Forums > Technical Discussion > Self lighting staff?
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33 posts
33 posts
Posted:
Anyone ever tried this?
What I'm thinking is a staff with ends covered in the stuff that strike-anywhere matches use (phosphor?). You could then light your staff by striking on the ground (well concrete/tarmac anyway - grass probably wouldn't work!). As well as looking good it'd be a way to start with non-fire and only light part way through.
A couple of problems I can see:
1) Replacement of the ends. Would an arrangement to hold several matches which can just be replaced work?
2) How would the ends react to being dipped in fuel? Would they still strike properly?
Anyone ever tried this?
What I'm thinking is a staff with ends covered in the stuff that strike-anywhere matches use (phosphor?). You could then light your staff by striking on the ground (well concrete/tarmac anyway - grass probably wouldn't work!). As well as looking good it'd be a way to start with non-fire and only light part way through.
A couple of problems I can see:
1) Replacement of the ends. Would an arrangement to hold several matches which can just be replaced work?
2) How would the ends react to being dipped in fuel? Would they still strike properly?
addict
577 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
577 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
Posted:
If you're gonna use several matches, why not just use one that is not attached and light it normally? No reason to complicate things.
If you're gonna use several matches, why not just use one that is not attached and light it normally? No reason to complicate things.
Definition of poi- A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.
Ahnold discussing poi - "It is naht a toober!"
SILVER Member
enthusiast
274 posts
Location: Swansea, Ma (US), USA
enthusiast
274 posts
Location: Swansea, Ma (US), USA
Posted:
he's going for a 'mystical' effect. i'd sayd use soemthing like a capgun but stronger
he's going for a 'mystical' effect. i'd sayd use soemthing like a capgun but stronger
You know what I'm thinking about right now? That's right, Tacos!
GOLD Member
HOP's glowstick ambassador!!
128 posts
Location: Bay Area, California, USA
HOP's glowstick ambassador!!
128 posts
Location: Bay Area, California, USA
Posted:
Sounds kind of risky. I dont think it would actually work but its a good idea. Try it and tell us what happens.
Sounds kind of risky. I dont think it would actually work but its a good idea. Try it and tell us what happens.
missegyptology: "I just remember beingall off balance and unicycling really fast down to campus and the arabic was all blurred on the page"
^When Linz pulls an all nighter before Arabic class^
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,099 posts
Location: Bideford and Bath, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,099 posts
Location: Bideford and Bath, United Kingdom
Posted:
i seem to remember talkin to someone bout this, i think it would be possible but a trigger type mechanism would be better than matches,
watch miss congeniality to see a self lighting baton, (damn good film too
)
i seem to remember talkin to someone bout this, i think it would be possible but a trigger type mechanism would be better than matches,
watch miss congeniality to see a self lighting baton, (damn good film too
) UCOF "evolution: Poi -> stick -> hoops -> devil stick -> juggling club -> juggling ball -> crayons."
Supergroovalsticprosifunkstication
In other words, it's the thumps bump
BRONZE Member
enthusiast
205 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
enthusiast
205 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
Use the starter of fa gass barbie...
Can be found at most hardware stores.
Use the starter of fa gass barbie...
Can be found at most hardware stores.
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Posted:
I would say that if you're going to whack it on tarmac to start it, you're going to bugger up your wick fairly quickly. Probably better to have some kind of flame on-hand and just waft the dipped staff over that.
The only way I can think of this is like a kind of sherbert dib-dab thing... dip in fuel, dip in phosphor, then strike. If you'd already put the phosphor on, soaking it with fuel would just wash it off.
As for matches, you'd have to be bloody careful not to simply snap the match. I don't know if you've ever tried to do things gently with the end of your staff, but lighting a match mid-spin without it looking crap would probably be fairly hard. It would also probably go out before it lit the wick (definitely would if you were still spinning it), unless they were already warm from a previous burn (and remember, spinning them unlit will cool them very quickly) or you were indoors.
Also, if you aim to start non-fire then light halfway, it would be even more difficult to light because regardless of how well you spin-off, a full (well, half) session will take a lot of fuel off the wick.
Cool idea, sorry to be negative but I'm not sure matches are the way to go and I hope you can afford new wicks when your old ones fray to hell
I would say that if you're going to whack it on tarmac to start it, you're going to bugger up your wick fairly quickly. Probably better to have some kind of flame on-hand and just waft the dipped staff over that.
The only way I can think of this is like a kind of sherbert dib-dab thing... dip in fuel, dip in phosphor, then strike. If you'd already put the phosphor on, soaking it with fuel would just wash it off.
As for matches, you'd have to be bloody careful not to simply snap the match. I don't know if you've ever tried to do things gently with the end of your staff, but lighting a match mid-spin without it looking crap would probably be fairly hard. It would also probably go out before it lit the wick (definitely would if you were still spinning it), unless they were already warm from a previous burn (and remember, spinning them unlit will cool them very quickly) or you were indoors.
Also, if you aim to start non-fire then light halfway, it would be even more difficult to light because regardless of how well you spin-off, a full (well, half) session will take a lot of fuel off the wick.
Cool idea, sorry to be negative but I'm not sure matches are the way to go and I hope you can afford new wicks when your old ones fray to hell
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
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(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
403 posts
Location: the state of flux, Ireland
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
403 posts
Location: the state of flux, Ireland
Posted:
That type of chemical mix used on the match heads is pretty unstable in large quantities, it can explode if confined in to small a space and ignited.
You would probably be better of with an electrical ignition system using a 9V battery and some wire wool.
Then you wouldn't even need to strike it against the ground- just hold it out and watch it light up in front of you!
Also the 9V battery could be used to power some nifty LEDs and such if you want to start off with non fire effects
EDITED_BY: squarefish (1140616399)
That type of chemical mix used on the match heads is pretty unstable in large quantities, it can explode if confined in to small a space and ignited.
You would probably be better of with an electrical ignition system using a 9V battery and some wire wool.
Then you wouldn't even need to strike it against the ground- just hold it out and watch it light up in front of you!
Also the 9V battery could be used to power some nifty LEDs and such if you want to start off with non fire effects
EDITED_BY: squarefish (1140616399)
SILVER Member
enthusiast
274 posts
Location: Swansea, Ma (US), USA
enthusiast
274 posts
Location: Swansea, Ma (US), USA
Posted:
tho explotion are cool they are bad on the end of a staff.
tho explotion are cool they are bad on the end of a staff.
You know what I'm thinking about right now? That's right, Tacos!
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
the old dream....
along with the kero-compartment in the stafff for instant refuelling....
I'd advise a mechanism that can be triggered from the handle by using a button or such, some batteries sparking, whatever...
Putting phosphor on the end of a staff... dude, don't do and tell me please, or do and don't get close... grrrrrrrrrrr.... this stuff is poison! And if you have an accident with lit phosphor on somebodies skin.... hmmmm yummy burn...
the old dream....
along with the kero-compartment in the stafff for instant refuelling.... I'd advise a mechanism that can be triggered from the handle by using a button or such, some batteries sparking, whatever...
Putting phosphor on the end of a staff... dude, don't do and tell me please, or do and don't get close... grrrrrrrrrrr.... this stuff is poison! And if you have an accident with lit phosphor on somebodies skin.... hmmmm yummy burn...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
SILVER Member
enthusiast
274 posts
Location: Swansea, Ma (US), USA
enthusiast
274 posts
Location: Swansea, Ma (US), USA
Posted:
fire tom makes me giggle like a skool boy with adhd
fire tom makes me giggle like a skool boy with adhd
You know what I'm thinking about right now? That's right, Tacos!
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
adhd?
is this illegal?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ps: sorry, my previous post could have sounded arrogant to some... please x-cuse, it wasn't meant like that... I was just happy to see that my "pipe-dreams" are other peoples' too... makes me feel less lonesome...
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1140940421)
adhd?
is this illegal? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ps: sorry, my previous post could have sounded arrogant to some... please x-cuse, it wasn't meant like that... I was just happy to see that my "pipe-dreams" are other peoples' too...
makes me feel less lonesome... EDITED_BY: FireTom (1140940421)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
ohm mani padme hum
134 posts
Location: Worcester, MA, USA
ohm mani padme hum
134 posts
Location: Worcester, MA, USA
Posted:
it is also going to depend heavily on your fuel.
to self-ignite a staff dipped in kero is going to be significantly more difficult to self-ignite a staff dipped in white gas. if you are using white gas, which i think would be a necessity for something like this, thean you should be able to rig a barbecue lighter starter or some other flint system to create just a spark, hypothetically with the trigger near the center of the staff, and the resuting spark on the ends... because one good spark is all you will need to ignite the ends. if youre using kero it will take much more than a spark to ignite...
you could also just do something to the extent of dripping a little fule (very little )on the inside of your staff, and lighting one end normally, and the other end will self-ignite. i have only done this on accident, i dont actually know how safe it is, so someone please admonish me if it is totally stupid... you could always rig explosive/firework fusing through the center of your staff for the same effect, which may or may not be safer, though more expensive, and will have to be reset after every burn...
it is also going to depend heavily on your fuel.
to self-ignite a staff dipped in kero is going to be significantly more difficult to self-ignite a staff dipped in white gas. if you are using white gas, which i think would be a necessity for something like this, thean you should be able to rig a barbecue lighter starter or some other flint system to create just a spark, hypothetically with the trigger near the center of the staff, and the resuting spark on the ends... because one good spark is all you will need to ignite the ends. if youre using kero it will take much more than a spark to ignite...
you could also just do something to the extent of dripping a little fule (very little )on the inside of your staff, and lighting one end normally, and the other end will self-ignite. i have only done this on accident, i dont actually know how safe it is, so someone please admonish me if it is totally stupid... you could always rig explosive/firework fusing through the center of your staff for the same effect, which may or may not be safer, though more expensive, and will have to be reset after every burn...
SILVER Member
enthusiast
274 posts
Location: Swansea, Ma (US), USA
enthusiast
274 posts
Location: Swansea, Ma (US), USA
Posted:
adhd= attention defiset hyperactive disorder.. it's load of fun when you learn to contol it!
Written by: FireTom
adhd?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ps: sorry, my previous post could have sounded arrogant to some... please x-cuse, it wasn't meant like that... I was just happy to see that my "pipe-dreams" are other peoples' too...
adhd= attention defiset hyperactive disorder.. it's load of fun when you learn to contol it!
You know what I'm thinking about right now? That's right, Tacos!
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Posted:
I only spin with white gas, and I think what I said above still stands - on a spinning staff, the ends would need to be warm for any sort of spark or light to catch, and then you'd have to be going reasonably fast for the whole wick to ignite before a little flame went out.
Warmth is going to be critical, in my opinion. Really like the idea of using a BBQ flint to light though, a lot of potential in that!
Written by: FlamingOberon
you should be able to rig a barbecue lighter starter or some other flint system to create just a spark, hypothetically with the trigger near the center of the staff, and the resuting spark on the ends... because one good spark is all you will need to ignite the ends.
I only spin with white gas, and I think what I said above still stands - on a spinning staff, the ends would need to be warm for any sort of spark or light to catch, and then you'd have to be going reasonably fast for the whole wick to ignite before a little flame went out.
Warmth is going to be critical, in my opinion. Really like the idea of using a BBQ flint to light though, a lot of potential in that!
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
enthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk
328 posts
Location: uk
Posted:
I have a self lighting staff system going through final testing and then onto prototype, using replaceble wire wool cartridges,
mark
I have a self lighting staff system going through final testing and then onto prototype, using replaceble wire wool cartridges,
mark
SILVER Member
newbie
17 posts
Location: Münchendorf, AUSTRIA
newbie
17 posts
Location: Münchendorf, AUSTRIA
Posted:
sounds really cool but may you make a vid to show us how it works.
twirling greets
hilli
sounds really cool but may you make a vid to show us how it works.
twirling greets
hilli
Think but never worry for tomorrow will come anyway
newbie
10 posts
10 posts
Posted:
Try using a full fire staff- this is just one where the kevlar wicks stretch nearly all the way from the ends to the handle, right? Then, you can put a lighter in your hand as you spin (some dexterity is needed her), and if you've coated the whole wicks in fuel, you can then light up really quickly from the handle without your audience noticing! Even better, the flames shoot out from thehandles towards the tips, so it looks like a lightsaber going up.
I claim no resposibility for people burning their hands using full fire staffs... It HURTS!
Try using a full fire staff- this is just one where the kevlar wicks stretch nearly all the way from the ends to the handle, right? Then, you can put a lighter in your hand as you spin (some dexterity is needed her), and if you've coated the whole wicks in fuel, you can then light up really quickly from the handle without your audience noticing! Even better, the flames shoot out from thehandles towards the tips, so it looks like a lightsaber going up.
I claim no resposibility for people burning their hands using full fire staffs... It HURTS!
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom
Posted:
That sounds nice, Ignar! I'd love to see a video of it lighting up like that!
That sounds nice, Ignar! I'd love to see a video of it lighting up like that!
What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau
Internet Hate Machine
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
10,530 posts
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there...
Posted:
\\\"along with the kero-compartment in the stafff for instant refuelling.... \\\"
That\\\'s becoming less of a dream.
As for self lighting.... I\\\'ve seen small fire batons that have seemingly burst into flame. Can\\\'t remember where, when how or why though.
But the battery and wire wool idea certainly sounds feasable.
\\\"along with the kero-compartment in the stafff for instant refuelling.... \\\"
That\\\'s becoming less of a dream.
Written by: Oddballs.co.uk
NEW Kapok Reservoir 4\\\' Fire Staff
These new staffs were developed in association with Oddballs to create a long burning fire staff. Kevlar will not soak up a lot of liquid meaning low burn times. Kapok absorbs 10 times as much as kevlar - you can see where we\\\'re going here! These fire staffs are based on an aluminium tube with a silicon hand grip and 330mm of 100mm kevlar wicking.
As for self lighting.... I\\\'ve seen small fire batons that have seemingly burst into flame. Can\\\'t remember where, when how or why though.
But the battery and wire wool idea certainly sounds feasable.
The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."
enthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk
328 posts
Location: uk
Posted:
I've been making reservoir / chambered staffs for nearly 3 years now,
mark
I've been making reservoir / chambered staffs for nearly 3 years now,
mark
SILVER Member
water based
5,125 posts
Location: melbourne, Australia
water based
5,125 posts
Location: melbourne, Australia
Posted:
hmm, i was working with a design a while ago, of using nichrome wire to ignite it. you'd need a piece of it wrapped around the wick, and with enough current (12V i think, i forget how many amps) it bursts into flames and is gone.
with the right fuel mix, this could light it easily.
cheers, pete
hmm, i was working with a design a while ago, of using nichrome wire to ignite it. you'd need a piece of it wrapped around the wick, and with enough current (12V i think, i forget how many amps) it bursts into flames and is gone.
with the right fuel mix, this could light it easily.
cheers, pete
"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"
*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*
newbie
10 posts
10 posts
Posted:
This might sound kinda stupid, but has anyone thought about this. Fire is nearly invisible in bright light, so if you spin indoors in real bright lit, and then suddenly get someone to switch all the lights out, provided the audience is far away enough you can still get a good OOOOH! from them.
Kevlarsoul- sorry, i don't actually have a full fire staff to take a video of, my last one gut buggered after too much use. but i'm trying to make a new one, just be adventurous!
This might sound kinda stupid, but has anyone thought about this. Fire is nearly invisible in bright light, so if you spin indoors in real bright lit, and then suddenly get someone to switch all the lights out, provided the audience is far away enough you can still get a good OOOOH! from them.
Kevlarsoul- sorry, i don't actually have a full fire staff to take a video of, my last one gut buggered after too much use. but i'm trying to make a new one, just be adventurous!
SILVER Member
water based
5,125 posts
Location: melbourne, Australia
water based
5,125 posts
Location: melbourne, Australia
Posted:
also, available on ebay, there is a magicians utility. its two liquids, that when mixed together, create fire. not too sure how controlledit is though.
cheers, pete
also, available on ebay, there is a magicians utility. its two liquids, that when mixed together, create fire. not too sure how controlledit is though.
cheers, pete
"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"
*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*
Member
3 posts
3 posts
Posted:
Hi all, new guy starting off with a rant:
Indeed, this is one possible setup. Possibly the easiest thing I have ever seen for remote lighting of pyro effects was what was previously mentioned about wire wool(steel wool?) and a battery. Running a 1.5 - 3V battery's current through steel wool will make it glow red hot(enought to light kero) or even burst into flames(with a 9V battery). We used to use this to make stage props where we needed a 'gunfire' effect(trigger was a switch, battery in the butt, wires down the barrel to a small clump of wire wool and flashpowder).
It would be almost no trouble to run the electrics inside, and down through a hollow staff to two alligator clips, with a 9v battery somehow sealed with a switch in the handle area. Then you could just take a few strands of wire wool, run them around the end of the staff right below the wick, and when you press the button - kawoosh!
The only reason I could advise against piezoelectric ignitors(electronic lighters, gas grill starter sparkers, etc) is that because they do deal in concussion-electrics(very sensitive, can even be triggered by dropping them) and because it is electric at all, it may not function as expected or at all after dipping the ignitor. Also, the spark created is fairly weak and may not light a lower flashpoint liquid like Kero without perfect positioning.
Side Note: As I got bored and just tried it, if you link 4 9V batteries in series(36V 9mA) before attaching it to the wool, it damn near explodes....
Hi all, new guy starting off with a rant:
Written by: pineapple pete
using nichrome wire to ignite it. you'd need a piece of it wrapped around the wick, and with enough current (12V i think, i forget how many amps) it bursts into flames and is gone.
Indeed, this is one possible setup. Possibly the easiest thing I have ever seen for remote lighting of pyro effects was what was previously mentioned about wire wool(steel wool?) and a battery. Running a 1.5 - 3V battery's current through steel wool will make it glow red hot(enought to light kero) or even burst into flames(with a 9V battery). We used to use this to make stage props where we needed a 'gunfire' effect(trigger was a switch, battery in the butt, wires down the barrel to a small clump of wire wool and flashpowder).
It would be almost no trouble to run the electrics inside, and down through a hollow staff to two alligator clips, with a 9v battery somehow sealed with a switch in the handle area. Then you could just take a few strands of wire wool, run them around the end of the staff right below the wick, and when you press the button - kawoosh!
The only reason I could advise against piezoelectric ignitors(electronic lighters, gas grill starter sparkers, etc) is that because they do deal in concussion-electrics(very sensitive, can even be triggered by dropping them) and because it is electric at all, it may not function as expected or at all after dipping the ignitor. Also, the spark created is fairly weak and may not light a lower flashpoint liquid like Kero without perfect positioning.
Side Note: As I got bored and just tried it, if you link 4 9V batteries in series(36V 9mA) before attaching it to the wool, it damn near explodes....
SILVER Member
member
43 posts
Location: Helensburgh, Australia
member
43 posts
Location: Helensburgh, Australia
Posted:
hey there
ive actually made a new type of fire staff which kind looks like an full length staff the good thing about it is that when u want to light it u press the bouton in the middle and both ends light up then engnite it runs of a 9v battery i have also added 20 LEDs which run up the staff which also operated with a flick of a switch i works quite well the only think is the wicks r a bit dodgie cause they are made out of towel uif u wanna see pictures on my electronic staff msg me and ill try and get some
hey there
ive actually made a new type of fire staff which kind looks like an full length staff the good thing about it is that when u want to light it u press the bouton in the middle and both ends light up then engnite it runs of a 9v battery i have also added 20 LEDs which run up the staff which also operated with a flick of a switch i works quite well the only think is the wicks r a bit dodgie cause they are made out of towel uif u wanna see pictures on my electronic staff msg me and ill try and get some
Horsepower is how fast u hit a tree. Tourqe is how far the tree goes with u
member
117 posts
117 posts
Posted:
I don't know if it's been suggested (sorry didn't have time to read the whole thread) but you could try some form of pizo-electric lighter operated by a foot switch. then you could build it into some sort of housing so it wasn't obvious. Alot of work, but it might do what you want
I don't know if it's been suggested (sorry didn't have time to read the whole thread) but you could try some form of pizo-electric lighter operated by a foot switch. then you could build it into some sort of housing so it wasn't obvious. Alot of work, but it might do what you want
newbie
3 posts
3 posts
Posted:
Ignar's got it right with the full fire staff, except we call then firewalls. it works really well, just keep the lighter hidden and make sure you get rid of it somehow once the staff is lit.
i'm korma si, met'a seren geti, mor kay forr, aro sitrrio maar.
Ignar's got it right with the full fire staff, except we call then firewalls. it works really well, just keep the lighter hidden and make sure you get rid of it somehow once the staff is lit.
i'm korma si, met'a seren geti, mor kay forr, aro sitrrio maar.
member
37 posts
Location: north yorkshire
37 posts
Location: north yorkshire
Posted:
just a thougt, feel free to rip to shreds..! flash cotton/string wound around the staff and set off by pezo electrics? or do flash products burn too fast light?
just a thougt, feel free to rip to shreds..! flash cotton/string wound around the staff and set off by pezo electrics? or do flash products burn too fast light?
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
uTube - uTube -uTube -uTube -uTube -uTube -uTube -uTube
flickR - flickR - flickR - flickR - flickR - flickR
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1170658458)
Written by: marco
I have a self lighting staff system going through final testing and then onto prototype, using replaceble wire wool cartridges,
mark
uTube - uTube -uTube -uTube -uTube -uTube -uTube -uTube
Written by: razza
hey there
ive actually made a new type of fire staff which kind looks like an full length staff the good thing about it is that when u want to light it u press the bouton in the middle and both ends light up then engnite it runs of a 9v battery i have also added 20 LEDs which run up the staff which also operated with a flick of a switch i works quite well the only think is the wicks r a bit dodgie cause they are made out of towel uif u wanna see pictures on my electronic staff msg me and ill try and get some
flickR - flickR - flickR - flickR - flickR - flickR
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1170658458)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
surely with a hollow staff with wicks you could have something akin to the oven lighters on the inside of the tube with the electric lighting section at the wicks, then it's just click and light, may be trickyrefueling ovenlighter and wher eyou put the "on" button, but for someone technically minded I'm sure they could find a way
surely with a hollow staff with wicks you could have something akin to the oven lighters on the inside of the tube with the electric lighting section at the wicks, then it's just click and light, may be trickyrefueling ovenlighter and wher eyou put the "on" button, but for someone technically minded I'm sure they could find a way
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
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