Forums > Help! > performance pricing
Login/Join to ParticipateSILVER Member
member
80 posts
Location: Derby UK
member
80 posts
Location: Derby UK
Posted:
The circus society at Derby uni that I am a member of has been approached to do a paid performance at a local bar it will be will be for several hours and involve probably between 3 and 7 people, if insurance can be obtained then we may use fire (poi ,staff, devil sticks and juggling, no fire breathing though) otherwise It’ll be LED and glow equipment, along with Stilt walking, Unicycle, Diablo. This will be the first time that we would have performed and received money for it by someone not involved with the Students Union (other times have been for other societies events and also with the council while raising money for RAG week) and we don’t really know what kind of money to ask for, if you have any ideas at how much we should be charging for fire or non fire that would be great, also where would be a good place to get an insurance quote from as this may be needed (we are in the UK).
Any help or info would be greatly appreciated
Thanks Ben
The circus society at Derby uni that I am a member of has been approached to do a paid performance at a local bar it will be will be for several hours and involve probably between 3 and 7 people, if insurance can be obtained then we may use fire (poi ,staff, devil sticks and juggling, no fire breathing though) otherwise It’ll be LED and glow equipment, along with Stilt walking, Unicycle, Diablo. This will be the first time that we would have performed and received money for it by someone not involved with the Students Union (other times have been for other societies events and also with the council while raising money for RAG week) and we don’t really know what kind of money to ask for, if you have any ideas at how much we should be charging for fire or non fire that would be great, also where would be a good place to get an insurance quote from as this may be needed (we are in the UK).
Any help or info would be greatly appreciated
Thanks Ben
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Rgds Drofkcah
BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
As this is your first paid gig id suggest around £50 per person plus expenses (parrafin, travel, wear and tear on equipment). If you are going to do any choreographed stuff then charge more, say £70. When you have been doing it a while longer and have a bit of a reputation you can charge more. I run the marketing for chimaera and our standard rates (for non-choreo stuff) is £120 per performer for the first hour £40 for every subsequent hour.
It sounds like alot at first but when you think of all the time and effort you have put into learning your prop then its pretty reasonable (try dividing how much your getting paid by the number of hours put in and work out your hourly rate, its not very much!)
As this is your first paid gig id suggest around £50 per person plus expenses (parrafin, travel, wear and tear on equipment). If you are going to do any choreographed stuff then charge more, say £70. When you have been doing it a while longer and have a bit of a reputation you can charge more. I run the marketing for chimaera and our standard rates (for non-choreo stuff) is £120 per performer for the first hour £40 for every subsequent hour.
It sounds like alot at first but when you think of all the time and effort you have put into learning your prop then its pretty reasonable (try dividing how much your getting paid by the number of hours put in and work out your hourly rate, its not very much!)
"Don't do it naked!"
SILVER Member
member
80 posts
Location: Derby UK
member
80 posts
Location: Derby UK
Posted:
well as we are only at Uni soc that has been running for just under 6 months and are only really amatures in this we settled on a minimum of £120 for the night with free food and drink through the night and some free advertising in the local paper, this more than covers what we are spending for additional insurance and equipment, we are just hoping that this will lead onto bigger and better things for the Soc.
and hopefully i'll have some pics of the night up by tomorrow
well as we are only at Uni soc that has been running for just under 6 months and are only really amatures in this we settled on a minimum of £120 for the night with free food and drink through the night and some free advertising in the local paper, this more than covers what we are spending for additional insurance and equipment, we are just hoping that this will lead onto bigger and better things for the Soc.
and hopefully i'll have some pics of the night up by tomorrow
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Rgds Drofkcah
BRONZE Member
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
Posted:
£120 for how many performers? - 1 I hope
Do NOT rely on doing work for basically free in the hopes that it will lead to 'bigger and better thinags'.
Invariably it leads to promotors thinking that they can get seomthing for nothing and offering this kind of S*~T money.
It also means that other professionals struggle, becuase 'amateurs' are taking the work for no money.
I am not implying that you are not good jugglers or even performers. Just that you are willing to do it for not much becuase you ahvent performed before.
Whilst you must weigh money, with experience as Sandy said. It seems you have experience of other performances at other events
DONT undersell yourselves and DONT undercut us Professional Performers trying to make a living out of this.
Believe me ive been there and teken S#*T money when I didnt realise what it was doing - hen when I met performer and realised I stopped - until now when I do this as my sole income - I wont take under £100 a gig - and thats the absolute low end!!
Anyway - Hope the gig goes well and it does lead to Bigger and Better things and better money. Remember its not just for you - it has a knock effect on the market
Peas
Rob
£120 for how many performers? - 1 I hope
Do NOT rely on doing work for basically free in the hopes that it will lead to 'bigger and better thinags'.
Invariably it leads to promotors thinking that they can get seomthing for nothing and offering this kind of S*~T money.
It also means that other professionals struggle, becuase 'amateurs' are taking the work for no money.
I am not implying that you are not good jugglers or even performers. Just that you are willing to do it for not much becuase you ahvent performed before.
Whilst you must weigh money, with experience as Sandy said. It seems you have experience of other performances at other events
DONT undersell yourselves and DONT undercut us Professional Performers trying to make a living out of this.
Believe me ive been there and teken S#*T money when I didnt realise what it was doing - hen when I met performer and realised I stopped - until now when I do this as my sole income - I wont take under £100 a gig - and thats the absolute low end!!
Anyway - Hope the gig goes well and it does lead to Bigger and Better things and better money. Remember its not just for you - it has a knock effect on the market
Peas
Rob
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Phirenix
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
allways charge what you are worth.
allways charge what you are worth.
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Guys, all this: "we are just hoping that this will lead onto bigger and better things for the Soc" is
...
Let me tell you: It wont! It's only bringing down the price (for other performers in the area, too). You will continue to do that in the hope of more gigs coming in (and they will at this rate). Then - by the time you "reached a certain level of professionality" and dare to charge the price you're actually worth - you will find that other (new) troupes in the area are trying to get gigs and undercut you.
You will have to continue 'working' at this level and (fire-)performance becomes a "penny stock". This you can only afford, because you get "subsidised" and (fire-)performance is not your main source of income.
Think one moment of those ppl (like FireFantasy in France and PhoenixFiredancers in Austria who are actually trying to make their (daily) living with this art. I tell you, Gerome has a hard time, as he is not subsidised by rich parents (unlucky bum he is, huh?).
So as long as you are 'killing the market' with low cost fireshows, you will neither earn my respect, nor applause (no matter how good you are)...
We have had the same discussion in Munich, where Netzhaut is whoring itself out to the city council even for free or 50 E's per gig... they can only do that because their performers are living on the dole, go to school or do it for those "5 minutes of fame" (and free advertisement on their website)... IMO it's 
least to say 
BTW (as a sidenote) there are plenty of threads about the topic already. Consider using the "search" button next time... [/rant]
Pardon my rant, but I see this happening for too many years now...
breathe, Tom, breathe 
Guys, all this: "we are just hoping that this will lead onto bigger and better things for the Soc" is
...Let me tell you: It wont! It's only bringing down the price (for other performers in the area, too). You will continue to do that in the hope of more gigs coming in (and they will at this rate). Then - by the time you "reached a certain level of professionality" and dare to charge the price you're actually worth - you will find that other (new) troupes in the area are trying to get gigs and undercut you.
You will have to continue 'working' at this level and (fire-)performance becomes a "penny stock". This you can only afford, because you get "subsidised" and (fire-)performance is not your main source of income.
Think one moment of those ppl (like FireFantasy in France and PhoenixFiredancers in Austria who are actually trying to make their (daily) living with this art. I tell you, Gerome has a hard time, as he is not subsidised by rich parents (unlucky bum he is, huh?).
So as long as you are 'killing the market' with low cost fireshows, you will neither earn my respect, nor applause (no matter how good you are)...
We have had the same discussion in Munich, where Netzhaut is whoring itself out to the city council even for free or 50 E's per gig... they can only do that because their performers are living on the dole, go to school or do it for those "5 minutes of fame" (and free advertisement on their website)... IMO it's least to say BTW (as a sidenote) there are plenty of threads about the topic already. Consider using the "search" button next time... [/rant]
Pardon my rant, but I see this happening for too many years now...
breathe, Tom, breathe the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
SILVER Member
Are you up for it??
349 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Are you up for it??
349 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
I would think charging less for non-fire would seem reasonable, after all this is considered a personal risk you guys are taking when you perform
At my course last year we did designing a business (yes my point will come)
You guessed it, I did mine on a fire performance business, I started off thinking about $200 for the whole night for 5 to 6 performers, then thought "hang on a minute', and I worked out what each performer would get as an hourly rate, and though "Holy!"
I revised everything I had done and ended up with $250 per hour per performer with an extra $80 per hour thereafter.
I had this based on the "business" having the equipment, providing fuel and had a $500 charge for a basic stage set up. Also taking into consideration how much the fire performance tools cost /are worth in the 1st place
Bear in mind this was all done for a course related assignment but it really got me thinking that it would be very easy to undercharge and think that it was reasonable money.
What you have to remember is that even if you have only been doing it for 6 months or so, most of the people who see it are still going to gaze at you in awe of what you are doing
Don't be afraid to charge what you are worth!
Oh, and I agree with FireTom and others about it bringing down the rates for all other performers too.
The other alternative, is if the bar doesn't like what you are proposing to charge, return to them with 'We'll have 20% of the bars profits for the night'
Chances are they will pay the 120 pounds per person happily
Good luck with it
EDIT: Please note how much the bars' takings will go up if you perform there. Example, they pay you $1000, they'll take in an extra $4000
I would think charging less for non-fire would seem reasonable, after all this is considered a personal risk you guys are taking when you perform
At my course last year we did designing a business (yes my point will come)
You guessed it, I did mine on a fire performance business, I started off thinking about $200 for the whole night for 5 to 6 performers, then thought "hang on a minute', and I worked out what each performer would get as an hourly rate, and though "Holy
!"I revised everything I had done and ended up with $250 per hour per performer with an extra $80 per hour thereafter.
I had this based on the "business" having the equipment, providing fuel and had a $500 charge for a basic stage set up. Also taking into consideration how much the fire performance tools cost /are worth in the 1st place
Bear in mind this was all done for a course related assignment but it really got me thinking that it would be very easy to undercharge and think that it was reasonable money.
What you have to remember is that even if you have only been doing it for 6 months or so, most of the people who see it are still going to gaze at you in awe of what you are doing
Don't be afraid to charge what you are worth!
Oh, and I agree with FireTom and others about it bringing down the rates for all other performers too.
The other alternative, is if the bar doesn't like what you are proposing to charge, return to them with 'We'll have 20% of the bars profits for the night'
Chances are they will pay the 120 pounds per person happily
Good luck with it
EDIT: Please note how much the bars' takings will go up if you perform there. Example, they pay you $1000, they'll take in an extra $4000
Are you up for it?;)
BRONZE Member
enthusiast
242 posts
Location: bournemouth/dorset/uk
enthusiast
242 posts
Location: bournemouth/dorset/uk
Posted:
F.L.A.M.E try and work on the basis of £250 per performer per day...or as close to that as we can get. Inform them thats they are buying performance slots and you can easily be somewhere else earning that money. Once your known as a £50 performer you will find it extremely! hard to charge more. Keep the prices high in your area and come down hard on new uninsured groups who try and rip the bottom out of the market by charging £20 or for free entry.....lastly get a costume!
F.L.A.M.E try and work on the basis of £250 per performer per day...or as close to that as we can get. Inform them thats they are buying performance slots and you can easily be somewhere else earning that money. Once your known as a £50 performer you will find it extremely! hard to charge more. Keep the prices high in your area and come down hard on new uninsured groups who try and rip the bottom out of the market by charging £20 or for free entry.....lastly get a costume!
BRONZE Member
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
Posted:
i charge £50 per hour for hula hooping (non fire)
anything else it goes from £150 up to £350/400 for fire. if its far away i will also charge for expences. it sounds like alot but when you considder insurance, toys, costumes, outfits,props those darn pesky risk assments etc it soon builds up. Plus i have to find a sitter for the kids.
it does pay off, sure you get a "how much" to start off with but if you have a good set up, can write a good contract of what you are offering so it is set out clearly not forgetting to add in time for breaks you should get it no problem.
my best gig to date... Spinning fire at a My Ruin gig.
(i do dicounts for charities, schools and communnity events through personal choice and always show the discount on the invoice so they know its at a discount rather than my full price)
i charge £50 per hour for hula hooping (non fire)
anything else it goes from £150 up to £350/400 for fire. if its far away i will also charge for expences. it sounds like alot but when you considder insurance, toys, costumes, outfits,props those darn pesky risk assments etc it soon builds up. Plus i have to find a sitter for the kids.
it does pay off, sure you get a "how much" to start off with but if you have a good set up, can write a good contract of what you are offering so it is set out clearly not forgetting to add in time for breaks you should get it no problem.
my best gig to date... Spinning fire at a My Ruin gig.
(i do dicounts for charities, schools and communnity events through personal choice and always show the discount on the invoice so they know its at a discount rather than my full price)
Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows
SILVER Member
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
veteran
1,237 posts
Location: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
ooo, any chance you could send me a contract example? I can whack it on gleneroo's hosting so anyone can grab it, firespinning/performance templates would be a great help for many I think.
And importantly, the more people out there doing it properly, the better things should get for all real performers, the inverse of performing for free/cheep messing them about.
ooo, any chance you could send me a contract example? I can whack it on gleneroo's hosting so anyone can grab it, firespinning/performance templates would be a great help for many I think.
And importantly, the more people out there doing it properly, the better things should get for all real performers, the inverse of performing for free/cheep messing them about.
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BRONZE Member
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
GREAT website and artwork, pretty girls and costumes.... what about you? 
BTW have you noticed that there are performers in your country who play for little to no money? You might run into them on one of the festivals - IF so, givem a BIG huck for me too *clears throat*
GREAT website and artwork, pretty girls and costumes....
what about you? BTW have you noticed that there are performers in your country who play for little to no money? You might run into them on one of the festivals - IF so, givem a BIG huck for me too *clears throat*
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
Posted:
FT - Did you not read my post which said the same thing as you further up the thread?
Yep its a constant problem - but to be fair ive been there - anout 6 years ago - so kinda understand. Its just a process of education hopefully - making people aware that they are making life hard for all us Pro's.
I'll still give 'em a hug for you though
Peas out
FT - Did you not read my post which said the same thing as you further up the thread?
Yep its a constant problem - but to be fair ive been there - anout 6 years ago - so kinda understand. Its just a process of education hopefully - making people aware that they are making life hard for all us Pro's.
I'll still give 'em a hug for you though
Peas out
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Phirenix
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
A "huck" is a rather strong "hug" and I forgot to put two things behind that post. One is [/cynical] and the other is.... oh no, I used " "
Because I do believe that everybody has to make his own mistakes and it's not up to me to cast judgement - as much as I'm prone to. So I stick to the "no respect and applause" part, but I would NEVER get hostile... 
A "huck" is a rather strong "hug"
and I forgot to put two things behind that post. One is [/cynical] and the other is.... oh no, I used " " Because I do believe that everybody has to make his own mistakes and it's not up to me to cast judgement - as much as I'm prone to. So I stick to the "no respect and applause" part, but I would NEVER get hostile...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
member
80 posts
Location: Derby UK
member
80 posts
Location: Derby UK
Posted:
Well unfortunatly as of your posts came after the event i was unable to use any of the advice (even if some of it did seem a bit harsh to me). A proper pricing structure will be something I'll be getting the society committee to work on when I see them at the next meeting. As I said in my first post we are very new to this, and up until this performance we had only do performances for other societies and for RAG week (almost £600 in two events, and working at a loss to the soc). We are also forging contacts with other circus type socs form other uni's and we will be able to find out more about the performance side of things from them as well as from here on HOP.
Well unfortunatly as of your posts came after the event i was unable to use any of the advice (even if some of it did seem a bit harsh to me). A proper pricing structure will be something I'll be getting the society committee to work on when I see them at the next meeting. As I said in my first post we are very new to this, and up until this performance we had only do performances for other societies and for RAG week (almost £600 in two events, and working at a loss to the soc). We are also forging contacts with other circus type socs form other uni's and we will be able to find out more about the performance side of things from them as well as from here on HOP.
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Rgds Drofkcah
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
As I said: no judgement. Also you don't need to justify yourself no offence meant...
Most(!) of us btdt I'm just too proud and rather bite the bullet (except for children and charity)...
Sorry for late replies, tho. But do you understand the angle some of us are coming from?
As I said: no judgement. Also you don't need to justify yourself
no offence meant...Most(!) of us btdt
I'm just too proud and rather bite the bullet (except for children and charity)...Sorry for late replies, tho.
But do you understand the angle some of us are coming from? the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
Posted:
I think thats a good idea to get in contact with the other societies. Form a kinda informal Union and spread the possiblities of performances at decent prices.
I have to say - if youre asking for advice - dont take the answers personaly. Either accept or reject.
Im giving you the answers as I see things from 6 years of professional performance.
If you dont like the answers dont ask the question
I think thats a good idea to get in contact with the other societies. Form a kinda informal Union and spread the possiblities of performances at decent prices.
I have to say - if youre asking for advice - dont take the answers personaly. Either accept or reject.
Im giving you the answers as I see things from 6 years of professional performance.
If you dont like the answers dont ask the question
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Phirenix
GOLD Member
member
173 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany
member
173 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posted:
I dont understand why you guys get worked up about beginner performers offering beginner prices for a show; when an organisor throws in my face that he/she can get so n so for a fraction of the price I simply reply, you get what you pay for. When someone is going to charge professional prices I hope that the show level would be equally professional. Personally seeing an overpriced crap fire show makes me much angrier than watching someone spin for free entrance and to finally get the experience of performing in front of other people.
And I would never recommend someone to charge more than what they really feel comfortable with. For someone who really has little to no experience performing, demanding a high price would just make the nervousness and consequent failure rate much higher.
I dont understand why you guys get worked up about beginner performers offering beginner prices for a show; when an organisor throws in my face that he/she can get so n so for a fraction of the price I simply reply, you get what you pay for. When someone is going to charge professional prices I hope that the show level would be equally professional. Personally seeing an overpriced crap fire show makes me much angrier than watching someone spin for free entrance and to finally get the experience of performing in front of other people.
And I would never recommend someone to charge more than what they really feel comfortable with. For someone who really has little to no experience performing, demanding a high price would just make the nervousness and consequent failure rate much higher.
'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'
BRONZE Member
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
Posted:
I dont think I got worked up (you obviously havent seen me 'worked up!'
I replied in the way I did becuase as more and more part time spinners decide to start performing, mainly for fun and subsequently for little money. This becomes the market norm and promotors dont want to pay decent fee's.
This is a REAL problem in the UK - and a reason why I dont work here much.
Just trying to pass on my experiences and opinion to people that asked for it.
entheogen - nice pix in the website by the way. Theres a few things I would suggest if your interested
I dont think I got worked up (you obviously havent seen me 'worked up!'
I replied in the way I did becuase as more and more part time spinners decide to start performing, mainly for fun and subsequently for little money. This becomes the market norm and promotors dont want to pay decent fee's.
This is a REAL problem in the UK - and a reason why I dont work here much.
Just trying to pass on my experiences and opinion to people that asked for it.
entheogen - nice pix in the website by the way. Theres a few things I would suggest if your interested
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Phirenix
SILVER Member
member
80 posts
Location: Derby UK
member
80 posts
Location: Derby UK
Posted:
well i was unable to use any of the advice due to thh lateness of the replys, and thus charged to low a price, and yes from now on i'll make sure with any more paid performances we get that we use the advice i now have.
well i was unable to use any of the advice due to thh lateness of the replys, and thus charged to low a price, and yes from now on i'll make sure with any more paid performances we get that we use the advice i now have.
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Rgds Drofkcah
GOLD Member
Member
140 posts
Location: middle of the outback, Australia
Member
140 posts
Location: middle of the outback, Australia
Posted:
Interesting discussion as I have been in the same position before. I'm not a professional but I've done a few performances in my town for little money, it was more the experience I was after. Also I never had to have an insurance as I was covered by the organisers which of course has to be taken into consideration.
Anyway, just to give you an idea: 10-15 min perfoming AUS$50-100 (which would be 20-40 UK pound).
Interesting discussion as I have been in the same position before. I'm not a professional but I've done a few performances in my town for little money, it was more the experience I was after. Also I never had to have an insurance as I was covered by the organisers which of course has to be taken into consideration.
Anyway, just to give you an idea: 10-15 min perfoming AUS$50-100 (which would be 20-40 UK pound).
hm, pinecones, my favourits!
BRONZE Member
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
Posted:
Well Sprocket
Youre an interesting nuance!!
If you are indeed in the middle of the outback, you can pretty much charge what you want - from both perspectives!!:
1 - Theres no one else able to do it, so you have a closed market
2 - Theres no one else able to do it, so youre not effecting any other performers by charging a relatively low fee
3 - In this instance you could well build a market by offering your fee's low. They may well not have seen before and in a msall isolated town word would get round.
The Insurance expence is important for sure, as is costumes, training time, amps, microphones, equipment, etc.., ect..., although to be honest - when workign alot these costs get swallowed anyhow
Hope it went well and you did get more work from it (did ya?)
Well Sprocket
Youre an interesting nuance!!
If you are indeed in the middle of the outback, you can pretty much charge what you want - from both perspectives!!:
1 - Theres no one else able to do it, so you have a closed market
2 - Theres no one else able to do it, so youre not effecting any other performers by charging a relatively low fee
3 - In this instance you could well build a market by offering your fee's low. They may well not have seen before and in a msall isolated town word would get round.
The Insurance expence is important for sure, as is costumes, training time, amps, microphones, equipment, etc.., ect..., although to be honest - when workign alot these costs get swallowed anyhow
Hope it went well and you did get more work from it (did ya?)
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Phirenix
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
If you're looking for that experience, play in the park - how 'bout that? And if you're an absolute beginner, why would you want to go for a paid gig in a nightclub, bar, restaurant, hotel, festival anyways? IMO enough accidents already happened and the number of noobs is extra proportional to the number of venues...
I guess you're just not getting the point that some ppl are trying to make, who have ambitions and the passion to live from "the art" itself...
Written by: entheogen
Personally seeing an overpriced crap fire show makes me much angrier than watching someone spin for free entrance and to finally get the experience of performing in front of other people.
If you're looking for that experience, play in the park - how 'bout that? And if you're an absolute beginner, why would you want to go for a paid gig in a nightclub, bar, restaurant, hotel, festival anyways? IMO enough accidents already happened and the number of noobs is extra proportional to the number of venues...
I guess you're just not getting the point that some ppl are trying to make, who have ambitions and the passion to live from "the art" itself...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
member
173 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany
member
173 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posted:
Sorry, there seems to be a bit of confusion as to what I actually meant by this....
Here in Berlin there are a LOT of performing artists, and many of them offer fire shows on the side, but very few of them actually put in the effort to make a good one. A lot of the performers here seem to be of the opinion that practicing a bit of poi for a week and learning the absolute most basic way to spin a staff is already more than enough to choreograph and charge for a 400 euro fire show per person, and this makes me angry. When I introduce myself as a fire performer to someone in my training hall who hasnt yet seen what I practice and how hard I practice, Im often looked down upon, because in the juggling world the general consensus is that someone who lives exclusively from fire shows is someone who from the technique level cant do sh*t, and this makes me angry.
My partner and I have put in a lot of time and effort to establish a high level fire show, which apparently, from the market as I see it, is quite abnormal. And this I really dont understand.
I assume after time the market will become bored of your standard 'simple' fire show and start more and more often searching for performers who go above and beyond. And when the show does stand out so much more from what the amateurs can do, I would then assume that beginners charging beginner prices should no longer be such a thorn in the foot, since qualitatively what I would consider a professional level fire show to be is worth more.
Sorry, there seems to be a bit of confusion as to what I actually meant by this....
Here in Berlin there are a LOT of performing artists, and many of them offer fire shows on the side, but very few of them actually put in the effort to make a good one. A lot of the performers here seem to be of the opinion that practicing a bit of poi for a week and learning the absolute most basic way to spin a staff is already more than enough to choreograph and charge for a 400 euro fire show per person, and this makes me angry. When I introduce myself as a fire performer to someone in my training hall who hasnt yet seen what I practice and how hard I practice, Im often looked down upon, because in the juggling world the general consensus is that someone who lives exclusively from fire shows is someone who from the technique level cant do sh*t, and this makes me angry.
My partner and I have put in a lot of time and effort to establish a high level fire show, which apparently, from the market as I see it, is quite abnormal. And this I really dont understand.
I assume after time the market will become bored of your standard 'simple' fire show and start more and more often searching for performers who go above and beyond. And when the show does stand out so much more from what the amateurs can do, I would then assume that beginners charging beginner prices should no longer be such a thorn in the foot, since qualitatively what I would consider a professional level fire show to be is worth more.
'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Hello beautiful
Having seen what you and your partner do, I could imagine how frustrating it would be for you to see clumsy amateurs demanding good money whilst simultaneously bringing down the reputation of fireshows in general. I have seen 100's of shows, and performers, from the best to beginners, and I know what is what. It will be a good day when bookers do too.
Hello beautiful
Having seen what you and your partner do, I could imagine how frustrating it would be for you to see clumsy amateurs demanding good money whilst simultaneously bringing down the reputation of fireshows in general. I have seen 100's of shows, and performers, from the best to beginners, and I know what is what. It will be a good day when bookers do too.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
GOLD Member
member
173 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany
member
173 posts
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posted:
Thanks for the words of encouragement!
I just feel that demanding that beginners just starting out to charge professional level prices is not only completely unrealisitc, but also absolutely silly. If someone wants to get a professional price, he/shes should then offer a correspondingly professional product, i.e. well though out choreography/ dance/ character development that makes the number stand out from what any amateur/ hobby player could offer.
I mean, just look around on this website at the great inspirational ideas to makes a fireshow unique and memorable! And putting the extra effort should correspondingly put you in a higher league. I mean, I dont think anyone who put months of work on choreography or spent 200+ $ on a costume'll be jumping up and down for an opportunity to play for fifty bucks or free drinks.
Cheaper, less experienced performers are simply an inevitable part of the friendly competition, which helps that the market doesn't stagnate. So I'd say learn to deal with it or get a computer job. No one said the life of a performing artist was easy.
Thanks for the words of encouragement!
I just feel that demanding that beginners just starting out to charge professional level prices is not only completely unrealisitc, but also absolutely silly. If someone wants to get a professional price, he/shes should then offer a correspondingly professional product, i.e. well though out choreography/ dance/ character development that makes the number stand out from what any amateur/ hobby player could offer.
I mean, just look around on this website at the great inspirational ideas to makes a fireshow unique and memorable! And putting the extra effort should correspondingly put you in a higher league. I mean, I dont think anyone who put months of work on choreography or spent 200+ $ on a costume'll be jumping up and down for an opportunity to play for fifty bucks or free drinks.
Cheaper, less experienced performers are simply an inevitable part of the friendly competition, which helps that the market doesn't stagnate. So I'd say learn to deal with it or get a computer job. No one said the life of a performing artist was easy.
'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
I agree with above statement. Fact of the matter is that there are no standards and the community is repulsing such standards to be set for a long time already.
We have both: good performers who are willing to perform for free and bad performers who are demanding moon prices - and everything in between. But I rather would like to see bad performers overcharging than good performers play for free drinks... how 'bout that?
One problem is that often the audience has no clue what "good performance" really means. As long as they have skin, sights, sound and movement most of them are satisfied.
And your personal taste is not representative for all and everybody. Do not forget that you are from the art yourself and have a different perception...
I agree with above statement. Fact of the matter is that there are no standards and the community is repulsing such standards to be set for a long time already.
We have both: good performers who are willing to perform for free and bad performers who are demanding moon prices - and everything in between. But I rather would like to see bad performers overcharging than good performers play for free drinks... how 'bout that?
One problem is that often the audience has no clue what "good performance" really means. As long as they have skin, sights, sound and movement most of them are satisfied.
And your personal taste is not representative for all and everybody. Do not forget that you are from the art yourself and have a different perception...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Posted:
yeah: always remember that 3beat weave, really fast is always a crowd pleaser
I still remember one time I saw firepoi, one guy was doing just that, people in the crowd were saying 'look he's got the vlue flame! you have to be really good to get the blue flame!'
yeah: always remember that 3beat weave, really fast is always a crowd pleaser
I still remember one time I saw firepoi, one guy was doing just that, people in the crowd were saying 'look he's got the vlue flame! you have to be really good to get the blue flame!'
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
BRONZE Member
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
Posted:
i always try and be as fare as i can, its a very hard thing to do and there are alot of things to considder when it comes to the pircing of what you can do/the performance.
i can see it from all sides here on the one side i do feel guilty for charging some one a 'decent' price as i only have 2-3 years of spinning behind me but draw in the 25+ years of dancing experiance and performing in many different tyes of thing but we had one incident in our town which made me decide to charge real prices. there were a couple who would spin fire for a club, non insured etc and would get paid in beer!!!? when it came to hiring other performers (eg Me as well as other performers for different things) they would expect to pay the exact same thing. quite regully i have lost gig's to people who get paid in drinks and funny arsey looks when i mention about actualy payment with the "the last people we hired did it for beer" comment thrown in. On the talent side of things i am far better than they were, and thats an odd statement coming from me and hated it that people like that ruined it for others to make a decent
I hate performing infront of other spinners but you always run the risk of performing infront of some.
i find it really hard when coming up with a price and it does depend on the actual gig its self. i am a solo performer too which makes it harder i think as its just down to you to keep the crowd interested.
i am not sure if that allade sense i am feeling rather poorly
i always try and be as fare as i can, its a very hard thing to do and there are alot of things to considder when it comes to the pircing of what you can do/the performance.
i can see it from all sides here on the one side i do feel guilty for charging some one a 'decent' price as i only have 2-3 years of spinning behind me but draw in the 25+ years of dancing experiance and performing in many different tyes of thing but we had one incident in our town which made me decide to charge real prices. there were a couple who would spin fire for a club, non insured etc and would get paid in beer!!!? when it came to hiring other performers (eg Me as well as other performers for different things) they would expect to pay the exact same thing. quite regully i have lost gig's to people who get paid in drinks and funny arsey looks when i mention about actualy payment with the "the last people we hired did it for beer" comment thrown in. On the talent side of things i am far better than they were, and thats an odd statement coming from me and hated it that people like that ruined it for others to make a decent
I hate performing infront of other spinners but you always run the risk of performing infront of some.
i find it really hard when coming up with a price and it does depend on the actual gig its self. i am a solo performer too which makes it harder i think as its just down to you to keep the crowd interested.
i am not sure if that allade sense i am feeling rather poorly
Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows
SILVER Member
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England
Posted:
You must play in substantially different parks to me.
For instance, I've never been to a park that had a sound system, stage or group of people expecting a show.
There's only so much experience you'll get from playing in a park.
Written by: FireTom
If you're looking for that experience, play in the park - how 'bout that?
You must play in substantially different parks to me.
For instance, I've never been to a park that had a sound system, stage or group of people expecting a show.
There's only so much experience you'll get from playing in a park.
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
BRONZE Member
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
Posted:
Goth Frogette I think you sumed it up well - cant get paid cuz people are getting paid in beer i.e. peanuts for the drunken monkeys
I also think entheogen makes some good points as did FireTom
Experience only comes from doing - so youre right also Bov....
Lets face it everyones 'right' in their own way. This discussion will hopefully let people see where professional peformers thought processes are in regards fee's and beyond
My thought processes personally are wandering towards dreamland, so i'll wish you all pleasant dreams.
Just a thought - lets discuss and think about others points of view and not diss or rubbish them
Peas out
R
Goth Frogette I think you sumed it up well - cant get paid cuz people are getting paid in beer i.e. peanuts for the drunken monkeys
I also think entheogen makes some good points as did FireTom
Experience only comes from doing - so youre right also Bov....
Lets face it everyones 'right' in their own way. This discussion will hopefully let people see where professional peformers thought processes are in regards fee's and beyond
My thought processes personally are wandering towards dreamland, so i'll wish you all pleasant dreams.
Just a thought - lets discuss and think about others points of view and not diss or rubbish them
Peas out
R
Feel the Flame
Phirenix
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