Forums > Social Discussion > banned from the USA, for teaching poi workshops?
Login/Join to ParticipateSAPPHIRE Member
enthusiast
272 posts
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
enthusiast
272 posts
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posted:
Some of you may know that I was banned from the USA a couple years back for teaching poi workshops without a work visa (and for lying about my reasons for entering the USA).
I posted the explanation on HOP and on my blog afterwards, but then removed them on the advice of a lawyer. I've now put the info on my webiste again:
See America's #1 poi outlaw
Some people have expressed curiosity, so there you go.
It was hard at the time and a big financial blow to the head, but I'm now happily exploring the rest of the world
n
Some of you may know that I was banned from the USA a couple years back for teaching poi workshops without a work visa (and for lying about my reasons for entering the USA).
I posted the explanation on HOP and on my blog afterwards, but then removed them on the advice of a lawyer. I've now put the info on my webiste again:
See America's #1 poi outlaw
Some people have expressed curiosity, so there you go.
It was hard at the time and a big financial blow to the head, but I'm now happily exploring the rest of the world
n
"They're interdimensional fractal intelligences. That's why they wear funny shoes."
SILVER Member
old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...
old hand
853 posts
Location: Behind you...
Posted:
Wow, I was going to post something else here, but now it seems irrelevant.
I don't think you sounded agressive Jeff. I'm not sure how agression got read into just 3 sentences that you wrote, plus your use of
smileys further down the thread.
Wow, I was going to post something else here, but now it seems irrelevant.
I don't think you sounded agressive Jeff. I'm not sure how agression got read into just 3 sentences that you wrote, plus your use of
smileys further down the thread. Idolized by Aurinoko
Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....
Bob Dylan
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Why are you attacking me in a thread I'm not even involved in?
You OK today?
Written by: mcp
If you read a post by NYC you don't assume it's going to be light and fluffy, you assume it's going to be sarcastic or whiney. Or both.
Why are you attacking me in a thread I'm not even involved in?
You OK today?
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
so what you're saying is 'i think lying is bad'?
blimey, i really didn't see that side of it.
even when reading through the consequences that nick had to bear after admitting his lie to border control, i didn't even begin to consider that those consequences could be linked to his initial choice to lie about his plans while in the country.
thanks for your insight there jeff.
cole. x
Written by: jeff(fake)
I think immigration are unjust in the restriction on small artists, but I still think that in general it isn't right not to tell the truth on official matters. It makes it harder in the future to argue for changes to the law. I don't mean to rub his face in it, but it is something I feel strongly about.
so what you're saying is 'i think lying is bad'?
blimey, i really didn't see that side of it.
even when reading through the consequences that nick had to bear after admitting his lie to border control, i didn't even begin to consider that those consequences could be linked to his initial choice to lie about his plans while in the country.
thanks for your insight there jeff.
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
Cole, I think that's a bit unnecessary. Given that the initial title of this thread is "Banned from the USA for teaching poi workshops?", and not "Banned from the USA for getting caught out lying to immigration after already being turned away once" it's fair enough to make a point that that's what happened.
Maybe it did sound like rubbing Nick's face in it, and yes, he has realised it wasn't the best of ideas, but still... if the title's "Banned for teaching poi" and not "Careful when going to the US to teach poi", Jeff does have a point in stating that lying IS bad and if immigration catches you doing it they WILL react in whatever way laws tell them to.
Cole, I think that's a bit unnecessary. Given that the initial title of this thread is "Banned from the USA for teaching poi workshops?", and not "Banned from the USA for getting caught out lying to immigration after already being turned away once" it's fair enough to make a point that that's what happened.
Maybe it did sound like rubbing Nick's face in it, and yes, he has realised it wasn't the best of ideas, but still... if the title's "Banned for teaching poi" and not "Careful when going to the US to teach poi", Jeff does have a point in stating that lying IS bad and if immigration catches you doing it they WILL react in whatever way laws tell them to.
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
I'm not attacking you. Using you as an example proves that in my mind you're one of the building blocks that hold hop up. (You're no longer a pillar now that you don't spin poi, sorry. You can be a cap stone if you like.)
I hate you NYC.
Does that make you feel better?
Written by: NYCWritten by: mcp
If you read a post by NYC you don't assume it's going to be light and fluffy, you assume it's going to be sarcastic or whiney. Or both.
Why are you attacking me in a thread I'm not even involved in?
You OK today?
I'm not attacking you. Using you as an example proves that in my mind you're one of the building blocks that hold hop up. (You're no longer a pillar now that you don't spin poi, sorry. You can be a cap stone if you like.)
I hate you NYC.
Does that make you feel better?
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
birgit:
i agree, but jeff has only just made that point - that's not what he was insinuating initially.
your point regarding the title of the thread is a valid one but only under the condition that you read the thread title in isolation - i.e. you don't bother to read the article that is the actual subject of the thread.
the article is in absolutely no way ambiguous and states in very clear terms what nick did wrong and what happened as a consequence.
jeff said: "I think gratuitous lying and law breaking is generally wrong" and "it is also my personal opinion that what he did wasn't right."
nick didn't attempt to give the impression that what he did was right, nor that he was in any way treated unfairly.
in fact, nick's 'lie' was more of a partial truth (which i would concede is tantamount to lying): he stated that he was going to visit friends - what he did wrong was choose to omit the part of his journey that involved teaching poi workshops for personal gain
the reasons that i'm opposed to jeff's views are firstly that i don't agree that nick broke the law 'gratuitously' - imo, he did it because the restrictions placed on someone that wishes to visit america to teach a niche artform are totally prohibitive and thus, his only option left was to omit that from his reasons for visiting.
secondly, i did not appreciate jeff's reduction of the subject to 'he lied and got what he deserved'.
thirdly, i was slightly offended by jeff's generally dismissive attitude towards nick's life choice (i.e. dedicating oneself to the sharing and teaching poi as an artform), expressed in his comments that implied 'he shouldn't have even bothered to try in the first place':
"If it was an expensive and difficult line of work, then it was a bad idea to be doing it. If I had to lie and break the law to do a job, I wouldn't do the job".
cole. x
birgit:
i agree, but jeff has only just made that point - that's not what he was insinuating initially.
your point regarding the title of the thread is a valid one but only under the condition that you read the thread title in isolation - i.e. you don't bother to read the article that is the actual subject of the thread.
the article is in absolutely no way ambiguous and states in very clear terms what nick did wrong and what happened as a consequence.
jeff said: "I think gratuitous lying and law breaking is generally wrong" and "it is also my personal opinion that what he did wasn't right."
nick didn't attempt to give the impression that what he did was right, nor that he was in any way treated unfairly.
in fact, nick's 'lie' was more of a partial truth (which i would concede is tantamount to lying): he stated that he was going to visit friends - what he did wrong was choose to omit the part of his journey that involved teaching poi workshops for personal gain
the reasons that i'm opposed to jeff's views are firstly that i don't agree that nick broke the law 'gratuitously' - imo, he did it because the restrictions placed on someone that wishes to visit america to teach a niche artform are totally prohibitive and thus, his only option left was to omit that from his reasons for visiting.
secondly, i did not appreciate jeff's reduction of the subject to 'he lied and got what he deserved'.
thirdly, i was slightly offended by jeff's generally dismissive attitude towards nick's life choice (i.e. dedicating oneself to the sharing and teaching poi as an artform), expressed in his comments that implied 'he shouldn't have even bothered to try in the first place':
"If it was an expensive and difficult line of work, then it was a bad idea to be doing it. If I had to lie and break the law to do a job, I wouldn't do the job".
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Yozzzzzawa,,,what a thread.
So what is the topic for discussion then ? Illegal immigration? If it really is just a FYI thing, then wouldn't it be better off in an intro thread rather than discussion?
Anyways, working in the US is a hot topic for most of us Canadians involved in small business, and anyone who's even remotely interested in crossing the border to the land of milk and honey has run up against the paperwork nightmare that may, or may not grant you access to the ( one mighty ) US dollar.
I have a whole host of stories, just like Nick's, some of them involving, the US, some Australia, and some England. It appears that there's a few countries that take a dim view of someone crossing their borders and making money.
I don't blame them.
Yozzzzzawa,,,what a thread.
So what is the topic for discussion then ? Illegal immigration? If it really is just a FYI thing, then wouldn't it be better off in an intro thread rather than discussion?
Anyways, working in the US is a hot topic for most of us Canadians involved in small business, and anyone who's even remotely interested in crossing the border to the land of milk and honey has run up against the paperwork nightmare that may, or may not grant you access to the ( one mighty ) US dollar.
I have a whole host of stories, just like Nick's, some of them involving, the US, some Australia, and some England. It appears that there's a few countries that take a dim view of someone crossing their borders and making money.
I don't blame them.
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
oh right yeah, I accidentally got the idea that america was the land of free enterprise.
I believe Britain as England is also known as, has a 'tit for tat' policy, we pay nice with the countries in the Commonwealth, who play nice with us.
oh right yeah, I accidentally got the idea that america was the land of free enterprise.
I believe Britain as England is also known as, has a 'tit for tat' policy, we pay nice with the countries in the Commonwealth, who play nice with us.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Wow...am I completely disappointed in this thread. If it were one person then I would PM him/her but it isn't.
First of all Jeff isn't at all being harsh/angry about Nick, nor has he accused him of plying for sympathy. There is not a single post of his that I would view as being harsh or aggressive. However, many of the responses to him, I absolutely would view that way.
What I think is there are a few people here who are jumping to the defense of Nick, when he doesn't need any.
Nick knows what he did was wrong. Karma in the form of law bit him in the bum and being the intelligent man he is, he's learned and is moving on and doing *great* things. I am sure he hopes others can also learn from his mistakes but that he wishes no angst over this. Water under the bridge and all.
However, Jeff, you can not expect everyone to hold up to your moral standard. Yes, I know you are going to say you don't expect them to, however, it is what it feels like you are pressing on here. This is not meant to be a lesson in higher morality as much as an informative "Why Nick hasn't been around" kinda thread.
I also agree with Birgit, the title is quite ambiguous. He actually was *not* stopped because of teaching poi. Through the proper channels they tend to not care a whole lot what you teach or that you teach. He was banned for lieing to federal officials and then for taking illegally gotten funds from nationals (and yes, that is how it is viewed).
While all of that may not seem like much to any of you because "it's just poi", the gov't views this as potentially stopping a future threat...if he lies about this he could lie about other things...like trafficking, terrorism, etc. We know Nick, they do not. They also view it very much as taking funds away from "natives" that could be providing the same service. Especially in any form of entertainment, it is very difficult to convince the gov't, without a corporate sponsor, that what you have to offer is singular. They want that reassurance before allowing you to make money here.
The US is *not* the only place with these types of visa laws. I know for a fact that when it comes to entertainment, Australian visa laws are similar. I *had* a corporate sponsor willing to pay for me to come over and the gov't denied it because the company wanted me to teach. They told the company to "find an Australian" despite that what I was doing was very much an American thing that few Australians did. Recently I had a corporate sponsor in Canada (and entire town, actually) who wanted to sponsor me to come up to perform and teach workshops for a Buskerfest. The laws wouldn't allow me in because of the teaching bit.
The laws are not so clear cut. They are actually in place to protect "natives", and believe it or not, have a practicality behind them. While there are glitches, as with anything political, and it does have loopholes, I understand why it is in place. Yes, it sucks. It costs alot of educators money, especially entertainment educators because in the collective governmental brain pan, we are of lesser value.
In the end...be nicer please and stop reading between the lines.
Nick, from seeing what you have been doing with playpoi, I am of the opinion that this actually worked out awesome for you...forcing you to explore other avenues. Congrats on the many successes and more to you in the future!
Someday we will have to hang again.
Wow...am I completely disappointed in this thread. If it were one person then I would PM him/her but it isn't.
First of all Jeff isn't at all being harsh/angry about Nick, nor has he accused him of plying for sympathy. There is not a single post of his that I would view as being harsh or aggressive. However, many of the responses to him, I absolutely would view that way.
What I think is there are a few people here who are jumping to the defense of Nick, when he doesn't need any.
Nick knows what he did was wrong. Karma in the form of law bit him in the bum and being the intelligent man he is, he's learned and is moving on and doing *great* things. I am sure he hopes others can also learn from his mistakes but that he wishes no angst over this. Water under the bridge and all.
However, Jeff, you can not expect everyone to hold up to your moral standard. Yes, I know you are going to say you don't expect them to, however, it is what it feels like you are pressing on here. This is not meant to be a lesson in higher morality as much as an informative "Why Nick hasn't been around" kinda thread.
I also agree with Birgit, the title is quite ambiguous. He actually was *not* stopped because of teaching poi. Through the proper channels they tend to not care a whole lot what you teach or that you teach. He was banned for lieing to federal officials and then for taking illegally gotten funds from nationals (and yes, that is how it is viewed).
While all of that may not seem like much to any of you because "it's just poi", the gov't views this as potentially stopping a future threat...if he lies about this he could lie about other things...like trafficking, terrorism, etc. We know Nick, they do not. They also view it very much as taking funds away from "natives" that could be providing the same service. Especially in any form of entertainment, it is very difficult to convince the gov't, without a corporate sponsor, that what you have to offer is singular. They want that reassurance before allowing you to make money here.
The US is *not* the only place with these types of visa laws. I know for a fact that when it comes to entertainment, Australian visa laws are similar. I *had* a corporate sponsor willing to pay for me to come over and the gov't denied it because the company wanted me to teach. They told the company to "find an Australian" despite that what I was doing was very much an American thing that few Australians did. Recently I had a corporate sponsor in Canada (and entire town, actually) who wanted to sponsor me to come up to perform and teach workshops for a Buskerfest. The laws wouldn't allow me in because of the teaching bit.
The laws are not so clear cut. They are actually in place to protect "natives", and believe it or not, have a practicality behind them. While there are glitches, as with anything political, and it does have loopholes, I understand why it is in place. Yes, it sucks. It costs alot of educators money, especially entertainment educators because in the collective governmental brain pan, we are of lesser value.
In the end...be nicer please and stop reading between the lines.
Nick, from seeing what you have been doing with playpoi, I am of the opinion that this actually worked out awesome for you...forcing you to explore other avenues. Congrats on the many successes and more to you in the future!
Someday we will have to hang again.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
Indeed, what a thread, im not getting involved but i do actually have some questions that are on topic.
I am planning to go over to America to teach contact staff sometime next spring. Meg, i know you went over recently to do the same, did you need a certain visa? And did you have any trouble similar to Nicks?
Any other general advise from anyone who knows? i dont really want to get thrown out of America and have what looks to be a great trip rouined.
Indeed, what a thread, im not getting involved but i do actually have some questions that are on topic.
I am planning to go over to America to teach contact staff sometime next spring. Meg, i know you went over recently to do the same, did you need a certain visa? And did you have any trouble similar to Nicks?
Any other general advise from anyone who knows? i dont really want to get thrown out of America and have what looks to be a great trip rouined.
"Don't do it naked!"
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
i think the moral lines are blurry around a situation like this.
as an example comparative case, a professional photographer, visiting his friends in the u.s. would almost certainly bring his camera (like any other tourist) so he can record his trip.
however, its also very likely that he would take the opportunity to take images that he may later sell on.
does this mean he should not be allowed to take his camera into the country, or be limited to say a compact camera with no interchangable lens?
or that he'd have to fill out the relevant paperwork just in case he took a photo that he later sold?
a case like this is similar to nick's situation in many ways - it warrants more judgement than just "this is the law, get out now".
on the teaching front, there doesn't seem to be any regard for individuals' teaching abilities i.e. we have people that do that here so you are not required.
the need for a sponsor to vouch for the person's presence and the need for their services is also slightly disturbing when applied to something as small scale as this artform - especially when there are already a large number of u.s. citizens that clearly expressed their want for nick's teaching.
the result is that border patrol have the power to overule those u.s. citizens that expressed their want for nick to come and teach them - that's stoopid to my mind...
if nick's website had priced the workshops differently, say "for those that attend a workshop, we would request a minimum donation of $40 towards nick's expenses", would that mean that the reason for his visit suddenly became legally acceptable in the eyes of border control?
and if it that is the case (i.e. that entry to the country comes down to how you describe your visit and activities whilst in the country), what exactly is it that he did wrong...?
cole. x
i think the moral lines are blurry around a situation like this.
as an example comparative case, a professional photographer, visiting his friends in the u.s. would almost certainly bring his camera (like any other tourist) so he can record his trip.
however, its also very likely that he would take the opportunity to take images that he may later sell on.
does this mean he should not be allowed to take his camera into the country, or be limited to say a compact camera with no interchangable lens?
or that he'd have to fill out the relevant paperwork just in case he took a photo that he later sold?
a case like this is similar to nick's situation in many ways - it warrants more judgement than just "this is the law, get out now".
on the teaching front, there doesn't seem to be any regard for individuals' teaching abilities i.e. we have people that do that here so you are not required.
the need for a sponsor to vouch for the person's presence and the need for their services is also slightly disturbing when applied to something as small scale as this artform - especially when there are already a large number of u.s. citizens that clearly expressed their want for nick's teaching.
the result is that border patrol have the power to overule those u.s. citizens that expressed their want for nick to come and teach them - that's stoopid to my mind...
if nick's website had priced the workshops differently, say "for those that attend a workshop, we would request a minimum donation of $40 towards nick's expenses", would that mean that the reason for his visit suddenly became legally acceptable in the eyes of border control?
and if it that is the case (i.e. that entry to the country comes down to how you describe your visit and activities whilst in the country), what exactly is it that he did wrong...?
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
let the gimps try and deport me now.
edited cos I respect colemans opinion.
EDITED_BY: mcp (1162304301)
let the gimps try and deport me now.
edited cos I respect colemans opinion.
EDITED_BY: mcp (1162304301)
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
meg - that advice might be better suited to a pm...
cole. x
meg - that advice might be better suited to a pm...
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
whhhhhhaaaaaaatttttt-ever!
whhhhhhaaaaaaatttttt-ever!
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I was just thinking that Coleman. Thanks for beating me to it.
However, it's already out there so....
I hate to say it but..don't advertise it on *YOUR* website.
"Donations" should be given to your sponsor/studio/people you are working with, not to you directly from students.
Coleman, if the photos are shot recreationally and not with the professional set up, then there is nothing they can do to stop it (I have several friends who are photographers). However, if you come in with one of those 10metre long scopes on it, they might stop you and have some questions.
As for the wants of the public. A class of even potentially 40 people is not enough to warrent allowing someone in. That is too small beans for our gov't. The view is, if this person is of a high level of importance and the community is one that wants him/her in badly enough, then the money will be found and the proper channels gone through. A wanting community would be able to support that.
However, I very much think that our view of community and the gov't view on what makes an artistic community are two *VERY* different things.
We'll take 10 people willing to cough up $10ea. They require at least hundreds willing to cough up much more...ya know?
I was just thinking that Coleman. Thanks for beating me to it.
However, it's already out there so....
I hate to say it but..don't advertise it on *YOUR* website.
"Donations" should be given to your sponsor/studio/people you are working with, not to you directly from students.
Coleman, if the photos are shot recreationally and not with the professional set up, then there is nothing they can do to stop it (I have several friends who are photographers). However, if you come in with one of those 10metre long scopes on it, they might stop you and have some questions.
As for the wants of the public. A class of even potentially 40 people is not enough to warrent allowing someone in. That is too small beans for our gov't. The view is, if this person is of a high level of importance and the community is one that wants him/her in badly enough, then the money will be found and the proper channels gone through. A wanting community would be able to support that.
However, I very much think that our view of community and the gov't view on what makes an artistic community are two *VERY* different things.
We'll take 10 people willing to cough up $10ea. They require at least hundreds willing to cough up much more...ya know?
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
for those in the artsy performancey realm looking to travel off their skills i had a ex who used to fund her travel via government grants as "professional development". I know the capoeira ppl in adelaide often fundraise and the local instructure charges for the workshops "hall rental" in advance which all goes to paying for the guest teachers ticket and expenses.
the laws the law its not designed well but it is what it is, i dont think high and mighty morals really belong here its more a question of do you know the rules of the game well enought to play it, its the spirit of the law which is much more important than the letter of it, the government recognises this which is why there isnt a hard and fast number for a crime and that a judge pass a sentance based on all the evidence not just the crime.
the spirit of the law is intended to protect locals, in practise nick taking a few workshops as a poi celeb isnt stealing revenue from local poi artists (unless of course they are of the same caliber with the same reputation as nick for his spinning, anyone know any of them who would object to nick coming to their home town?)
for those in the artsy performancey realm looking to travel off their skills i had a ex who used to fund her travel via government grants as "professional development". I know the capoeira ppl in adelaide often fundraise and the local instructure charges for the workshops "hall rental" in advance which all goes to paying for the guest teachers ticket and expenses.
the laws the law its not designed well but it is what it is, i dont think high and mighty morals really belong here its more a question of do you know the rules of the game well enought to play it, its the spirit of the law which is much more important than the letter of it, the government recognises this which is why there isnt a hard and fast number for a crime and that a judge pass a sentance based on all the evidence not just the crime.
the spirit of the law is intended to protect locals, in practise nick taking a few workshops as a poi celeb isnt stealing revenue from local poi artists (unless of course they are of the same caliber with the same reputation as nick for his spinning, anyone know any of them who would object to nick coming to their home town?)
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
aye, there's the rub.
it seems a bizarre way to confirm the need for the foreigner-offered services:
if you have connections to a group in america that is prepared to back you up with a large sum of money, you can come and take some of it.
however, if you only want to come and take a small amount of money from a small number of people you might as well go back home right now.
this part of the u.s. immigration policy (that i imagine is intended to protect american citizens that offer services from foreigners coming to the country and taking away their trade by offering similar services) is disappointing, given that there is no consideration for extremely small groups.
i don't mean to be declaring anything in particular or making any comparisons to other immigrations policies across the world here.
i'm just saying that for a nation as large as the u.s. its a shame they are not more accommodating to teachers of niche skills.
cole. x
Written by: Pele
However, I very much think that our view of community and the gov't view on what makes an artistic community are two *VERY* different things.
We'll take 10 people willing to cough up $10ea. They require at least hundreds willing to cough up much more...ya know?
aye, there's the rub.
it seems a bizarre way to confirm the need for the foreigner-offered services:
if you have connections to a group in america that is prepared to back you up with a large sum of money, you can come and take some of it.
however, if you only want to come and take a small amount of money from a small number of people you might as well go back home right now.
this part of the u.s. immigration policy (that i imagine is intended to protect american citizens that offer services from foreigners coming to the country and taking away their trade by offering similar services) is disappointing, given that there is no consideration for extremely small groups.
i don't mean to be declaring anything in particular or making any comparisons to other immigrations policies across the world here.
i'm just saying that for a nation as large as the u.s. its a shame they are not more accommodating to teachers of niche skills.
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I don't think that the issue is that he taught poi. The issue is that he got paid.
The same would be true for your camera arguement. Take all the photos you want but if you open a store on 42nd street you're going to need a work visa and you're going to have to pay taxes.
I've got plenty of friends that have been "Banned from the UK" not for making people dinner or serving them drinks, but for getting PAID to do such things.
I'm not going to argue one side or the other BUT the issue is a work/money issue.
Written by: coleman
i think the moral lines are blurry around a situation like this.
as an example comparative case, a professional photographer, visiting his friends in the u.s. would almost certainly bring his camera (like any other tourist) so he can record his trip.
however, its also very likely that he would take the opportunity to take images that he may later sell on.
does this mean he should not be allowed to take his camera into the country, or be limited to say a compact camera with no interchangable lens?
or that he'd have to fill out the relevant paperwork just in case he took a photo that he later sold?
a case like this is similar to nick's situation in many ways - it warrants more judgement than just "this is the law, get out now".
I don't think that the issue is that he taught poi. The issue is that he got paid.
The same would be true for your camera arguement. Take all the photos you want but if you open a store on 42nd street you're going to need a work visa and you're going to have to pay taxes.
I've got plenty of friends that have been "Banned from the UK" not for making people dinner or serving them drinks, but for getting PAID to do such things.
I'm not going to argue one side or the other BUT the issue is a work/money issue.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
old hand
716 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
'I don't think that the issue is that he taught poi. The issue is that he got paid.'
How likly do you think it is that you'd get caught if you are charging for workshops?
'I don't think that the issue is that he taught poi. The issue is that he got paid.'
How likly do you think it is that you'd get caught if you are charging for workshops?
"Don't do it naked!"
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
yeah, i get that man - that's why i compared it to a photographer that comes to visit and take pics of his friends and then gets PAID for them at a later date (possibly even in another country).
you seem to have accidently closed your eyes as you were passing my point...
as for your friends that got banned from the u.k. for getting paid for serving people drinks - they were supplying a service that many u.k. citizens can provide at an equal level.
however, when you add an artistic element to the purpose of the work, the lines become far more blurry.
yes, there are people in the u.s. that can teach poi too, but are there any that teach using the same techniques and style as nick? or to the same level?
i.e. is he providing a service that is unique?
and if the answer to that is yes, is the restriction that stops him from providing those services, to a small group of u.s. citizens that have actually requested them, not a pointless one?
cole. x
yeah, i get that man - that's why i compared it to a photographer that comes to visit and take pics of his friends and then gets PAID for them at a later date (possibly even in another country).
you seem to have accidently closed your eyes as you were passing my point...
as for your friends that got banned from the u.k. for getting paid for serving people drinks - they were supplying a service that many u.k. citizens can provide at an equal level.
however, when you add an artistic element to the purpose of the work, the lines become far more blurry.
yes, there are people in the u.s. that can teach poi too, but are there any that teach using the same techniques and style as nick? or to the same level?
i.e. is he providing a service that is unique?
and if the answer to that is yes, is the restriction that stops him from providing those services, to a small group of u.s. citizens that have actually requested them, not a pointless one?
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Coleman, there's nothing that stops a photographer from entering the US, taking photos and then putting them up for sale in his home country. The problems come if he were to try and sell the shots in the US, as NYC pointed out.
It would have possible, but not easy or cheap, for Nick to have done this legally, but unfortunately for him, he just decided to "wing it",,,and got caught, that's all. In other words, he took a gamble, and lost.
The unique service idea might have gotten him is an employee, or possibly an employer, but when it comes to "one man shows" like this, then the best course is to follow the letter of the law ( and sometimes not even that works )
Would it have been to much to expect the "small group" of Americans to come up to Canada for the workshops ?
Coleman, there's nothing that stops a photographer from entering the US, taking photos and then putting them up for sale in his home country. The problems come if he were to try and sell the shots in the US, as NYC pointed out.
It would have possible, but not easy or cheap, for Nick to have done this legally, but unfortunately for him, he just decided to "wing it",,,and got caught, that's all. In other words, he took a gamble, and lost.
The unique service idea might have gotten him is an employee, or possibly an employer, but when it comes to "one man shows" like this, then the best course is to follow the letter of the law ( and sometimes not even that works )
Would it have been to much to expect the "small group" of Americans to come up to Canada for the workshops ?
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
And you closed your eyes while reading my point about opening a photograph store on 42nd street?
I got your point. It's clearly laid out in law.
If you come to America on a vacation visa and take photographs you're fine. If you go back to London and sell them, you're fine. If you sell them here, you're not fine.
It is not legal for someone on a visitors visa to make money in the US. The same way it works in the UK.
Do people do it? Sure.
Do people get caught? Sure.
After that you start debating the pointlessness of the law which I'm not debating.
It seems to me like you're trying to debate the ethics of the law while failing to acknowledge the law itself.
There are clearcut and enforced immigration, work, and taxation laws in any Western country.
It would be quite easy for me to get "Banned from the UK for teaching Poi Workshops."
Again, I ain't gettin' into ethics, I'm staying strictly on fact.
The ethics of immigration is a good topic and an important one for me.
Written by: coleman
yeah, i get that man - that's why i compared it to a photographer that comes to visit and take pics of his friends and then gets PAID for them at a later date (possibly even in another country).
you seem to have accidently closed your eyes as you were passing my point...
And you closed your eyes while reading my point about opening a photograph store on 42nd street?
I got your point. It's clearly laid out in law.
If you come to America on a vacation visa and take photographs you're fine. If you go back to London and sell them, you're fine. If you sell them here, you're not fine.
It is not legal for someone on a visitors visa to make money in the US. The same way it works in the UK.
Do people do it? Sure.
Do people get caught? Sure.
After that you start debating the pointlessness of the law which I'm not debating.
It seems to me like you're trying to debate the ethics of the law while failing to acknowledge the law itself.
There are clearcut and enforced immigration, work, and taxation laws in any Western country.
It would be quite easy for me to get "Banned from the UK for teaching Poi Workshops."
Again, I ain't gettin' into ethics, I'm staying strictly on fact.
The ethics of immigration is a good topic and an important one for me.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I'm also realizing that there are several issues here:
1) The ethical issues of Nick's actions.
2) The ethical issues of immigration laws.
3) The legal issues of Nick's actions.
4) The legal issues of immigration laws.
Seems like several of us are cross argueing.
Jeff seemed to have taken issue with #1 in reference to #3.
Cole seems to be stuck on #2.
I'm also realizing that there are several issues here:
1) The ethical issues of Nick's actions.
2) The ethical issues of immigration laws.
3) The legal issues of Nick's actions.
4) The legal issues of immigration laws.
Seems like several of us are cross argueing.
Jeff seemed to have taken issue with #1 in reference to #3.
Cole seems to be stuck on #2.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
We know a fair few who have.
So this is my question, why do it if you are afraid of being caught?
Have whomever is sponsoring you pay your airfare, put you up and give you food stipend in advance. Don't get paid once you get here. Then you can say you are visiting friends and not working with all honesty. Once you're here and you teach it will be "for fun" rather than for pay.
Also, don't tour and don't come back and forth into the country often. It raises lots of red flags when passing through.
Written by: -sandy-
'I don't think that the issue is that he taught poi. The issue is that he got paid.'
How likly do you think it is that you'd get caught if you are charging for workshops?
We know a fair few who have.
So this is my question, why do it if you are afraid of being caught?
Have whomever is sponsoring you pay your airfare, put you up and give you food stipend in advance. Don't get paid once you get here. Then you can say you are visiting friends and not working with all honesty. Once you're here and you teach it will be "for fun" rather than for pay.
Also, don't tour and don't come back and forth into the country often. It raises lots of red flags when passing through.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
stout - what if the photographer in my example put his photos up for sale on his website and ended up selling them to people resident in the u.s. from the area he visited?
is that not akin to this kind of activity (though from his posts, nyc has implied that this is totally legal):
photographer comes to the u.s. on a holiday visa, takes a load of photos in a studio, goes home and then sells those photos back to owners of the studio, invoicing them from his home country?
"It would have possible, but not easy or cheap, for Nick to have done this legally, but unfortunately for him, he just decided to "wing it", and got caught, that's all. In other words, he took a gamble, and lost."
i totally agree (as does nick i would imagine) and haven't said anything to the contrary
to suggest an answer to your last question, i reckon the answer is 'yes, it is too much to expect' - for them its the difference between one flight for nick to come teach or 30 flights for the students to go to him...
i believe it was several 'small groups' of americans that nick planned to visit and teach 'on tour'.
if the number of people that nick was on his way to visit were willing to come to canada to learn, the poi studio might still be alive and kicking today (although it would be responsible for many more cubic feet of air travel produced carbon emissions ).
cole. x
stout - what if the photographer in my example put his photos up for sale on his website and ended up selling them to people resident in the u.s. from the area he visited?
is that not akin to this kind of activity (though from his posts, nyc has implied that this is totally legal):
photographer comes to the u.s. on a holiday visa, takes a load of photos in a studio, goes home and then sells those photos back to owners of the studio, invoicing them from his home country?
"It would have possible, but not easy or cheap, for Nick to have done this legally, but unfortunately for him, he just decided to "wing it", and got caught, that's all. In other words, he took a gamble, and lost."
i totally agree (as does nick i would imagine) and haven't said anything to the contrary
to suggest an answer to your last question, i reckon the answer is 'yes, it is too much to expect' - for them its the difference between one flight for nick to come teach or 30 flights for the students to go to him...
i believe it was several 'small groups' of americans that nick planned to visit and teach 'on tour'.
if the number of people that nick was on his way to visit were willing to come to canada to learn, the poi studio might still be alive and kicking today (although it would be responsible for many more cubic feet of air travel produced carbon emissions
).cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
To keep the photo analogy close to the poi spinning: If someone went for a leisurly spin, say at Burning Man, made a video and then put it up for sale to people in the US later that would be legal. It's about making money while you're there, and personally I think it's okay to put restrictions to that. If the ones that are in place now make sense is another question.
To keep the photo analogy close to the poi spinning: If someone went for a leisurly spin, say at Burning Man, made a video and then put it up for sale to people in the US later that would be legal. It's about making money while you're there, and personally I think it's okay to put restrictions to that. If the ones that are in place now make sense is another question.
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
In the first example, the actual financial transaction would be taking place outside the US, therefore no problem. In the second example, it's basically the same thing. It's all about where you are when the money changes hands, and as Pele noted, not attracting the wrong kind of attention to yourself.
I figure it's too much to expect the Americans to come up to Canada too, but strictly because this was designed to be a money making venture, were the workshops motivated by love, then maybe I'd think differently.
BTW I actually flew to Asia in 2003 because Nick was advertising poi lessons. It wasn't the reason I went on holiday, but it was the reason I went to Asia for the second year in a row.
Yea, the carbon emissions, Given Nick's recent globetrotting adventures, I can't say that these were ever part of the equation ( yes, I saw the winking smiley ) but it is a valid point.
In the first example, the actual financial transaction would be taking place outside the US, therefore no problem. In the second example, it's basically the same thing. It's all about where you are when the money changes hands, and as Pele noted, not attracting the wrong kind of attention to yourself.
I figure it's too much to expect the Americans to come up to Canada too, but strictly because this was designed to be a money making venture, were the workshops motivated by love, then maybe I'd think differently.
BTW I actually flew to Asia in 2003 because Nick was advertising poi lessons. It wasn't the reason I went on holiday, but it was the reason I went to Asia for the second year in a row.
Yea, the carbon emissions, Given Nick's recent globetrotting adventures, I can't say that these were ever part of the equation ( yes, I saw the winking smiley ) but it is a valid point.
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
what in the world gave you the impression that i was 'failing to acknowledge the law'?
the post about the photographer started with the line "i think the moral lines are blurry around a situation like this."
i'm not 'stuck' on the ethical issues regarding this specific area of the immigration laws - i am (was) directly debating exactly that, as i clearly stated.
the immigration laws are a given - i'm not arguing what they are - i'm arguing about their ridiculous irrelevance to a situation like nick's.
i assumed that people knew that what nick did was illegal as he clearly did well before he got in the van (and he made it pretty damn clear in his article).
for some reason though, you saw fit to reiterate what the law is when i was clearly debating the ethical appropriateness of applying said law to a niche activity such as teaching poi workshops.
nyc seems to be stuck on #5: insisting on stating obvious facts
how about this - ignore my photographer comparisons and only pay attention to what i said about nick's situation
stout - so basically as long as money doesn't change hands while the person is within u.s. borders, everything's rosy?
so all nick needed to do was request that people pay him first or send the money to his poi studio in canada for him to collect on his return and he would have been okay...?
that sounds like shaky legal ground to me...
if that's correct, there's an answer for you sandy: either get paid in advance as pele suggests, or invoice whoever you are working for after the trip.
cole. x
Written by: NYC
It seems to me like you're trying to debate the ethics of the law while failing to acknowledge the law itself.
There are clearcut and enforced immigration, work, and taxation laws in any Western country.
what in the world gave you the impression that i was 'failing to acknowledge the law'?
the post about the photographer started with the line "i think the moral lines are blurry around a situation like this."
i'm not 'stuck' on the ethical issues regarding this specific area of the immigration laws - i am (was) directly debating exactly that, as i clearly stated.
the immigration laws are a given - i'm not arguing what they are - i'm arguing about their ridiculous irrelevance to a situation like nick's.
i assumed that people knew that what nick did was illegal as he clearly did well before he got in the van (and he made it pretty damn clear in his article).
for some reason though, you saw fit to reiterate what the law is when i was clearly debating the ethical appropriateness of applying said law to a niche activity such as teaching poi workshops.
nyc seems to be stuck on #5: insisting on stating obvious facts
how about this - ignore my photographer comparisons and only pay attention to what i said about nick's situation
stout - so basically as long as money doesn't change hands while the person is within u.s. borders, everything's rosy?
so all nick needed to do was request that people pay him first or send the money to his poi studio in canada for him to collect on his return and he would have been okay...?
that sounds like shaky legal ground to me...
if that's correct, there's an answer for you sandy: either get paid in advance as pele suggests, or invoice whoever you are working for after the trip.
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Coleman,,in a nutshell yes, however, if immigration authorities have a reason to suspect you're working that too can be enough to get yourself deported.
One of those stories....A buddy of mine was working illegally in the US, when he was pulled over driving a car, registered in his name, with Illinois licence plates on it, but in possession of a Canadian drivers licence. That was enough to get him deported, even though, they never actually caught him working. Well, that's the story he gave me anyway.
If Nick had deleted any reference to his teaching workshops from his website, or better yet, never posted it, he might have gotten away with saying he was merely a tourist, and carried on as he expected. Assuming that is, that no pissed off American poi teacher had alerted immigration that Nick was coming.
In the real world, what it really comes down to is the personal mood of whichever border guard you happen to encounter when crossing over. These guys can, and will make your life miserable, even if all your paperwork is in order.
The key is discretion, which can work well for someone like a poi teacher, but if you're a guy like me, with a van load of stuff to sell, you run the risk of loosing way more than access to America , like all your stuff, and the van, and all the money you have on you. ( I'm not making that last one up )
I've been down this road,,,lots, with US immigration, and as much as I'd like to be typing this from Maui right now, I find that that the hassles and legalities far outweigh any financial benefits. And it's only getting worse.
Coleman,,in a nutshell yes, however, if immigration authorities have a reason to suspect you're working that too can be enough to get yourself deported.
One of those stories....A buddy of mine was working illegally in the US, when he was pulled over driving a car, registered in his name, with Illinois licence plates on it, but in possession of a Canadian drivers licence. That was enough to get him deported, even though, they never actually caught him working. Well, that's the story he gave me anyway.
If Nick had deleted any reference to his teaching workshops from his website, or better yet, never posted it, he might have gotten away with saying he was merely a tourist, and carried on as he expected. Assuming that is, that no pissed off American poi teacher had alerted immigration that Nick was coming.
In the real world, what it really comes down to is the personal mood of whichever border guard you happen to encounter when crossing over. These guys can, and will make your life miserable, even if all your paperwork is in order.
The key is discretion, which can work well for someone like a poi teacher, but if you're a guy like me, with a van load of stuff to sell, you run the risk of loosing way more than access to America , like all your stuff, and the van, and all the money you have on you. ( I'm not making that last one up )
I've been down this road,,,lots, with US immigration, and as much as I'd like to be typing this from Maui right now, I find that that the hassles and legalities far outweigh any financial benefits. And it's only getting worse.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I think sometimes you don't state the obvious or acknowledge your understanding of the bigger picture and that confuses me. Often times you'll be picking on a small point (or one that I find less central to the arguement) and yet I've got no sense that you agree or understand the bigger picture.
I think we agree on the big picture here.
The big picture is that this has less to do with poi and more to do with illegally working in the United States. Despite what the title might have implied.
The title also seems to have been what Jeff jumped on.
If the title had been "Bummer! I got busted for working illegally!" I think this discussion would have been quite different for some of us.
Written by: coleman
nyc seems to be stuck on #5: insisting on stating obvious facts
I think sometimes you don't state the obvious or acknowledge your understanding of the bigger picture and that confuses me. Often times you'll be picking on a small point (or one that I find less central to the arguement) and yet I've got no sense that you agree or understand the bigger picture.
I think we agree on the big picture here.
The big picture is that this has less to do with poi and more to do with illegally working in the United States. Despite what the title might have implied.
The title also seems to have been what Jeff jumped on.
If the title had been "Bummer! I got busted for working illegally!" I think this discussion would have been quite different for some of us.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
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