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BigDav
BigDav

member
Location: Derry, N. Ireland
Member Since: 20th Jul 2003
Total posts: 175
Posted:Well Ill tell you a little story and I want to hear what you think of this.

Myself and Ann (my fiance) decided we would take a little day trip to Portrush on the train on Sunday. We had a great day until we arrived back at the train station to go home. There was a mother and her 4-5 year old son on the platform. The kid was a little terror running around and kicking everything and stuff. He jumped down onto the train track and was running around on that too and his mother was just watching him.

The "Big Fat Controller" came over and demanded that the mother control her child as he will be injured if he does not get off the track. She started screaming at the child "John, get the F*CK off that train track." The kid just looked at her and ran off up the track. By this stage the barriers started to come down on the road beside the train station which meant that the train was coming. The Big fat controller then jumped down onto the tracks and ran over and grabbed the kid and lifted him up onto the platform and he climbed back up too. Within 30 seconds the train came speeding into the station.

Well the woman didnt say sorry or thanks or anything to the guy who saved her childs life. She just pulled out a cigarette and started to smoke.

The kid continued to run around until he tripped on the stairs and fell down 2 stairs and bumped his head. He started to cry, well scream! Now the mother shouted at him to shut up and stop crying. He did not cut himself put it was a bad bump on the head so the mother runs over to him raises her hand and shouts "I'LL GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO CRY ABOUT!" and slaps him really hard in the face.

Obviously the kid screams even louder and the mother starts repeatidly (typo?) slapping his backside and screaming "STOP F*CKING CRYING"

I thought this was awful and I had a full scale discussion with Ann on the train on the way home.

I do believe in slapping your kids - but only in extreme circumstances. I wouldnt slap them unless they really deserve it - like playing with fire (ok bad example LOL)

How can you possibly make a child stop crying by slapping them?

And would you slap your kids? If so - how far would u let them go before you lifted your hand?


Be Good, and if you DONT be Good, Buy a Pram!

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Children learn by exploring and interacting with their world and by copying other humans. If you force them to learn through other means then you're limiting their natural learning processes. Learning and behavioral patterns established through violence and intimidation is a negative process.My question has to be - is it better to let them reach up and grab at the hot pans on the hob so they learn their lesson 'naturally', or to slap their hand gently and tell them it'll hurt a helluva lot more if they do grab the pans?

I don't think anyone here would advocate smashing a child around the face for such a transgression - but slapping in that form and use?

that's part of the problem talking about this i think - people say slap, others hear beat - depends on your own experiences. some see talking and explaining to the kids as a solution, others see that as a recipe for a life of guilt, it's all down to what you yourself experienced. I got a lot of the guilt... it's not nice. The slaps I did get taught me Much faster and no lasting guilt! just the knowledge that someone, or the law etc, would make me pay for stepping over the line. i'd rather a slap and telling off than a school or parent calling the cops :S


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Well said Dom, thanks.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:frostypaw - Slapping in that form and use is still wrong, it's still violence and the wrong way to teach people. Do you not see any other options than slapping their hand down, letting them get burnt or making them feel burdened by guilty? There is another way.

I think we often mistake children for idiots


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:children are not idiots - they just have very little to reference their experiences against.

take the reaching for the pan example how do you explain to child that has never been burnt why it is such a bad thing?
if the child has never experienced pain more intense then say a grazed knee, how can you be sure that your warning of great pain will be heeded by a mind so young?

my worry is that a mind that is both unused to balanced reasoning and has no good points of reference on a subject will be very hard to completely convince - children with their curiosity and inqusitiveness may well (naively) reason that from their own experiences pain isn't as bad as they've been told and hence try something again later.

i believe physical punishment is an invaluable as a last choice deterrent ie. 'you've been told not to do that and why three times now, next time you get a smack on the bottom'.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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woodnymph
woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk
Member Since: 14th Sep 2003
Total posts: 313
Posted:i'm definetely against any form of violence against children.that poor kid was trying to get attention,as kids do.i smacked my kids once or twice, felt utterly crap and the next day i noticed my kids were angry and prone to violence themselves.smacking kids is the lazy way of dealing with a difficult situation,no brainwork involved...

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Well put despite the lack of capitolization woodnymph.

I gotta disagree cole (perhaps the only person on here that I feel comfortable disagreeing with by name)

I think there are other, more effective ways to control children. I obviously learned not to touch a hot pan, not to stick my fingers in the electrical outlets, not to step in front of trains without someone having to slap me.

CLEARLY it's possible to have a child become a well adjusted adult who has been smacked as punishment. There have been millions.

CLEARLY it's possible to have a child become a well adjusted adult who has NOT been smacked as punishment. There have been millions.

So it seems to me to come down to whether or not the adult feels like smacking them or not. I simply can't believe that I, as a baby, was more likely to be burned by a hot pan or hit by a train because I was not smacked.

My mom did her job. Didn't leave me in the kitchen alone with hot frying pans. She didn't let me run on railroad tracks as a baby. If I ran towards the street, she scooped me up and carried me away. I'm sure she said 'no'. And, because she was 5 times my size when I was 3, she was able to keep me away from the street without resorting to kicking my ass.

I'll ask my mom the next time I talk to her, but I get the feeling that 'not smacking me' wasn't the hardest part of raising me, nor do I feel that she would have been more sucessful by smacking me.

Violence begets violence. At least let the kid get to school before he has to deal with it.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Ali-bird
Ali-bird

member
Location: London
Member Since: 19th Jul 2002
Total posts: 102
Posted:I probably would smack my kids if I had any, albeit as a last resort as mentioned previously. However, I'm concerned that my temper would at times get the better of me.

This is one of the myriad reasons I never intend on having any kids. I'd be crap at it.


Why is it that everthing which is fun is illegal, immoral, or fattening?

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telic
I don't want a title.

Member Since: 26th Jun 2003
Total posts: 940
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Dm:
I think we often mistake children for idiots I could hug you for this. I think I shall, if we ever meet.

Children are not stupid. Cole, you're right, they lack experience and reference points - but they are still capable of reason. You can tell them that their flesh will sizzle like bacon when it touches hot metal, and they'll get the idea real fast. Explain that we like skin and perhaps it's best not to waste it.

I don't have children, but my youngest brother is 14 years younger than me (and grew up with functionally 4 parents, the poor kid). I spoke to him like an adult from the day he was born, and he's never stopped thanking me for doing so. He listens to logic and argues back rationally. Sometimes he wins. (Example: Mom says, "You can't have that drink in the living room. Take it to the kitchen now." The boy (age 6 or 7) replies, "But you have your drink in the living room, and Martin Luther King said that all people are created equal, so I should be able to have my drink here, too." Mom gives up and the boy wins. He's so cute.)

If a healthy child is incapable of being spoken to and reasoned with, then that child has not been raised properly up until that point and there are other problems.


E pluribus unum, baby.

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caniffis
member
Location: the world at large (mainly UK)
Member Since: 27th Jun 2002
Total posts: 60
Posted:what is intresting here from what i can see(please yell at me if i am wrong) is that alot of people on this thread are women. now i wonder if that is the differece bettween some of the comments?

i am a male and grew up being very naughty and in a very different way to the way my sister and her friends did. I know from going to an all boys boarding school from the age of nine that boys will normally test every boundry to breaking in most every way possible. if we are told not to do something we normally ask why, then we move on from that and question around the reason why to see if there is another angle. in the end boys normally have to just see if they can get around it anyway.
I don't know much about girls, but i think that as a group you grow up in a slightly different way. normally more respectful to the adults and not as challenging to the world around you in such a phisical way, excepting advice more easily than us boys do. please i am being genralistic here.

what seems to be coming out is the veiw that what i did growing up will work with all children. this i know is not true. it all depends on the child and the way the child is naturaly, and this depends on both chemical and life happenings to the child.

maybe we should look at this from the point of view of not what we see or have experianced but of with the view to look at every option without predudice and see if it is needed in the case we find ourselves in.

to boldly state yes i will smack my kids or never would i hit my kids maybe a bit of a closed minded way of looking at things. maybe we wont have to ever use that threat because we find other ways! maybe nothing else will work but the use of a smack on the hand or backside after everything else has failed is the only solution!

don't discount something, don't say never because you mayfind the universe has a horrible way of making never come and bit you on the arse.


What you don't know won't hurt you? well i intend to get to know as much as possible so that i can make sure no one else has to so they carn't get hurt.

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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:My basic philosphy to raising kids is that everything should be done for clearly stated and easy to understand reasons, maybe not all the reasons can be revealed, but I really think if you don't want your kids to grow up to be idiots who can't think for themselves you need to explain things. Obviously kids don't have the same emotional copeing skills adults do so you need to be careful.

Basicly if you discipline your kids out of emotion your just teaching your kids to be dumb emotional thinkers (don't get me wrong, emotional thinking has it's place, but if it dominates your style of reasoning then your going to get in trouble)

Also in this situation, my mom would have taught me how to watch for trains, when it isn't safe to play on train tracks (like if it's an area where trains move fast and there is poor visibility and she would have supervised me playing on the train tracks. Instead of haphazardly not careing.

I think the main problem with people raising kids is how they completly close their mind to any ideas that are foreign to what they have been taught.


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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:and as far as the boy girl thing I don't believe in it. By even talking about it your makeing it happen. The only diffrence between men and women are some minor physical diffrences mostly related to reproduction. Sure, there is some sketchy evidence about brain diffrences but putting to much emphasis on the brain dictating behaviour is a freaking joke. People grow up depending on how they are taught. By their parents and by their community. Even if they have a mental illness or something out of the ordinary, they can easily deal with it if they have a good upbringing. Also it's never to late to compensate for faults in your upbringing, I definatly had some ****ed up shit happen in my upbringing but it doesn't control who I am. Also, I think there really is very few true idiots. Just people who somehow get labled as idiots because society is stupid, and inorder to be accepted they continue to be idiots because it's the only thing that they know works. It's funny how when you treat people who are supposedly unable to learn as people how fast they actually do learn.

Also, I definatly have hope for the future. People like Dr. Phill blasting common sense psychology over the air waves has to have a positive impact.


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Magnus
member
Location: Bath, UK
Member Since: 5th Sep 2002
Total posts: 279
Posted:the woman made the kid behave like that in the first place by slapping him like that on previous occasions.

parents slap their kids when they don't know any better, or are frustrated (the parents, that is, not the kids).


Magnus... pay it forward

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Gnor
Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth
Member Since: 31st Mar 2003
Total posts: 5814
Posted:My 9 year old will say "Mum just smack me and quit with the lecture".

My smacking is a loss of my control more than an an effective disipline method, which is not a good rolemodel. He gets busted for hitting kids at school when they pay out, but his Mum can belt him without any recourse. Hypocritical world.

He gave me a lecture on respect and child rights the other night that was an eyeopener. Interesting and often very articulate child who can drive me to the edges of sanity.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:i have to admit i'm shocked at the number of people in this thread who say that they would spank their children. I think that everyone, of course, has a right to bring their children up as they wish, and i agree that the odd smack isn't going to scar someone for life, but i just am of the opinion that you should NEVER hit anyone ever.

By hitting someone surely you are giving the message that either you think they are too stupid to reason with, not worth reasoning with or that hitting people is a general ok thing to do.

I was never ever hit, shouted at or anything as a child and i turned out ok - it's just not a neccessary thing. By not hitting your kids you are showing them that you love them, just not the things they are doing. They need to learn WHY it is wrong in order to stop, not just associate it with pain.

Also, most questions of right and wrong aren't black and white either - in some cases it is right to walk on a train track, like in an emergency - you can't just go around hitting everyone who walks on the track, but if you don't how's your kid going to feel that you hit them for it but not someone else?


Marf. XxX


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Gnor
Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth
Member Since: 31st Mar 2003
Total posts: 5814
Posted:Thats one thing that is hard to fathom. Politeness to strangers but rudeness and violence to family.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:I have often been in the position where I have asked my son not to do something which would hurt someone and explained why he must not do it. He repeats the action and I repeat my request and my explanation.

If it means a gentle tap on the hand will prevent someone's eye being taken out by an airborne toy, I will give him that tap and no more. It doesn't hurt as much as it makes him attentive.

But I feel there is a very clear difference between that and punishing a child with a blow, which from what I've seen is usually either ineffective or mentally harmful, or, as in my case, both. And what the hell is smacking kids on their behinds all about? To me it is as invasive as smacking on the genitals.

[ 05. November 2003, 06:11: Message edited by: )spanner( ]


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Laytin
member
Location: bottom left of the US
Member Since: 3rd Nov 2003
Total posts: 111
Posted:I was spanked, and when I deserved it got a belt on the ole tush but it wasnt anything major. I deserved what I got but I never got anything more. Frankly after a while my parents didnt spank or ground me any more, they found new more torturious ways of punishing me

To me a worse punishment is embarrasment in front of your friends.


What the lady in the first post did was wrong. She still has alot to learn about parenting, not that I know everything


We must be cautious though, it is easy to look at something from the outside and say what we would do differntly. The hard part is doing the right thing when you are in the moment.


Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:

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