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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:So our class is beginning a course that will entail 18 hours of lecture, small group discussion, and patient presentation dealing with the subject of interpersonal violence and the role of the physician in identifying and managing it.

Today, we got a lecture on how to recognize wounds that are more likely to be due to child abuse than due to accidental injury. As up-in-arms as people get about Child Protective Services (Pele understands this), I saw some horrible things today. I saw children who will forever have horrible burns on their hands and feet because their parents dipped their hands in boiling water (and I'm talking infants here, folks). I saw horrible scars from belts and electric cords, fractured skulls, and infants who will be forever brain-damaged because their parents shook them.

Halfway through the lecture, I was seething. I wanted to taste the blood of those parents in my mouth, I was so furious.

How could anyone throw boiling water on a baby's crotch, disfiguring her for life? How could anyone hold their 6-year-old son's face to a space heater, leaving him with a grid-mark on his cheek forever? What has to be going on in the head of the father who whipped his 10-year-old son so hard with a leather belt that vertebrae were showing through the patient's back? What kind of monsters do we have in this world who would do these things to a child?

Does anyone here have any insight into what could make a human being do this to a child, no less his or her own child? Because I just want to pour boiling water on that mom's privates and see how she likes it. And yet, as much as I fantasize about that sort of justice, I know that I could never actually bring myself to do it in reality.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:that's brutal. I don't know what to say, other than when I hear stuff like this my faith is reaffirmed in myself and the people I choose to surround myself with.

We all have a dark side. Some are darker than others - I take comfort in knowing that even the darkest recesses of my mind couldn't conjure the concept of torturing an infant to that extent.

My mind is reeling - Mike, your post has caused a multitude of thoughts and mental trees to develop. Too many to even attempt to express here, for I will take over the thread and start some crazy discussions about life, balance, karma, anguish and survival of the fittest.

love n light

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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:I found a book in my school library with case studies on abuse cases like these and many that were worse.

A lot of the case's were babysitters in their teens dishing out the abuse. I remember one case where a 17 year old girl who was babysitting an infant did some really horrible things. Investigators couldn't find any mental disorders in the girl and any history of abuse or anything, she had a seemingly good family life etc etc...

Really disturbing stuff.


Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:avoiding this post as its a bit too close to home subject right now.


"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

Location: Mpls, MN, USA
Member Since: 29th Jan 2002
Total posts: 646
Posted:And there are people who believe if we could bring back the belt and ruler we'd have better children and a better society.

Fuzzy Dice.......................................


old hand
Location: under the fairie wheel
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 1184
Posted:its taken time but we are finaly relising that it is not only men who are the abusers

it is teen it is women it is many people

i have been on the resiving end of it from a former girlfriend it every time i heard the saying after being asked why did they stay coming back with the standard respons "i though .... would change" i walways said what a load of shit. and now i see why they say it because i did the same myself

it because we have a fear of being left alown and we feel with time things may gett beter

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, champagne in one hand, strawberries in the other, body thoroughly used up, and screaming "WOO-HOO What a ride!"


the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:There is no excuse, truly, at all, but if you want to understand it, get into the head of the person.....

Now, I think that patience is something that is dwindling these days as stress levels go up. The more stressed we are, the more likely we are to snap, even at small things. Now let's add a child into this mix. Infants cry, and cry and scream and wail, and it takes time and effort to figure out why, all the while this wears on a parent. Some people don't have that little switch in their head that tells them when to walk away, and where kids are involved it tends to flare up faster.
Kids (little ones, not infants) do things because they are curious, and they do not understand the dangers involved. Noah used to blow out the pilot light on our gas stove because he could see it through the crack between the stove top and bottom. If we weren't in the kitchen, the house would fill with gas. Not good. Kids become fixated on things. Look at the ball rolling down the hill across the street. Let's chase it. Not thinking that the car coming down the street is dangerous. I had to clean up my apartment so many times a day, while also working and going to school because Noah would "explore", and nothing is childproof, I have news.
There comes a point where the frustration levels break, and no one can push that level faster than a kid, especially, and here is the cruel twist, when it is your child, they know your buttons better than anyone else.
Now, I will admit, Noah has received a couple of spankings (for running out in front of a semi once, and playing with an electrical cord). He has been sent to bed, sat in time out, had things taken away, etc..... And let me tell you all, I am not an aggressive person but there have been times where I was soooooo angry at him that I could've really done damage, except that I dug my nails into my own hand, sent him to his room, I went to mine and that is where we stayed for at least an hour. PWB has also sent me away for being so angry at Noah.
No they don't know better always, but even when they do they will push limits and it is very vexing.

I understand the urge completely. I will never and have never understood following through on the actions.

Mike, with the infants was Post Pardem mentioned at all, as I know people are using that excuse in court now-a-days to get out of killing children.

Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Pele, we all have urges to kill. I've wanted to kill more people than I could count, but the difference between a human and an animal is that we humans have the ability to stop ourselves. You may have felt like hurting Noah, but you "dug your nails into your hands" and didn't let you. Big difference. That's the difference between a caring, loving mother and an abuser. Kinda scary how thin the line is, huh?

As for post-partum, that wasn't covered today, but I will bring it up if I think it's not covered. However, most post-partum events are different, since they are a usually an attempt to kill the infant, not to punish the infant or to take out anger on the infant.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:Pele I can understand that, I don't agree with it and I don't fully understand it but it makes sense.

Here are some examples out of that book I mentioned.

Age:eighteen months
Recent external injuries:Lower trunk and lower extremeties
Cause of death:Shock with thermal burns unattended
Presenting story:Placed baby bottom in boiling water, then fell and dropped baby in overturned water
Reason for injury:Baby soiled floor

Age:Eighteen months
Recent external injuries:Numerous bruised and abrasions head and trunk, laceration of lip.
Internal injuries:contustion, brain;subdural hemorrhage
Cause of death:Subdural hemorrhage
Presenting story:Fell from chair
Method of injury:Placed on gas burner, beat with stick and hands
Reason for injury:Wet pants

Those are the pages I happened to scan for the assignment and still had on my computer. They are maybe 5% of what was in the book.

Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:Eh I forgot to mention that I can understand mild cases of abuse but the examples I gave I in no way understand.

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Its a weird thing, I am trying to imagine what it is like to even be a parent, cos I ain't yet . But I am going to suggest something, and those here who are parents can feel free to jump up and down & say "no it isn't like that at all" except in stronger terms

I am guessing that as a parent it is a little hard to escape a sorta sense of ownership of your child (the whole "my child") thing. It creates conflict when they are older, and start to do stuff like having sex, or making career and education decisions. I would imagine it is hard for a lot of parents to release ownership of a kids life, seeing as when they were younger they controlled so much of it.

To extend the idea, an abusive parent probably has a real issue about "owning" their childs body, they do not see this little scamp as a separate individual ("my child, my business what I do"), kinda like people who mistreat their pets. Being a parent is about being granted an awesome amount of power over someone else, they are so reliant on you for everything. It must make it hard to begin making the separation of lives. But at the same time this awesome power does bring responsibility, it is not to be misused.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Trippie Hippie
Trippie Hippie

old hand
Location: Bewildered state of nothingnes...
Member Since: 18th May 2002
Total posts: 733
Posted:It's a fucked up world in which we live, it makes me sick and i often find myself in tears after hearing about this stuff, i feel quite tearful just reading this thread.

There was a case over here in britain which i'm sure was heard about all over the world, and that was James Buldger.
He was kidnapped from a shopping mall in Liverpool by two young boys (They were around 10ish) and they murdered him.
They threw bricks at him, hit him with iron bars, cut him and stabbed him with glass, gauged his eyes out, chopped off his man hood, then left him for dead.
When they were questioned by police they said they did it because they were BORED!!
In court they showed no remorse.

Now i ask you, what the hell could drive any one to that, let alone two young children????

Some people are fucked in the head, they like to play god, they think they have the right.
It makes me sick
Taking it easy

Last night i met some pixies and we danced around a stone.
N.E.W.B. Agent #012
"I Got Soul"
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[ 21. February 2003, 05:37: Message edited by: Trippy Hippy ]

Trippie Hippie- Monty Dons secret love child

Fly like a mouse, run like a pillow, be the small book case.

"Last night i met some pixies and we danced around a stone".

Because dressing up is fun.

back from the dead...sort of
Location: 4341'N 7938'W
Member Since: 23rd Feb 2002
Total posts: 884
Posted:I feel absolutely ill.

Location: Exeter
Member Since: 12th Nov 2002
Total posts: 97
Posted:My dad was a violent alcoholic who mentally and physically abused me and and my mum and sisters from about when I was 10 till when I moved out of home at 17.
At the time I did not understand what I had done wrong and to deserve to be treated the way I did and I utterly hated him.
He died about 5 years ago....
I understand now that he had a nervous breakdown and he did the things he did to us because he had been badly treated as a child and that he had mental problems that went untreated and that he was dying inside. My parents lost everything...my dad lost the plot and could not cope....but he never saw anyone to help him...
I would give anything to have him back today because I feel that when he was alive I hated him, but now he is dead I understand why he acted the way he did but he never knew...he never knew that I did love him...
Its sad
I am ok now I have had a hard time dealing with it though....


Location: la-la land
Member Since: 15th Feb 2002
Total posts: 2419
Posted:Oh man I can't handle this stuff...

I don't understand it -

I wrenches my heart to think that this goes on everyday.. even more sadly in that the authorities don't do a very good job at helping those who cannot help themselves..

They seem to hassle people that love their children - just coz some one said something to them - as someone on this board experienced recently.. but you also hear stories of incompatence, severe incompatance - when they just can't be bothered - a case that has highlighted this in the UK is the sad story of little Victoria Colimbe (sp).. she was defensless.. I cry for her sometimes - so unfair and let down by the very people who are paid to protect her..

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Location: London
Member Since: 14th Feb 2003
Total posts: 43
Posted:The BBC is doing a season on looking into Domestic Abuse at the moment and there was a very good documentary last night which included Victims of abuse, and Perpetrators of abuse. The issue of the perpetrators needing irrational control over their family members was highlighted and gave some interesting insight into this subject.

I am very glad Mike that you are learning about recognising abusive injuries, as it is a big issue in England at the moment regarding the Victoria Kimbe case, where despite having had many examinations by different members of hospitol staff, social workers and the police, nothing was done and she ended up being killed by her Aunt and her Aunt's boyfriend.

The thing that worries me about abusers is that they are often victims of abuse themselves (this is absolutely no excuse for them), and more often than not have serious mental health problems, yet go unnoticed/untreated themselves. I can't speak for other countries, but it is my feeling that in Britain that there is such a huge 'don't get involved attitude' that so much abuse which could actually be prevented goes unnoticed, or is just simply ignored.

The other thing is that by Law in Britain, if someone was to abuse, or kill someone elses children, they are sentenced according to their crime, whereas if someone does the same to their own children their sentence is automatically mitigated by the mental health plea. Firstly surely anyone who hurts or murders children have mental health problems, but secondly child abuse happens more frequently within families than outside them, yet these people have lesser sentences and can just keep on having more children whom they can torture. This strikes me as somewhere where the law is really letting down those it should be protecting.

Finally, those who are abused, or witness abuse within their family (i.e. the children of a battered wife or husband) often do not get enough help themselves to deal with their own anger. It is this internal rage that often creates an abuser and we are letting the cycle continue.

On a happy note, I am glad people are talking about this issue. The silence that has surrounded it for so many years is what prevents things being done. At the moment 66% of domestic violence cases in the UK go unreported, the more we publicise about, the more people suffering in it may gain the courage to speak out.

Take care y'all.

....so does it come with a hat?

Location: Exeter
Member Since: 12th Nov 2002
Total posts: 97
Posted:the sad story of little Victoria Colimbe (sp).. she was defensless.. I cry for her sometimes - so unfair and let down by the very people who are paid to protect her.. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Its tragic to think her parents sent her to England to give her a better life........

Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:One thing that really bothers me is the fact that apparently me and my siblings were abused by my mother. I was young enough that the only memory I have of it is spending easter in a foster home. Really the only thing I remember about that easter is the remote controlled vehicle that was shaped like a robot my mother had bought me and the electrical outlet which was set into the floor of the foster home (this absolutly fascinated me for some reason)

For quite some time when I was young in the years I can remember whenever my mother raised her hand (not in agression, but to turn off a light or a cat hair out of my hair or something of that nature) I would cringe like I thought she was going to hit me. I never knew why I did this and it seemed to really bother my mother to see me do this.

I have always had a wonderful relationship with my mother and I only really knew up untill a couple of years ago that she had abused us as kids. I always had a vague recollection in my mind that it happened and I wasn't suprised when I found out for sure what had happened. I found out we were only in the foster home for a very short time because my mother pleased the social services so much that she had improved herself that they let her have us back. She worked very very hard to get her kids back and she never touched us since.

Knowning that this happened does not change my opinnion (a very high one) of my mother in anyway. She recently found out herself that she and her brother were abused(they were born a year or two apart, she had several other siblings but they were born so far earlier that many of them had their own familys and all were moved so my mother
only lived with her brother and her parents)

My mother had blocked out all the memories, it was so bad that her oldest brother was trying to get social services to step and put them in a foster home. Back in the late 50's it took a lot of abuse for someone to think it was bad enough that social services were needed.

Now here is the part that bothers me. If my mother abused me because her mother abused her? Will I abuse my kids? what about my wife? I used to have an increadible problem with controlling my temper but I managed to control it by time I hit 7th grade. But now that I am 19 I am finding my anger less and less managable and although I don't have any urges to hurt people I am afraid someday I may. Really I am terrified to ever have kids or even a long term relationship because I think the cycle may draw me in. I know this is irrational and the fact that I acknowledge the possibility and understand it and can watch out for it probably shows that it is unlikely I will be abusive i can't help be afraid it will be out of my control.

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Astar, I think your experience of seeing how your mum worked to be a good parent, may give you the skills to be a brilliant parent.

Most of us take our parents for granted, until we are parents ourselves. Then we look at the example they set, and the lessons we abosrbed as a child. Your mum did something amazing, she re-assessed the lessons that had become ingrained in her in her childhood, and fought against them. She showed courage in admitting the problem, and strength in solving it.

Even if you do find yourself in a situation where you feel close to losing your temper (as I am sure all parents do), I think you will take her example and restrain that impulse.

Your late teens are an emotional time, you go through life changes heading towards leaving school and starting a career, deciding who you want to be. Plus you have the added factor of the strength of a young adult body (not crusty worn out old person body ). And the fact is that you are recognising you have a temper. Have you thought about talking to your mum? About how she dealt with the problem?

It sounds to me like you are following a pattern, but not the one you fear. You are following the pattern set by your mum of being strong enough to recognise the problem, and wise enough to do something about it. Much respect to you.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Location: WA
Member Since: 30th Dec 2002
Total posts: 36
Posted:What Rozi said gave me goosebumps, I agree entirely. Astar the fact the you recognise what is, and what has been, makes you a stronger person to fight it.

Alot of people who are abused and feel like you separate themselves, similarly to yourself. They are afraid of either being abusive to the people they love because of the cyclic nature of abuse. afriad they will be abused again (on the other hand this is sometimes a reason to go back to an abusive person, you learn that the pain and suffering is a kind of love, and that if they do that then they are showing their love, so being with someone that doesn't do that does not love you, this is probably most commonly found in victims of rape, specifically date rape).

knowing and understanding are the first steps to moving on. Being able to talk about it to the people you are closest to, and the girls you end up dating is important, and like evry relationship communication will be a very large factor for you.

You are a wonderful person, I know that from reading posts from you all over HOP.

love and light


Member Since: 22nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Lightning=MikeGinny:

... but the difference between a human and an animal is that we humans have the ability to stop ourselves.Kinda makes you wonder if we are truly as advanced as we like to think we are.How many species of animals abuse or kill their own offspring? Apes,which are theoretically our closest link to animals,don't do these kind of things to their young.

The stories that make my blood boil are this new thing wherein teenage girls are giving birth in secret and then killing the infant by putting it in a garbage can or throwing it in a river. What pisses me off most about all this is that there are so many people who would give their right leg to able to have children and then we've got @$$holes like these people who will do such heinous things.

Good thread but I don't want to get too into it because this subject just pisses me off to no end.
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dulce flames
Location: Oceanside, California USA
Member Since: 8th Mar 2002
Total posts: 234
Posted:This topic is something that I have been dealing with a lot recently. I can be classified as a social worker and have seen so many crazy situations in the past four months that I have been blown away by what happens in so many houses out there. Parents (who have usually had hard upbringings themselves) often find it very hard to break the cycle. I can't offer any kind of explanation really as to why someone would burn a baby or lash a child leaving scars and luckilly I havn't had to deal with such a horrible case. My position makes me a mandatory reporter to CPS and although the agency isn't perfect, I hope everyone respects their attempts. Someone has to be looking out for these kids who can so easily have all of their rights stripped out from under them. I hadn't read up on what happened in November, Pele, but I just back checked so I could have more details. It must have been extremely difficult having your family do such a thing. Luckily CPS was able to see that you truly are a good mother. That's what they're there for really. I hope your family comes around to see the same thing. I've had to make numerous reports to CPS and not once has a child been removed from their parents. However, and your comments about this can be proof Astar, most people can recover. At my company we provide counseling services, anger management classes, parenting classes and numerous other services that can make a huge difference to someone who might not have known any other ways to deal with their frustrations. As hard as it may be Mike, try to stay positive in that if this situation ever did come into your hands, you will recognize it. Some people become parents who really are just screwed up. Sad to say, there are a lot of incredibly unstable people out there who do not know how to deal with taking care of someone who needs them so much. It's very unfortunate, but know that you will be better at what you do by knowing all of this information and what to look for. Good luck!

Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Please recognize it mike. And please remember that there are other signs.... like majorly flinching when you raise your hand or move tworads someone.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Location: Edmonton
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2003
Total posts: 12
Posted:New to these forums and about to run the risk of offending someone...I am a mother of 2 I am also a survivor(hate that word...did I survive?) of years of every possible kind of abuse known as of yet. I too have felt the urge to do damage to my children (almost always of of fear...mothers know what I am talking about) however we choose our actions. No excuse can be made. My parents abused me or my parent was abused. I too fell into that with my own parents saying that if my father had not been abused he would never have abused us...BULLSHIT!!! I was abused and the love I feel for my children stops me from ever hurting them. I said for years that if my mother had had more help she would have been able to get out of it...CRAP!!! If she hadn't been so involved in herself she would have taken care of her children. Myself having removed my children and myslef from an abusive relationship the minute it looked like he was going to turn on them. I had no where to live and no money...but my children were safe. Let's stop saying these people need help and give them what they deserve...let them be helpless to stop the pain. Maybe we could kill them slowly. Maybe I need help...not very PLURRy I know but the only time the violence in me almost comes out is when I hear of people in a position of power using it to hurt people (anyone) they are in power over....hope this doesn't offend anyone or make anyone in that situation right now feel like I am knocking them for not leaving...I know how hard it is to leave. But we all have that line that, once crossed makes us get out. We just need to make that line alittle bit nearer to being human. Nobody deserves any abuse. If they did it wouldn't be called abuse.

When I die I want to come back as a glowstick