Forums > Technical Discussion > Constructive criticism please
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the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
You know I feel this is a good idea in concepts and I really like the commitment ideas.
There are things that I did feel uncomfortable with....
"To ensure that local fire safety regulations, laws and bylaws are followed"
This does not cover liability waivers which are fully legal. In the description it stated that the event organizer is responsible for obtaining these permits, which I have found to not be the case at all. In my contract I state they must pay for the permit but I, as the performer, am liable to actually get the permit, or other legal paperwork applying to the performance. Even places with exsisting fire permits on the venue require most fire performers to obtain an open fire permit, which is larger than a standard operating flame type permit (which covers candle).
In this respect, I find that the agreement will not cover alot of people.
"To ensure that there will be adequate insurance covering the performance with regard to public and property. - This is normally a requirement of the event organiser in order to get approval and or permits"
Again, this is not the responsibility of the venue. My point, the performer should always provide their own insurance seperate from the event organizer obviously, and not rely on the organizer to provide any of the legal documentation. A performer will need the insurance to get the permit. I find it is also easier to secure a permit if the performer is doing it rather than the e.o. The more the performer does this the more respect s/he will receive and the more comfortable everyone can be with the legalities behind the performance. It aso makes a person seem more sincere in their performing endeavors.
"To ensure a trained safety crew is in attendance. Which will be responsible for public, venue and fire performers safety"
I really liked the description for this but found this line to be waaaaaaaay too open ended. I find that some organizers will try to squeeze a rock 'til it bleeds, which means they will try to find anyway to either blame a performer or screw them. This line literally reads that the safety crew is responsible for everything that night. I can not disagree with that enough. My crew is supposed to handle *non-aggressive* crowd control and bouncers/public safety is to be available for anything beyond that. My crew is to tend to me, my performance and if something is to go wrong within the limitations of the show, but nothing beyond that.
Lastly I would like to add that I think a performer is 100% liable for what s/he does no matter what, beyond the last two commitments and covering them all. That's why all safety measures should be in place, a performer should know the limitations and work within them in a performance capacity, because we are liable we are prone to being more cautious and more "professional" in approach.
As for the safety things, the check of gear, the possible paperwork....you might want to provide a downloadable checklist of things. It's what I have handed out to people who ask me about these very things, and I include one in my packet for the fire authorities and my advanced promo packet.
However, I also need to point out, that the safety packet does not need to be in full description for a venue, but it does for a fire marshall. Many times the venue could care less what I use as long as I put on a show, but the fire authority wants a full run down. For this reason I have created two seperate packets to accomodate the needs and wants of these people, includes MSDS sheets (which I think should be a requirement...that people have the MSDS sheet on the fuels they use), as well as the contents of a burn kit first aide kit with instructions, and many other things. You might want to concider something along these lines as well, and in the registration have people put the serial number of the fire extinguisher they have down, that type of thing. I can check yes in a box but that does not mean I have it, you know? Our fire authorities here take down our insurance numbers, the fire extinguisher serial number, and such things as full out proof. What do you think?
Just my thoughts. Overall I think it is strong, just, as you said, needs some polishing.
Nice job!
[ 18 April 2002, 15:53: Message edited by: Pele ]
You know I feel this is a good idea in concepts and I really like the commitment ideas.
There are things that I did feel uncomfortable with....
"To ensure that local fire safety regulations, laws and bylaws are followed"
This does not cover liability waivers which are fully legal. In the description it stated that the event organizer is responsible for obtaining these permits, which I have found to not be the case at all. In my contract I state they must pay for the permit but I, as the performer, am liable to actually get the permit, or other legal paperwork applying to the performance. Even places with exsisting fire permits on the venue require most fire performers to obtain an open fire permit, which is larger than a standard operating flame type permit (which covers candle).
In this respect, I find that the agreement will not cover alot of people.
"To ensure that there will be adequate insurance covering the performance with regard to public and property. - This is normally a requirement of the event organiser in order to get approval and or permits"
Again, this is not the responsibility of the venue. My point, the performer should always provide their own insurance seperate from the event organizer obviously, and not rely on the organizer to provide any of the legal documentation. A performer will need the insurance to get the permit. I find it is also easier to secure a permit if the performer is doing it rather than the e.o. The more the performer does this the more respect s/he will receive and the more comfortable everyone can be with the legalities behind the performance. It aso makes a person seem more sincere in their performing endeavors.
"To ensure a trained safety crew is in attendance. Which will be responsible for public, venue and fire performers safety"
I really liked the description for this but found this line to be waaaaaaaay too open ended. I find that some organizers will try to squeeze a rock 'til it bleeds, which means they will try to find anyway to either blame a performer or screw them. This line literally reads that the safety crew is responsible for everything that night. I can not disagree with that enough. My crew is supposed to handle *non-aggressive* crowd control and bouncers/public safety is to be available for anything beyond that. My crew is to tend to me, my performance and if something is to go wrong within the limitations of the show, but nothing beyond that.
Lastly I would like to add that I think a performer is 100% liable for what s/he does no matter what, beyond the last two commitments and covering them all. That's why all safety measures should be in place, a performer should know the limitations and work within them in a performance capacity, because we are liable we are prone to being more cautious and more "professional" in approach.
As for the safety things, the check of gear, the possible paperwork....you might want to provide a downloadable checklist of things. It's what I have handed out to people who ask me about these very things, and I include one in my packet for the fire authorities and my advanced promo packet.
However, I also need to point out, that the safety packet does not need to be in full description for a venue, but it does for a fire marshall. Many times the venue could care less what I use as long as I put on a show, but the fire authority wants a full run down. For this reason I have created two seperate packets to accomodate the needs and wants of these people, includes MSDS sheets (which I think should be a requirement...that people have the MSDS sheet on the fuels they use), as well as the contents of a burn kit first aide kit with instructions, and many other things. You might want to concider something along these lines as well, and in the registration have people put the serial number of the fire extinguisher they have down, that type of thing. I can check yes in a box but that does not mean I have it, you know? Our fire authorities here take down our insurance numbers, the fire extinguisher serial number, and such things as full out proof. What do you think?
Just my thoughts. Overall I think it is strong, just, as you said, needs some polishing.
Nice job!
[ 18 April 2002, 15:53: Message edited by: Pele ]
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
freelance bum
286 posts
Location: Upstairs, Australia
freelance bum
286 posts
Location: Upstairs, Australia
Posted:
When I recently spoke to Willow, the site organiser for the Fremantle Busker's Festival, he said that performers now needed 10's of millions of dollars worth of public liability insurance. A little while ago it may have been as little as a million, but insurance companies are now paying for the cleanup bill for the WTC disaster and passing the bill onto consumers as well as they new level of paranoia that "it WILL happen". We get to feel it now too.
I agree that the statement about a trained safety crew. I have a fire fighter's certificate from the CAA and a Senior First Aid certificate from St John's ambulance, yet my Occ Health & Safety qualification dates back to '93. I assume this is the type of thing you mean, but in this kind of charter there should be little room for assumption. It will be difficult for you to find relevant certificates for all the countries that performers may be in, but I feel that listing something more specific will add another level of credibility to the charter. The description aknowledges the requirements and points out the best areas to look at, but it feels like a recommendation than a requirement.
Here are some more of the requirements for a fire performance at the Freo Busker's Fest. For all the outdoor street pitches, some on closed off roads and a pedestrian mall, there needed to be a clearly demarcated performance area, preferably with a physical barrier. At least one person to act as crowd control to keep the wanderers from walking on-stage and getting toasted. There were to be no open fuel containers, which meant that the dipper had to be covered, and in the end most performers chose to simply pour onto their equipment from a closable bottle. A fire extinguisher and fire blanket (in working order etc) and a bucket of water.
Most other events I have worked have had a far lower emphasis on safety coming from the event organiser. I can imagine that if there was a problem, we personally would be in deep. The commitment charter is a fantastic idea that I will try to live up to asap and promote to any other performers. I would like to help with any more research you'd like covered for Australia if it's necessary.
[ 18 April 2002, 18:35: Message edited by: audax ]
When I recently spoke to Willow, the site organiser for the Fremantle Busker's Festival, he said that performers now needed 10's of millions of dollars worth of public liability insurance. A little while ago it may have been as little as a million, but insurance companies are now paying for the cleanup bill for the WTC disaster and passing the bill onto consumers as well as they new level of paranoia that "it WILL happen". We get to feel it now too.
I agree that the statement about a trained safety crew. I have a fire fighter's certificate from the CAA and a Senior First Aid certificate from St John's ambulance, yet my Occ Health & Safety qualification dates back to '93. I assume this is the type of thing you mean, but in this kind of charter there should be little room for assumption. It will be difficult for you to find relevant certificates for all the countries that performers may be in, but I feel that listing something more specific will add another level of credibility to the charter. The description aknowledges the requirements and points out the best areas to look at, but it feels like a recommendation than a requirement.
Here are some more of the requirements for a fire performance at the Freo Busker's Fest. For all the outdoor street pitches, some on closed off roads and a pedestrian mall, there needed to be a clearly demarcated performance area, preferably with a physical barrier. At least one person to act as crowd control to keep the wanderers from walking on-stage and getting toasted. There were to be no open fuel containers, which meant that the dipper had to be covered, and in the end most performers chose to simply pour onto their equipment from a closable bottle. A fire extinguisher and fire blanket (in working order etc) and a bucket of water.
Most other events I have worked have had a far lower emphasis on safety coming from the event organiser. I can imagine that if there was a problem, we personally would be in deep. The commitment charter is a fantastic idea that I will try to live up to asap and promote to any other performers. I would like to help with any more research you'd like covered for Australia if it's necessary.
[ 18 April 2002, 18:35: Message edited by: audax ]
UYI 
OLDSKOOL
poo-bah
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
Posted:
While I agree with the intent of all this, and think it is a good idea, I've recently come to understand that it is quite possible that a promoter might want to hire a performer for a gig that the fire marshal would not issue a permit for, or even for permits to be ambiguous. Officialdom's policies regarding fire performance, insofar as they exist at all, are not necessarily consistent.
How would this commitment relate if an event promoter wanted an act that could not get a permit? I guess this gets back to Pele's waiver concept. I'm thinking specifically of indoor performances, which currently aren't permitted in Austin, but have been in the past, so there are permit-holders who were allowed to perform indoors when they got their permits, and not having heard anything to contrary, probably assume it's still OK.
While I agree with the intent of all this, and think it is a good idea, I've recently come to understand that it is quite possible that a promoter might want to hire a performer for a gig that the fire marshal would not issue a permit for, or even for permits to be ambiguous. Officialdom's policies regarding fire performance, insofar as they exist at all, are not necessarily consistent.
How would this commitment relate if an event promoter wanted an act that could not get a permit? I guess this gets back to Pele's waiver concept. I'm thinking specifically of indoor performances, which currently aren't permitted in Austin, but have been in the past, so there are permit-holders who were allowed to perform indoors when they got their permits, and not having heard anything to contrary, probably assume it's still OK.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy
poo-bah
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
Posted:
Malcolm--
It's a confusing subject. Within the USA, fire permits vary from one locality to another. In Austin, the performer gets a permit that is good for one year. In some places, permits are issued per event, I believe. And IIRC, in Boston, there are no permits: you need to hire an off-duty fire marshal to officiate at the event. And of course the requirements for the permit can vary. It's not for us to say what a permit should cover, it's for us to work with the facts as we find them, and perhaps work gradually with officialdom to change. I know there are a couple of organizations in the USA trying to develop standard codes for fire performers:
https://www.nafaa.org/
https://www.torchery.com/
Another point: from what I've seen and heard, a lot of venue operators and promoters are not very professional themselves. This is not to excuse unprofessional behavior by fire performers, but simply to point out that the people we're dealing with might not know the difference.
Malcolm--
It's a confusing subject. Within the USA, fire permits vary from one locality to another. In Austin, the performer gets a permit that is good for one year. In some places, permits are issued per event, I believe. And IIRC, in Boston, there are no permits: you need to hire an off-duty fire marshal to officiate at the event. And of course the requirements for the permit can vary. It's not for us to say what a permit should cover, it's for us to work with the facts as we find them, and perhaps work gradually with officialdom to change. I know there are a couple of organizations in the USA trying to develop standard codes for fire performers:
https://www.nafaa.org/
https://www.torchery.com/
quote:In another life, I worked at a pack-and-ship place. We'd occasionally get customers who insisted that we pack something for them, but not up to our own standards. Normally, if we packed something and it broke in transit, we'd cover the loss (or get the freight company to cover it), but not in these cases. We had a special form that we'd have them sign to acknowledge this. I think this is a closer analogy.
What would a hirer think of our professionalism if we ask them to sign a waiver for responsability in case it goes wrong?
Another point: from what I've seen and heard, a lot of venue operators and promoters are not very professional themselves. This is not to excuse unprofessional behavior by fire performers, but simply to point out that the people we're dealing with might not know the difference.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy
member
212 posts
Location: tampa fl usa
212 posts
Location: tampa fl usa
Posted:
Malcolm i like what you did only thing that threw me alittle was the safe part maybe defining safe a little more clear might help that
some might say playing with fire isnt safe another might say blowing a 4o ft fire ball up someones butt is safe everyone has there own defitition of safe. i filled out your form and sent it to you maybe seeing it filled out will help..
i like where this thread has gone with the car brakes and all and waviers,, back in the day i used to manage a Midas muffler and brake shop i was asked to do sub standard work all the time and even asked if i would do it with a waviar being signed,, the answer was always no
and it was no for a couple of reasons for one Midas liked to rip people off and the other was from the corporate lawyers they said that because the other party(meaning anyone who was damaged by the sub standard work who didnt sign the wavier could sue ) and they did just that to severl shops while i was with them
I asked my lawyer about this wavier theory not saying that anyone is wrong here.. but here in fl his advise to me was if i planned to use one i should retain him before hand and make sure i have bail money tucked away in my shoe,
because i term myself as a professional and take money for what i do.. new or old it makes me libial and responsible in a different degree than just some smoe who walks up and lights his wicks ..
I like the idea of having some form of protocol
as far as saftey i dont know about the rest of you but i love what i do with the flame and it only takes one person making a mess in any of our areas and you can bet that will change what and how we can do things , it has already happened in south fl you might have laughed when i talked about someone blowing fire on someones ass but i saw that one night walking into a club and i asked the guy do you think thats safe he answered "yes i have never burnt anyone before "
i looked down at this girl and the area she was in i could see the raw fuel on her and the area they were using from what didnt burn during his blow he then took another drink of his beer then some more fuel and blew on this poor girl again
he didnt lite her up why i dont know but i told the club ownwer what was going on along with the fact he didnt have one safety messure in place not even a wet towel in sight . the owner told me oh he does that all the time hes safe,, the next weekend he lights some chick on fire , guess what now no one can do anything there with a flame ..
malcom keep up the good work like this list .. i do the best i can by leading by example keeeping fresh in my mind no matter how good we are everyone makes a mistake
Malcolm i like what you did only thing that threw me alittle was the safe part maybe defining safe a little more clear might help that
some might say playing with fire isnt safe another might say blowing a 4o ft fire ball up someones butt is safe everyone has there own defitition of safe. i filled out your form and sent it to you maybe seeing it filled out will help..
i like where this thread has gone with the car brakes and all and waviers,, back in the day i used to manage a Midas muffler and brake shop i was asked to do sub standard work all the time and even asked if i would do it with a waviar being signed,, the answer was always no
and it was no for a couple of reasons for one Midas liked to rip people off and the other was from the corporate lawyers they said that because the other party(meaning anyone who was damaged by the sub standard work who didnt sign the wavier could sue ) and they did just that to severl shops while i was with them
I asked my lawyer about this wavier theory not saying that anyone is wrong here.. but here in fl his advise to me was if i planned to use one i should retain him before hand and make sure i have bail money tucked away in my shoe,
because i term myself as a professional and take money for what i do.. new or old it makes me libial and responsible in a different degree than just some smoe who walks up and lights his wicks ..
I like the idea of having some form of protocol
as far as saftey i dont know about the rest of you but i love what i do with the flame and it only takes one person making a mess in any of our areas and you can bet that will change what and how we can do things , it has already happened in south fl you might have laughed when i talked about someone blowing fire on someones ass but i saw that one night walking into a club and i asked the guy do you think thats safe he answered "yes i have never burnt anyone before "
i looked down at this girl and the area she was in i could see the raw fuel on her and the area they were using from what didnt burn during his blow he then took another drink of his beer then some more fuel and blew on this poor girl again
he didnt lite her up why i dont know but i told the club ownwer what was going on along with the fact he didnt have one safety messure in place not even a wet towel in sight . the owner told me oh he does that all the time hes safe,, the next weekend he lights some chick on fire , guess what now no one can do anything there with a flame ..
malcom keep up the good work like this list .. i do the best i can by leading by example keeeping fresh in my mind no matter how good we are everyone makes a mistake
I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all
poo-bah
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
Posted:
Malcolm--
You raise a good point. Breaking a package is not the same as endangering people.
I'll throw out a counter-idea though: "legal" and "safe" are two different concepts. While it is not our job to second-guess the fire marshal, the fact that there are different codes in different places can't be ascribed entirely to different safety concerns--a lot of it must be individual judgement calls, some of which are better informed than others.
A performer getting a venue operator to assume legal liability is one thing; a performer getting a waiver to be released from safe practice is another.
A somewhat-related point (which ties into the "local safety regs" thread). While the fire-performer permits currently issued by the Austin fire marshal forbid indoor performances, I was twirling fire indoors at a club last night. I was talking with one of the people who works there, and he told me that the club owner got explicit permission from the fire marshal to have fire indoors. And this would be recent, since the club recently changed hands. A strict reading of the situation might suggest that a firedancer without a permit *could* perform at the club, but one with a permit should not. I would like to find out the name of the guy who said it was OK.
Clearly there's some ambiguity. There may be more ins and outs to this than I'm aware. Perhaps there are per-venue permits as well as the per-performer permits that I know Austin has. Perhaps some cities only have per-venue permits, in which case responsibility would be on the venue operator, not the performer.
While I agree with the intent of the idea of ensuring that the laws are followed, I find the legal landscape to be very confusing. I don't want to be a scofflaw, but my gut tells me that a more realistic wording of that clause might be something like this:
"To make a good-faith effort to follow local fire safety regulations, laws and bylaws."
You might also put in something like "and to advise venue operators, organizers, promoters, etc, of fire-related regulations" but this could open a really ugly can of worms.
Malcolm--
You raise a good point. Breaking a package is not the same as endangering people.
I'll throw out a counter-idea though: "legal" and "safe" are two different concepts. While it is not our job to second-guess the fire marshal, the fact that there are different codes in different places can't be ascribed entirely to different safety concerns--a lot of it must be individual judgement calls, some of which are better informed than others.
A performer getting a venue operator to assume legal liability is one thing; a performer getting a waiver to be released from safe practice is another.
A somewhat-related point (which ties into the "local safety regs" thread). While the fire-performer permits currently issued by the Austin fire marshal forbid indoor performances, I was twirling fire indoors at a club last night. I was talking with one of the people who works there, and he told me that the club owner got explicit permission from the fire marshal to have fire indoors. And this would be recent, since the club recently changed hands. A strict reading of the situation might suggest that a firedancer without a permit *could* perform at the club, but one with a permit should not. I would like to find out the name of the guy who said it was OK.
Clearly there's some ambiguity. There may be more ins and outs to this than I'm aware. Perhaps there are per-venue permits as well as the per-performer permits that I know Austin has. Perhaps some cities only have per-venue permits, in which case responsibility would be on the venue operator, not the performer.
While I agree with the intent of the idea of ensuring that the laws are followed, I find the legal landscape to be very confusing. I don't want to be a scofflaw, but my gut tells me that a more realistic wording of that clause might be something like this:
"To make a good-faith effort to follow local fire safety regulations, laws and bylaws."
You might also put in something like "and to advise venue operators, organizers, promoters, etc, of fire-related regulations" but this could open a really ugly can of worms.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I haven'tread everything and won't get to this evening (but will) however, I just want to point out that torchery.com is actually trying to do a grass roots thing and get fire performers to locally organize, within the limits of their own laws. There are safety things we would like standard everywhere, but it depends on local codes. I am working with him on organising the northeast while he is doing the southeast. Some where we are hoping to bring it together in the middle. But it is nothing so grand in scale as what Malcolm is doing, it is very grass routes thusfar and we expect for it to take awhile to really work. Also, Portland, Oregon already has something on a local scale for this and it seems to be working wonderfully.
I haven'tread everything and won't get to this evening (but will) however, I just want to point out that torchery.com is actually trying to do a grass roots thing and get fire performers to locally organize, within the limits of their own laws. There are safety things we would like standard everywhere, but it depends on local codes. I am working with him on organising the northeast while he is doing the southeast. Some where we are hoping to bring it together in the middle. But it is nothing so grand in scale as what Malcolm is doing, it is very grass routes thusfar and we expect for it to take awhile to really work. Also, Portland, Oregon already has something on a local scale for this and it seems to be working wonderfully.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
member
521 posts
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
member
521 posts
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posted:
all sounds great to me...
I am pleased that it has been kept general enough to accomodate different places throughout the world (eg there are no specific permits set up for what we do here)... and yet does focus on key aspects of a "professional" or at least safe performance.
Should there be some conditions on types of fuels used? I know there are differences of opinions re. what is safe or not as discussed throughout these boards. (and even the naming of such)
It mainly is a matter of people understanding the properties of the fuel/s they are using. Perhaps you will address this upon application - I guess it should become obvious to you if a performer is informed about what they are using...
It is just in my local experience that the main industry-threatening accidents that have happened here have related to mis-information/ lack of understanding about fuels... (in particular people using shellite because it doesn't smell as bad and not understanding that it has such a very low flashpoint)... anyway didn't mean to go on about specifics..
On the whole I think the regulations are comprehensive without being country/area specific which is great... I just think that it is just as important to have safe fuels as, say, checking equipment before each show...
all sounds great to me...
I am pleased that it has been kept general enough to accomodate different places throughout the world (eg there are no specific permits set up for what we do here)... and yet does focus on key aspects of a "professional" or at least safe performance.
Should there be some conditions on types of fuels used? I know there are differences of opinions re. what is safe or not as discussed throughout these boards. (and even the naming of such)
It mainly is a matter of people understanding the properties of the fuel/s they are using. Perhaps you will address this upon application - I guess it should become obvious to you if a performer is informed about what they are using...
It is just in my local experience that the main industry-threatening accidents that have happened here have related to mis-information/ lack of understanding about fuels... (in particular people using shellite because it doesn't smell as bad and not understanding that it has such a very low flashpoint)... anyway didn't mean to go on about specifics..
On the whole I think the regulations are comprehensive without being country/area specific which is great... I just think that it is just as important to have safe fuels as, say, checking equipment before each show...
BRONZE Member
freelance bum
286 posts
Location: Upstairs, Australia
freelance bum
286 posts
Location: Upstairs, Australia
Posted:
I think we should work out what really is the most approporiate fire extinguisher. Water puts fires out but a water ext. isn't much better than a bucket of water and it is useless for fuel fires, and is in fact more dangerous. A CO2 extinguisher is good for fuel but shouldn't be used on people and is is pretty pointless in the open. It was intended for electrical fires mostly. A dry chem ext. is ok to use for fuel fires but it isn't really the best all round. That leaves the expensive and environmentally damaging ABC ext. The foamy one does it all but for putting people out, a fire blanket is best. It also puts out "bucket" fires very easily.
Fuels. To keep it general we can't be too specific about what not to use but I think it is in the best interests to say no petrol. It's so obvious it seems to go without saying, but there is always the moron factor.
Another safety factor. Someone recently accidently put our twirling kero into a petrol generator! Luckily the geny survived and the party went on, but it could be mentioned that there should be duty of care to not allow this to happen.
If this works out well, do you think that in areas where fire performance has been banned, would it be possible to show that the accident that happened was due to lack of professionalism and guidelines such as these, and make it possible for only charter following acts to perform, thus cutting out the have-a-go-heroes?
I think we should work out what really is the most approporiate fire extinguisher. Water puts fires out but a water ext. isn't much better than a bucket of water and it is useless for fuel fires, and is in fact more dangerous. A CO2 extinguisher is good for fuel but shouldn't be used on people and is is pretty pointless in the open. It was intended for electrical fires mostly. A dry chem ext. is ok to use for fuel fires but it isn't really the best all round. That leaves the expensive and environmentally damaging ABC ext. The foamy one does it all but for putting people out, a fire blanket is best. It also puts out "bucket" fires very easily.
Fuels. To keep it general we can't be too specific about what not to use but I think it is in the best interests to say no petrol. It's so obvious it seems to go without saying, but there is always the moron factor.
Another safety factor. Someone recently accidently put our twirling kero into a petrol generator! Luckily the geny survived and the party went on, but it could be mentioned that there should be duty of care to not allow this to happen.
If this works out well, do you think that in areas where fire performance has been banned, would it be possible to show that the accident that happened was due to lack of professionalism and guidelines such as these, and make it possible for only charter following acts to perform, thus cutting out the have-a-go-heroes?
UYI OLDSKOOL
SILVER Member
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Posted:
I think it sounds good other than the permit thing. I understand that to create standards you definately should shoot for what will be the most safe. To cover not only the performer, but to cover the audience and everyone's safety. However the local Fire Marshall that I spoke to, told me I did not need a permit to spin fire in a club, and that the club's permit covers it. I feel that this is too strict a requirement to make just for a "professionalism" stamp. You can be professional, and not have a permit. Ultimately it falls upon the performer, not HOP or the stamp. I feel if we were a guild, and everyone was joining the guild that would be different. I dunno, just my 2gp..
PLURR
ÇrÐ
I think it sounds good other than the permit thing. I understand that to create standards you definately should shoot for what will be the most safe. To cover not only the performer, but to cover the audience and everyone's safety. However the local Fire Marshall that I spoke to, told me I did not need a permit to spin fire in a club, and that the club's permit covers it. I feel that this is too strict a requirement to make just for a "professionalism" stamp. You can be professional, and not have a permit. Ultimately it falls upon the performer, not HOP or the stamp. I feel if we were a guild, and everyone was joining the guild that would be different. I dunno, just my 2gp..
PLURR
ÇrÐ
-=ÇrazyRaverÐude=-
member
97 posts
Location: Naples, Florida
97 posts
Location: Naples, Florida
Posted:
I would join this conversation, but CRD above me, has already stated everything I had to say, but perhaps this only applies to the area we live in.
PLUR
DOC
I would join this conversation, but CRD above me, has already stated everything I had to say, but perhaps this only applies to the area we live in.
PLUR
DOC
Let us Light up the Night
enthusiast
237 posts
237 posts
Posted:
Malcom,
I support Pele's suggestion of the downloadable checklist. Considering the main issue is providing a listing of performers who are in agreeance to commit to guidelines for professionalism so that potential organisers can contact people who are the real deal I think you should also encourage a minimum amount of information that performers should have on hand. Kind of a resume of sorts that contains the checklist you have provided as well as the relevant info. Here's an example:
Upon request from an organiser a performer will be able to provide-
A filled out copy of the checklist stating they are in agreeance with the outlines.
(as a minimum) A copy of local/state fire laws pertaining to public/private performance.
**If, when obtaining this info, it becomes apparent that a permit is required then they can get one and be adhering to the guidelines. If no permit is required (as in Australia) then they at least have the legal rules and also are adhering to the guidelines**
A copy of their insurance contract.
**I would assume people/professionals get coverage for a period rather than one off coverage and therefore incorparate it into their charges for the performance**
(as already suggested)A written copy of what you will be doing and the dangers surrounding.
**Maybe included in the checklist as most of the stuff we do equates to the same dangers/performance space**
A copy of the first aid certificate from the safety or the performer.
A list of the fuels used and their MSDS sheets.
If you made it mandatory for people to have those things I reckon in every country you would have your bases covered. Even though a prospective employer mightn't read the MSDS sheet, giving it means that you have made them aware and also extinguishing a fire that may come back to burn you (hee hee ). In a case of litigation the more you have proactively done to prevent the event the stronger your defence (though were aiming for that never to happen of course).
I'm also concerned about your reputation and legal safety too Malcom. As Pele said, anyone can check a box and bullsh!t you, bringing responsibility to you as well. I have horrible images of someone given the 'professional tick' screwing up cause they don't actually have all the info/coverage and you being dragged in to litigation for having given them a professional rating.
Rather than just a filled out checklist online I think people could send you a copy of the details outlined above. I know this would add clutter to your office/life but at least you'd be assured that due dilligence had been done and the people who wanted the rating deserve it. It'd cost most people under 10 bucks to send this stuff to you. I don't think it's too much hassle or cost if you're a 'professional' preformer to do this.
*timid voice* Don't know if you'd want the extra filing though.
I'm loving watching this conversation. Lots of intelligent people around here.
Sorry for the rant but that's my feedback
Malcom,
I support Pele's suggestion of the downloadable checklist. Considering the main issue is providing a listing of performers who are in agreeance to commit to guidelines for professionalism so that potential organisers can contact people who are the real deal I think you should also encourage a minimum amount of information that performers should have on hand. Kind of a resume of sorts that contains the checklist you have provided as well as the relevant info. Here's an example:
Upon request from an organiser a performer will be able to provide-
A filled out copy of the checklist stating they are in agreeance with the outlines.
(as a minimum) A copy of local/state fire laws pertaining to public/private performance.
**If, when obtaining this info, it becomes apparent that a permit is required then they can get one and be adhering to the guidelines. If no permit is required (as in Australia) then they at least have the legal rules and also are adhering to the guidelines**
A copy of their insurance contract.
**I would assume people/professionals get coverage for a period rather than one off coverage and therefore incorparate it into their charges for the performance**
(as already suggested)A written copy of what you will be doing and the dangers surrounding.
**Maybe included in the checklist as most of the stuff we do equates to the same dangers/performance space**
A copy of the first aid certificate from the safety or the performer.
A list of the fuels used and their MSDS sheets.
If you made it mandatory for people to have those things I reckon in every country you would have your bases covered. Even though a prospective employer mightn't read the MSDS sheet, giving it means that you have made them aware and also extinguishing a fire that may come back to burn you (hee hee ). In a case of litigation the more you have proactively done to prevent the event the stronger your defence (though were aiming for that never to happen of course).
I'm also concerned about your reputation and legal safety too Malcom. As Pele said, anyone can check a box and bullsh!t you, bringing responsibility to you as well. I have horrible images of someone given the 'professional tick' screwing up cause they don't actually have all the info/coverage and you being dragged in to litigation for having given them a professional rating.
Rather than just a filled out checklist online I think people could send you a copy of the details outlined above. I know this would add clutter to your office/life but at least you'd be assured that due dilligence had been done and the people who wanted the rating deserve it. It'd cost most people under 10 bucks to send this stuff to you. I don't think it's too much hassle or cost if you're a 'professional' preformer to do this.
*timid voice* Don't know if you'd want the extra filing though.
I'm loving watching this conversation. Lots of intelligent people around here.
Sorry for the rant but that's my feedback
poo-bah
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
Posted:
Just as long as we're kicking ideas around...
Should there be a checklist for event promoters too?
Just as long as we're kicking ideas around...
Should there be a checklist for event promoters too?
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy
member
135 posts
Location: Akron, Ohio
135 posts
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posted:
How can any of this be proven? If I say I spin fire safely in Ohio, and no one sees me spin fire, did I even spin fire at all? I thought the whole service was to help promoters locate fire performers in thier area. Not to garentee the quality and safety of the performance. Boy! what an ordeal that would be to prove.
I can't speak internationaly, but here in the U.S. alot of what everyone is talking about is already set-up. Everything everyone has suggested is already been written, on both a state and federal level.
If the problem is the list is too long and too many people are joining it (that shouldn't) charge money. Granted then a service needs to be provided (like web space for a portfolio and resume to be up loaded) Check Elance and how they go about certifing information and their set-up.
IMHO: I just see too many headaches in this plan.
How can any of this be proven? If I say I spin fire safely in Ohio, and no one sees me spin fire, did I even spin fire at all? I thought the whole service was to help promoters locate fire performers in thier area. Not to garentee the quality and safety of the performance. Boy! what an ordeal that would be to prove.
I can't speak internationaly, but here in the U.S. alot of what everyone is talking about is already set-up. Everything everyone has suggested is already been written, on both a state and federal level.
If the problem is the list is too long and too many people are joining it (that shouldn't) charge money. Granted then a service needs to be provided (like web space for a portfolio and resume to be up loaded) Check Elance and how they go about certifing information and their set-up.
IMHO: I just see too many headaches in this plan.
Nothing good ever comes from hanging out with normal people.
BRONZE Member
freelance bum
286 posts
Location: Upstairs, Australia
freelance bum
286 posts
Location: Upstairs, Australia
Posted:
Maelstrom: The charter itself is a proposal to establish a way that a troupe can show their professionalism. The laws exist for sure but we all know that not everyone follows them and that a promoter currently has very few ways of discerning the difference between cowboys and safe fire acts. NAFAA exists but it's still early days and it's not international. fireperformers.com is a database of performers for event organisers to finds acts. The Professional fireperformers strategy is a charter that listees can be signed to, it's not automatically done by being on the database, and rightly so.
I think we can all agree that something needs to be done to promote safety in the industry and so far the charter seems to be the best approach. I think that setting up something like elance for fire performance is a bigger headache, and the idea that elance would have a new catagory for fire atists alongside IT & Admin?...anyway
Malcolm: I hope I'm not out of line with this response
Maelstrom: The charter itself is a proposal to establish a way that a troupe can show their professionalism. The laws exist for sure but we all know that not everyone follows them and that a promoter currently has very few ways of discerning the difference between cowboys and safe fire acts. NAFAA exists but it's still early days and it's not international. fireperformers.com is a database of performers for event organisers to finds acts. The Professional fireperformers strategy is a charter that listees can be signed to, it's not automatically done by being on the database, and rightly so.
I think we can all agree that something needs to be done to promote safety in the industry and so far the charter seems to be the best approach. I think that setting up something like elance for fire performance is a bigger headache, and the idea that elance would have a new catagory for fire atists alongside IT & Admin?...anyway
Malcolm: I hope I'm not out of line with this response
UYI OLDSKOOL
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Audax. I agree completely, I've been lurking on this thread since it started, as I have a number of conflicting views (within myself).
However, I completely and utterly agree with your post. Even if that wasn't the reason, it is still avery valid one, and one that concerns me a lot.
One of my biggest fears is the uneducated people who aren't aware of potential problems and truly believe they are being safe, and then something goes wrong...
Audax. I agree completely, I've been lurking on this thread since it started, as I have a number of conflicting views (within myself).
However, I completely and utterly agree with your post. Even if that wasn't the reason, it is still avery valid one, and one that concerns me a lot.
One of my biggest fears is the uneducated people who aren't aware of potential problems and truly believe they are being safe, and then something goes wrong...
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member
135 posts
Location: Akron, Ohio
135 posts
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posted:
I'm sorry, I was miss understood, and I think my reply was taken more agressivly then I intended. I was just suggesting that simply signing up and getting a logo placed next to your name, was no way of proving that you are a safe fire performer.
Elance uses a system of varifications to insure some sort of quality control. The subscribers have the choice of getting information varified, or not. I would be willing to bet that those with varifications get more attention, then those that do not. I wasn't suggesting setting up Elance for fire performing. Please.....give me alittle more cerdit then that.
BTW: They do have international fire guidlines. We were just learning about them today. I asked some good quiestions, and the guy is supposed to get back with me by the end of the week. I'll make it a point to reference them for you. Once again sorry for the misunderstanding.
I'm sorry, I was miss understood, and I think my reply was taken more agressivly then I intended. I was just suggesting that simply signing up and getting a logo placed next to your name, was no way of proving that you are a safe fire performer.
Elance uses a system of varifications to insure some sort of quality control. The subscribers have the choice of getting information varified, or not. I would be willing to bet that those with varifications get more attention, then those that do not. I wasn't suggesting setting up Elance for fire performing. Please.....give me alittle more cerdit then that.
BTW: They do have international fire guidlines. We were just learning about them today. I asked some good quiestions, and the guy is supposed to get back with me by the end of the week. I'll make it a point to reference them for you. Once again sorry for the misunderstanding.
Nothing good ever comes from hanging out with normal people.
BRONZE Member
freelance bum
286 posts
Location: Upstairs, Australia
freelance bum
286 posts
Location: Upstairs, Australia
Posted:
Sorry about the condesending tone. Just trying to keep this on track.
I agree that simply putting your name down as a pro is too easy, but I feel that verifying anything is still to great a task for Malcolm to have to do. How about having a bibliography attached to listings that gives serial numbers, member numbers and relevant organisation contacts as a way of proving that you really do have a fire extinguisher/1st Aid cert./permit so that an event organiser can have a check themselves? By putting it up front like that, it can be seen to be real, and not just someone ticking a box and saying "oh yeah, I'm a pro".
Sorry about the condesending tone. Just trying to keep this on track.
I agree that simply putting your name down as a pro is too easy, but I feel that verifying anything is still to great a task for Malcolm to have to do. How about having a bibliography attached to listings that gives serial numbers, member numbers and relevant organisation contacts as a way of proving that you really do have a fire extinguisher/1st Aid cert./permit so that an event organiser can have a check themselves? By putting it up front like that, it can be seen to be real, and not just someone ticking a box and saying "oh yeah, I'm a pro".
UYI OLDSKOOL
SILVER Member
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Posted:
Here's a spin off an idea I read above..
I definately think that some sort of check should be made..and the more steps you put in front of the everyday joe-schmoe..the less likely they are to actually go through with the trouble. I think it would be a good idea to mail off to Malcolm(or maybe a volunteer of HOP?) an "application"..this would include copies of all the requirements listed, and maybe even charge a small processing fee. All of this, with the small fee I think might be enough of a detterant to the "cowboys". It's one thing to put together a bunch of fake electronic documents on a computer..but it's another to actually send copies of documents (and maybe even a signed affidavit(sp?) that says all info is correct and legal.
Just my 2gp....
Here's a spin off an idea I read above..
I definately think that some sort of check should be made..and the more steps you put in front of the everyday joe-schmoe..the less likely they are to actually go through with the trouble. I think it would be a good idea to mail off to Malcolm(or maybe a volunteer of HOP?) an "application"..this would include copies of all the requirements listed, and maybe even charge a small processing fee. All of this, with the small fee I think might be enough of a detterant to the "cowboys". It's one thing to put together a bunch of fake electronic documents on a computer..but it's another to actually send copies of documents (and maybe even a signed affidavit(sp?) that says all info is correct and legal.
Just my 2gp....
-=ÇrazyRaverÐude=-
member
135 posts
Location: Akron, Ohio
135 posts
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posted:
In my head I always come back to the point that it is the event corrdiator, or party promotor's responsibility to do the "checking up" on their hired acts. However......
In order to get my performer's insurance I had to join a clown association, and promise to follow all of thier rules. Because the clown group gets its insurance from the same place, we all get it fairly cheap. I also got a membership card, patch, a newsletter, and certificate (which make for jokes). Maybe these type organizations could be a model for an international fire organization. You pay to join, sign an agreement saying you will act accordingly (personally I like what Malcom has already come up with, just I think he should add that the organization is not responsible for anyone not behaving by the rules they agreed to behave by. Then of course comes the insurance for joining the organization. If a member has to collect on their policy, and the insurance company finds the performer at fault, that person is removed from the organization. Mainly because as a group who wants to pay higher insurance rates because someone messed up somewhere else in the world. On a personal note then I would stop getting a clown newsletter that I don't give a crap about, and my friends could stop calling me a clown (not that I really care, but the joke is getting old).
That way everyone starts out being trusted, and concidered safe. You would have to do something to lose that trust. The organization can also, at least, guarentee that all of it's members are insured. No one has to varify anything. It's kind of self varifying, and maintatining. No membership, no policy number.......no policy number, no listing, and no cool stuff that lets everyone know you are a fire performer.
Please don't flame me, I'm just trying to help. I would love to see an organization like this start and be one of the first truely international groups in the world.
In my head I always come back to the point that it is the event corrdiator, or party promotor's responsibility to do the "checking up" on their hired acts. However......
In order to get my performer's insurance I had to join a clown association, and promise to follow all of thier rules. Because the clown group gets its insurance from the same place, we all get it fairly cheap. I also got a membership card, patch, a newsletter, and certificate (which make for jokes). Maybe these type organizations could be a model for an international fire organization. You pay to join, sign an agreement saying you will act accordingly (personally I like what Malcom has already come up with, just I think he should add that the organization is not responsible for anyone not behaving by the rules they agreed to behave by. Then of course comes the insurance for joining the organization. If a member has to collect on their policy, and the insurance company finds the performer at fault, that person is removed from the organization. Mainly because as a group who wants to pay higher insurance rates because someone messed up somewhere else in the world. On a personal note then I would stop getting a clown newsletter that I don't give a crap about, and my friends could stop calling me a clown (not that I really care, but the joke is getting old).
That way everyone starts out being trusted, and concidered safe. You would have to do something to lose that trust. The organization can also, at least, guarentee that all of it's members are insured. No one has to varify anything. It's kind of self varifying, and maintatining. No membership, no policy number.......no policy number, no listing, and no cool stuff that lets everyone know you are a fire performer.
Please don't flame me, I'm just trying to help. I would love to see an organization like this start and be one of the first truely international groups in the world.
Nothing good ever comes from hanging out with normal people.
BRONZE Member
freelance bum
286 posts
Location: Upstairs, Australia
freelance bum
286 posts
Location: Upstairs, Australia
Posted:
Malcolm, I like the new look and the aims seem more achievable by all and should be viewed favourably by event organisers.
I'd like to invite all the Pro performers who have gone to the trouble of achieving all the aims, to offer some advice on their experiences, particularly with regard to applying for public liability, and what happened if any claims have been made. Maybe on another thread.
Malcolm, I like the new look and the aims seem more achievable by all and should be viewed favourably by event organisers.
I'd like to invite all the Pro performers who have gone to the trouble of achieving all the aims, to offer some advice on their experiences, particularly with regard to applying for public liability, and what happened if any claims have been made. Maybe on another thread.
UYI OLDSKOOL
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