Forums > Social Chat > World Summit!?
Login/Join to Participateveteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
So...
Did anyone pay attention?
Did anyone see them laugh at Blair and Powell???
Waddaya think of this earth?
Did the summit do anything or did it just serve to fuck over poor, developing countries in a unified shout of capitolistic fever?
Tell me what do YOU think!
Much love, Drome
So...
Did anyone pay attention?
Did anyone see them laugh at Blair and Powell???
Waddaya think of this earth?
Did the summit do anything or did it just serve to fuck over poor, developing countries in a unified shout of capitolistic fever?
Tell me what do YOU think!
Much love, Drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,737 posts
Location: London
2,737 posts
Location: London
Posted:
I think jam and marmalde on toast would be a good idea
I think jam and marmalde on toast would be a good idea
Small Lardy Person In Disguise
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
Ohh make me some please smallboy...and a nice cup of coffee
Ohh make me some please smallboy...and a nice cup of coffee
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
addict
642 posts
Location: UK, London
642 posts
Location: UK, London
Posted:
How profound of you smallboy!!! I agree profusely with the state of jam and marmalade as it is they should not hold discussions about poor developing countries.
Well what do you expect holding the summit so close to a slum town and have all the people going in top notch hotels spending £1000's of pounds a day as they show the poor people just how much they reallly care!!!
But what are they going to fix anyway whenever they get together they talk about stuff but don't actually get down to implementing it. They might as well have met up in a pub and moan about the state of the world and about how someone should fix it, the same way I do!!
All this talk about power and america being a world leader, the only way they show this power is to declare war on everyone and their nan! However the politicians still have not learnt that true power does not come from which weapons you are holding but what influence you use to try and improve everyone's life.
They should realise that when they die they should be remembered as the people who made a difference to peoples lives and not be the 'cause of their destruction. The people you always miss the most are the ones who made a positive influence on your life.
They should really sit together in a room with their bank accounts open, then distribute their capital wealth to the places that need it most. This should happen instantly so that by the end of the meeting they have actually done something good, instead of coming out saying how interesting it all was then get back to their day!
Even better they should have a large rally round of all the jam and marmalade stores they have and distribute it to all the poor countries with complimentary toast a handshake and a promise of more jam and marmalade next year!!!!
How profound of you smallboy!!! I agree profusely with the state of jam and marmalade as it is they should not hold discussions about poor developing countries.
Well what do you expect holding the summit so close to a slum town and have all the people going in top notch hotels spending £1000's of pounds a day as they show the poor people just how much they reallly care!!!
But what are they going to fix anyway whenever they get together they talk about stuff but don't actually get down to implementing it. They might as well have met up in a pub and moan about the state of the world and about how someone should fix it, the same way I do!!
All this talk about power and america being a world leader, the only way they show this power is to declare war on everyone and their nan! However the politicians still have not learnt that true power does not come from which weapons you are holding but what influence you use to try and improve everyone's life.
They should realise that when they die they should be remembered as the people who made a difference to peoples lives and not be the 'cause of their destruction. The people you always miss the most are the ones who made a positive influence on your life.
They should really sit together in a room with their bank accounts open, then distribute their capital wealth to the places that need it most. This should happen instantly so that by the end of the meeting they have actually done something good, instead of coming out saying how interesting it all was then get back to their day!
Even better they should have a large rally round of all the jam and marmalade stores they have and distribute it to all the poor countries with complimentary toast a handshake and a promise of more jam and marmalade next year!!!!
'Happiness is liking peeing on yourself. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.'
'If *I* had a hammer, there'd be no more folk singers.'
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Posted:
US & UK governments make me want to barf.
Why is it these 'democratic' companies do not give a blind fu@k what the people want.
My heart is with the poor innocent victims and the of 9/11 and the families left behind.
Lets take time to remember all the innocent victims killed in Afghanistan also. Many children and men and women were slaughtered by power hungry Bush seeking revenge.
I'm sure most Americans are appalled by Bush clamouring for war. Have the people of the US not suffered enough this past year without engaging them in a war because Iraq has 'weapons of mass destruction', what does US gov have, firecrackers? Why fight bloodshed with bloodshed? The US government used Afghanistan and threw them aside. Then when they retaliated, innocents were hurt. Now Iraq is in for it because they have an insane power hungry leader. And once again, innocents will suffer
But Bush does not give a sh't who gets hurt, and besides they have their missile defence system! I'm sure Mr. Bush will be safe in his hidey hole if the worst happens while the american citizen is getting the s@it end of the stick.
America reminds me of the old British Empire, which is probably why Tony Blair is wriggling so far up Bush's ass. I'm living in the UK, work in the city and am pretty much certain that I won't survive a war. But I am also worried for my family in Ireland nearby, is it not bad enough that Sellafield leaks its garbage into the Irish sea so that sheep are born with 5 legs, babies with defects and cancer rates soaring without having a mushroom cloud hanging over Irish skies!
O.K, so socialism in theory does not work, but imagine if the power madness abated, third world debt was cancelled and the US military budget alone was redirected to
But when you see the mourning relatives of 9/11 dealing with their grief by hotfooting it to their lawyers to sue airlines, governments caring more about the lining of their pockets than the lining of the ozone layer and rejecting renewable energy sources, governments promoting war not peace and nobody giving a toss about the anonymous millions dying of disease and hunger, I find it impossible to hope I will see an end to war and poverty in my lifetime
My first niece was born last week and it makes me shudder to think of an inncocent child being exposed to the human capacity for evil.
So are Humans a disease? Are we all born with an inherent greediness and 'evil' inside us? Can we evolve?
Lets hope so.
US & UK governments make me want to barf.
Why is it these 'democratic' companies do not give a blind fu@k what the people want.
My heart is with the poor innocent victims and the of 9/11 and the families left behind.
Lets take time to remember all the innocent victims killed in Afghanistan also. Many children and men and women were slaughtered by power hungry Bush seeking revenge.
I'm sure most Americans are appalled by Bush clamouring for war. Have the people of the US not suffered enough this past year without engaging them in a war because Iraq has 'weapons of mass destruction', what does US gov have, firecrackers? Why fight bloodshed with bloodshed? The US government used Afghanistan and threw them aside. Then when they retaliated, innocents were hurt. Now Iraq is in for it because they have an insane power hungry leader. And once again, innocents will suffer
But Bush does not give a sh't who gets hurt, and besides they have their missile defence system! I'm sure Mr. Bush will be safe in his hidey hole if the worst happens while the american citizen is getting the s@it end of the stick.
America reminds me of the old British Empire, which is probably why Tony Blair is wriggling so far up Bush's ass. I'm living in the UK, work in the city and am pretty much certain that I won't survive a war. But I am also worried for my family in Ireland nearby, is it not bad enough that Sellafield leaks its garbage into the Irish sea so that sheep are born with 5 legs, babies with defects and cancer rates soaring without having a mushroom cloud hanging over Irish skies!
O.K, so socialism in theory does not work, but imagine if the power madness abated, third world debt was cancelled and the US military budget alone was redirected to
But when you see the mourning relatives of 9/11 dealing with their grief by hotfooting it to their lawyers to sue airlines, governments caring more about the lining of their pockets than the lining of the ozone layer and rejecting renewable energy sources, governments promoting war not peace and nobody giving a toss about the anonymous millions dying of disease and hunger, I find it impossible to hope I will see an end to war and poverty in my lifetime
My first niece was born last week and it makes me shudder to think of an inncocent child being exposed to the human capacity for evil.
So are Humans a disease? Are we all born with an inherent greediness and 'evil' inside us? Can we evolve?
Lets hope so.
Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.
- W B Yeats
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,737 posts
Location: London
2,737 posts
Location: London
Posted:
and so on........lol
and so on........lol
Small Lardy Person In Disguise
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Posted:
Smallboy,
From one sticky mess to another!
But if the jam is rasberry, then the World would indeed be a better place!
Smallboy,
From one sticky mess to another!
But if the jam is rasberry, then the World would indeed be a better place!
Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.
- W B Yeats
member
557 posts
Location: The Underworld
557 posts
Location: The Underworld
Posted:
I'm with Smalls on this. Pass the sugar luv
OOOOOH! NEW SMILIES!!!
I'm with Smalls on this. Pass the sugar luv
OOOOOH! NEW SMILIES!!!
Az abouve, So below...
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
I think that the American government are war mongers. They are far too trigger happy. They think that the solution to everything is to bomb it.
And i also think that the English government isn't too far behind the Americans. It seems to me that Tony Blair will do anything for Bush.
But thats just my views
I think that the American government are war mongers. They are far too trigger happy. They think that the solution to everything is to bomb it.
And i also think that the English government isn't too far behind the Americans. It seems to me that Tony Blair will do anything for Bush.
But thats just my views
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
member
321 posts
Location: arizona
321 posts
Location: arizona
Posted:
well regardless of what anyone thinks of the us govt. we are not trying to start war with iraq for just us govt. reasons. there breaking UN treaty. thats a slap to the whole world. as a condition of our withdrawl during desert storm iraq was required to let un inspectors into there facilities to make sure they werent harbouring any dangerous weapons. yes the US has dangerous weapons so does britain russia china you name it.. the difference is we arnt gassing are own people and attackng neighboring countries. he is breaking the rules of the world not just american govt. sadam is more or less americas responsability. im all about removing him from power or atleast putting him back in check before somthing really nasty gets dropped on us. or england or isreal or who ever else iraq sees as a threat. hes a ticking time bomb we dont need to wait for him to go off.
well regardless of what anyone thinks of the us govt. we are not trying to start war with iraq for just us govt. reasons. there breaking UN treaty. thats a slap to the whole world. as a condition of our withdrawl during desert storm iraq was required to let un inspectors into there facilities to make sure they werent harbouring any dangerous weapons. yes the US has dangerous weapons so does britain russia china you name it.. the difference is we arnt gassing are own people and attackng neighboring countries. he is breaking the rules of the world not just american govt. sadam is more or less americas responsability. im all about removing him from power or atleast putting him back in check before somthing really nasty gets dropped on us. or england or isreal or who ever else iraq sees as a threat. hes a ticking time bomb we dont need to wait for him to go off.
drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Posted:
Thing is, it was not really US business to get involved in 1st place - it was an oil = money = power thing.
Rich most governments always seem to use and abuse.
Iraq are not suddenly a threat to the World.
But if majority of World things that we should keep our noses out (including poor innocents of Iraq who don't see US as being saviours, more a case of more facists coming in to f'ck up their lives)
Why does the US gov. arm the Afghans and then kill them, arm the Tawainese and then refuse to support them against the Chinese (who could be a future threat)
I am more scared of US threats than Sadaam to be perfectly honest (if you're not with us you are against us).
Thing is, it was not really US business to get involved in 1st place - it was an oil = money = power thing.
Rich most governments always seem to use and abuse.
Iraq are not suddenly a threat to the World.
But if majority of World things that we should keep our noses out (including poor innocents of Iraq who don't see US as being saviours, more a case of more facists coming in to f'ck up their lives)
Why does the US gov. arm the Afghans and then kill them, arm the Tawainese and then refuse to support them against the Chinese (who could be a future threat)
I am more scared of US threats than Sadaam to be perfectly honest (if you're not with us you are against us).
Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.
- W B Yeats
member
321 posts
Location: arizona
321 posts
Location: arizona
Posted:
quote:oh is that right ?!?! so i guess your envolved with the US govt. right. thats how you know exactly why our military was there. btw england was right there with us, so dont point your finger at america we are allies and we work together with each others consent. we put sadam in power there to stabalize the reigon. when he got power hungry and started gassing his own people and basically just being a thug. i think it was a noble thing for both england and american troops to go there and help restore order. sure we gained economically from the war we do in every war. that doesnt mean there are no humanatarian reasons to be there. this is probablly falling on def ears but im glad you think sadam is such a great guy and your fellow country men and women who fought and died for the freedom of our allies where tyrants. thats really big of you.
Thing is, it was not really US business to get involved in 1st place - it was an oil = money = power thing
drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,737 posts
Location: London
2,737 posts
Location: London
Posted:
So who was it for toast?
(**Passes sugar**)
So who was it for toast?
(**Passes sugar**)
Small Lardy Person In Disguise
member
321 posts
Location: arizona
321 posts
Location: arizona
Posted:
regarding the afgahns, ya we armed and trained them so that they could defend there freedom against invading russia. in return for our kindness they turned around and attacked our allies. there to proud to live on the same contenent as someone who doesnt agree with there beleifs. so i say f*** um..
regarding the afgahns, ya we armed and trained them so that they could defend there freedom against invading russia. in return for our kindness they turned around and attacked our allies. there to proud to live on the same contenent as someone who doesnt agree with there beleifs. so i say f*** um..
drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Posted:
I am Irish. But even if I was English or American I would still criticize the goverments who at the end of the day care about staying in power. Why do you think governments are 'in power'.
I have seen where fighting for freedom from tyrants gets you.
Pain and suffering of the innocent.
And extremists who take matter into their own hands are no better, I do not condone the taking of human life in any shape or form.
I was taught as a child to hate the English. I resent that as a child I was taught to hate.
I think Sadaam is a tyrant. I think the people that will get hurt will be the innocent as before.
I don't agree with war. I hope for Peace.
And I think fighting tyranny with tyranny and power struggles with power struggles is insanity.
How is it noble for a power hungry country to interfere where they have no business, interfering (Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Cambodia) and then call them noble when they send in troops to wipe out the soldiers they have armed. Are Americans to blame? No. Are the British to blame? No. Are the poor people of Iraq to blame because they don't want another war where the innocent suffer most. I don't think so.
Oh yes, I think it is very noble of Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair to sacrifice the troops so close to their hearts.
But what has to be considered is this - Do Sadaam's trad. enemies beside US and bumchum Tony consider that we should go to war, why are all the World Leaders wrong and that oh so intelligent man Mr. Bush holding the key to our salvation? What do you think attacking Afghanistan has achieved? Do you think that attacking Iraq will achieve any more. Seriously, think about it? I wish some of the people in power would.
I am Irish. But even if I was English or American I would still criticize the goverments who at the end of the day care about staying in power. Why do you think governments are 'in power'.
I have seen where fighting for freedom from tyrants gets you.
Pain and suffering of the innocent.
And extremists who take matter into their own hands are no better, I do not condone the taking of human life in any shape or form.
I was taught as a child to hate the English. I resent that as a child I was taught to hate.
I think Sadaam is a tyrant. I think the people that will get hurt will be the innocent as before.
I don't agree with war. I hope for Peace.
And I think fighting tyranny with tyranny and power struggles with power struggles is insanity.
How is it noble for a power hungry country to interfere where they have no business, interfering (Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Cambodia) and then call them noble when they send in troops to wipe out the soldiers they have armed. Are Americans to blame? No. Are the British to blame? No. Are the poor people of Iraq to blame because they don't want another war where the innocent suffer most. I don't think so.
Oh yes, I think it is very noble of Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair to sacrifice the troops so close to their hearts.
But what has to be considered is this - Do Sadaam's trad. enemies beside US and bumchum Tony consider that we should go to war, why are all the World Leaders wrong and that oh so intelligent man Mr. Bush holding the key to our salvation? What do you think attacking Afghanistan has achieved? Do you think that attacking Iraq will achieve any more. Seriously, think about it? I wish some of the people in power would.
Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.
- W B Yeats
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Posted:
No person should be judged by their race, colour, or religon, the actions of their forefathers, their government or the shitty music their country produces.
Respect all around you and don't hang onto bitterness for it rots you inside.
Until you make peace with your enemies, you will never find peace within.
I hope that you find peace Lightbug, and that your anger fades. Forgive, not forget.
This is my last post on this topic as I am sure it is an upsetting topic to everyone. (Sorry Smallboy - pass the toast with Rasberry Jam please!!)
PLUR
Kathryn
No person should be judged by their race, colour, or religon, the actions of their forefathers, their government or the shitty music their country produces.
Respect all around you and don't hang onto bitterness for it rots you inside.
Until you make peace with your enemies, you will never find peace within.
I hope that you find peace Lightbug, and that your anger fades. Forgive, not forget.
This is my last post on this topic as I am sure it is an upsetting topic to everyone. (Sorry Smallboy - pass the toast with Rasberry Jam please!!)
PLUR
Kathryn
Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.
- W B Yeats
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
No, really can't be bothered to start this one again. Oh, go on then!
The US government has an agenda, and it's a selfish one. Human rights and the world environment are not part of that agenda. The US government proved in the world summit that it, more than any other country in the world, cares more about their individual short term power and money than the future of the planet and the well being of the human race as a whole. It seems that a moralistic Christian government who cares so much about protecting people against powerless tyrants, cares little for the millions more affected by more easily preventable problems.
The US sided with countries such as Cuba over the removal of human rights clauses. I find that pretty ironic.
The US 'war on terror' farce and Saddam is for another thread. It's sitting about here somewhere.
No, really can't be bothered to start this one again. Oh, go on then!
The US government has an agenda, and it's a selfish one. Human rights and the world environment are not part of that agenda. The US government proved in the world summit that it, more than any other country in the world, cares more about their individual short term power and money than the future of the planet and the well being of the human race as a whole. It seems that a moralistic Christian government who cares so much about protecting people against powerless tyrants, cares little for the millions more affected by more easily preventable problems.
The US sided with countries such as Cuba over the removal of human rights clauses. I find that pretty ironic.
The US 'war on terror' farce and Saddam is for another thread. It's sitting about here somewhere.
member
14 posts
Location: U.K
14 posts
Location: U.K
Posted:
i'm so disgusted at the world at the moment and i'm sure i'm not the only one.
these so called western leaders of the world seem to do nothing but sustain conflict in the world and this is growing more and more as we can see at our current global state. Instead we should all be working together in peace forming relations and bonds decreasing, world poverty and working towards paying off 3rd world depbt. it's all to do with helping others rather than the capitalist greed that is constantly growing without any worry and is seemingly becomming forcefully realistic.
the world summit didn't acheive anything, this is a disgrace and a perfect example of neglect to our planet.
i hope we change and our voices are heard
take care sadrra
-------------------------------------------------
an eye for an eye will blind the earth - Ghandi
i'm so disgusted at the world at the moment and i'm sure i'm not the only one.
these so called western leaders of the world seem to do nothing but sustain conflict in the world and this is growing more and more as we can see at our current global state. Instead we should all be working together in peace forming relations and bonds decreasing, world poverty and working towards paying off 3rd world depbt. it's all to do with helping others rather than the capitalist greed that is constantly growing without any worry and is seemingly becomming forcefully realistic.
the world summit didn't acheive anything, this is a disgrace and a perfect example of neglect to our planet.
i hope we change and our voices are heard
take care sadrra
-------------------------------------------------
an eye for an eye will blind the earth - Ghandi
member
321 posts
Location: arizona
321 posts
Location: arizona
Posted:
you guys keep saying "mr. bush" like he calls all the shots.. we have operated pretty much the same way forever with all are different presidents. i think bush is pretty retarded from a personal stand point. hes not making the decisions on his own (thank god) most of the free world has a hand in what our military does. we arnt just rampageing around stomping on people so stop acting like that. this isnt a monarchy.
"when all soldiers lay there weapons down ,, and all kings and queens relinquished there crowns, when the only true masiah saves us from ourselves, there will be sorrow no more."
^^^^
i love that song!!
you guys keep saying "mr. bush" like he calls all the shots.. we have operated pretty much the same way forever with all are different presidents. i think bush is pretty retarded from a personal stand point. hes not making the decisions on his own (thank god) most of the free world has a hand in what our military does. we arnt just rampageing around stomping on people so stop acting like that. this isnt a monarchy.
quote:no business interfering?? should we all have said that in ww 2. you think if we leave these problems alone they will magically go away. i dont like war beleive me. unfortunatley simply pulling out and letting the chips fall where they may will not work i promise. thats what our enemies want. that way they can freely kill and steal and take control of all the weaker people around them,and when they have used up all there resources and trampled everyone in there imediate path they will move on to the rest of the world. thats the difference between us and them. we have musilims bhudists blacks whites all religions living right here in our country. everyone who wants to contribute to society and not hurt anyone else can live here in peace. our enemies ,and when i say "our" i meen the free world, will not rest until all who differ from them are destroyed.
How is it noble for a power hungry country to interfere where they have no business, interfering (Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Cambodia) and then call them noble when they send in troops to wipe out the soldiers they have armed. Are Americans to blame? No. Are the British to blame? No. Are the poor people of Iraq to blame because they don't want another war where the innocent suffer most. I don't think so.
"when all soldiers lay there weapons down ,, and all kings and queens relinquished there crowns, when the only true masiah saves us from ourselves, there will be sorrow no more."
^^^^
i love that song!!
drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!
member
321 posts
Location: arizona
321 posts
Location: arizona
Posted:
i cant beleive the things that come out of your mouth sometimes dom.
tell me streight up you honestly beleive everything will be ok if we all just turn our backs on all this and let sadam and all the other physcos run free.
and uh "powerless tyrants"?!? hello!! how many people need to die before you consider these "powerless tyrants" a threat. there the worst kind of threat. imagine a violent street thug with no respect for human life commanding a massive army and weapons that can wipe out 10s of thousands of people in the blink of an eye. thats whats running around in the world right now and i want them gone not for economy not for power but so my mom my girlfriend all the people i love arnt blasted off the face of the earth over some bull shit that none of us have anything to do with .. some old fight that will never be won. im disguested that people dont think i have the right to feel that way. you think im being dramatic, your wrong. its real its happening i dont give a fuck how greedy you think my goverment is or if what is happening over ther is "PC" .if somthing isnt done i fear the whole world will be doomed. so if you care so much about the planet then you should be backing your soldiers cause there the only thing thats gonna save us from this the most dangerous threat ever to the earth.
i cant beleive the things that come out of your mouth sometimes dom.
tell me streight up you honestly beleive everything will be ok if we all just turn our backs on all this and let sadam and all the other physcos run free.
and uh "powerless tyrants"?!? hello!! how many people need to die before you consider these "powerless tyrants" a threat. there the worst kind of threat. imagine a violent street thug with no respect for human life commanding a massive army and weapons that can wipe out 10s of thousands of people in the blink of an eye. thats whats running around in the world right now and i want them gone not for economy not for power but so my mom my girlfriend all the people i love arnt blasted off the face of the earth over some bull shit that none of us have anything to do with .. some old fight that will never be won. im disguested that people dont think i have the right to feel that way. you think im being dramatic, your wrong. its real its happening i dont give a fuck how greedy you think my goverment is or if what is happening over ther is "PC" .if somthing isnt done i fear the whole world will be doomed. so if you care so much about the planet then you should be backing your soldiers cause there the only thing thats gonna save us from this the most dangerous threat ever to the earth.
drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!
SILVER Member
Intrepid Penguin
5,635 posts
Location: Australia
Intrepid Penguin
5,635 posts
Location: Australia
Posted:
i think next time they should hold the world summit in tents. and they can all bring their own food. And they can get badges for whoever can start a fire without using matches! or who can learn how to canoe!
oh
wait
Thats boy scouts.....
i think next time they should hold the world summit in tents. and they can all bring their own food. And they can get badges for whoever can start a fire without using matches! or who can learn how to canoe!
oh
wait
Thats boy scouts.....
Currently on the right side up of the world.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
"you guys keep saying "mr. bush" like he calls all the shots.." - er, maybe because he's the president! He sets general policy, he appoints the White House staff, who set the detailed policy. So he really does affect most of US politics.
lightbug, you can't have that simple a mind! Do you think it's either go to war, or leave them alone. Do you think the rest of the world is really saying "Let these leaders do whatever they want! We dont't care". No! Guess what, there are other ways to overcome differences and conflicts than violence! Shocking, I know, but war isn't the only answer. Across the globe and through history there are hundreds of examples of harsh regimes falling without war. Ever heard of the concepts of diplomacy, negotiations, respect for territorial boundaries?
Do you honestly think that Iraq threatens you directly? You're more far, far more likely to be murdered by your flag waving next door neighbour. Even paranoid estimates say that they're years off nuclear weapons. And Iraq has NO money and few resources. It's been crippled for a decade. I find it hilarious that victims of 9/11 are suing Iraq for billions in damages. They have no money, the country is well and truly f**ked and we made it that way and we keep it that way, even if it means the deaths of a million innocent people over the last decade.
And you do realise the global consequences of a war with Iraq? Do think the US can march in, over throw Saddam, then wander off and forget about Iraq completely (which precedent shows it will)? Do you not think the rest of the Arab world (and most of the rest of the world) will not get a bit pissed off? Can you not see the greater picture?
Why do you think that no other country in the world is currently supporting a war with Iraq? Is the US leadership more intelligent than everyone else or maybe everyone else thinks about things more.
The minute you talk of war you create an very defensive atmosphere. The monarchy of Saudi Arabia is looking shaky and the religious are taking a stronger grasp on power. Same in Pakistan. Again in Iran, where reforms worked on for years are being reversed. In Afghanistan many in the new government want the few US troops still there out as they can't trust them. The list goes on. And who will replace Saddam? Maybe a US puppet for a couple of years, but analysts and strategists across the globe reckon he'd soon be replaced with a hardline religious government similar to Iran's. This'll create a very harsh environment in the Middle East where the US will not be welcome.
I'll put it a way you might care about: Your petrol will cost more. More 'ragheads' will want to kill you.
There are other ways to deal with people like Saddam. Unfortunately for the last decade we've treated him like a caged dog up and poked with sticks repeatedly. It'd take a lot to change Iraq into a responsible member of the international community, but we're currently doing nothing.
"the most dangerous threat ever to the earth" - that threat isn't terrorism, isn't Saddam, the 'axis of evil'. It's pollution and global warming that will kill countless millions of people. Lakes are drying up, weather patterns changing, droughts causing famine across the world. And this is what the US government doesn't really do anything about to protect it's own businesses and home comforts. And this is what this thread is meant to be about.
"thats what our enemies want. that way they can freely kill and steal and take control of all the weaker people around them,and when they have used up all there resources and trampled everyone in there immediate path they will move on to the rest of the world. thats the difference between us and them." - erm, actually that sounds like the US: Threatens smaller nations (which'd be most of them not in alliances like the EU) to support its policies; uses something like 36% of the world's resources, a lot of which comes from other countries; happily invades foreign countries; etc...
I don't know why I bothered writing all this, but I've got little work on at the moment.
[ 06 September 2002, 22:48: Message edited by: Dom ]
"you guys keep saying "mr. bush" like he calls all the shots.." - er, maybe because he's the president! He sets general policy, he appoints the White House staff, who set the detailed policy. So he really does affect most of US politics.
lightbug, you can't have that simple a mind! Do you think it's either go to war, or leave them alone. Do you think the rest of the world is really saying "Let these leaders do whatever they want! We dont't care". No! Guess what, there are other ways to overcome differences and conflicts than violence! Shocking, I know, but war isn't the only answer. Across the globe and through history there are hundreds of examples of harsh regimes falling without war. Ever heard of the concepts of diplomacy, negotiations, respect for territorial boundaries?
Do you honestly think that Iraq threatens you directly? You're more far, far more likely to be murdered by your flag waving next door neighbour. Even paranoid estimates say that they're years off nuclear weapons. And Iraq has NO money and few resources. It's been crippled for a decade. I find it hilarious that victims of 9/11 are suing Iraq for billions in damages. They have no money, the country is well and truly f**ked and we made it that way and we keep it that way, even if it means the deaths of a million innocent people over the last decade.
And you do realise the global consequences of a war with Iraq? Do think the US can march in, over throw Saddam, then wander off and forget about Iraq completely (which precedent shows it will)? Do you not think the rest of the Arab world (and most of the rest of the world) will not get a bit pissed off? Can you not see the greater picture?
Why do you think that no other country in the world is currently supporting a war with Iraq? Is the US leadership more intelligent than everyone else or maybe everyone else thinks about things more.
The minute you talk of war you create an very defensive atmosphere. The monarchy of Saudi Arabia is looking shaky and the religious are taking a stronger grasp on power. Same in Pakistan. Again in Iran, where reforms worked on for years are being reversed. In Afghanistan many in the new government want the few US troops still there out as they can't trust them. The list goes on. And who will replace Saddam? Maybe a US puppet for a couple of years, but analysts and strategists across the globe reckon he'd soon be replaced with a hardline religious government similar to Iran's. This'll create a very harsh environment in the Middle East where the US will not be welcome.
I'll put it a way you might care about: Your petrol will cost more. More 'ragheads' will want to kill you.
There are other ways to deal with people like Saddam. Unfortunately for the last decade we've treated him like a caged dog up and poked with sticks repeatedly. It'd take a lot to change Iraq into a responsible member of the international community, but we're currently doing nothing.
"the most dangerous threat ever to the earth" - that threat isn't terrorism, isn't Saddam, the 'axis of evil'. It's pollution and global warming that will kill countless millions of people. Lakes are drying up, weather patterns changing, droughts causing famine across the world. And this is what the US government doesn't really do anything about to protect it's own businesses and home comforts. And this is what this thread is meant to be about.
"thats what our enemies want. that way they can freely kill and steal and take control of all the weaker people around them,and when they have used up all there resources and trampled everyone in there immediate path they will move on to the rest of the world. thats the difference between us and them." - erm, actually that sounds like the US: Threatens smaller nations (which'd be most of them not in alliances like the EU) to support its policies; uses something like 36% of the world's resources, a lot of which comes from other countries; happily invades foreign countries; etc...
I don't know why I bothered writing all this, but I've got little work on at the moment.
[ 06 September 2002, 22:48: Message edited by: Dom ]
member
786 posts
Location: The Phire Kru
786 posts
Location: The Phire Kru
Posted:
It's unfortunate but blatantly obvious that Blair is Bush's botty-boy, he kisses so much ass its untrue!!!!
Governments are evil full stop...look...
By far the most numerous and most flagrant violations of personal liberty and individual rights are performed by governments ... The major crimes throughout history, the ones executed on the largest scale, have been committed not by individuals or bands of individuals but by governments, as a deliberate policy of those governments ...that is, by the official representatives of governments, acting in their official capacity.
- - John Hospers
Government is an evil; it is only the thoughtlessness and vices of men that make it a necessary evil. When all men are good and wise, government will of itself decay.
- - Percy Bysshe Shelley (1776)
The law was made for one thing alone, for the exploitation of those who don't understand it,
or are prevented by naked misery from obeying it.
--- Bertolt Brecht - The Threepenny Opera
We can have justice whenever those who have not been injured by injustice are as outraged by it as those who have been.
- - Solon (594 B.C.)
To assert in any case that a man must be absolutely cut off from society because he is absolutely evil amounts to saying that society is absolutely good, and no-one in his right mind will believe this today.
--- Albert Camus (1913-1960)
But toast with peanut butter and Strawberry jam would be the best!!!!
K
It's unfortunate but blatantly obvious that Blair is Bush's botty-boy, he kisses so much ass its untrue!!!!
Governments are evil full stop...look...
By far the most numerous and most flagrant violations of personal liberty and individual rights are performed by governments ... The major crimes throughout history, the ones executed on the largest scale, have been committed not by individuals or bands of individuals but by governments, as a deliberate policy of those governments ...that is, by the official representatives of governments, acting in their official capacity.
- - John Hospers
Government is an evil; it is only the thoughtlessness and vices of men that make it a necessary evil. When all men are good and wise, government will of itself decay.
- - Percy Bysshe Shelley (1776)
The law was made for one thing alone, for the exploitation of those who don't understand it,
or are prevented by naked misery from obeying it.
--- Bertolt Brecht - The Threepenny Opera
We can have justice whenever those who have not been injured by injustice are as outraged by it as those who have been.
- - Solon (594 B.C.)
To assert in any case that a man must be absolutely cut off from society because he is absolutely evil amounts to saying that society is absolutely good, and no-one in his right mind will believe this today.
--- Albert Camus (1913-1960)
But toast with peanut butter and Strawberry jam would be the best!!!!
K
whats up with all the limitations?
member
92 posts
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
92 posts
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posted:
As to chemical weapons, funny how the US couldn't give a shit when it was happening. Hell, the CIA/DIA was giving the fucking iraqi military satellite intel and billions of dollars in aid and weapons before during and after the time when he gassed the Iranians and the Kurds. And then sold the Iranians weapons when they got beat up on. Until they took the Fao peninsula and good old Ronny decided to support Iraq again, lest *those* turbanheads (Iran) fuck with *our* turban heads (Saudi and Kuwait). Do a fucking google on "Iran Contra". If you need details.
The last part of your post is a stupid, childish and ultimately meaningless ad hominem attack because you basically have no clue what you are talking about and need to sound cool.
You can bet Europe and Japan aren't picking up the bill for this misadventure, unlike the last time. This a pretty damn clear case of Wag the Dog, and its telling how even the US's lapdogs Kuwait and Saudi Arabia don't want any part of it.
You really need to chill. Saddam is hardly going to bring about the end of the world. He's a haggard caged dog with two legs broken -- only dangerous if you decide to stick your hand in the cage. Eventually someone will put a bullet in his head, and then things get really interesting.
quote:Humanitarian reasons -- returning to power a monarchy that amoung other things, owned slaves, repressed all dissent, and were generally piss backwards. I speak, in case you don't remember 10 years back, of the lovely house of Saad. They were uneducated autocratic assholes, but they were *our* uneducated autocratic assholes. No lad, the US fought Iraq in 91 for stability in its oil supply, plain and simple.
Originally posted by lightbug:
quote:oh is that right ?!?! so i guess your envolved with the US govt. right. thats how you know exactly why our military was there. btw england was right there with us, so dont point your finger at america we are allies and we work together with each others consent. we put sadam in power there to stabalize the reigon. when he got power hungry and started gassing his own people and basically just being a thug. i think it was a noble thing for both england and american troops to go there and help restore order. sure we gained economically from the war we do in every war. that doesnt mean there are no humanatarian reasons to be there. this is probablly falling on def ears but im glad you think sadam is such a great guy and your fellow country men and women who fought and died for the freedom of our allies where tyrants. thats really big of you.
Thing is, it was not really US business to get involved in 1st place - it was an oil = money = power thing
As to chemical weapons, funny how the US couldn't give a shit when it was happening. Hell, the CIA/DIA was giving the fucking iraqi military satellite intel and billions of dollars in aid and weapons before during and after the time when he gassed the Iranians and the Kurds. And then sold the Iranians weapons when they got beat up on. Until they took the Fao peninsula and good old Ronny decided to support Iraq again, lest *those* turbanheads (Iran) fuck with *our* turban heads (Saudi and Kuwait). Do a fucking google on "Iran Contra". If you need details.
The last part of your post is a stupid, childish and ultimately meaningless ad hominem attack because you basically have no clue what you are talking about and need to sound cool.
You can bet Europe and Japan aren't picking up the bill for this misadventure, unlike the last time. This a pretty damn clear case of Wag the Dog, and its telling how even the US's lapdogs Kuwait and Saudi Arabia don't want any part of it.
You really need to chill. Saddam is hardly going to bring about the end of the world. He's a haggard caged dog with two legs broken -- only dangerous if you decide to stick your hand in the cage. Eventually someone will put a bullet in his head, and then things get really interesting.
Is that all life comes down to? To be lying face down with an overenthusiastic guy in pink pin-striped pants sitting on top of you and grunting? -- Random MusingsSex, Drugs and Psytrance.
member
786 posts
Location: The Phire Kru
786 posts
Location: The Phire Kru
Posted:
You're forgetting one very important thing son:
Broken legs heal and cages rust
Maybe something will happen to him but if he's left for too long he will venture out of his borders again especially if he's stockpiling weapons of mass destruction.
The West will never use nuclear force against him, think of the repercussions so a conventional war will have to be waged which is when all his chemical weapons will come out and we will find it hard to retalliate as he'll be hiding behind civilians.
It's a tough situation.
You're forgetting one very important thing son:
Broken legs heal and cages rust
Maybe something will happen to him but if he's left for too long he will venture out of his borders again especially if he's stockpiling weapons of mass destruction.
The West will never use nuclear force against him, think of the repercussions so a conventional war will have to be waged which is when all his chemical weapons will come out and we will find it hard to retalliate as he'll be hiding behind civilians.
It's a tough situation.
whats up with all the limitations?
member
92 posts
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
92 posts
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posted:
First off "weapons of mass destruction" is a very vague term. Lets put one thing on the table -- he almost certainly doesn't have a nuke and is extremely unlikely to come up with one in the forseable future. If he had a nuke, he doesn't have a delivery system. Current estimates are that Iraq managed to hide something like 2 dozen scuds. Scuds are 1950's technology, with no parts available, less then hospitable conditions. Most scuds fired in Desert Storm broke up in flight and were essentially useless. A decade later, without the open import of parts, what are the chances they're usable? The iraqi airforce, or whats left of it only exists as long as its on the ground in reinforced bunkers.
Contrary to common belief, I don't think Saddam is a madman. A vile dispicable bastard who should have his head on a spike, yes, but not totally delusional. He knows damn well that if he fired off a nuke, Iraq, Bagdad and him in short order would be a pile of faintly glowing green dust.
He probably has chemical weapons stockpiled somewhere. Whoopy. Again, scuds are pretty much useless as a means of delivery. The only real delivery systems are artillery shells and short range rockets. Good luck finding something to hit with them. Israel has nukes. Iran will have nukes soon. If he targets Israel with chemical weapons, its open season on his ass. North Korea has chemical weapons, and I'm on the firm opinion that its leadership is certifiably insane, but I don't see a rush to invade.
He probably has biological weapons. (Who he got them from is another topic). He may or may not have delivery systems. He also has half the world staring up his ass and waiting for a wrong move.
-A
(Edit -- its late and my grammar blows.)
[ 07 September 2002, 01:18: Message edited by: AardvarkOnAcid ]
quote:If.
Originally posted by Kurobei:
You're forgetting one very important thing son:
Broken legs heal and cages rust
Maybe something will happen to him but if he's left for too long he will venture out of his borders again especially if he's stockpiling weapons of mass destruction.
First off "weapons of mass destruction" is a very vague term. Lets put one thing on the table -- he almost certainly doesn't have a nuke and is extremely unlikely to come up with one in the forseable future. If he had a nuke, he doesn't have a delivery system. Current estimates are that Iraq managed to hide something like 2 dozen scuds. Scuds are 1950's technology, with no parts available, less then hospitable conditions. Most scuds fired in Desert Storm broke up in flight and were essentially useless. A decade later, without the open import of parts, what are the chances they're usable? The iraqi airforce, or whats left of it only exists as long as its on the ground in reinforced bunkers.
Contrary to common belief, I don't think Saddam is a madman. A vile dispicable bastard who should have his head on a spike, yes, but not totally delusional. He knows damn well that if he fired off a nuke, Iraq, Bagdad and him in short order would be a pile of faintly glowing green dust.
He probably has chemical weapons stockpiled somewhere. Whoopy. Again, scuds are pretty much useless as a means of delivery. The only real delivery systems are artillery shells and short range rockets. Good luck finding something to hit with them. Israel has nukes. Iran will have nukes soon. If he targets Israel with chemical weapons, its open season on his ass. North Korea has chemical weapons, and I'm on the firm opinion that its leadership is certifiably insane, but I don't see a rush to invade.
He probably has biological weapons. (Who he got them from is another topic). He may or may not have delivery systems. He also has half the world staring up his ass and waiting for a wrong move.
-A
(Edit -- its late and my grammar blows.)
[ 07 September 2002, 01:18: Message edited by: AardvarkOnAcid ]
Is that all life comes down to? To be lying face down with an overenthusiastic guy in pink pin-striped pants sitting on top of you and grunting? -- Random MusingsSex, Drugs and Psytrance.
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
I'm not reading through all the debate, but i skimmed enough to see that no one mentioned that saddam is asking for weapons inspection right now and america is ignoring him. just inserting a fact.
toasts sounds lurvely, hold the jam pls i'd like nutella
I'm not reading through all the debate, but i skimmed enough to see that no one mentioned that saddam is asking for weapons inspection right now and america is ignoring him. just inserting a fact.
toasts sounds lurvely, hold the jam pls i'd like nutella
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
1 Post
26 replies, I still have much to read...
Anyways I wanted to bring this quote up as the thought of reading and replying to 26 messages all in one go seems daunting so I'm taking it message by message...
Kat I brought up your quote as it is often asked in my mind and heart and the answer still wanders in hope.
So are we?
Well some do believe that evil is inherent and there is no way not to be evil. I personally dont. I do not have an evil bone in my body and CAN actually say that. I know I personally am not evil however other effects might make me evil or behave in an evil manner.
I was thinking about this today as I read an article in the telegraph. The article was about two young brothers (13 and 14) in the United States. These brothers were tried as adults and found guilty of premeditated murder. They are now serving and will be serving for the rest of their lives. They blugeoned their father to death.
So you think they are evil???
They admitted to it; they did it and yet I think they are victims. Victims to an under educated single man who raised them and apparently abused them to the point they felt like killing him was the last option they had.
Now in the grand sceme of things I dont think all can be separated just by evil and right.
In my opinion there is no such thing. Although my upbringing makes me feel otherwise sometimes I have realised that two wrongs dont equal a right and that right and wrong might not be all that we have been ENGRANED to think it is.
Maybe there is no such thing.
Maybe everything is relative.
Maybe Glass has a point an Taoism is really the way.
Much love,
Drome
quote:Wow!!!
Originally posted by Kat:
So are Humans a disease? Are we all born with an inherent greediness and 'evil' inside us? Can we evolve?
1 Post
26 replies, I still have much to read...
Anyways I wanted to bring this quote up as the thought of reading and replying to 26 messages all in one go seems daunting so I'm taking it message by message...
Kat I brought up your quote as it is often asked in my mind and heart and the answer still wanders in hope.
So are we?
Well some do believe that evil is inherent and there is no way not to be evil. I personally dont. I do not have an evil bone in my body and CAN actually say that. I know I personally am not evil however other effects might make me evil or behave in an evil manner.
I was thinking about this today as I read an article in the telegraph. The article was about two young brothers (13 and 14) in the United States. These brothers were tried as adults and found guilty of premeditated murder. They are now serving and will be serving for the rest of their lives. They blugeoned their father to death.
So you think they are evil???
They admitted to it; they did it and yet I think they are victims. Victims to an under educated single man who raised them and apparently abused them to the point they felt like killing him was the last option they had.
Now in the grand sceme of things I dont think all can be separated just by evil and right.
In my opinion there is no such thing. Although my upbringing makes me feel otherwise sometimes I have realised that two wrongs dont equal a right and that right and wrong might not be all that we have been ENGRANED to think it is.
Maybe there is no such thing.
Maybe everything is relative.
Maybe Glass has a point an Taoism is really the way.
Much love,
Drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
Bush is waging war for his own reasons.
I as a citices of a country or even the world I dont really give a fuck... He hasnt bombed us yet and Bush is not exactly sitting on fire crackers himself as Kat said.
So to be honest I think you are mistaken and misguided. You will never know why this war is being waged and to be honest you and people with similar ideologies are the ones who allow such barbaric and stupid practices as war continue (just bitching here although I am not entirely wrong)
I WANT MY CHILDREN TO LIVE IN PEACE!
Can you give them this peace?
What about those thousands of little starving kids in Iraq with a corrupt leader, sanctions from the west and no hope but hope for war.
Can you give them peace?
Much love, Drome
quote:in three simple words I could sum it all up but I will bite my lip and reserve the rude for later...
Originally posted by lightbug:
well regardless of what anyone thinks of the us govt. we are not trying to start war with iraq for just us govt. reasons. there breaking UN treaty. thats a slap to the whole world.
Bush is waging war for his own reasons.
I as a citices of a country or even the world I dont really give a fuck... He hasnt bombed us yet and Bush is not exactly sitting on fire crackers himself as Kat said.
So to be honest I think you are mistaken and misguided. You will never know why this war is being waged and to be honest you and people with similar ideologies are the ones who allow such barbaric and stupid practices as war continue (just bitching here although I am not entirely wrong)
I WANT MY CHILDREN TO LIVE IN PEACE!
Can you give them this peace?
What about those thousands of little starving kids in Iraq with a corrupt leader, sanctions from the west and no hope but hope for war.
Can you give them peace?
Much love, Drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
lightbug lightbug...
you sure are bugging me today...
I cannot believe some of the things you say and the blind ignorant way in which you put them.
The true and honest thing you should realise is that the reason you are in that field 'for your country' has a bit more to do with money, greed, and hunger for power than you think.
You are a pawn for your government. They use you and all other innocent citicens in their fucking game. I am annoyed because of your pledge and aparent like for the system. Its upseting to think that there are so many so brain-washed.
You say sometimes that you dont care about Bush... Have you realised that you usually advocate HIS cause and constantly shove your patritotic thoughts into our brains...
I apologise for the rude over tone of this post. Its upsetting I am annoyed and just dont understand how people can see the truth and not accept it.
Much love,
Drome
lightbug lightbug...
you sure are bugging me today...
I cannot believe some of the things you say and the blind ignorant way in which you put them.
The true and honest thing you should realise is that the reason you are in that field 'for your country' has a bit more to do with money, greed, and hunger for power than you think.
You are a pawn for your government. They use you and all other innocent citicens in their fucking game. I am annoyed because of your pledge and aparent like for the system. Its upseting to think that there are so many so brain-washed.
You say sometimes that you dont care about Bush... Have you realised that you usually advocate HIS cause and constantly shove your patritotic thoughts into our brains...
I apologise for the rude over tone of this post. Its upsetting I am annoyed and just dont understand how people can see the truth and not accept it.
Much love,
Drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Sorry, Brits, but as much as I hate Bush, Blair reminds me of one of those little furry yippy dogs that barks and barks and is really annoying.
And he just sits on Bush's lap and yips on command.
Makes me want to wretch, really.
Sorry, Brits, but as much as I hate Bush, Blair reminds me of one of those little furry yippy dogs that barks and barks and is really annoying.
And he just sits on Bush's lap and yips on command.
Makes me want to wretch, really.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
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