Forums > Social Discussion > The genetics of slavery...

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BurningByronmember
340 posts
Location: Australia


Posted:
I have taken my post from this [Old link] and started a new topic as I felt it needed a home of its own...

Written by:

"The reason there are so many black players in the NFL and NBA is because when we went to get the slaves from Africa, we picked the biggest and strongest ones, and most black americans are descended from slaves."




That is quite a bold statement to make indeed!
I wonder if any studies have been done to see if there is any truth in his words.

From a purely scientific perspective (with my reasonable knowledge in genetics and evolution) selection for strength, endurance, resilience to extreme conditions and overall toughness would have occured.
This would be the case for 3 possible reasons:
1. The scum that kidnapped the Africans new they would get a better price for fitter looking individuals.
2. The horrendous conditions that the Africans had to endure during the trip across to America would have killed any individuals that were not very strong, fit and healthy.
3. I'm sure the Americans would have simply killed any Africans they could not sell rather then buy them food.

To then link the selection pressures placed on these Africans to their impressive sporting achievements of today involves too many assumptions for me to bother going through. It all comes down to assumptions........... and it is these assumptions where holes could be shot in his theory and where it could be tested.

I am interested to hear which part of this man's statement you guys find offensive??

I get the impression this guy is the type of person that doesnt think before he speaks, if he posed this theory in a more diplomatic manner maybe people would pick up on the interesting scientific idea he put forward instead of them going with the group mentality and crucifying him as arrogant, racist and stupid....

(Incidently I do not even consider "race" an issue here, in fact I dont even consider "race" an issue in MY life at all. I dont see myself as one race or another, I am a human being, I dont see why any other physical characteristic of myself should matter to me. If it matters to anyone else, that's their problem, all I can be is me!) Children dont see race....

I find genetics and evolution very interesting, I would love to hear everyone elses ideas on this!!!!

Oh and lastly before I go back to studying for my biochem exam...
Has anyone heard of the concious gene theory based on the synchronisation of menstrual cycles of female groups in the animal kingdom???

.

HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
I think u may have missed my point Lightning. I was suggesting that the environment has a huge impact on the expression of our genetic makeup. Ok with twins, spot the difference if say one smokes for 40 years the other doesn’t.

Genetically we are all very similar, and we are reputed to share over 98% of our genes with mammals and perhaps as much as 80% with plants (I’m guessing here). So nutrition etc. have a huge impact on how develop.

There is no such thing as race and you cannot scientifically distinguish a race of people genetically from a different race of people



smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
We share about 98% of our genes with chimps. smile

Makes you wonder about how much 2% is worth. biggrin

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
Written by: spritie


I went to college and then grad. school with a very similar sounding set of identical twins as well. They majored in the same things in college, then got their PhD from the same place in the same thing. They are both now doing some form of BioStatistics, although working for two different state funded schools. So I'll believe it easily.




but in both this case and the one sited by lighteming, we have not in anyway separated the genetic background from the enviromental one - unless you are saying they were raised separtly in totally different economic groups...

In these two cases you can't prove anything other than twins raised together tend to do the same thing. So do best friends who don't happen to share the same genes, and siblings who only share 50%.

point is, the twins come from the exact same enviroment - probably even the same bedroom - so you can't say wether or not anything they do is a result of one thing or the other because they share both.

Now I have seen other studies of identivcal twins who do have frightening similarities despite having been split up at birth and raised in separate families, but there are also similar cases where identical twins are nothing alike given the same situation. I have not seen or heard of (doesn't mean it doesn't exist though) of anyone doing a study to see if there is any statistical significance tro the occurences of lifestyle similarities between estranged twins, and until I do, I am a sceptic.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


FabergGOLD Member
veteran
1,459 posts
Location: Dublin, Ireland


Posted:
kinda offtopic but sort of relevant to the point vanize just made.

my father and his only sister were separated when he was 6 and she was 4. after years of searching (approximately 50 years!) they found each other again and i got to meet my aunt for the 1st time quite recently.

despite being raised in different countries by different families, they have strikingly similar characters, personalities & interests. though some of the stuff is just downright wierd!

they both have 1 daughter and 2 sons

my dad's children are called Lisa (me) Ian & Barry

his sister's are called Theresa, Dean & Gary

now is that spooky or just mere coincidence.....?? wow

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
if they were identical twins, they would say it is proof that genetics are the cause, though it could just as likely be coincidence. If they were not related at all, then it would just be coincidence. with the situation as is - who knows - they did spend some very formative early years together - arguing a tad for enviroment, but then they also share 50% of their genetics...

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Very true Lightning.

I think a scientist would look at the 2% and wonder at the possibilities. Where as I'm amazed that we have so much in common with each other, and with other life forms like say trees. Now all we need is Mulder and Scully to dig up a few Ailians.

This should be right up your allele.

Q. How do you tell the difference b/t male and female chromosomes?



A. Pull down their genes and have a look.

wink wink wink

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


SterlingspiderBRONZE Member
Senator by day, Sith Lord by night.
128 posts
Location: Suffolk, New York, USA


Posted:
*gives up and mentally dredges out all that college psychology and neuropsychology*

Sorry this is gonna be a bit long.

.

Hokee, as far as how much of "us" is genetics and how much is environment the concrete, bottom line, absolute answer is...it depends.

.

When you are talking about genetics it is better to talk about genetic /loading/ then genetic causation. Yes there have been increadibly freakishly hugely extensive studies based on twins. Twins who grew up together, twins who grew up apart, twins whose birth parents were alcoholics but whose adoptive parents were not... the list goes on and as a psych major they make you read /all/ of them. Because of the inherent environmental bias of the twin studies that were done on twins growing up in the same environment the vast majority have been repeated for seperated twins or have been slated to. If in doubt always demand sources. Anyone who wont give them is talking out their ass.

.

So far as anyone has been able to test (psychologically, bio is not my forte) the strongest genetic loading seems to happen with intellegence. Genetics accounts for 50% of the varience in intellegence. But all the genetic loading for genius-hood doesnt do didley when a child gets severe carbon monoxide poisoning at 2 yrs old. The most clearly genetically linked mental illnesses are anxiety disorders, mood disorders, and schizophrenia. For these genetics only accounts for about 20-30% of the varience (if I remember correctly).

.

All genetics can do is create the /possibility/ for the expression of some trait. The actual expression of said trait is completely at the whim of the environment the split second after that egg and sperm do their thing.

.

One case in point. In America schizophrenia is /far/ more common in economically depressed areas then in rich areas, due to this African Americans and Hispanics are more prone to develop schizophrenia and it might look on casual glance at the numbers like they are genetically mroe likely to develop schizophrenia. However in reality, when you control for economic status, all races are equally likely to develop schizophrenia. On one end of the spectrum rich caucasians are just as likely as rich African Americans to get it because all things being equal the genetic possibility for the races is the same. However when you add poverty, bad nutrition, and bad living conditions into the mix things start looking a little different.

.

On the other end of the spectrum is alcoholism. Due to somthing called the Asian Flush effect which afflicts a large percentage of Asians and makes drinking fairly unpleasent genetic Asians are unlikely to become alcoholics comparitively, regardless of other demographic factors. However most other races show a strong socioeconomic effect on levels of alcoholism.

.

EDIT: Eep, that was jut too long, edited to stick the other part of it (on linked menstruation) in a seperate post.

*

"If the human brain were simple enough for us to understand, we would be too simple to understand it"
-Emerson M Pugh


SterlingspiderBRONZE Member
Senator by day, Sith Lord by night.
128 posts
Location: Suffolk, New York, USA


Posted:
One theory I had read about the linked menstrul cycles is that the mechanism is pheremones.

.

The first thing to remember is that for the most part females of the species do not much need to compete over males. Because for males "sex is cheap" it doesnt really matter which or how many females one mates with. Even in pair bonding species it is pretty rare in nature that the female needs to woo the male.

.

As far as the linked timing of menstruation (and thus ovulation and pregnancy) I actually asked one of my profs about this. The theory goes that animals in physically compromised condition are better off being in groups. In herd animals it is not the single pregnant animal that gets hit by the predator, but the /weakest/ of the pregnant animals (likewise once the young are born). If you have one baby animal at a time thats the easy target for predators and 30 may be born over the course of a year but 25 of those will be picked off. If you have 30 at once odds are most of them will live through a predator attack and thats 25 babies that make it the whole year. It's really a case of "I don't have to outrun that lion, I just have to outrun you".

.

This translates beautifully to humans as human tribes are far more likely to help those out of the direct family group. All the mothers in a tribe generally work to keep the children of a tribe healthy and a tribe will adjust more to the rhythms of raising 6 children at once then it will to one. You not only ensure survival of the fittest, but the mostly fit have a better chance too. Generally without modern medicine children in ill health didn't have much of a chance anyway so nature took care of the really unfit and the OK babies dont get eaten by lions either.

.

You'll note that even nowadays there tend to be pregnancies in waves. Suddenly all the young women in an office who are not-not trying become pregnant within a couple of months (hell, 4 of /my/ friends have gotten pregnant within the last 2 months! It's an epidemic!).

.

Some really good (and surprisingly readable) books on this subject are Sperm Wars by Robin Baker, and The Mating Mind by Geoffrey Baker.

*

"If the human brain were simple enough for us to understand, we would be too simple to understand it"
-Emerson M Pugh


PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
LOL! nice work Sterling Spider. Thanks for pulling out that stuff smile

Josh

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


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