten alive

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glowshow


member
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 406
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Jaeden:
The weave and windmill are actually fairly easy to distinguish. While a windmill does look like a high weave, the mechanics are different. For a weave you move your hands from side to side, the windmill is front to back. Now, you can get into wierd hybrids through rolling weaves onto your shoulders, but I'm talking about classic windmill position, right above your head, in 5 beats. quote:ok, for starters weave=windmill (remember that)Why did you change your mind all of the sudden? Weave does not = windmill. They are similar, but not the same thing. That's over-generalizing it, big time. Like saying man=woman, or cartwheel=somersault. Similar, but fundamentally different.


FREE TIBET!!! (with the purchase of a 44 oz. drink)What do you want to be when you grow up?I want to be a kid again!I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~~~J~~~

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phunky


old hand
Location: Edmonton, AB

Total posts: 877
Posted:We're not going to get into this again are we?

There is a grey area when it comes to these moves where classifying them is difficult. There is no EXACT area where one becomes a weave or windmill. So what move it is over a certain point over your head is just your interpretation. So in the end even if's a weave or windmill, 5-beat windmill or 4-beat windmill it doesn't really matter because they're not that tough of moves anyways


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Phunky's poi theory and discussions like this really help me "see through the pattern" as jugglers say.

Anyhow, I think the windmill is a two beat move, like a corkscrew. The beats for windmills and corkscrews are even - two, four, six. While the beats for the weave are odd - three, five, seven. Which sound ok until someone says "what about two and four beat weaves?" I would call them figure-eight moves, and I haven't figured it out properly. Phunky? But, I think it's all in the cross over. Like when you start of the 3-beat weave you go under (or was that over) on one side before going into the over-under-out pattern.

I know I've really jumped into the deep-end here, but there are no right and wrong ways, it's like Phunky says - it is all about figuring out the moves out for yourself, so you understand. And this thread has helped me heaps in that regard. Cheers


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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