Forums > Technical Discussion > What is Fire?
Login/Join to ParticipateSILVER Member
addict
475 posts
Location: Van Diemans Land, Australia
addict
475 posts
Location: Van Diemans Land, Australia
Posted:
I was sitting here at work and then i thought to myself.
Exactly what IS fire? i mean its overly obvious that fire is an energy.
But what exactly do you say when you want to describe fire scientifically?
What type of energy is it? does it have mass? what causes its orange glow? these are the questions i thought about
Has anyone else ever thought about this? or perhaps knows the answers?
I was sitting here at work and then i thought to myself.
Exactly what IS fire? i mean its overly obvious that fire is an energy.
But what exactly do you say when you want to describe fire scientifically?
What type of energy is it? does it have mass? what causes its orange glow? these are the questions i thought about
Has anyone else ever thought about this? or perhaps knows the answers?
Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight
BRONZE Member
chemical attraction
1,097 posts
Location: Ilkeston, Derbyshire, England
chemical attraction
1,097 posts
Location: Ilkeston, Derbyshire, England
Posted:
the colour of fire is caused by the burning of oxygen.eg if you burn an aqueous solution of boric acid you get a green flame due to thhe position of boron in the spectrum.other examples are [Co(H2O)6]2+ is pink,CoCO3 is purple.most copperr complexes are blue.alll this is due to the numberr of d electrons,absorbing or reflecting the light to produce colours.
the colour of fire is caused by the burning of oxygen.eg if you burn an aqueous solution of boric acid you get a green flame due to thhe position of boron in the spectrum.other examples are [Co(H2O)6]2+ is pink,CoCO3 is purple.most copperr complexes are blue.alll this is due to the numberr of d electrons,absorbing or reflecting the light to produce colours.
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
light and heat.
no.
the type of fuel you're burning (and the amount of oxygen supplied to keep it going).
we used to confuse ourselves talking about what flames were and why they burnt like they do - like 'what temperature/size does a flame have to be before it starts flickering?' and so on
cole. x
Written by: DoktorSkell
What type of energy is it?
does it have mass?
what causes its orange glow?
light and heat.
no.
the type of fuel you're burning (and the amount of oxygen supplied to keep it going).
we used to confuse ourselves talking about what flames were and why they burnt like they do - like 'what temperature/size does a flame have to be before it starts flickering?' and so on
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Its exothemic combustion.
*buts goes with Coles answers*
Its exothemic combustion.
*buts goes with Coles answers*
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom
Posted:
i wonder how fire would burn in zero g?
it would be like a baknket of floating death!
or a true ball as teh liquid qould form together!
as for fire, its just that fire, the oxidiastion of the fuel source, giving rise to the stored enegry becommin, heat and light, and sound enegry
there is also some given off as kenetic enegry in the movment of teh flames
all in all its a poo enegry source, just as electrisity is
now if you wnat a realy stupid question...what is electrisity, mass? size?
none of the above, its all a flow of electrons, and thus is weightless and life less!
i wonder how fire would burn in zero g?
it would be like a baknket of floating death!
or a true ball as teh liquid qould form together!
as for fire, its just that fire, the oxidiastion of the fuel source, giving rise to the stored enegry becommin, heat and light, and sound enegry
there is also some given off as kenetic enegry in the movment of teh flames
all in all its a poo enegry source, just as electrisity is
now if you wnat a realy stupid question...what is electrisity, mass? size?
none of the above, its all a flow of electrons, and thus is weightless and life less!
Step (el-nombrie)
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
Apparently candles won't burn in zero g - you need the convection caused by hot air rising to bring in new oxygenated air to keep the flame going. So in zero g it uses up the oxygen near it and then goes out.
Apparently candles won't burn in zero g - you need the convection caused by hot air rising to bring in new oxygenated air to keep the flame going. So in zero g it uses up the oxygen near it and then goes out.
monkeys ate my brain
Flaming Lesbian
181 posts
Location: Portland, Oregon
181 posts
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted:
watch the movie red planet for a demonstration of someone with far too much time on their hands accuratly rendering zero-gravity fire. the movie sucked, but the weightless fire bubbles were quite accurate.
watch the movie red planet for a demonstration of someone with far too much time on their hands accuratly rendering zero-gravity fire. the movie sucked, but the weightless fire bubbles were quite accurate.
Lights dancing off my skin as chains wrap round it.
Pain is in a little box and I'm so glad I found it.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom
Posted:
i would love to see fire in zero g
it would be so lush
obviously till i died but lush!
i would love to see fire in zero g
it would be so lush
obviously till i died but lush!
Step (el-nombrie)
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
Mo-seph is correct. fire in zero G would not last long - as there would be little or no convection, meaning all the oxygen in the area of the flame would be quickly used up, and no up draft (heat only rises because of gravity) to bring in fresh air. so explosions are possible, and perhaps quick flas fires, but not sustained flames or really even embers, unless you have an oxygen souce directly feeding the flame (as per an acetylene torch for example)
So really, accurately rendering a flame in zero G is complete BS, just like the rest of the movie "Red Planet" - that movie doesn't even qualify as science fiction - just fiction (maybe "space fiction"?), because there is pretty much no (even vaguely) accurate science in it.
and to be technically correct ,you aren't really burning oxygen - rather burning is the process of rapidly oxidizing a substance in a exothermic reaction. the flame you see is actually elctrons that have been ecited by the heat of the reaction into a higher energy state falling back to their ground level. as they do so, they emit the energy in the form of light (in a flame much of that light is infrared light - also known as heat to the lay person). If you are burning a substance other than carbon (which gives the yellow/orange), the different electron orbital configurations lead to the electrons falling back to ground states with a different amount of energy released than for carbon, and since light color is is energy dependant, that means your flame will be a different color
for example, the energy difference between the first exited state for electrons orbiting a boron atom is greater than for a carbon atom - thus buring boric acid gives a green flame, which has a higher energy content than the yellow flame of carbon. this does not mean the boric acid neccisarly burns seemingly hotter though - just that more energy is contained in the green light. The amout of infrared heat (which is what you will feeel as heat directly) may actually be less, depending on this and other variables.
Mo-seph is correct. fire in zero G would not last long - as there would be little or no convection, meaning all the oxygen in the area of the flame would be quickly used up, and no up draft (heat only rises because of gravity) to bring in fresh air. so explosions are possible, and perhaps quick flas fires, but not sustained flames or really even embers, unless you have an oxygen souce directly feeding the flame (as per an acetylene torch for example)
So really, accurately rendering a flame in zero G is complete BS, just like the rest of the movie "Red Planet" - that movie doesn't even qualify as science fiction - just fiction (maybe "space fiction"?), because there is pretty much no (even vaguely) accurate science in it.
and to be technically correct ,you aren't really burning oxygen - rather burning is the process of rapidly oxidizing a substance in a exothermic reaction. the flame you see is actually elctrons that have been ecited by the heat of the reaction into a higher energy state falling back to their ground level. as they do so, they emit the energy in the form of light (in a flame much of that light is infrared light - also known as heat to the lay person). If you are burning a substance other than carbon (which gives the yellow/orange), the different electron orbital configurations lead to the electrons falling back to ground states with a different amount of energy released than for carbon, and since light color is is energy dependant, that means your flame will be a different color
for example, the energy difference between the first exited state for electrons orbiting a boron atom is greater than for a carbon atom - thus buring boric acid gives a green flame, which has a higher energy content than the yellow flame of carbon. this does not mean the boric acid neccisarly burns seemingly hotter though - just that more energy is contained in the green light. The amout of infrared heat (which is what you will feeel as heat directly) may actually be less, depending on this and other variables.
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
geek.
who wants a peek at my favourites directory...?
https://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/combustion/web/video_collection.htm
cole. x
geek.
who wants a peek at my favourites directory...?
https://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/combustion/web/video_collection.htm
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
cool - thanks Cole!
cool - thanks Cole!
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
Lovely. There goes my afternoon.
Lovely. There goes my afternoon.
monkeys ate my brain
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
"geek"
Seconded.
"geek"
Seconded.
Getting to the other side 
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
Wow.. I found that really interesting Vanize!
Wow.. I found that really interesting Vanize!
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
Geek!
Written by: Pink...?
Wow.. I found that really interesting Vanize!
Geek!
monkeys ate my brain
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
er... you know, at last count, there were well over 16,000 geeks registered on HoP....
er... you know, at last count, there were well over 16,000 geeks registered on HoP....
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
i thought a few of those 16,000 were hippies no?
cole. x
i thought a few of those 16,000 were hippies no?
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
yeah, there are a few hippie geeks and a few techno geeks, but they(er, we...) are all geeks - we are all on a internet discussion forum basically talking about pyromania for pete's sake - what more do you want?
YOU ARE ALL GEEKS!!!!
(me too)
yeah, there are a few hippie geeks and a few techno geeks, but they(er, we...) are all geeks - we are all on a internet discussion forum basically talking about pyromania for pete's sake - what more do you want?
YOU ARE ALL GEEKS!!!!
(me too)
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA
Posted:
who ever said you can't be both!? (not that i am, i'm just a geek. geeks are the coolest people ever!) a hippie geek would just be somebody who runs his/her comp on solar!
who ever said you can't be both!? (not that i am, i'm just a geek. geeks are the coolest people ever!) a hippie geek would just be somebody who runs his/her comp on solar!
-James
"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
Shhh... Don't burst my liquid membrane wholly enclosing a volume of gas.
Written by: vanize
YOU ARE ALL GEEKS!!!!
Shhh... Don't burst my liquid membrane wholly enclosing a volume of gas.
monkeys ate my brain
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Aww, bless. You're all lovely anyways
Aww, bless. You're all lovely anyways
Getting to the other side
BRONZE Member
2,530 posts
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
2,530 posts
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posted:
fire is also something that exists in some people's hearts, and keeps them going
fire is also something that exists in some people's hearts, and keeps them going
We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams;
We are the movers and shakers of the world for ever, it seems.
SILVER Member
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Pasta of Muppets
2,722 posts
Location: in the interwebs..., United Kingdom
Posted:
Im a gippy... Geek + Hippy
Or a Heek?
Im a gippy... Geek + Hippy
Or a Heek?
ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
BRONZE Member
chemical attraction
1,097 posts
Location: Ilkeston, Derbyshire, England
chemical attraction
1,097 posts
Location: Ilkeston, Derbyshire, England
Posted:
or a swat/hippy.,...
swippy or a hipwat.
or a swat/hippy.,...
swippy or a hipwat.
analytic
503 posts
Location: bristol
503 posts
Location: bristol
Posted:
'the colour of fire is caused by the burning of oxygen'
no it isn't: it's caused by carbon emitting light. that's why the gas in your boiler burns with a BLUE flame (complete combustion, you see)
and you can get a fire going in zero G. they actually performed this experiment; the flame forms a thin blue shell around the head of the combusting material. convection currents are sufficient to sustain the fire. although whoever it was ^^[?] was right to suggest that fires in zero g won't do much.
'the colour of fire is caused by the burning of oxygen'
no it isn't: it's caused by carbon emitting light. that's why the gas in your boiler burns with a BLUE flame (complete combustion, you see)
and you can get a fire going in zero G. they actually performed this experiment; the flame forms a thin blue shell around the head of the combusting material. convection currents are sufficient to sustain the fire. although whoever it was ^^[?] was right to suggest that fires in zero g won't do much.
ture na sig
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