Forums > Social Chat > Is it bad if you are not patriotic????
Login/Join to Participateveteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
My rant of the month...
Although American by birth and by passport. I dont really know the place... Raised in Puerto Rico, moved to london five years ago... I also speak three languages which gives me a different perspective, if you are multi-lingual you understand why I say that...
Parents work for old uncle sam; I have worked for uncle sam! My father is ex-military and yes he did serve in a war: vietnam...
Yet I have no 'patriotic' feelings, besides having the belief that not only are Americans not free but neither is anyone else as long as some guy in a suit determines what I can and cant do, particularly with my own contiousness!!
A guy in a suit who also decides who my country will be 'friends' with, which country we will sanction and which one we will bomb/abuse!!!
I believe I was brain washed from birth mainly due to the workings of the country I was born in!
By who? Well to mention a few...
-My parents, who think Bush is smart! Who have also been brain washed according to my theory...
-Television: Did anyone notice all the pro-america, pro-military, pro-war movies on american TV right after Sept. 11th??? I mean dont you think the media affects you?
and finally...
-my primary school, much like many schools in America (it was run by Americans) where I had to sing the US anthem every morning AND afternoon, as well as hold my hand over my heart whilst saying the pledge of aliegance AND if that isnt enough I also had to sing 'America the beautiful'...
'freedom and liberty' ... yeah for the ignorant!
Now before all you americans go bashing on me, this is MY opinion. I am not saying I am right I am just expressing MY personal beliefs. I also lost people on sept 11th; I cried too! Not for the country, for the innocent lives taken!
So to get back to my point... or actually lack of
Am I a traitor if I dont believe in this whole 'patiotic' deal?
Does that make me bad, stupid, ignorant, or anything else?
Do other Americans dislike people like me?
Is it worse if I say that I would trade my passport for one of the EU, where I ultimately want to live?
Does anyone understand what it feels like to NOT have a country? To be a child of the world!
When I go to america I am obviously british and here I am obviously an american!
What to do what to do...
Will I ever get away from these stupid lables these pressumed states of mind?
WHY CAN'T PEOPLE JUST BE????? Is it so hard to just BE regardless of your place of birth?
I will keep searching for MY truth, not that which is attached to any particular country or belief... I just hope I am not judged for being who I am instead of who I am told to be!!!
Much love to all.. Drome
Dont worry I dont loose sleep over this
[ 10 July 2002, 10:38: Message edited by: dromepixie ]
My rant of the month...
Although American by birth and by passport. I dont really know the place... Raised in Puerto Rico, moved to london five years ago... I also speak three languages which gives me a different perspective, if you are multi-lingual you understand why I say that...
Parents work for old uncle sam; I have worked for uncle sam! My father is ex-military and yes he did serve in a war: vietnam...
Yet I have no 'patriotic' feelings, besides having the belief that not only are Americans not free but neither is anyone else as long as some guy in a suit determines what I can and cant do, particularly with my own contiousness!!
A guy in a suit who also decides who my country will be 'friends' with, which country we will sanction and which one we will bomb/abuse!!!
I believe I was brain washed from birth mainly due to the workings of the country I was born in!
By who? Well to mention a few...
-My parents, who think Bush is smart! Who have also been brain washed according to my theory...
-Television: Did anyone notice all the pro-america, pro-military, pro-war movies on american TV right after Sept. 11th??? I mean dont you think the media affects you?
and finally...
-my primary school, much like many schools in America (it was run by Americans) where I had to sing the US anthem every morning AND afternoon, as well as hold my hand over my heart whilst saying the pledge of aliegance AND if that isnt enough I also had to sing 'America the beautiful'...
'freedom and liberty' ... yeah for the ignorant!
Now before all you americans go bashing on me, this is MY opinion. I am not saying I am right I am just expressing MY personal beliefs. I also lost people on sept 11th; I cried too! Not for the country, for the innocent lives taken!
So to get back to my point... or actually lack of
Am I a traitor if I dont believe in this whole 'patiotic' deal?
Does that make me bad, stupid, ignorant, or anything else?
Do other Americans dislike people like me?
Is it worse if I say that I would trade my passport for one of the EU, where I ultimately want to live?
Does anyone understand what it feels like to NOT have a country? To be a child of the world!
When I go to america I am obviously british and here I am obviously an american!
What to do what to do...
Will I ever get away from these stupid lables these pressumed states of mind?
WHY CAN'T PEOPLE JUST BE????? Is it so hard to just BE regardless of your place of birth?
I will keep searching for MY truth, not that which is attached to any particular country or belief... I just hope I am not judged for being who I am instead of who I am told to be!!!
Much love to all.. Drome
Dont worry I dont loose sleep over this
[ 10 July 2002, 10:38: Message edited by: dromepixie ]
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
member
536 posts
Location: carson city, nevada
536 posts
Location: carson city, nevada
Posted:
to me patriotism is love for the land you live in (or love), not love for your government. I love my country, the land is beautiful, with so much diversity between states, but I am utterly appauled at the actions of my government.
in school they tried to make me say the pledge, and sing the anthem and all of that, but I never did. went to the principal many many times for insubordination. but not singing it did not make me any less patriotic. I still loved my country and loathed my government, which was why I never sang, or said the pledge, since to me that was saying I was going along with what my government was doing.
and you are no traitor if you dont go along with your governments actions (in america anyway). part of what made america in the beginning was people who would stand out and say "THIS IS WRONG!!!!"
with your state of mind I think you should check out the website www.notinourname.net, good group of people working to change the tyrany of our government.
to me patriotism is love for the land you live in (or love), not love for your government. I love my country, the land is beautiful, with so much diversity between states, but I am utterly appauled at the actions of my government.
in school they tried to make me say the pledge, and sing the anthem and all of that, but I never did. went to the principal many many times for insubordination. but not singing it did not make me any less patriotic. I still loved my country and loathed my government, which was why I never sang, or said the pledge, since to me that was saying I was going along with what my government was doing.
and you are no traitor if you dont go along with your governments actions (in america anyway). part of what made america in the beginning was people who would stand out and say "THIS IS WRONG!!!!"
with your state of mind I think you should check out the website www.notinourname.net, good group of people working to change the tyrany of our government.
you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.
member
81 posts
Location: mesa, arizona
81 posts
Location: mesa, arizona
Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by dromepixie:
[QB]My rant of the month...
Does anyone understand what it feels like to NOT have a country? To be a child of the world!
*yes, i do! let's become the first citizens of earth!!!!
don't feel bad if you have a sour view of america, it's your right to! i have problems with all organized societies. i can't find one society that isn't harming the planet in someway!!! we need a new way of living here on earth, listen to the song imagine!!! just ranting at work, so don't mind me. oh, you might want to check out a book called "ishmael" it's by daniel s(can't remember the rest of his last name) have a great day!!! = ^ )
QB]
-ivy. = ^ )
Ralph, jesus did not have wheels.--sunday school teacher, the simpsons
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
I want to be a child of the world. i haev a lot of travelling and living i want to do elsewhere. i love land and people, but by my land and people i mean the people of earth... oi, i'm about to get really really philisophical and sentimental, os i think i'll stop here.
I want to be a child of the world. i haev a lot of travelling and living i want to do elsewhere. i love land and people, but by my land and people i mean the people of earth... oi, i'm about to get really really philisophical and sentimental, os i think i'll stop here.
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
member
81 posts
Location: mesa, arizona
81 posts
Location: mesa, arizona
Posted:
don't stop! the exchange of ideas is what is needed to become children of the world!!! tee hee, guess i'm feeling a little philisophical sittin here at work myself.
don't stop! the exchange of ideas is what is needed to become children of the world!!! tee hee, guess i'm feeling a little philisophical sittin here at work myself.
-ivy. = ^ )
Ralph, jesus did not have wheels.--sunday school teacher, the simpsons
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
I am very patriotic so finding words to discribe how I feel is wrong. I do not agree with your stance however I dont think you are wrong.
MasterNa was aboslutly correct in saying
"and you are no traitor if you dont go along with your governments actions (in america anyway). part of what made america in the beginning was people who would stand out and say "THIS IS WRONG!!!!""
America is starting to slip away from the people and sliding more twords the buerocrats, I love the land and the people and that is why I do what I do. I follow the orders of the Government because of the love I have for America.
People like Dom think that I am just a brainwashed person who will jump through hoops just because I am told. I allow myself to be led through hoops out of love for my country.
Don't be ashamed of being called an American when your in England, and dont be angred when your in America and called English. After all you probably sound and act like a Brit. and more than likey have the same dry humor. I know about things like that, my sister developed that damn thing, some of her jokes are just corny as hell.
I am very patriotic so finding words to discribe how I feel is wrong. I do not agree with your stance however I dont think you are wrong.
MasterNa was aboslutly correct in saying
"and you are no traitor if you dont go along with your governments actions (in america anyway). part of what made america in the beginning was people who would stand out and say "THIS IS WRONG!!!!""
America is starting to slip away from the people and sliding more twords the buerocrats, I love the land and the people and that is why I do what I do. I follow the orders of the Government because of the love I have for America.
People like Dom think that I am just a brainwashed person who will jump through hoops just because I am told. I allow myself to be led through hoops out of love for my country.
Don't be ashamed of being called an American when your in England, and dont be angred when your in America and called English. After all you probably sound and act like a Brit. and more than likey have the same dry humor. I know about things like that, my sister developed that damn thing, some of her jokes are just corny as hell.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
I have looked over and read a bit on the not in our name site. The first reservist or active duty person that I see who says they will not follow orders to drop bombs or occupy a country I will personally shoot for treason! The US does not target innocent civilians like our enimys do. We did not bomb any mosks or hospitals intentionally, sometimes in war civilains are killed. It cant be stoped nor prevented but we try to none the less. Hell we still have friendly fire incodents! Mistakes happen but we do not target civilian personel! Shit like that makes me so mad!!
Other than that I agree alot with the site, and the groups goal. Bush is planning a war with no end, hell WWIII is just around the corner only this time it isnt against any race or religion it is against an invisible enimy.
I have looked over and read a bit on the not in our name site. The first reservist or active duty person that I see who says they will not follow orders to drop bombs or occupy a country I will personally shoot for treason! The US does not target innocent civilians like our enimys do. We did not bomb any mosks or hospitals intentionally, sometimes in war civilains are killed. It cant be stoped nor prevented but we try to none the less. Hell we still have friendly fire incodents! Mistakes happen but we do not target civilian personel! Shit like that makes me so mad!!
Other than that I agree alot with the site, and the groups goal. Bush is planning a war with no end, hell WWIII is just around the corner only this time it isnt against any race or religion it is against an invisible enimy.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
enthusiast
385 posts
Location: NorCal
385 posts
Location: NorCal
Posted:
quote:I also have to agree with this. We're a country founded by people who were essentially separatists, who struggled and suffered for a chance to live the lives they wanted. Beurocrats suck.
MasterNa was aboslutly correct in saying
"and you are no traitor if you dont go along with your governments actions (in america anyway). part of what made america in the beginning was people who would stand out and say "THIS IS WRONG!!!!"
quote:It's Daniel Quinn...great book!
oh, you might want to check out a book called "ishmael" it's by daniel s(can't remember the rest of his last name
"Dancing can reveal all the mystery that music conceals"
~Charles Baudelaire
member
81 posts
Location: mesa, arizona
81 posts
Location: mesa, arizona
Posted:
thanks for the name, i couldn't remember, and i gave the book back to the girl that lent it too me. (i have never been one to pay for a book) i'm glad to see others have read this. any other suggestions for good reading? another good book that is really good is "nectar in a seive" it's a biography about a woman growing up in india. what i found most interesting was that she was unable to fathom our way of civilizing the world. it's so rare to hear from a perspective who doesn't have all the luxuries technology can offer...
thanks for the name, i couldn't remember, and i gave the book back to the girl that lent it too me. (i have never been one to pay for a book) i'm glad to see others have read this. any other suggestions for good reading? another good book that is really good is "nectar in a seive" it's a biography about a woman growing up in india. what i found most interesting was that she was unable to fathom our way of civilizing the world. it's so rare to hear from a perspective who doesn't have all the luxuries technology can offer...
-ivy. = ^ )
Ralph, jesus did not have wheels.--sunday school teacher, the simpsons
member
340 posts
Location: Australia
340 posts
Location: Australia
Posted:
Raymond you believe in the "american ideal" and also seem to follow your government in the vain hope that they are trying to uhold the same ideal. If this was the case then they wouldn't have sent bombs, planes, and troops over to the middle east, if the government truly upheld these high ideals then they would have won the hearts of all the citizens of the world by standing up and saying:
"We are the bigger man, even though you killed 5000 of our people and you celebrated in their death we still have compassion for your dire situation and instead of sending bombs to your country which will kill another few thousand of your people we will send food, medicines and people to help build infastructure including schools, hospitals and communication networks. We will fix up the problems in the country which allow terrorist groups to florish as the only form of leadership which the people can turn to."
You are brainwashed if you still think that by following your government you are supporting the American ideals which you hold so close.
Not being patriotic is fine, if more people were less patriotic then the governments would have more pressure to act with more integrity instead of thinking they can take advantage of the blind faith and ignorance of the patriotism which many americans embrace.
Raymond you believe in the "american ideal" and also seem to follow your government in the vain hope that they are trying to uhold the same ideal. If this was the case then they wouldn't have sent bombs, planes, and troops over to the middle east, if the government truly upheld these high ideals then they would have won the hearts of all the citizens of the world by standing up and saying:
"We are the bigger man, even though you killed 5000 of our people and you celebrated in their death we still have compassion for your dire situation and instead of sending bombs to your country which will kill another few thousand of your people we will send food, medicines and people to help build infastructure including schools, hospitals and communication networks. We will fix up the problems in the country which allow terrorist groups to florish as the only form of leadership which the people can turn to."
You are brainwashed if you still think that by following your government you are supporting the American ideals which you hold so close.
Not being patriotic is fine, if more people were less patriotic then the governments would have more pressure to act with more integrity instead of thinking they can take advantage of the blind faith and ignorance of the patriotism which many americans embrace.
HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
I'll check the book out, except I've got 1 huge book (egyptian book of the dead) to read on my 'to read list.' But I will eventually get to it... Checked out the web page, thanks, its good to see that some are fighting.
Um... I had no choice in my school.. besides I WAS brain washed into thinking that it was 'cool' to say those things and to support your country etc... Besides there was no such thing as 'acting out'...
Oh raymund, about the active duty thing... I cant help but disagree. I have spent time with many parts of the military... Including but not limited to: marines, navy, seals, seabees (branch of navy, officers of the above, and various parts of intelligence that you probably dont even know exist... Most of the people I have met there either do it for the power or because they dont know what else to do, my dad didnt know what to do, they arent there to 'serve and protect' although it is what they end up doing.
I must add... with my own ears have head a marine say 'if any marine tells you they dont like killing, they are lying' and as he said that several other marines shook their head in approval. I dont particularly like to think that little children from other countries will come face to face with these barbarias!!! I am not saying they are all like that but a significant proportion are and frankly that makes me sick!
Trust me you dont know how low your government can go so dont say they dont target innocent civilians cause they do.
Also think about the fact that they dont even need to bomb they just sanction and fuck a whole country innocent or not. Also consider that if there is no organisation in a government constantly being harrased for being part of Bush's 'axis of evil club' then there is no way of helping that countries innocents, so basically u screw with the country u screw with the innocents.
I happen to believe the whole war on terror is a big crock of shit made up by Bush to gain further control of his people, in which he is succeding gracefully. As well as gaining control of stupid politicans like Blair who kisses his ass at most every opportunity. Did anyone notice that now ALL english cops carry guns?? I mean how long are 'americans' going to let this go on for.
This situation will never change unless americans themselves get off their asses and stop the government! You can! Just got to make sure Mr. Bush himself knows that half of his country wont vote for him come next election. Otherwise you are allowing your government to do whatever they want to do. Since when have I seen any large anti-war protest in the states? (do enlighten me if I am incorrect in asking!)
Anyways I hope all you americans that can do stand up for your rights and mine cause I cant. Yep, not allowed a vote. Not here, not there. Dont ask, its complicated!
Oh and finally the british sence of humour is not corny, its clever Have you ever been so confused as to whether someone was joking or not?
Love to all, drome
quote:Ok, now that I got the traitor thing out of the way... I would like to agree with Byron. I also would like to urge those who can (I cant for several reasons) VOTE as I know most liberals from the states DONT. Yes, I do have loads of friends and family there and know for a fact their is a large population that doesn't voice their say.
Originally posted by BurningByron:
if the government truly upheld these high ideals then they would have won the hearts of all the citizens of the world by standing up and saying:
We are the bigger man, even though you killed 5000 of our people and you celebrated in their death we still have compassion for your dire situation...
I'll check the book out, except I've got 1 huge book (egyptian book of the dead) to read on my 'to read list.' But I will eventually get to it... Checked out the web page, thanks, its good to see that some are fighting.
Um... I had no choice in my school.. besides I WAS brain washed into thinking that it was 'cool' to say those things and to support your country etc... Besides there was no such thing as 'acting out'...
Oh raymund, about the active duty thing... I cant help but disagree. I have spent time with many parts of the military... Including but not limited to: marines, navy, seals, seabees (branch of navy, officers of the above, and various parts of intelligence that you probably dont even know exist... Most of the people I have met there either do it for the power or because they dont know what else to do, my dad didnt know what to do, they arent there to 'serve and protect' although it is what they end up doing.
I must add... with my own ears have head a marine say 'if any marine tells you they dont like killing, they are lying' and as he said that several other marines shook their head in approval. I dont particularly like to think that little children from other countries will come face to face with these barbarias!!! I am not saying they are all like that but a significant proportion are and frankly that makes me sick!
Trust me you dont know how low your government can go so dont say they dont target innocent civilians cause they do.
Also think about the fact that they dont even need to bomb they just sanction and fuck a whole country innocent or not. Also consider that if there is no organisation in a government constantly being harrased for being part of Bush's 'axis of evil club' then there is no way of helping that countries innocents, so basically u screw with the country u screw with the innocents.
I happen to believe the whole war on terror is a big crock of shit made up by Bush to gain further control of his people, in which he is succeding gracefully. As well as gaining control of stupid politicans like Blair who kisses his ass at most every opportunity. Did anyone notice that now ALL english cops carry guns?? I mean how long are 'americans' going to let this go on for.
This situation will never change unless americans themselves get off their asses and stop the government! You can! Just got to make sure Mr. Bush himself knows that half of his country wont vote for him come next election. Otherwise you are allowing your government to do whatever they want to do. Since when have I seen any large anti-war protest in the states? (do enlighten me if I am incorrect in asking!)
Anyways I hope all you americans that can do stand up for your rights and mine cause I cant. Yep, not allowed a vote. Not here, not there. Dont ask, its complicated!
Oh and finally the british sence of humour is not corny, its clever Have you ever been so confused as to whether someone was joking or not?
Love to all, drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
member
102 posts
Location: Austria
102 posts
Location: Austria
Posted:
it's not just the US u know?
in a whole lot of countries the 'excuse' of war against terrorism has made it possible to push laws through that make my skin crawl.
like being able to listen to fone calls without uhm what would the term be...reasonable suspicion??
or being able to arrest people for wearing concealing clothes at demos ....so ok hooligans (i can't think of another word) at demos should be arrested but if u wear an outfit to protest against something (like a cow costume to protest against mistreatment of animals....).
another new thing we have over here is a 'public' patrol...people with dogs mobiles and stuff 'patrolling' school areas and park to fight against the bad bad people of abroad (only 3rd world countries mind) who off course are ALL drug sellers.....grrrowl
sometimes i think all this terrorism scare going on in the media is an excuse to promote racism. do i immagine it or has the tenor in the last few years changed to 'all muslims are evil' in the media?
i can only speak for austria mind but here most of the reports on crime, terrorism and stuff seems to be about foreigners in general and blackpeople and muslims in particular....
Morgy
it's not just the US u know?
in a whole lot of countries the 'excuse' of war against terrorism has made it possible to push laws through that make my skin crawl.
like being able to listen to fone calls without uhm what would the term be...reasonable suspicion??
or being able to arrest people for wearing concealing clothes at demos ....so ok hooligans (i can't think of another word) at demos should be arrested but if u wear an outfit to protest against something (like a cow costume to protest against mistreatment of animals....).
another new thing we have over here is a 'public' patrol...people with dogs mobiles and stuff 'patrolling' school areas and park to fight against the bad bad people of abroad (only 3rd world countries mind) who off course are ALL drug sellers.....grrrowl
sometimes i think all this terrorism scare going on in the media is an excuse to promote racism. do i immagine it or has the tenor in the last few years changed to 'all muslims are evil' in the media?
i can only speak for austria mind but here most of the reports on crime, terrorism and stuff seems to be about foreigners in general and blackpeople and muslims in particular....
Morgy
Out to Wrong Rights and Depress the Opressed.
member
382 posts
Location: Southampton
382 posts
Location: Southampton
Posted:
Off at a tangent a bit but chairmenmeow47 why did you choose that name? Is it satirical or something? The man was a f**king ogre.
Oh and Ray, you don't purposely kill the innocents but ignorance killing is no excuse either mate.
Off at a tangent a bit but chairmenmeow47 why did you choose that name? Is it satirical or something? The man was a f**king ogre.
Oh and Ray, you don't purposely kill the innocents but ignorance killing is no excuse either mate.
A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
I am aware that it isnt just the United States
The subject was really about the states but feel free to bitch about any other goverment or organization; like chairmenmeow i too have problems with all organized societies.
I mean chaos makes more sence to me!
Much love to all... Drome
I am aware that it isnt just the United States
The subject was really about the states but feel free to bitch about any other goverment or organization; like chairmenmeow i too have problems with all organized societies.
I mean chaos makes more sence to me!
Much love to all... Drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
member
102 posts
Location: Austria
102 posts
Location: Austria
Posted:
can we agree on orderly chaos??
reason i ain't bitchin about the US is that after mere 9 months living there i don't feel uhm entitled to do so...i mean i saw much i liked and much i didn't....grin another thing is that people have this nice 'i am allowed to bitch about my country but no foreigner is...' reflex thingy
but some of those new laws u have over there are scary indeed reminds me so much of orwell
Morgy
can we agree on orderly chaos??
reason i ain't bitchin about the US is that after mere 9 months living there i don't feel uhm entitled to do so...i mean i saw much i liked and much i didn't....grin another thing is that people have this nice 'i am allowed to bitch about my country but no foreigner is...' reflex thingy
but some of those new laws u have over there are scary indeed reminds me so much of orwell
Morgy
Out to Wrong Rights and Depress the Opressed.
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
Yeah! Sure! organized chaos sounds great!!!!!
Kisses and hugs for all! Drome
quote:What kinda chaos you thought I meant...
Originally posted by Morgane:
can we agree on orderly chaos??
Yeah! Sure! organized chaos sounds great!!!!!
Kisses and hugs for all! Drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
member
557 posts
Location: The Underworld
557 posts
Location: The Underworld
Posted:
I have very strong feelings about the issues raised here. If I start, I don't think I'd be able to stop myself, so all I'm going to say is this:
As a citizen of both The 'United' States and of the 'United' Kingdom, I have seen the affect Patriotism can have on a populace. We ARE children of the Earth. No-one is born patriotic, it is merely a trait that is instilled in us through years of social conditioning (as are most of our beliefs).
As a discodian, I believe it is my right, and in some cases, my duty, to break the pattern and ask, why?
Why am I blindly following in the footsteps of millions of others before me? It isn't getting me anywhere. I too pledged the flag as a child. It was never questioned, because that was how it always had been. Kids have no concept of how such actions may shape their futures, they just do as they're told.
Anyway, I'm automatically going off on one here, so I'll round up.
Patriotism is merely another box that society fits into nicely.
Break tho mold.
Live for you.
And as DromePixie says- JUST BE.
We are lucky to have the freedom to be ourselves, don't ever let anyone take that away.
Peace xx
I have very strong feelings about the issues raised here. If I start, I don't think I'd be able to stop myself, so all I'm going to say is this:
As a citizen of both The 'United' States and of the 'United' Kingdom, I have seen the affect Patriotism can have on a populace. We ARE children of the Earth. No-one is born patriotic, it is merely a trait that is instilled in us through years of social conditioning (as are most of our beliefs).
As a discodian, I believe it is my right, and in some cases, my duty, to break the pattern and ask, why?
Why am I blindly following in the footsteps of millions of others before me? It isn't getting me anywhere. I too pledged the flag as a child. It was never questioned, because that was how it always had been. Kids have no concept of how such actions may shape their futures, they just do as they're told.
Anyway, I'm automatically going off on one here, so I'll round up.
Patriotism is merely another box that society fits into nicely.
Break tho mold.
Live for you.
And as DromePixie says- JUST BE.
We are lucky to have the freedom to be ourselves, don't ever let anyone take that away.
Peace xx
Az abouve, So below...
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
Drome, I know what you mean about being a child of the world. Contrary to appearances I'm not the full Brit I appear to be. My mother is Maltese, my father British so I hold 2 passports. Cool! I was born in Dubai, but soon moved to Brunei where I lived until I was 9, after which we moved to the UK and spent school holidays in Brunei or Malta (where we still have a lovely little house). And I've travelled about quite a bit.
So I've never really felt too tied down to anywhere physically. I think that having been brought up in and experienced a mix of cultures (for me Western, Catholic and Islamic cultures) helps give the mind more reference points for everyday life, helping you if you're more open minded.
Personally I think the UK and Malta are wicked places! Can't think of anywhere nicer to live now than London, and Malta's a great place. However I also really hate a lot about both countries.
Patriotism is a funny thing. It's great when it helps people bond together and creates community spirit. But more often it helps power people's prejudices and xenophobia and can be used very negatively.
An example is the US Patriot Act. A frightening name for a set of frightening laws. It includes many powers (like power of arrest and incarceration on mere hearsay of criminal intent) that would never be passed normally but in today's paranoid times are accepted. To oppose the act is dressed up as unpatriotic and anti-American. Very, very clever on the governments part.
Another little Bush fact by the way. Bush has promised to clamp down on company fraud which is making the US economy so unstable. Today Dick Cheney has had legal proceedings started against him for company fraud. And Bush? He's already been found guilty of insider trading.
Me, I'm patriotic to the world!
Drome, I know what you mean about being a child of the world. Contrary to appearances I'm not the full Brit I appear to be. My mother is Maltese, my father British so I hold 2 passports. Cool! I was born in Dubai, but soon moved to Brunei where I lived until I was 9, after which we moved to the UK and spent school holidays in Brunei or Malta (where we still have a lovely little house). And I've travelled about quite a bit.
So I've never really felt too tied down to anywhere physically. I think that having been brought up in and experienced a mix of cultures (for me Western, Catholic and Islamic cultures) helps give the mind more reference points for everyday life, helping you if you're more open minded.
Personally I think the UK and Malta are wicked places! Can't think of anywhere nicer to live now than London, and Malta's a great place. However I also really hate a lot about both countries.
Patriotism is a funny thing. It's great when it helps people bond together and creates community spirit. But more often it helps power people's prejudices and xenophobia and can be used very negatively.
An example is the US Patriot Act. A frightening name for a set of frightening laws. It includes many powers (like power of arrest and incarceration on mere hearsay of criminal intent) that would never be passed normally but in today's paranoid times are accepted. To oppose the act is dressed up as unpatriotic and anti-American. Very, very clever on the governments part.
Another little Bush fact by the way. Bush has promised to clamp down on company fraud which is making the US economy so unstable. Today Dick Cheney has had legal proceedings started against him for company fraud. And Bush? He's already been found guilty of insider trading.
Me, I'm patriotic to the world!
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
about the anti-war protests... they are major hushed up and there arn't a ton of them, but they are not reported on at all, or "played down"
as to what i was saying earlier, i'll coem back for taht later, when i haev more time
about the anti-war protests... they are major hushed up and there arn't a ton of them, but they are not reported on at all, or "played down"
as to what i was saying earlier, i'll coem back for taht later, when i haev more time
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Wow, attacked on all sides... I love those odds!
I dont know if you all understand the logic of the human mind, well those of you who believe in Anarchy. Anarchy means the total lack of a government or governing body, that is the short and the long of it right?? The human race lives together, we coexist with eachother on one scale or another, if anarchy was humanly possible we would all be 100% self sufficiant. That in itself is humanly impossible, humans have historically needed a leader of some kind or another. Its the way we feel safe its the way we cope with problems, it's the way we live our dayly lives.
BurningByron, you know nothing of faith or patriotisim, do you know what it means to be willing to die for someone you dont know. That is patriotisim. Being willing to fight and die to protect that person on the other side of town or on the country or that person you dont like. In my opinion if you have the ability to do that then you may call me anything you wish, because then and only then you are my equal.
I am not judging you its just my opinion.
I take pride in being called a barbarion, though I dont want to kill but I have no problem doing so.
Dont be angry at me because of my opinion thats being closed minded, somthing I am hypocritically accused of almost every day.
Wow, attacked on all sides... I love those odds!
I dont know if you all understand the logic of the human mind, well those of you who believe in Anarchy. Anarchy means the total lack of a government or governing body, that is the short and the long of it right?? The human race lives together, we coexist with eachother on one scale or another, if anarchy was humanly possible we would all be 100% self sufficiant. That in itself is humanly impossible, humans have historically needed a leader of some kind or another. Its the way we feel safe its the way we cope with problems, it's the way we live our dayly lives.
BurningByron, you know nothing of faith or patriotisim, do you know what it means to be willing to die for someone you dont know. That is patriotisim. Being willing to fight and die to protect that person on the other side of town or on the country or that person you dont like. In my opinion if you have the ability to do that then you may call me anything you wish, because then and only then you are my equal.
I am not judging you its just my opinion.
I take pride in being called a barbarion, though I dont want to kill but I have no problem doing so.
Dont be angry at me because of my opinion thats being closed minded, somthing I am hypocritically accused of almost every day.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
557 posts
Location: The Underworld
557 posts
Location: The Underworld
Posted:
pardon me while I projectile vomit.
pardon me while I projectile vomit.
Az abouve, So below...
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
Oh exiting conspiracy!
Thanks Dom, reading article now...
I also found it funny when I read the Gaurdian, front page yesterday, Bush... Ha 'We will aim to stop any executive who breaks the LAW' yeah so long as his ass aint on the chopper...
Much love, drome
Oh exiting conspiracy!
Thanks Dom, reading article now...
I also found it funny when I read the Gaurdian, front page yesterday, Bush... Ha 'We will aim to stop any executive who breaks the LAW' yeah so long as his ass aint on the chopper...
Much love, drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
Made my post then 2 new ones show up on the thread while I make a 2 line message....
Um... Well where to start... Hmmm....
Raymund, I dont mean to pick bones with you...
I just dont agree. I understand the need for a leader but that does not mean we have to be told what, when and how to do things...
No one metioned Anarchy here and just because we dont support government does not mean we are anarchists... Once again lables and presumed states of mind...
In addition to that history has been going on for a while... (understament of the century) So you dont really know the implications of your statement... Even if you are right with the historical trend thing... Dont you think history needs to change and humans should evolve??
I personally think it would be great if humans worried more about themselves than other people...
Know any dutch people?? Most of my dutch friends could give a f*** less if I set myself on fire or put a needle in my vein so long as I am not harming them! I think thats a good way to think!
and finally... I am willing to die for a couple of people but never will I die in the name of a cause that I:
a- dont understand
b-dont believe in
Thats why I didnt join the air force academy... Yeah I once had some deluded thoughts about how it would be good for me to do such a thing... Took a couple of friends and some fucked up realizations to avoid selling my soul to the government...
They'll never own my mind!
See you guys later take care! Much love, drome
Made my post then 2 new ones show up on the thread while I make a 2 line message....
Um... Well where to start... Hmmm....
Raymund, I dont mean to pick bones with you...
I just dont agree. I understand the need for a leader but that does not mean we have to be told what, when and how to do things...
No one metioned Anarchy here and just because we dont support government does not mean we are anarchists... Once again lables and presumed states of mind...
In addition to that history has been going on for a while... (understament of the century) So you dont really know the implications of your statement... Even if you are right with the historical trend thing... Dont you think history needs to change and humans should evolve??
I personally think it would be great if humans worried more about themselves than other people...
Know any dutch people?? Most of my dutch friends could give a f*** less if I set myself on fire or put a needle in my vein so long as I am not harming them! I think thats a good way to think!
and finally... I am willing to die for a couple of people but never will I die in the name of a cause that I:
a- dont understand
b-dont believe in
Thats why I didnt join the air force academy... Yeah I once had some deluded thoughts about how it would be good for me to do such a thing... Took a couple of friends and some fucked up realizations to avoid selling my soul to the government...
They'll never own my mind!
See you guys later take care! Much love, drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Umm my soul is still rightfully mine, and I dont blame you I wouldnt want to go to the Air Force Acadomy either Then again both my parents where in the Air Force and they are more jacked up then the rest of the military. Nasties, thats all I have to say about them they nasty.
I know nobody said anything about anarchy but then again I also know that several people who have posted are believes in anarchy so thats why I put it in.
Nope dont know any dutch but I do know that just because you know a few people who your willing to die for you are not seen as an equal in my eyes its when you would be willing to die for them all that makes you my equal in my eyes.
Once again this is just my "closed minded" opinion.
Umm my soul is still rightfully mine, and I dont blame you I wouldnt want to go to the Air Force Acadomy either Then again both my parents where in the Air Force and they are more jacked up then the rest of the military. Nasties, thats all I have to say about them they nasty.
I know nobody said anything about anarchy but then again I also know that several people who have posted are believes in anarchy so thats why I put it in.
Nope dont know any dutch but I do know that just because you know a few people who your willing to die for you are not seen as an equal in my eyes its when you would be willing to die for them all that makes you my equal in my eyes.
Once again this is just my "closed minded" opinion.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
321 posts
Location: arizona
321 posts
Location: arizona
Posted:
live in what ever country you want. without goverment we would not develope as a society.
you dont have to say the pledge or agree with everything goverments do. when it comes down to it though you either have to improve a situation by actions or deal with what you have. in my opinion we dont have it bad at all. you cant just stand up for a select few people in your life. you have to be prepared to stand up there way of life and all the other people who beleive in that way of life. it cant be every man for himself. thats not how society works.
live in what ever country you want. without goverment we would not develope as a society.
you dont have to say the pledge or agree with everything goverments do. when it comes down to it though you either have to improve a situation by actions or deal with what you have. in my opinion we dont have it bad at all. you cant just stand up for a select few people in your life. you have to be prepared to stand up there way of life and all the other people who beleive in that way of life. it cant be every man for himself. thats not how society works.
drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
Step 1)
Ray, you, a self confessed extremist are trying say you know the human condition better than anyone else? From what I've seen you've still got a lot of growing up and learning to do before you can even begin to understand your own mind let alone other people's. You constantly judge other people and assume you know how they feel and act. I hope for your sakes you learn that life is not this simple.
The flaw in your argument is that you have no idea what the concept of anarchy can be. You buy into the supermarket media view that anarchy is people running round only interested in themselves. I'm afraid it isn't that simple.
Anarchism is a political theory that aims to create a society which is without political, economic or social hierarchies. Extreme socialism really, where everyone is an equal and helps makes decisions for a group. An anarchist unit can be a lone, self supporting individual, or collective coexisting, supporting and trading with other groups. If you really want to know more then there is loads of information on this out there, and there are people beginning to lead these independent lives. A bit of anarchy will do us all good.
Right, now something a bit more hard hitting.
Ray, time and time again I hear you yapping on about "willing to die for someone you dont know", jumping on this James Bond like claim as if it constitutes a worthwhile point that justifies your narrow mindedness opinions and rants. Quite frankly I'm sick of this bollocks.
One, dying for someone isn't really that useful is it? Surely it's better to be alive and continue to help than use yourself up completely in one single act? A life time of work weighs more than a life.
Face it Ray, you would not altruistically sacrifice yourself for a random stranger. While on peace keeping duties in a random country would you jump in front of a native stranger who was about to be shot by an ethnic rival if it was the only way to save them? I doubt it completely. If you say you would then go ask a superior officer for their opinion and they'll tell you it wouldn't be the best thing to do. This is what willing to die for a stranger is.
You serve as a US Marine. You have signed up to work for your country, and by working in the army you help protect the US, its citizens and interests as entities, not as individuals. You can also be deployed in other duties which are not directly protecting the US. Quite often your job involves an element of risk, pretty much like anything else in life. You'll obey orders as that's what you've signed up to do and is what you believe to be right. Fair enough, there's respect to be earned there.
But admit it, the chances of you dieing while in service is next to nothing. For one thing the US only puts it's troops on the ground when it's sure the chances of casualties are really, really low. I'm not sure of how many marines have died in action over the last 20 years, but as you tend to hear about every single one of them I'm sure it's not many. Secondly, you're a technician who works in the armory. The chances of you actually seeing a dangerous field of operations is made even slimmer by the fact that you're sat in a secure armory polishing other people's guns.
Nobody else I know in the army now or in the past has ever mentioned dying for strangers and dying for your country is rarely thought about. It doesn't happen much these days and dying isn't something soldiers seem to talk about much.
Face it, the sacrifice you seem so willing and so very keen to make will never be asked of you. You've volunteered to serve in the army and that involves some risk, but it really isn't a very large risk to your life.
So quite frankly, and I know I'm not alone here, your claim to be willing to die for other people carries little weight with me, and what weight is does have is seriously out weighed by the fact that you come across as an arrogant, narrow minded, sanctimonious, holier-than-thou red neck. So get off your high horse, grow up, open your mind a bit and chill the fuck out!
Just my 2 cents
Step 2) Hit 'Add Reply', sit back, and wait...
[ 11 July 2002, 04:26: Message edited by: Dom ]
Step 1)
Ray, you, a self confessed extremist are trying say you know the human condition better than anyone else? From what I've seen you've still got a lot of growing up and learning to do before you can even begin to understand your own mind let alone other people's. You constantly judge other people and assume you know how they feel and act. I hope for your sakes you learn that life is not this simple.
The flaw in your argument is that you have no idea what the concept of anarchy can be. You buy into the supermarket media view that anarchy is people running round only interested in themselves. I'm afraid it isn't that simple.
Anarchism is a political theory that aims to create a society which is without political, economic or social hierarchies. Extreme socialism really, where everyone is an equal and helps makes decisions for a group. An anarchist unit can be a lone, self supporting individual, or collective coexisting, supporting and trading with other groups. If you really want to know more then there is loads of information on this out there, and there are people beginning to lead these independent lives. A bit of anarchy will do us all good.
Right, now something a bit more hard hitting.
Ray, time and time again I hear you yapping on about "willing to die for someone you dont know", jumping on this James Bond like claim as if it constitutes a worthwhile point that justifies your narrow mindedness opinions and rants. Quite frankly I'm sick of this bollocks.
One, dying for someone isn't really that useful is it? Surely it's better to be alive and continue to help than use yourself up completely in one single act? A life time of work weighs more than a life.
Face it Ray, you would not altruistically sacrifice yourself for a random stranger. While on peace keeping duties in a random country would you jump in front of a native stranger who was about to be shot by an ethnic rival if it was the only way to save them? I doubt it completely. If you say you would then go ask a superior officer for their opinion and they'll tell you it wouldn't be the best thing to do. This is what willing to die for a stranger is.
You serve as a US Marine. You have signed up to work for your country, and by working in the army you help protect the US, its citizens and interests as entities, not as individuals. You can also be deployed in other duties which are not directly protecting the US. Quite often your job involves an element of risk, pretty much like anything else in life. You'll obey orders as that's what you've signed up to do and is what you believe to be right. Fair enough, there's respect to be earned there.
But admit it, the chances of you dieing while in service is next to nothing. For one thing the US only puts it's troops on the ground when it's sure the chances of casualties are really, really low. I'm not sure of how many marines have died in action over the last 20 years, but as you tend to hear about every single one of them I'm sure it's not many. Secondly, you're a technician who works in the armory. The chances of you actually seeing a dangerous field of operations is made even slimmer by the fact that you're sat in a secure armory polishing other people's guns.
Nobody else I know in the army now or in the past has ever mentioned dying for strangers and dying for your country is rarely thought about. It doesn't happen much these days and dying isn't something soldiers seem to talk about much.
Face it, the sacrifice you seem so willing and so very keen to make will never be asked of you. You've volunteered to serve in the army and that involves some risk, but it really isn't a very large risk to your life.
So quite frankly, and I know I'm not alone here, your claim to be willing to die for other people carries little weight with me, and what weight is does have is seriously out weighed by the fact that you come across as an arrogant, narrow minded, sanctimonious, holier-than-thou red neck. So get off your high horse, grow up, open your mind a bit and chill the fuck out!
Just my 2 cents
Step 2) Hit 'Add Reply', sit back, and wait...
[ 11 July 2002, 04:26: Message edited by: Dom ]
member
321 posts
Location: arizona
321 posts
Location: arizona
Posted:
im an american and i do say and feel pretty much what i want. i couldnt imagine being more free then iam.. unless someone wants to create a country where everything is free and there are no consequences for anything i do and no one tries to hurt anyone else or take anything from anyone else.. anyone know of such a country?? im all ears
im an american and i do say and feel pretty much what i want. i couldnt imagine being more free then iam.. unless someone wants to create a country where everything is free and there are no consequences for anything i do and no one tries to hurt anyone else or take anything from anyone else.. anyone know of such a country?? im all ears
drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!
member
321 posts
Location: arizona
321 posts
Location: arizona
Posted:
hold on now dom:
"One, dying for someone isn't really that useful is it? Surely it's better to be alive and continue to help than use yourself up completely in one single act? A life time of work weighs more than a life."
its not about ray its about him and his thousands of brothers willing to do the same. some one always has to stand up. noe if it was just ray i would agree with you. his death alone wouldnt help much. the great thing about a military power is that they stand as a combined force of men and women willing to die to save others. thats power it it does change things. no one can deny that. instead of a woman trying to defend her 3 children all by herself against an envading force a soldiers will step in and defend her and her family. thats a beautiful thing. its human nature to defend weaker people who cant defend themselves.
hold on now dom:
"One, dying for someone isn't really that useful is it? Surely it's better to be alive and continue to help than use yourself up completely in one single act? A life time of work weighs more than a life."
its not about ray its about him and his thousands of brothers willing to do the same. some one always has to stand up. noe if it was just ray i would agree with you. his death alone wouldnt help much. the great thing about a military power is that they stand as a combined force of men and women willing to die to save others. thats power it it does change things. no one can deny that. instead of a woman trying to defend her 3 children all by herself against an envading force a soldiers will step in and defend her and her family. thats a beautiful thing. its human nature to defend weaker people who cant defend themselves.
drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
All I can say is: Dom, you got balls of steel!!
Getting back to another post by lightbug...
a quote
'you have to be prepared to stand up for that way of life and all the other people who beleive in that way of life. it cant be every man for himself. thats not how society works.'
First: I die for who I want to die for, unless I'm killed of course.
Second: how can you say that it cant be every man for himself, have you ever experienced that?
Finally: what the fuck is society anyway, besides a stupid label...
Gimme good answers and you get the prize
Love to all, drome
quote:
Originally posted by Dom:
Step 1)
Ray, you, a self confessed extremist are trying say you know the human condition better than anyone else?
...and I know I'm not alone here, your claim to be willing to die for other people carries little weight with me, and what weight is does have is seriously out weighed by the fact that you come across as an arrogant, narrow minded, sanctimonious, holier-than-thou red neck. So get off your high horse, grow up, open your mind a bit and chill the fuck out!
Just my 2 cents
Step 2) Hit 'Add Reply', sit back, and wait...
All I can say is: Dom, you got balls of steel!!
Getting back to another post by lightbug...
a quote
'you have to be prepared to stand up for that way of life and all the other people who beleive in that way of life. it cant be every man for himself. thats not how society works.'
First: I die for who I want to die for, unless I'm killed of course.
Second: how can you say that it cant be every man for himself, have you ever experienced that?
Finally: what the fuck is society anyway, besides a stupid label...
Gimme good answers and you get the prize
Love to all, drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
member
321 posts
Location: arizona
321 posts
Location: arizona
Posted:
also dom we arent in any kind of real serious war.
thats why marines arent dying in huge numbers.
they have though , and they will again.
also dom we arent in any kind of real serious war.
thats why marines arent dying in huge numbers.
they have though , and they will again.
drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
look...
you ever sat next to your father who is crying on veterans day? he saw those kids killed, friends of his in his face and you know what he says:
'no one understands the stupidity of war like a soldier who served in one'
dont even try to understand, because you dont..
'brothers willing to die for each other'
yeah, right...
my dad put his ass on the line and when he finished he got jack shit except for a purple heart (a piece of metal) and maybe a small bonus...
trust me I've met and have been close to many of these people... They dont die for 'their country, or their brothers' they die because they are put in that situation... Dont try to put some sort of gold medal on the military... It does not work that way...
ciao, drome
look...
you ever sat next to your father who is crying on veterans day? he saw those kids killed, friends of his in his face and you know what he says:
'no one understands the stupidity of war like a soldier who served in one'
dont even try to understand, because you dont..
'brothers willing to die for each other'
yeah, right...
my dad put his ass on the line and when he finished he got jack shit except for a purple heart (a piece of metal) and maybe a small bonus...
trust me I've met and have been close to many of these people... They dont die for 'their country, or their brothers' they die because they are put in that situation... Dont try to put some sort of gold medal on the military... It does not work that way...
ciao, drome
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
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