Forums > Social Discussion > Expert? What's your definition?
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the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I've recently been coming across people who claim to be experts, or accused of being.
A woman who has held her job role for only a year and doesn't know the full range of the materials yet was brought into a meeting as an "expert". She was aghast and horrified about it, and deferred to someone with 25 years experience, who wisely deferred to someone with more.
This, I admire.
There is a photographic exhibition going on in town about a historical and well documented art form (american burlesque). Instead of going to people who have been performing it for years, who know the history inside and out, they called on a local pin-up photographer to give the "expert" introduction to the exhibit. I know the man. I know the art. I know, as does he, that he doesn't know enough about the history of it to give a good speech on that topic. Yet, he took the job anyway.
This repulses me.
Then I have come across people who say "4/2 years ago I was introduced to....and now I am an expert". It's happened a few times and every time I think it is a crock of...well you get the idea.
To me, an expert is someone who knows the most on a subject. I do not think that a couple years will allow that...even of straight study. I do not think that taking photos of a similar nature will allow that, or being near an art, or even working in a specific field.
In fact, I truly and honestly believe there are very few experts in things in the world, and those people who are tend to be married to those things they are experts in with little time for anything else.
Professional in something? Absolutely. Knowledgable? Yes.
Expert...I have so many doubts when that word is thrown on the table.
What are your thoughts?
EDITED_BY: Pele (1195152036)
I've recently been coming across people who claim to be experts, or accused of being.
A woman who has held her job role for only a year and doesn't know the full range of the materials yet was brought into a meeting as an "expert". She was aghast and horrified about it, and deferred to someone with 25 years experience, who wisely deferred to someone with more.
This, I admire.
There is a photographic exhibition going on in town about a historical and well documented art form (american burlesque). Instead of going to people who have been performing it for years, who know the history inside and out, they called on a local pin-up photographer to give the "expert" introduction to the exhibit. I know the man. I know the art. I know, as does he, that he doesn't know enough about the history of it to give a good speech on that topic. Yet, he took the job anyway.
This repulses me.
Then I have come across people who say "4/2 years ago I was introduced to....and now I am an expert". It's happened a few times and every time I think it is a crock of...well you get the idea.
To me, an expert is someone who knows the most on a subject. I do not think that a couple years will allow that...even of straight study. I do not think that taking photos of a similar nature will allow that, or being near an art, or even working in a specific field.
In fact, I truly and honestly believe there are very few experts in things in the world, and those people who are tend to be married to those things they are experts in with little time for anything else.
Professional in something? Absolutely. Knowledgable? Yes.
Expert...I have so many doubts when that word is thrown on the table.
What are your thoughts?
EDITED_BY: Pele (1195152036)
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
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Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
I can relate to this.
I recently stumbled upon a performers website and it clearly stated that they had been in these arts for only a few years and that they excelled and considered them self an expert in these fields.
I recently also viewed a compilation video I'm sure that this performer would have been a winner but they were not so in my opinion I think that people big themselves up in an unjust manor.
I also feel that there is limitations in expertise with in these arts due to discovering new things, who knows still what will be discovered so with that I feel that any one calling them self an expert in these arts is unjust and brings us to professionalism... that would be the word I would use.. but certainly not an expert.
I can relate to this.
I recently stumbled upon a performers website and it clearly stated that they had been in these arts for only a few years and that they excelled and considered them self an expert in these fields.
I recently also viewed a compilation video I'm sure that this performer would have been a winner but they were not so in my opinion I think that people big themselves up in an unjust manor.
I also feel that there is limitations in expertise with in these arts due to discovering new things, who knows still what will be discovered so with that I feel that any one calling them self an expert in these arts is unjust and brings us to professionalism... that would be the word I would use.. but certainly not an expert.
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the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I find your point about the as yet undiscovered playing into the equation very interesting. Do you think applies to everything or only to these arts?
Like my example at work had to do with xerographics analysis, which I am sure there is still more being developed.
I've been trying to really think and I can't think of anything that this doesn't apply to.
I have to add, that with this comes my pet peeve of performers labelling themselves as "World's Only/Best/Greatest" etc. It is especially strong in sideshow and magic. I've seen several people who have had such "titles" called out by audience members. One of the things I make clear to my apprentices is that we should always assume people are not stupid and that someone at some point will be in our audience who knows/does the same if not more than us...and it can lead to disaster.
I find your point about the as yet undiscovered playing into the equation very interesting. Do you think applies to everything or only to these arts?
Like my example at work had to do with xerographics analysis, which I am sure there is still more being developed.
I've been trying to really think and I can't think of anything that this doesn't apply to.
I have to add, that with this comes my pet peeve of performers labelling themselves as "World's Only/Best/Greatest" etc. It is especially strong in sideshow and magic. I've seen several people who have had such "titles" called out by audience members. One of the things I make clear to my apprentices is that we should always assume people are not stupid and that someone at some point will be in our audience who knows/does the same if not more than us...and it can lead to disaster.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
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Lambretta Fanatic
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Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
Yes I do think that that rule would apply to any thing as long as there is room for improvement and un explored territories are discovered then in my eyes no one could call them self an expert.
Maybe genius, maybe professional, but I have to agree that to be an expert you would have to know the absolute all of some thing and in these arts that is nigh impossible at this point in time.
Yes I do think that that rule would apply to any thing as long as there is room for improvement and un explored territories are discovered then in my eyes no one could call them self an expert.
Maybe genius, maybe professional, but I have to agree that to be an expert you would have to know the absolute all of some thing and in these arts that is nigh impossible at this point in time.
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
this is very, very different to
what you are talking about is not expertise but absolute mastery...
I go to see my GP for his medical expertise... That doesn't mean that the field of medicine has advanced as far as possible - in fact such an idea is laughable.
While I totally agree with you that people big themselves up when it comes to their business/career and that it sucks... I think you'll find its called marketing... and its very much part of life in a late-capitalist society. Whether you're talking about film, fire arts, toilet paper or shower gel people try to make out that what they're doing is more than it really is in order to try and make money out of it.
Written by: oxford english dictionary
expert
1. One who is expert or has gained skill from experience.
2. One whose special knowledge or skill causes him to be regarded as an authority; a specialist. Also attrib., as in expert evidence, witness, etc.
this is very, very different to
Written by: PK
as there is room for improvement and un explored territories are discovered then in my eyes no one could call them self an expert
what you are talking about is not expertise but absolute mastery...
I go to see my GP for his medical expertise... That doesn't mean that the field of medicine has advanced as far as possible - in fact such an idea is laughable.
While I totally agree with you that people big themselves up when it comes to their business/career and that it sucks... I think you'll find its called marketing... and its very much part of life in a late-capitalist society. Whether you're talking about film, fire arts, toilet paper or shower gel people try to make out that what they're doing is more than it really is in order to try and make money out of it.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
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Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
An expert is someone from out of town, with a box of slides (powerpoint presentation) dressed in a white lab coat
This stuff happens all the time. I used to worry about it, but that’s life. What goes around comes around.
An expert is someone from out of town, with a box of slides (powerpoint presentation) dressed in a white lab coat
This stuff happens all the time. I used to worry about it, but that’s life. What goes around comes around.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Location: United Kingdom
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Posted:
In fact you raise a good point there.. and I have to agree with you and thank you for pointing that out to me.
As for medicine... that's another kettle of fish! maybe Doc could shed some light with his thoughts on that.
Written by: dreamWritten by: oxford english dictionary
expert
1. One who is expert or has gained skill from experience.
2. One whose special knowledge or skill causes him to be regarded as an authority; a specialist. Also attrib., as in expert evidence, witness, etc.
this is very, very different toWritten by: PK
as there is room for improvement and un explored territories are discovered then in my eyes no one could call them self an expert
what you are talking about is not expertise but absolute mastery...
I go to see my GP for his medical expertise... That doesn't mean that the field of medicine has advanced as far as possible - in fact such an idea is laughable.
While I totally agree with you that people big themselves up when it comes to their business/career and that it sucks... I think you'll find its called marketing... and its very much part of life in a late-capitalist society. Whether you're talking about film, fire arts, toilet paper or shower gel people try to make out that what they're doing is more than it really is in order to try and make money out of it.
In fact you raise a good point there.. and I have to agree with you and thank you for pointing that out to me.
As for medicine... that's another kettle of fish! maybe Doc could shed some light with his thoughts on that.
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sanguine
382 posts
Location: sur, USA
sanguine
382 posts
Location: sur, USA
Posted:
"The fool thinks he is wise; the wise man knows himself a fool."
-Antole France
"A wise man never knows all, only fools know everything."
- ?
"There is not one wise man in 20 that will praise himself."
-Shakespeare
In Pele's first example, the "expert" was wise enough to defer to someone more capable.
In the 2nd example, the person who asked the photographer, as they had more experience, but the photographer did not, even though a more knowedgeable person could have been located.
The thing is, we must impose a limit on ourselves as to what ceiling, or lengths, we are willing to go in order to find an "expert". If you are comfortable in admitting that the person beside you is more knowledgeable, then you are deferring to someone with more expertise.
But you should take all that is said with a grain of salt, as there are other specialists with slightly different perspectives. This is why you are always told to get a 2nd opinion from different doctors.
So if I were to ask Durbs about contact staff, he does have more expertise than I. But if he sends me to MCP to answer my queries, then he has deferred to someone with more expertise than he.
That would make Durbs both an expert (in my eyes) and wise.
I dont see a problem in someone claiming expertise in an area, AS LONG AS they are intelligent enough to admit also when they are the student.
oh, and best quote I found?
"He was a wise man, who invented beer."
-Plato
"The fool thinks he is wise; the wise man knows himself a fool."
-Antole France
"A wise man never knows all, only fools know everything."
- ?
"There is not one wise man in 20 that will praise himself."
-Shakespeare
In Pele's first example, the "expert" was wise enough to defer to someone more capable.
In the 2nd example, the person who asked the photographer, as they had more experience, but the photographer did not, even though a more knowedgeable person could have been located.
The thing is, we must impose a limit on ourselves as to what ceiling, or lengths, we are willing to go in order to find an "expert". If you are comfortable in admitting that the person beside you is more knowledgeable, then you are deferring to someone with more expertise.
But you should take all that is said with a grain of salt, as there are other specialists with slightly different perspectives. This is why you are always told to get a 2nd opinion from different doctors.
So if I were to ask Durbs about contact staff, he does have more expertise than I. But if he sends me to MCP to answer my queries, then he has deferred to someone with more expertise than he.
That would make Durbs both an expert (in my eyes) and wise.
I dont see a problem in someone claiming expertise in an area, AS LONG AS they are intelligent enough to admit also when they are the student.
oh, and best quote I found?
"He was a wise man, who invented beer."
-Plato
"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow
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Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
how about using the term adept? a scale what kind of order would you put people in would it be a ladder or say a pyramid?
Master
Expert
Adept
experienced
practiced
beginner
novice
I have to agree with Dream, what kind of professional performer would put on a website "I've been performing for 3 years and am considered at best mediocre"?
They may not be the best but they must have some modicum of knowledge that to a laymen seems "expert". If the performer you mentioned PK said the same thing on a forum like this. well then I would agree with you but in many cases brutal honesty doesn't put food on the table.
and what about perspective? I like that quote about a doctors expertise. an expert in medicine? what field there are so many, much like manipulation.
would you compare an expert GP (Strenuously avoided use of " " ) to a very good all round manipulator? say an adept at at many things, and an expert in heart bypass surgery to a single skilled master of juggling/spinning?
To be honest it's a personal view of expert - cambridge dictionary defines as thus:
expert
noun [C]
a person with a high level of knowledge or skill; a specialist:
a gardening/medical expert
My mother is an expert at dress-making (= she does it very well).
Note the definition - a persons mum does something very well. isn't an expert someone who has expertise?
Expertise is defined (by cambridge) as a high level of knowledge or skill. Could a person maybe not the best at manipulating still be an expert based on their knowledge? background history, science of spinning, knowledge of moves and how they are done even if they are unable to do them themselves.
I do sometimes think we don't have enough words I mean how do experts rate experts? maybe someone should come up with new words with better meanings to differentiate the upper levels of knowledge and skill. we on here are all far more expert than people who have no ability at spinning at all. But I have to admit there is thing that IS need to be any kind of expert TIME you have to put the effort in.
how about using the term adept? a scale what kind of order would you put people in would it be a ladder or say a pyramid?
Master
Expert
Adept
experienced
practiced
beginner
novice
I have to agree with Dream, what kind of professional performer would put on a website "I've been performing for 3 years and am considered at best mediocre"?
They may not be the best but they must have some modicum of knowledge that to a laymen seems "expert". If the performer you mentioned PK said the same thing on a forum like this. well then I would agree with you but in many cases brutal honesty doesn't put food on the table.
and what about perspective? I like that quote about a doctors expertise. an expert in medicine? what field there are so many, much like manipulation.
would you compare an expert GP (Strenuously avoided use of " "
) to a very good all round manipulator? say an adept at at many things, and an expert in heart bypass surgery to a single skilled master of juggling/spinning?To be honest it's a personal view of expert - cambridge dictionary defines as thus:
expert
noun [C]
a person with a high level of knowledge or skill; a specialist:
a gardening/medical expert
My mother is an expert at dress-making (= she does it very well).
Note the definition - a persons mum does something very well. isn't an expert someone who has expertise?
Expertise is defined (by cambridge) as a high level of knowledge or skill. Could a person maybe not the best at manipulating still be an expert based on their knowledge? background history, science of spinning, knowledge of moves and how they are done even if they are unable to do them themselves.
I do sometimes think we don't have enough words
I mean how do experts rate experts? maybe someone should come up with new words with better meanings to differentiate the upper levels of knowledge and skill. we on here are all far more expert than people who have no ability at spinning at all. But I have to admit there is thing that IS need to be any kind of expert TIME you have to put the effort in. A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
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Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
Nice response Mynci,
I have some thing to add though here... so excuse me if I'm making too many posts.
So as for the discussion going down the Performers Path, I used to look at a lot of people on HoP and thought highly of them (and still do), they would have been pioneers of hyperloops, airwraps... and wow even long arm stuff including flowers, and maybe I'd have called those people experts (maybe not the right word but hey)... I see some left, walked away from HoP, I see others that have taken other ventures and do not seem to be pioneering in poi any more, that has been taken over by other people these days.
Should I still consider those old pioneers "experts"? ...would that be justified?, or would they no longer be an expert even though they once were in the eyes of some?.
*edit*
I emphasise this only because there are a lot of us that remember the times when some of even the most basic poi moves were once new and we used to look up to the people for sharing their ideas and now are probably forgotten souls. but I still relate to them and hold them highly in my thoughts and praises.
EDITED_BY: PK_ (1195161909)
Nice response Mynci,
I have some thing to add though here... so excuse me if I'm making too many posts.
So as for the discussion going down the Performers Path, I used to look at a lot of people on HoP and thought highly of them (and still do), they would have been pioneers of hyperloops, airwraps... and wow even long arm stuff including flowers, and maybe I'd have called those people experts (maybe not the right word but hey)... I see some left, walked away from HoP, I see others that have taken other ventures and do not seem to be pioneering in poi any more, that has been taken over by other people these days.
Should I still consider those old pioneers "experts"? ...would that be justified?, or would they no longer be an expert even though they once were in the eyes of some?.
*edit*
I emphasise this only because there are a lot of us that remember the times when some of even the most basic poi moves were once new and we used to look up to the people for sharing their ideas and now are probably forgotten souls.
but I still relate to them and hold them highly in my thoughts and praises.EDITED_BY: PK_ (1195161909)
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Could you not have expertise= a high level of knowledge or skill and not be an expert= a specialist (which is how I have always viewed and learned both as)?
I don't go to a GP as an expert. He isn't one. He is a knowledgable physician (we hope) and if something is glaringly wrong, he will point us to an "expert" (I say we hope because we had a gp who did not do this but rather told PWB he did not have cancer, when he in fact did. Luckily we sought a 2nd opinion).
Marketing is one thing. I market tonnes. I work with other performers who market. I've been doing this for over 10 years and do just fine without that type of wording. In fact, in business marketting it is something they tell you to absolutely avoid, saying you are the best...because it opens the door for more criticism than needed. Saying you are "the one, the only" instead of "the world's only" is far less disputable. Likewise, saying you are an expert also opens the door for it while saying that you are recognized for knowledge and skill, that you are concidered an authority (not an expert) is far more acceptable. Any projects that were presented with questionable language were marked down and set up to be ripped apart. To me it seems that anyone who knows marketting should know that.
And if you lived through the whole Coke vs Pepsi legal crap, it also made the news on acceptable marketting wording however many years ago that was.
Could you not have expertise= a high level of knowledge or skill and not be an expert= a specialist (which is how I have always viewed and learned both as)?
I don't go to a GP as an expert. He isn't one. He is a knowledgable physician (we hope) and if something is glaringly wrong, he will point us to an "expert" (I say we hope because we had a gp who did not do this but rather told PWB he did not have cancer, when he in fact did. Luckily we sought a 2nd opinion).
Marketing is one thing. I market tonnes. I work with other performers who market. I've been doing this for over 10 years and do just fine without that type of wording. In fact, in business marketting it is something they tell you to absolutely avoid, saying you are the best...because it opens the door for more criticism than needed. Saying you are "the one, the only" instead of "the world's only" is far less disputable. Likewise, saying you are an expert also opens the door for it while saying that you are recognized for knowledge and skill, that you are concidered an authority (not an expert) is far more acceptable. Any projects that were presented with questionable language were marked down and set up to be ripped apart. To me it seems that anyone who knows marketting should know that.
And if you lived through the whole Coke vs Pepsi legal crap, it also made the news on acceptable marketting wording however many years ago that was.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
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Member
38 posts
Location: USA
Member
38 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
I think putting time restraints on the knowledge one can hold is a bit unrealistic. As an example I used to work in a photo lab. After two and a half years I considered myself an expert of the machinery I used. Even the senior technician would ask me for advice on a certain problem.
It's not the time spent working with something that makes you an expert, it's the understanding and knowledge one has on it. This does have some relevance to time, but is ultimately up to the individual's ability to become aquainted to and knowledgeable the subject.
I think putting time restraints on the knowledge one can hold is a bit unrealistic. As an example I used to work in a photo lab. After two and a half years I considered myself an expert of the machinery I used. Even the senior technician would ask me for advice on a certain problem.
It's not the time spent working with something that makes you an expert, it's the understanding and knowledge one has on it. This does have some relevance to time, but is ultimately up to the individual's ability to become aquainted to and knowledgeable the subject.
Who wants to see a monkey on fire?
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Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
I think expert is a matter of perspective. If you have greater knowledge / ability / understanding than someone your have more expertise and as such are more of an expert. I'm pretty sure the word comes from exper-ience and originally from the latin word peritus which means skilled, skillful or expert.. Maybe the more experience you have perhaps the more you are of an expert.
I blame language for being too loose. singular word definitions of anything are a poor choice, no 1 word can hold the meaning of all the effort people put in to some things. I suppose that is why there are so many words, so they can be grouped together to get a meaning across,
I think expert is a matter of perspective. If you have greater knowledge / ability / understanding than someone your have more expertise and as such are more of an expert. I'm pretty sure the word comes from exper-ience and originally from the latin word peritus which means skilled, skillful or expert.. Maybe the more experience you have perhaps the more you are of an expert.
I blame language for being too loose. singular word definitions of anything are a poor choice, no 1 word can hold the meaning of all the effort people put in to some things. I suppose that is why there are so many words, so they can be grouped together to get a meaning across,
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
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the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I like that last bit especially Mynci.
Thank you
I like that last bit especially Mynci.
Thank you
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
member
53 posts
53 posts
Posted:
I know its not performance related...but a real bug bare in my job is when customers come to me and say "I've been drinking wine for 40 years, I don't think there is anything you can tell me."
I admit I am a mere snip of a girl. But..I have been able to drink for 6 years and the last 4 1/2 have been spent drinking wine.
2 1/2 of these were drinking a cheap well know rose that can be bought anywhere...nothing else.
2 years at my current job I have begun drinking reds and whites. I have also done two international courses in wine and spirit education. I am not an expert, but my question is this 37 1/2 years later following my original course, would I be more of an expert in wine than I am at present?
I know its not performance related...but a real bug bare in my job is when customers come to me and say "I've been drinking wine for 40 years, I don't think there is anything you can tell me."
I admit I am a mere snip of a girl. But..I have been able to drink for 6 years and the last 4 1/2 have been spent drinking wine.
2 1/2 of these were drinking a cheap well know rose that can be bought anywhere...nothing else.
2 years at my current job I have begun drinking reds and whites. I have also done two international courses in wine and spirit education. I am not an expert, but my question is this 37 1/2 years later following my original course, would I be more of an expert in wine than I am at present?
If a tree falls in a forest with no one to witness it...do the other trees laugh?
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sanguine
382 posts
Location: sur, USA
sanguine
382 posts
Location: sur, USA
Posted:
I like how Mynci has provided a hierachy of language. The words do exist. But much of grammar has been abbreviated and generalized. Like there is a subtle difference between a novice and a beginner, but we have come to see them as synonymous.
I agree that these words are grouped together to help convey meaning, but so often these words fall into disuse and become archaic to the point that we just use the most broad and convenient word to describe a whole range of things. *thinks about the thread "Pro vs. Amateur".
I mean, if you are training, or taking a course in something, you gain practice, which gives you experience, which leads to a modicum of expertise in learning to master skills that would allow you to become more adept in your field of study until you have reached a level of expertise that may place you in the category of expert.
Im just spouting poo because I love language.
All those words just to repeat what Mynci said more concisely. 
Written by: Mynci
Master
Expert
Adept
experienced
practiced
beginner
novice
I like how Mynci has provided a hierachy of language. The words do exist. But much of grammar has been abbreviated and generalized. Like there is a subtle difference between a novice and a beginner, but we have come to see them as synonymous.
I agree that these words are grouped together to help convey meaning, but so often these words fall into disuse and become archaic to the point that we just use the most broad and convenient word to describe a whole range of things. *thinks about the thread "Pro vs. Amateur".
I mean, if you are training, or taking a course in something, you gain practice, which gives you experience, which leads to a modicum of expertise in learning to master skills that would allow you to become more adept in your field of study until you have reached a level of expertise that may place you in the category of expert.
Im just spouting poo because I love language.
All those words just to repeat what Mynci said more concisely. "to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow
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grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
Posted:
at our local juggling club i get called the expert poi-er and staffer all the time, even when we are out doing community events. i hate it. i am not the expert i am just the only one who does staff and the one that can do the most varied amount of poi moves. i then have the problem of people coming up to me and thinking i know all there is to know. its embarrasing as hell as i don't.
on the other hand i have over 25 years of performing experiance,(not in circus skills) but would never call myself an expert, infact i hate the term expert and feel its more of an accadmic term more than anything. For the term expert to sit with me that person would of had to gone through and experianced all aspects of something and gone through all of the possible facts from every point of view for a large number of years. (not sure how many though)
i just don't like the word expert though
at our local juggling club i get called the expert poi-er and staffer all the time, even when we are out doing community events. i hate it. i am not the expert i am just the only one who does staff and the one that can do the most varied amount of poi moves. i then have the problem of people coming up to me and thinking i know all there is to know. its embarrasing as hell as i don't.
on the other hand i have over 25 years of performing experiance,(not in circus skills) but would never call myself an expert, infact i hate the term expert and feel its more of an accadmic term more than anything. For the term expert to sit with me that person would of had to gone through and experianced all aspects of something and gone through all of the possible facts from every point of view for a large number of years. (not sure how many though)
i just don't like the word expert though
Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
Are you a sommelier?
Written by: Mako
I know its not performance related...but a real bug bare in my job is when customers come to me and say "I've been drinking wine for 40 years, I don't think there is anything you can tell me."
I admit I am a mere snip of a girl. But..I have been able to drink for 6 years and the last 4 1/2 have been spent drinking wine.
2 1/2 of these were drinking a cheap well know rose that can be bought anywhere...nothing else.
2 years at my current job I have begun drinking reds and whites. I have also done two international courses in wine and spirit education. I am not an expert, but my question is this 37 1/2 years later following my original course, would I be more of an expert in wine than I am at present?
Are you a sommelier?
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
So either one is an expert or a specialist... or both?
To me, a doctor is an expert (in medicine) as he has studied the subject. He knows more about medicine than (for say) my grandmother did. A GP will then (after making a first (terrible) diagnosis) direct one to a specialist (who himself is an expert of experts).
People refer to me as an "expert" in firetoy-manipulation, which I am to them, more so than to myself (especially when next to Gerome or Andy). As it has been said before: it's always a matter of perspective.
If one gets a job offered, outside his specialized field (like the photographers example you mentioned earlier) and doesn't decline it for whatever reason, he might be just hungry or desperate... IMHO it's in the responsibility of those who offer the job to shop for the best person available.
Maybe those who are asked too much money or whatever - I personally would not blame anyone for NOT turning down a job. Maybe he won't get hired twice...
You mentioned another example of (a) terrible fireperformer(s) daring to (miserably) perform on stage. Pele, this is in the responsibility of those who organize the show. If you really don't like it and have the ideal that these freaks ruin fireperformancers reputation, then walk up to the organizers and tell them, write a critique to the local paper, or whatever. Blaming someone for NOT declining a job and therefore NOT refusing money is inadequate (IMHO), IF you know all of their backgrounds and financial situations it *might* be a different story.
Someone advertising himself as an expert when clearly (to you) he's not is falling under the same regime. It's unethical, but then again - it might be a huge part of capitalism to wrongfully advertise ones own skills.
I stumbled into a local bar two days ago and saw an advert of a guy, offering basic and advanced (fire) nun-chakku workshops (in which he is very good, but not a master) - on the same flyer he's offering basic and advanced poi lessons (after having taken a weeks workshop with Gerome). At first I was stunned and somehow negatively affected. In fact he placed his ad in one of the most frequented bars in the area.
Now, would I tell him not to? No. Would I place my own ad next to it? Yes. Would I call myself experienced enough to provide tuition (on the same ad as Gerome)? Yes. Would I call myself an "expert"? No.
Even in fireperformance there are experts and specialists (which are experts of experts), Yuta is an expert AND a specialist (flowers). So is Ronan (stalls), Gerome (isolations), Bryan (curved staff), Andy (well different galaxy altogether) and many many countless others. Personally I have not met a single one who would call himself a "master".
IMHO all these titles are given, not taken - you know what I mean?
Language is confusing.
Written by: Pele
(...) expert= a specialist (...)
I don't go to a GP as an expert. He isn't one. He is a knowledgable physician (we hope) and if something is glaringly wrong, he will point us to an "expert"
So either one is an expert or a specialist... or both?
To me, a doctor is an expert (in medicine) as he has studied the subject. He knows more about medicine than (for say) my grandmother did. A GP will then (after making a first (terrible) diagnosis) direct one to a specialist (who himself is an expert of experts).
People refer to me as an "expert" in firetoy-manipulation, which I am to them, more so than to myself (especially when next to Gerome or Andy). As it has been said before: it's always a matter of perspective.
If one gets a job offered, outside his specialized field (like the photographers example you mentioned earlier) and doesn't decline it for whatever reason, he might be just hungry or desperate... IMHO it's in the responsibility of those who offer the job to shop for the best person available.
Maybe those who are asked too much money or whatever - I personally would not blame anyone for NOT turning down a job. Maybe he won't get hired twice...
You mentioned another example of (a) terrible fireperformer(s) daring to (miserably) perform on stage. Pele, this is in the responsibility of those who organize the show. If you really don't like it and have the ideal that these freaks ruin fireperformancers reputation, then walk up to the organizers and tell them, write a critique to the local paper, or whatever. Blaming someone for NOT declining a job and therefore NOT refusing money is inadequate (IMHO), IF you know all of their backgrounds and financial situations it *might* be a different story.
Someone advertising himself as an expert when clearly (to you) he's not is falling under the same regime. It's unethical, but then again - it might be a huge part of capitalism to wrongfully advertise ones own skills.
I stumbled into a local bar two days ago and saw an advert of a guy, offering basic and advanced (fire) nun-chakku workshops (in which he is very good, but not a master) - on the same flyer he's offering basic and advanced poi lessons (after having taken a weeks workshop with Gerome). At first I was stunned and somehow negatively affected. In fact he placed his ad in one of the most frequented bars in the area.
Now, would I tell him not to? No. Would I place my own ad next to it? Yes. Would I call myself experienced enough to provide tuition (on the same ad as Gerome)? Yes. Would I call myself an "expert"? No.
Even in fireperformance there are experts and specialists (which are experts of experts), Yuta is an expert AND a specialist (flowers). So is Ronan (stalls), Gerome (isolations), Bryan (curved staff), Andy (well different galaxy altogether) and many many countless others. Personally I have not met a single one who would call himself a "master".
IMHO all these titles are given, not taken - you know what I mean?
Language is confusing.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
What I find stupid and kinda sickening, is people that stay on HoP long after their passion for spinning has cooled. Then they expect respect just because they learned before everyone else? Any noob poi spinner could get to a so called 'jedi' level in a few months nowadays. So now these 'elder' spinners with crappy skills, just sit on HoP with nothing better to do than get jealous and irate with the people that continued to practise, while they were off doing other things. I mean, it's their choice to decide what they want to do in their life, so they can choose to want to be good at poi and practise it, or they can choose to stay at a lesser level and not practise.
These Jedi had all the advantages you could want, namely, doing it before anybody else was, they could explore entirely undiscovered areas, and pass on the benefits of their learning to little noobs spinners. Mostly was they did thou was get to a certain level and decide they were good enough, and stopped practising, or maybe they decided there was nothing left to learn and never bothered to explore new movements.
I don't see why I should put up with some self-pitying moaning from these 'jedi' about the people who've done more practise and gotten better than them thou.
I've already stated what it takes to be an expert. If you don't want to put in the effort, don't complain about people who do.
https://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/03/how_to_be_an_ex.html
also the Scientific America site is pretty badly down right now, so I won't link that article.
We mostly all started as adults learning this stuff, so there is no excuses. No talent for it. Either you put in the practise time, or you didn't. Either you concentrated and thought about what you were doing, or you didn't. Either you actively tried to find new avenues to explore and mined away at the coalface of new movements, or you didn't. And that's the difference between an expert and an amateur.
What I find stupid and kinda sickening, is people that stay on HoP long after their passion for spinning has cooled. Then they expect respect just because they learned before everyone else? Any noob poi spinner could get to a so called 'jedi' level in a few months nowadays. So now these 'elder' spinners with crappy skills, just sit on HoP with nothing better to do than get jealous and irate with the people that continued to practise, while they were off doing other things. I mean, it's their choice to decide what they want to do in their life, so they can choose to want to be good at poi and practise it, or they can choose to stay at a lesser level and not practise.
These Jedi had all the advantages you could want, namely, doing it before anybody else was, they could explore entirely undiscovered areas, and pass on the benefits of their learning to little noobs spinners. Mostly was they did thou was get to a certain level and decide they were good enough, and stopped practising, or maybe they decided there was nothing left to learn and never bothered to explore new movements.
I don't see why I should put up with some self-pitying moaning from these 'jedi' about the people who've done more practise and gotten better than them thou.
I've already stated what it takes to be an expert. If you don't want to put in the effort, don't complain about people who do.
https://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/03/how_to_be_an_ex.html
also the Scientific America site is pretty badly down right now, so I won't link that article.
We mostly all started as adults learning this stuff, so there is no excuses. No talent for it. Either you put in the practise time, or you didn't. Either you concentrated and thought about what you were doing, or you didn't. Either you actively tried to find new avenues to explore and mined away at the coalface of new movements, or you didn't. And that's the difference between an expert and an amateur.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
Meg just agreed with me in discussions
but she does have a point it's all about learning curves and dedication, so much so I went out after posting that and spent a good 90 minutes in the freezing cold and dark practicing my juggling
Written by: Mynci
. But I have to admit there is 1 thing that IS need to be any kind of expert TIME you have to put the effort in.
Meg just agreed with me in discussions but she does have a point it's all about learning curves and dedication, so much so I went out after posting that and spent a good 90 minutes in the freezing cold and dark practicing my juggling
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
*High five!*
Written by: Mynci
...so I went out after posting that and spent a good 90 minutes in the freezing cold and dark practicing my juggling
*High five!*
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
great artical meg
great artical meg
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
I want Mako's job
I want Mako's job
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Firetom, I am very confused. I didn't bring up any fire performers as an example, good or bad.
And I don't think it is the responsibility of the venue completely. Booking agents know what they are told, what is advertised to them. They can not possibly go out and research every single genre of performing they will be bringing in to know what is good and what is not.
Which is why I don't remain silent on such things.
I have far more respect for someone who says "You know, I know someone who will do that better for you." than someone who will accept a job without knowing crap about it. I've done it, and while I even admit my professional standards are very high, I do expect others to as well.
In the end it also earns a person respect from the ed's and will get them hired in their area at a later date. It's happened to me and others I know.
Better than saying you're "an expert" and not being.
Mako, following an original course does not mean that you will drink crap wine for 40 years. People grow and evolve. Many do opt to educate themselves, either formally or informally. I do hope after 40 years you would be much more educated than where you are now, but without knowing their background, it's hard to tell.
Anyone can say they have been doing something for xxxx amount of years but time does not make experts. I do agree with you there. How many people have you come across who take the time to educate themselves in the history and evolution of their particular tool/dance/etc?
Many people will take a class, twirl a stick, read something on the internet or just add water and they are instant experts..yes.
Length of time is questionable in creating an expert in my eyes. I don't think anyone can be an expert in a handful of years, in anything. You can live and breathe something for 5 years and still not know much about it. But I also fully acknowledge that spending a lifetime doing something offhandedly also does not make an expert.
I think expert is more about the intensity which you persue your knowledge of something, and while time is a factor, it is not the deciding one. Hmm...I hadn't thought of that before now.
What I am understanding is that people are calling anyone who knows more than them an expert. Is that incorrect? If so, I don't agree with that at all. I know more than my bosses about what I do at work. I can fix things and do things they can not but I am not even close to being an expert. At that point, I slip to being knowledgable and if they so desire, a teacher. I think there is a huge difference between being knowledgable and being an expert.
Yes, I do agree this is subjective.
MCP, this isn't about expert vs. amatuer. Please don't make it such. I've worked and met with many "jedi" spinners who didn't even know that what they were doing was based in an art from NZ, or that it was called poi, etc. They were skilled, as are many, but not experts. Making money at something, being "professional" and having a higher skill set does not make one an expert if you do not have the knowledge to back it up.
I also have a side question for everyone. Once you achieve your "expertise" do you think that it is alright for someone to sit on their laurels. How many times have you seen an "expert" not progress? Is it an ultimate goal or part of a process?
Personally I think it is evolutionary.
Also, do you find that people who label themselves experts have certain...attitudes of superiority? Are they warrented?
By the definitions put out here in this thread, I work with a couple people who I would concider experts in color dynamics in xerographics. The stuff they know blows my mind but they do not concider themselves experts. They are constantly learning and very humble.
However, I know a magician who calls himself an "expert" but he applies his "expertise" by belittling others instead of just learning and sharing more of his craft and focussing on that (and yes, audiences have noticed).
So, going down a more psych road, do you think that certain personalities are drawn to the whole "expert" label?
Also, is "expert" genre based? In speaking of the dr. example. I do not concider a GP to be an expert. There are lots more where that one came from. However, if I go to a cardiologist, then I concider him more of an expert (though still may waiver in that). Going down the art road...is Michael Moschen an expert or a pioneer (which I think PK eluded to)? Are they exclusive?
Is, say, Stephen King or JK Rowling experts in their genre but maybe not in writing on the whole?
I find it all very interesting.
Though in the end I am more prone to agree with Gothfrogette in the fact that I really do hate the word as it just seems so subjective that it is pointless.
Firetom, I am very confused. I didn't bring up any fire performers as an example, good or bad.
And I don't think it is the responsibility of the venue completely. Booking agents know what they are told, what is advertised to them. They can not possibly go out and research every single genre of performing they will be bringing in to know what is good and what is not.
Which is why I don't remain silent on such things.
I have far more respect for someone who says "You know, I know someone who will do that better for you." than someone who will accept a job without knowing crap about it. I've done it, and while I even admit my professional standards are very high, I do expect others to as well.
In the end it also earns a person respect from the ed's and will get them hired in their area at a later date. It's happened to me and others I know.
Better than saying you're "an expert" and not being.
Mako, following an original course does not mean that you will drink crap wine for 40 years. People grow and evolve. Many do opt to educate themselves, either formally or informally. I do hope after 40 years you would be much more educated than where you are now, but without knowing their background, it's hard to tell.
Anyone can say they have been doing something for xxxx amount of years but time does not make experts. I do agree with you there. How many people have you come across who take the time to educate themselves in the history and evolution of their particular tool/dance/etc?
Many people will take a class, twirl a stick, read something on the internet or just add water and they are instant experts..yes.
Length of time is questionable in creating an expert in my eyes. I don't think anyone can be an expert in a handful of years, in anything. You can live and breathe something for 5 years and still not know much about it. But I also fully acknowledge that spending a lifetime doing something offhandedly also does not make an expert.
I think expert is more about the intensity which you persue your knowledge of something, and while time is a factor, it is not the deciding one. Hmm...I hadn't thought of that before now.
What I am understanding is that people are calling anyone who knows more than them an expert. Is that incorrect? If so, I don't agree with that at all. I know more than my bosses about what I do at work. I can fix things and do things they can not but I am not even close to being an expert. At that point, I slip to being knowledgable and if they so desire, a teacher. I think there is a huge difference between being knowledgable and being an expert.
Yes, I do agree this is subjective.
MCP, this isn't about expert vs. amatuer. Please don't make it such. I've worked and met with many "jedi" spinners who didn't even know that what they were doing was based in an art from NZ, or that it was called poi, etc. They were skilled, as are many, but not experts. Making money at something, being "professional" and having a higher skill set does not make one an expert if you do not have the knowledge to back it up.
I also have a side question for everyone. Once you achieve your "expertise" do you think that it is alright for someone to sit on their laurels. How many times have you seen an "expert" not progress? Is it an ultimate goal or part of a process?
Personally I think it is evolutionary.
Also, do you find that people who label themselves experts have certain...attitudes of superiority? Are they warrented?
By the definitions put out here in this thread, I work with a couple people who I would concider experts in color dynamics in xerographics. The stuff they know blows my mind but they do not concider themselves experts. They are constantly learning and very humble.
However, I know a magician who calls himself an "expert" but he applies his "expertise" by belittling others instead of just learning and sharing more of his craft and focussing on that (and yes, audiences have noticed).
So, going down a more psych road, do you think that certain personalities are drawn to the whole "expert" label?
Also, is "expert" genre based? In speaking of the dr. example. I do not concider a GP to be an expert. There are lots more where that one came from. However, if I go to a cardiologist, then I concider him more of an expert (though still may waiver in that). Going down the art road...is Michael Moschen an expert or a pioneer (which I think PK eluded to)? Are they exclusive?
Is, say, Stephen King or JK Rowling experts in their genre but maybe not in writing on the whole?
I find it all very interesting.
Though in the end I am more prone to agree with Gothfrogette in the fact that I really do hate the word as it just seems so subjective that it is pointless.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
https://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?article...r=1&catID=2
the sci am article. 'bout chess. Applies to all.
https://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?article...r=1&catID=2
the sci am article. 'bout chess. Applies to all.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Thanks mcp...interesting read. Will have to digest it more later when not at work.
Thanks mcp...interesting read. Will have to digest it more later when not at work.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
Posted:
i wouldn't class a GP as an expert either, have never met one that would come close.
MCP, maybe i missed the whole people complaining and being jealous about people who are better than them or your reading into things, am not sure.
this whole expert has had me thinking all day and i still don't like the term its far too arbitrary to pin it down to one thing, which means i won't.
although the term when in use does denote someone who has experianced every thing there is to experiance about that subject. so can anyone really be an expert or just have more experiance than some?
i wouldn't class a GP as an expert either, have never met one that would come close.
MCP, maybe i missed the whole people complaining and being jealous about people who are better than them or your reading into things, am not sure.
this whole expert has had me thinking all day and i still don't like the term its far too arbitrary to pin it down to one thing, which means i won't.
although the term when in use does denote someone who has experianced every thing there is to experiance about that subject. so can anyone really be an expert or just have more experiance than some?
Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
experts in that sence are judged by thier peers....
T
experts in that sence are judged by thier peers....
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
member
37 posts
37 posts
Posted:
Post deleted by RicheeII
Post deleted by RicheeII
BINARY DIVISION
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
There was a very good documentary on the other night about a woman that was taught Chess from a very early age that became the first ever woman chess master.
But what was interesting was a little test that they gave her to do.
She was shown a glimpse of a chess board with 20+ pieces on it and had to remake that same set up in front of her on her board.. she did it because the pieces were placed in chess patterns, but when she had to try it again with a set up made by a non chess player, the pieces were in no particular order... she couldn't do it and gave up.
So what does that tell us?.
On another note I don't think that this thread is about whom to respect.
There was a very good documentary on the other night about a woman that was taught Chess from a very early age that became the first ever woman chess master.
But what was interesting was a little test that they gave her to do.
She was shown a glimpse of a chess board with 20+ pieces on it and had to remake that same set up in front of her on her board.. she did it because the pieces were placed in chess patterns, but when she had to try it again with a set up made by a non chess player, the pieces were in no particular order... she couldn't do it and gave up.
So what does that tell us?.
On another note I don't think that this thread is about whom to respect.
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- Forums > Expert? What's your definition? [76 replies]
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