Forums > Technical Discussion > UltraPoi - Super Bright LED Sock Poi

Posted: 22nd Dec 2010
I like em. I ordered the white socks and led from here. I also have a set of gloves from liquidemotions. They do sell poi there and they have some of the brightest LEDs I have even seen in person, but I have yet to see poi like yours. Mine are close, but not near close enough.

I know I shoulda clicked the links but I am lazy. What is the total after shipping? (states)

Also, are those D or Cs? They look huge

Posted: 22nd Dec 2010
We use rechargeable CR123 batteries in our poi at the moment. They can be run off any battery, but that is what we've designed our cases for to keep the size and weight down.

They last for several hours at a time, longer depending on the mode you are running with the poi. Things like constant super bright white will drain batteries faster than strobes. During testing i've left a pair on the brightest white for over 2hrs and they showed no signs of stopping. Its hard to watch them for longer than they because they are so bright!

So long as i have my batteries fully charged, i don't worry about them running out of batteries during a night of spinning. I still sometimes bring an extra pair just in case.

The cases are about 2 inches in diameter and about 1.75 inches tall. The batteries are about 1.5 inches long and .65 inches in diameter. So they are a little fatter than AA, but about 3/4 as long.

Shipping in the states is a flat $10.

<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 22nd Dec 2010
Sure looks like PVC pipe fittings from the hardware store to me.

Posted: 22nd Dec 2010

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Notice the data printed around the rim of the cap. Those are PVC pipe fittings...

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
Well if your just jumping into the middle of this form, without reading any of the prior post you may be out of the loop. The current version you are seeing in the pictures are our Gen 2 Ultra Poi being hand made by me and are available currently if you would like to purchase them (just added the shopping cart to our website). The battery cover is a standard pvc pipe cap (very good Jared!!) but the poi body is a little more complicated. Right now I think they are pretty dam good for hand made and defiantly the most durable and exciting poi I have ever spun for the price. I believe the current host for the poi are completely functional and I'm not sure if you are trying to imply that this is some sort of sin or something. Our Gen 3 Ultra Poi on the other hand are being sent off to be professionally manufactured with a poly carbonate body mold and being mass assembled in stages (no more micro soldering for me!!!) which will be due for commercial sale by early next year. Hopefully this weekend I should be able to shoot some videos of the new mode sequences that we have been working on for the new sequence library.

<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
Actually, I've read the whole thing; and you did say that 2nd gen ultrapoi were made with a polycarbonate mold, but said nothing about a PVC cap.
It is a misleading bit of advertisement, granted it may not be intentional, but still misleading. Coupled with the lack of specifications provided, it makes me wary of your products.

PVC pipe is not the highest quality material these days, and can become brittle. It may seem fine now, but give it a little time, and it could actually break quite easily if you hit it just right. I can tell you from experience, PVC will cut to the bone. I've worked with it for 10 years and I couldn't begin to count how many times I've cut myself on broken PVC.

Not trying to scare anybody away or anything. They are good looking poi, I just see a flaw that maybe you didn't know about. Also, if I were spending that much money, I would want to know exactly what I was getting. If I had been told polycarbonate, and got a set of poi with PVC pieces, I wouldn't be too happy.

I would come up with a temporary alternative to the cap, then put together some detailed information about them.
I might even be tempted to pick up a pair myself at some point, but it would have to be 3rd gen or later when the PVC isn't a part of them anymore.

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
Maybe something like this to replace the PVC?
Pipeconx cap

Since it's not holding any pressure, it should fit snug enough to hang on without the metal band.
EDITED_BY: JaredW (1293089364)
EDIT_REASON: Broken link

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
Wow I'm really glad you have had such a long history in PVC although it does sound like you should be more careful. To my understanding their are a number of reasons why PVC becomes brittle. Well when used for plumbing it is exposed to constant ware on long stretches of pipe from water, changing temperatures and weathering in general. Now unless your planning to leave them outside during winter and such you wont have a problem. (and even then I still think they would be fine!) I have used them for 6 months now and have stressed tested pairs by swinging them against the concrete several times (and now running the over with my truck) with only minor scratches and I still use them today. Never have I feared of cutting myself to the bone (haha are you kidding me?) and I think you are ridiculously over reacting.

Those caps could be good too...although I usually don't spin with the cap on at all because the battery is secure and I prefer it off.

<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
Well I'm not going to debate it with you. I've seen PVC be hit by truck and be fine like you said, and I've seen PVC break before it was ever even used.
I hope you don't run into the latter.

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010

I've been watching this thread for a while, unsure of whether to say anything about my experiences with Ultrapoi. This is a fledgling company (extremely so, from what I can see) and yet they do need to learn some fundamental aspects of Customer Service. Some of their flippant replies to honest questions in this thread like "what exactly are you selling" have forced me to write this post.

I ordered some Ultrapoi back at the start of November and was quoted 7 to 10 days delivery for my $20 International postage. The package was not sent via FedEx as one would expect, but by US Postal Service. Nevertheless, in the past I have been sent all variety of things from the US to UK via FedEx (including electrical components that must provide some Customs head-scratching) and everything took only a few days to arrive. The Ultrapoi package got either lost or withheld in Chicago after 2 days and never turned up. There followed a lot of increasingly frustrating emails to Ultrapoi where I tried to get them to find out what was going on. In one case I was told that it was up to _me_ to keep them posted on the whereabouts of my package as "I've never mailed anything internationally, so this is a bit of an experiment for both of us". Often my emails would go unanswered for several days, which when I was in the position of feeling ripped off by $220 is not acceptable.

I was eventually refunded, some 34 days after purchase, mostly after I started making threats about how small the online poi community was. The fact that they were willing ultimately to refund is obviously a good sign for the future and I feel worth stressing. At the last minute, they offered to send out a replacement instead of a refund, but since they had no clue why the previous package had been lost then I could not bring myself to wait another month to find out if the same thing happened again...

Right at the start (Nov 11th) I was asking, understandably, for some instructions on the various modes that the poi offered, and was told that I'd be emailed them by the end of the week. Well, as you can see from this forum they still haven't written those instructions. And considering the interface of the poi is a couple of buttons, one that sets a colour mode and another that sets a sub-mode... it's not rocket science to knock up a quick list.

So in the absence of Hyperlights (I'm still 400 or so on the waiting list for Hyperlights myself) , feel free to try out these guys. If you _actually_ receive your goods then apparently you can have some cheap-Hyperlight clones (with actually a lot of missing functionality) within 10 days, which is obviously the attraction. But my advice, unless you have a spare $220 you have otherwise no need of, would be to wait around for them to become an established company with a proven track-record, and perhaps a bit more humility.

Also, be aware that according to Ultrapoi these are full-price, pre-production prototypes of something that people will "definitely want to buy all over again when they see the production model". At least... that's what they say!

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
JaredW and Rabbit,
Please excuse my brother, he can be a bit rough around the edges some times and feels like some people on this forum would rather see us fail than succeed. Let me make a couple of posts here to explain and resolve a few things.

There are a lot of Hyperlight fans out there who may see us as competition or a knock off and I want to explain that this isn't the case.

First, Hyperlights are their own product. They cost more than twice as much as an ultrapoi and the batches are produced maybe once a year. They have their own feature sets which we are not competing with.

The only similarity between Hyperlights and Ultrapoi is that we both feature the same light source. In contrast to hyperlights we offer a product that costs half as much, features 30 set modes (some of which can be duplicated on hyperlights, and some that cannot), with multiple modes that can be modulated out to change how a sequence is displayed.

When someone orders a pair of UltraPoi we do our best to see that their set arrives within 2 weeks. We are also working hard every day to expand our product line, the quality of our products, and to make it in a very niche hobby.

Most of all we are not trying to replace hyperlights, we are only trying to fill what we think is a need for more advanced props in the community and we are making multiple products such as hoops, orbits, ect to fill that gap.

<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
JaredW
I've had my share of experiences with PVC and would like to address you first since you express a safety concern. With regards to our current gen ultrapoi using PVC cases I would like to point out a few things.
First, most PVC breaks at the pipe. Rarely do couplings ever become brittle and crack. Couplings are intentionally stronger and more resilient than pipe as I am sure you know.
Second, PVC is subject to some of the harshest conditions imaginable. How many poi props do you have that can withstand being left in the sun or buried underground, or subjected to the extreme weather conditions that PVC must withstand.
Any plastic can become brittle and break with a sharp edge. How many here can count on less than one hand the amount of broken flow lights they have seen? Plastics are brittle, but we cannot make our poi out of metal, glass, or brick either.

Someone with as much experience using PVC as you must also realize that 99% of the time it is strong, and as you said, can be run over by a truck. We chose our current gen cases with durability in mind. I've dropped these cases off rooftops, run over them, thrown them against brick walls, hit them with bats, ect. I have yet to damage a case without using power tools. They simply won't break. I can leave a case on my roof for you, and check on it in a few months if you'd like, but I have the distinct feeling the result won't be much different than it is now.

<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
Rabbit,
As expressed in our emails back and forth, I am sorry that your poi set did not show up. But I issued a full refund after 30 days from the date I shipped it. I have never attempted to ship something internationally before, and my hope was that the US postal service would come through for me. It was a lesson learned for us, and now all of our products shipped out of country will be shipped via fedex. I recently shipped a pair of UltraPoi to Arizona, and while I still used the postal service, I paid extra for tracking, signature confirmation and insurance. We are just starting out, but we will learn from any mistakes made and seek to make amends.

With Regards to your story, I would like to reply point by point.

You paid on the 11th, a Thursday. It isn't unreasonable that I dropped your poi set off at the post office Monday morning. It was one of the first sets that we sold and I wanted to make sure everything came out perfect out of the box.

I quoted 7-10 days shipping because that is what was quoted on the postal service website for shipping to the UK. There was no way for me to know that the numbers would be inaccurate.

I try to answer emails promptly, but it is the holiday season. I know you do not have Thanksgiving in the UK, but during that week I was spending time with the family. It is an excuse I know, but a shipping time of 2 weeks also did not seem out of the question for me. I have had packages from China take nearly a month to arrive via their postal service.

Your refund had nothing to do with threats to post negatively about us to the poi community. It had to do with our product not arriving after 30 days from the day I shipped it. We agreed upon giving you a refund two weeks prior to that, and I issued it on the day we agreed. I also expressed hope that it would somehow still arrive, and that if it ever does you do not have to return it.

With several days left before the 15th I offered to send you a new poi set via FedEX with a tracking number as an option instead of a refund. I wish I had thought of this as an option sooner, but I still had hope your package would have arrived.

Lastly, yes these are pre production models. Yes we are working on new modes so we can continue to have a better product. But I also told you that anyone who bought a pre production model could receive an upgrade at near cost to us. We are already trying to sell the most advanced and brightest LED poi available. Instead of resting on that we are still trying to make our products better and trying to move from building props in our garage to having a full production model. It is not an easy road or a cheap one and we greatly appreciate everyone who has helped us along the way by purchasing our current gen props. Had you received your poi, you would not have been disappointed with the build quality or its capabilities.

In the end you received a full refund and if the postal service ever comes through, a free set of the most advanced poi prop you can buy for the price.

<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
One last thing with regards to the manual. We are working on it.
Yes i can supply a list of our 30 modes, but we would like to have something that is a bit more visual.





In this video, Stevo cycles through most of the modes we have available this generation. The show stoppers use the exact same microchip as the ultrapoi and all the modes are the same. So let me explain some things.

The color strobe starting at 0:53 is completely different from the one at 1:20. The first one features random clumps of colors separated by random gaps, while the second is a traditional color strobe but the colors are also random.

From 2:00-4:00 that is the same mode. It starts off as a tight rainbow. Using the option button the rainbow can be stretched out 15 times. People are not used to this level of available options. We call it one mode with 15 different modulation options. But without pictures and other things explaining how the rainbow stretches out it is difficult to understand.

From 4:00-5:00 that is a completely different rainbow mode. The colors in it are random, an example of something a HyperLight cannot do. This mode can be stretched out just like the rainbow, but the visual effect is completely different.

From 6:35-7:05 that is the same mode. The magenta appears after pressing through the options. It is difficult to express this with just written words in a manual, which is why it is taking us time to make.

Here are some pics that we have taken so we can use them in our manual explaining these things:
1. Random strobe vs traditional strobe

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2. Tight rainbow vs stretched

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3. Random rainbow tight and stretched

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4. Red-Blue strobe vs red-blue with magenta fill

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EDITED_BY: *UltraPoi* (1293140588)

<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
I hope all these posts have helped to resolve any concerns/questions about our product. Please understand that we are just two brothers, not some factory in China. A lot of heart and effort goes into every set of poi we sell and some of the comments here may have left us a little defensive at times. Give us a chance to impress this community and change your mind about what you think LED props can do.

<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
As I said before, I'm not trying to convince anybody to not purchase them, I had even considered it myself. And as we all agree PVC is usually plenty strong, but if you look back my concern was not exactly with using PVC in general. It's with using PVC fittings from a hardware store, that you have no quality control over, then saying 2nd gen are made of polycarbonate but not even mentioning the PVC. And even if it is rare, sometimes you get a bad batch of PVC, and brand new fittings break.

I hope all goes well for you and your brother, it's no simple task starting a business; but his responses(which I see you or him one have edited to seem less brash), the misleading statements, and still the lack of information, aren't good selling points.

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
JaredW,
No worries. It just seemed alarmist when saying a material we are using can break and cut someone to the bone. Even polycarbonate can be a brittle material and result in sharp edges if broken. I still feel more than confident that our current cases are of the highest quality we can create for the time being. In the future we are actually trying to use a material more like tupperware for our next generation case, soft yet not easily broken.
I see that you are in Arlington. If you ever find yourself in Houston you are more than welcome to look us up and spin a pair of UltraPoi. I was hoping to be in Dallas for New years at the Ghostland show, but it doesn't look like it is going to happen.
You mentioned that you had thought about buying a pair, and if you wanted to come down here for a weekend and try before you buy, we'd appreciate a review from someone who might approach what we are doing with a bit more skepticism.

<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 23rd Dec 2010
Well it may seem 'alarmist', but it's the truth lol
Polycarbonate is less likely to break, and PVC cuts can be awful. So far I've not managed to cut myself with polycarbonate, but just for saying that I probably will in the near future. Just my luck.

I wouldn't mind giving them a trial run, next gen, but it's not likely to happen. I've left Texas a few months, soon to be leaving the country. If things go according to plan, it will be a long time before I come back.
Guess I should update my location.

Posted: 25th Dec 2010
Originally Posted By: *UltraPoi*First, Hyperlights are their own product. They cost more than twice as much as an ultrapoi and the batches are produced maybe once a year. They have their own feature sets which we are not competing with.
That's not strictly true. We're also a fledgling business and to date have only made one batch in the middle of 2010, but we're almost ready for batch 2 six months later ...and like you, we're ramping up production now.

They may cost twice as much as your prototypes but they're a more finished product for it as well (CNC precision machined parts etc).

Originally Posted By: *UltraPoi*In contrast to hyperlights we offer a product that costs half as much, features 30 set modes (some of which can be duplicated on hyperlights, and some that cannot)
From all the photo's I've seen, I would suggest the opposite is true. Hyperlights can easily do all of the sequences in the pictures and videos on your website and Flicker. If there's new stuff you've not posted yet then maybe there's some truth to your claims, but I'd be interested to see some photo's of the one's you think Hyperlights can't manage

Originally Posted By: *UltraPoi*Most of all we are not trying to replace hyperlights, we are only trying to fill what we think is a need for more advanced props in the community and we are making multiple products such as hoops, orbits, ect to fill that gap.
We welcome the competition and I definitely think there's room for more advanced props. As I said in a previous post, competition is most certainly good for all you consumers/spinners out there.

I really feel for the Utrapoi boys; we made plenty of prototypes which attracted a wealth of suggested improvements. I dare say the polycarb full production ones will look much better

Cake or Death?

Posted: 25th Dec 2010
well with competition comes improvement that all can benefit from
EDITED_BY: Midkiff (1293294963)

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

Posted: 25th Dec 2010
I was going to post this on Hyperlights, since that's where the original question was asked, but I figured I'd just put it here since this is where the most discussion seems to be happening.

Anyway, you should probably make some photos of all the different modes. I would think there are going to be a lot of people wanting to know.
Even though it won't be as impressive looking as a long duration photo, or a video, maybe do something like the pictures HoP does. Makes it easy to look at the patterns and know exactly which option to switch so you can try it out.

Posted: 25th Dec 2010
Well ignore that last post
I was just looking back at the first page and saw you had planned to put that in the manual.

Posted: 26th Dec 2010
We finally have a manual up for UltraPoi on our website.
www.ultrapoi.com

It is a bit long to post here.

With regards to HyperLights being able to duplicate all of our modes, I'm sorry to say that you can't. From my understanding Hyperlights can only perform preprogrammed sequences. Although it is amazing that your users can create their own sequences there are some things you definitely cannot do.

You cannot generate random colors. All of your modes follow set sequences. Many of our modes produce completely random colors with no identifiable sequence. I suppose you could create a sequence that is several thousand colors long to simulate this, but I'm not sure if there would be room for any other modes.

Originally Posted By: *HyperLightbut I'd be interested to see some photo's of the one's you think Hyperlights can't manage

The very first photo cannot be duplicated with hyperlights. The photo depicts random vibrant colors flashes separated by random length gaps.
It is not simply red, blue, green, black, yellow, aqua, black.

It is all based on equations that either randomly choose to display a color or a black space, and then if it is a color, the color is chosen at random. There is no identifiable sequence, the entire mode is based around random variables and you will never be able to take the same picture twice.

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Here is an example of a very simple red to blue fade and hold. But some of our sequences fade between completely random colors. Since you cannot choose a color at random and then fade to it from the current color you wouldn't be able to perform a fade like this if red and blue were chosen at random.

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<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 27th Dec 2010
Hey there, it's looking pretty damn pretty.

I've been having a play with the 3 Watt RGB LEDs and let's face it, it's hard to go wrong when you're kicking out that many lumens.

2011 could be the year of monster LED toys breaking through to a new level...

Posted: 27th Dec 2010
i think the pixel poi for china are better. they are available now and are completely programmable. though they are single color, I would not buy ultrapoi or ultra pixel poi because you cant program your own design like the made in china ones.

jeremy webber

Posted: 27th Dec 2010
Are you referring to these:-

https://www.alibaba.com/product/shinery-11923674-0/LED_Pixel_Poi_LED_Baton.html

If so then have you found out a price or where to buy them?

Incidentally, and kind of linking to another thread I'm in about building LED pois, I once made a 64 pixel single-colour POV display like this. But I built mine to be static, and hence the combination of _many_ ICs and lots of batteries would mean that it would be a serious weapon if swung. Oh, in case the "static" aspect has you pondering, it looked like a vertical line of slightly flickery LEDs until you glanced across it, whereupon the image would literally jump out into the air in front of you in a spooky fashion.

But life's too short for me to shoehorn that technology into a juggling ball, if there's a chance someone else can do it for me.

Posted: 27th Dec 2010
Two things I just found immediately after submitting my last post:-

1) https://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetai...51234A&KC=A

Now I don't understand patents to be honest, but here's one that seems to pretty much own this whole (yet to exist) market...


2) https://www.genxglow.com/forum/pixel-poi-t47957

A thread on another forum with info and pictures on those Chinese Pixel Poi.

Posted: 27th Dec 2010
So, the Chinese pixel poi look really cool, but unknown are price (except presumably considerably more than $200 since a single colour knock off is $200), durability nor if they'll ever be made available commercially.

IMO that puts them out of serious consideration until / unless things change.

Posted: 27th Dec 2010
I think our pixel poi produce pretty impressive results for not being programmable. We are trying to get the cost down to 40 for a pair of 11 LED modules. They have 12 modes and also make great orbits. Look at our orbit video in the first post for an example.


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We are also working on a larger full color version that produces amazing displays for around $150

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Lastly, we have a programmable 'rainbow' pixel poi that we are working on. It is in this video from about 0:35 - 1:30 and again from 2:30-3:30
It can hold 12 different sequences that you can design. And slowly cycles through each one. We are trying to price these around $150 as well.



If anyone is interested in any of these go to our website and contact us, we may be able to work something out.

<br />Ultra Poi, LLC<br />Member

Posted: 27th Dec 2010
I like the pixel poi. You should make some patterns that look like old 8 bit video games. Galaga poi! I'd love to see little Galaga aliens buzzing around