Forums > Social Chat > Coming out in this World

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
Y'know HoP is a funny place. Since, I've of course, never met a large majority of you, I don't even know if a few of you are guys or girls... Sexuality almost never comes up overtly on threads and most of the time it's ambiguous anyway. I guess this is a pretty ideal place, you can identify yourself as specifically or vaguely as one would like.

As for not feeling like a steriotypical "gay" guy, great. This world needs less steriotypes.

Don't buy into the urge to pigeon hole yourself. Just be you. Whoever that is. (Who are you? )

I applaud your openness and frankness and wish you strength on your journey to define, or not define, yourself.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
I'm not really sure how to answer that but I'll try. I'm really strang, I'm only sexually attracted to my girlfriend.
but:
Well i guess if your attracted to both sexes then you're bi. From reading your post the problem you may be having is that you think that because your bi that you can't have a relation ship with one sex because that maybe you or you partner will have problems with you being attracted to another sex. Well Straight and Gay people are attracted to other people all the time (Thats why there is porn), but if they truelly love the person there with then it doesn't matter. And if the person your with doesn't like the fact your attracted both sexes then they have just lost themselfs a wonderful partner.

I hope that helps, like I said I'm only attracted to my girlfriend so I could be completely wrong.

In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
Jello,

First of all I wish to applaud your strength and courage, because it takes alot to make the revelations to yourself, to really realize strong parts about who you are. Congrats to you for finding that strength where so many these days cower from the realizations.

Here is the thing...why do you have to announce to anyone who you prefer to date? They will figure it out in thier own time. Just as I do not expect someone to come up to me and say "Guess what, I think I am straight." with nerves on edge and face all sheepish, I don't expect that from anyone else.

From a historical perspective, we are not hetero by nature, nor are we monogomous by nature in our urges. That is a social expectancy of "modern" culture. We simply have a preference, the way we do to coffee or tea, steak or chicken. One wets our whistle, the other does not.

Now, yes, the social, media driven stigma is there. However, you are in a really good place to really defeat that. Simply don't say anything unless someone asks you, or you are attracted to someone. This allows people to make the choice for themselves about whether or not they like you, just as they do everyone else, regardless of sexual orientation. You face more stigma in this country based on your sex and race, which you can not hide easily, than you do on religion or orientation, because those are only a public issue if you let them be.

And I know this Jello because I am bi. I see things this way, I am more attracted to men than women (there is that preference thing again) but I have dated women and really enjoyed my time with them, and one I loved very much. In my eyes all people are the same, regardless of sex, religion, anything. Why should I limit the love in my heart and in my life because of what the social "right" believes?
I know some wonderful gay couples and you wouldn't know they are when you talk with them. I know some amazing straight people, and you wouldn't guess that either after a years worth of conversation.
Fear of what we don't understand is in our very nature, and unfortunately, we aren't born with an instruction book on how to handle it.

Be your wonderful, beautiful, creative and strong self, just as you have always been. Sex is not who you are, it is part of your life path but it is not the road you tread on.
Much love and support on your journey.

Pele

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
Whatever you choose, make sure it's for you, and your happiness. No-one else matters.

If you want to swing heavy (often flame-engullfed) objects around your head at high speed, so be it. You should be more worried about that than who you find attractive, and what others think!

It looks to me though that your post has all the questions and most of the answers, you are answering yourself as you go along. I think you know what to do, and you should do it. Sod what we think, what you feel is what counts.

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
Good responses

HOP is a great place for all those reasons NYC.

I don't know quite what to say, but thanks for the well thought out words Pele, Frost, and The Scientist I guess every now and again I feel the need to grab on to some definition, something thats "me". When I don't find anything, which at this liminal point in my life is almost always, I try to use things like attraction and sex to define who I am, even though I know I shouldn't. I'm stuck between two points, between what I was as a kid and what I will be after college, I'm sure it'll be more clear when I have other things in my life to help define who I am. Things are just changing right now.

_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
Jello,

First of all, no matter what you decide you are, you're always the same guy you were yesterday.

I don't understand why people treat sexuality as if it were a multiple-choice question. It isn't. You don't "pick one of the above." Oh sure, people find different convenient ways to lump people in to a finite set of categories. We have to do that in life, whether it's sexuality or race or religion. Everyone is an individual, so we can't keep track of that, but we can keep track of two or three categories.

So the question is this: how much does it matter to you what others think of all this? Besides, are you going to introduce yourself to other people as "Hi, I'm Jello and I'm gay."? No, you probably won't mention your sexuality to people until they know you anyways.

As for your concerns about succumbing to the stereotypes, rest assured that it need not be the case! In the group I swim with, there are four gay men who I know very well, aged 32-45. One of them is a total girl, fits the stereotype like a hand in a glove. He gets his "hair done" by a hairdresser, worries about his weight and constantly complains about how fat he is and how he has to look good for swimsuit season, etc. etc. etc. One is somewhat low-key, but you'd know. And the other two totally caught me off-guard when I found out they were gay. I was all "you are? really?" They don't fit the stereotype at all.

Part of it is your scene. You going to get into the gay club scene? You might pick up some mannerisms. You just going to keep going about your business and just happen to be more interested in guys than girls? Then you probably won't pick up those mannerisms you fear.

If you take the focus off being gay or straight or bi or whatever else and just think about being Jello, you'll do fine. And you can also grab a trusted friend and instruct him/her to smack you upside the head if you start flaming.

Much respect, dude.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
the way i see it is...as long as you are happy and healthy and are doing the things you enjoy doing then who is anyone else on the planet to call you wrong? people spend their whole lives misarable because they dont go out and try things..so they get stuck in a place or situation they hate and never get out of it. i would hate to be like that....i mean..im dirt poor...have no car and no liscence..and barely have clothes not screwed up enough to wear in public..but i am happy with who i am and what im doing..and even tho people look at me differently because my shoes have holes in them and because my clothes are stained from working....thats fine....im happy. just look after your own life and let everything and everyone else fall into its place....you have alota balls to say something so "taboo" according to society so openly and that shows you have the strenght to on your own and live your own life....i applaud you jello...

its to dying in anothers arms and why i had to try it......

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
real nice post jello, real touchingi'm sure you will be happy with what ever you decide is best for you to do and where to go from here.

i have tended to keep my own sexuality to myself because of my own choices in life mostly because of the sterotypical name calling and being placed as you say into social catagories.
even my closest of friends do not know the way i feel because i prefere to keep it to myself simply because of those reasons, yeah maybe most of them guess from time to time.
but when i met my soul mate she knew and she asked me, i've never kept secrets from her and we have a fantastic relationship together, i know about her sexuality from the start and it has never given either of us any problems and i cant see it happening in the future.
i did feel however that it is nice to actually tell some one close how you feel about your feelings towrards others male or female.
my preference still obviously towards my girl as my love for her is beyond any thing that i thought i could ever find in anyone after my last relationship, it turned my life around after that, but i still have these feelings and there is nothing i can do about that.
i have found through my travels performing at both gay and straight clubs the amount of gay/bi guys that are really open in straight clubs and. i was quite suprised myself, wether some of them were just checking to see what/whom were under the costumes or what ever. that made me more socially awear of my own sexuality and of others around me, in and out of work. more so the way i am around people and how i feel towards diferent people.
i certainly do not mind talking about it here because i know those that know me really dont care and all are open minded to not even mention it.
in my own mind though it has to be one or the other. i cant see my relationship with nancy ending. so to think about a relationship with any one else doesnt come in to if for me, i only have eyes for her. i hope it lasts for the rest of my life i'm sure it will, but who can predict the future.
like i have said in other threads, this is a new year and i am going to enjoy it to the fullest.

PK

[ 30. January 2003, 16:11: Message edited by: Sheffield Skirt Consortium ]

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
mike, i like your style of respose man.
unicorn, real nice post
i feel too tired to type any more than that for now. its 3.15 am again , damn.

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
Mike, theblackunicorn, Sheffield Skirt Consortiumm, thanks for the responses. It's hard to respond to all this, but I appreciate it.

I defintly strive to be my own person, to be defined myself on my own terms. Which is a huge uphill battle anyways. I would also like to add that there are those who tell me, " Why hide? Be bold and out!" and in some respects I follow that logic. Which is where the conflict lies, thats not quite me. I don't mean I would hide who I am, I just don't want to adapt an attitude that isn't me in order to advertise. I guess one issue is that my sexaulity plays a very seperate and segregated role in my life, I think I need to work it in more, make it run of the mill and normal. It's just very displaced from the rest of the things that make up me, I need to assimilate it I guess. Than I can go about being just who I am, instead of this split up and confused person I sometimes become.

and woah, Sheffield Skirt Consortiumm just turned into Smugs

[ 30. January 2003, 16:49: Message edited by: Jello ]

_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
Sexuality, sex, and gender are not the same thing.

Sexuality does'nt need definition.

Sex is what physically makes you male or female and unless you are a hermaphrodite it's pretty clear cut. Male or female.

Gender is a much more complicated issue, Like sexuality it has two polar extremes a person can be anything inbetween. Although I believe it's not even as simple as plotting yourself on a line somewheres between male and female

M <----a---b-----c--> F

I think it's possible that some characteristics of your being can be plotted at one position on the gradient (A) and others facets can be plotted at another (B) and other facets can plotted in yet another position (C).

This said I would also like to say I don't think it is neccesary to fret over defineing your position on sexuality or gender because I think that is a very difficult thing to do and im not really certain what purpose it follows. Just follow your heart and do what you feel like. Definitions only serve other people who wish to categorize you. Also if you spend 2 months pondering where you sit on some silly graph and you start to shift (I think for a lot of people their sexuality and gender does shift over time) You will have a harder time adjusting with the change because in your own mind you are compromising something you spent 2 months considering.

Oh yeah and the reason I was ranting about gender is because I think it's perfectly possible and common to be gay and still be perfectly masculine. I think the gay people who are feminine *who are not* bending to the pressure of societys stereotypes simply have a diffrent gender orientation. They could be heterosexual and feminine to.

It sounds to me like you are worried that your sexuality is somehow tied to your gender and I personally think they are largely independent and our society likes to place an artifical link on the two.

These are just my thoughts and I know they may not be the most illuminating because I am dealing with some of the same things you are and these thoughts certainly do not answer a lot a lot of the answers I am searching for but they have helped me a lot. I find it's an ongoing process and there is no need for a rush or pressure.

Anyways that's a huge rant and also a bit of comeing out for me I guess since ive only really come out to close friends before (and on another forum but it was in a busy thread and my confession seemed to go unoticed)

Best of luck.

[ 30. January 2003, 16:54: Message edited by: Astar ]

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
sorry had to change my name, thats was for a laugh and i couldnt really post any thing serious with that next to it.

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
hehe, no problem Smugs

Astar - Good points about gender, it really is something to think about, we mix the two alot. I'm actually taking a course about Gender in a cross cultural context, though it just started last week so I'm not very knowledgable yet.

Hmm, that is something to think about, my gender is seperate...interesting

_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
Many Native American nations believed there was actually 4 or 5 diffrent genders but with the comeing of the europeans that was almost destroyed. But apparently it's starting to make a comeback mostly amongst gay natives who are looking to their history for answers.

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
You wouldn't happen to know any of the other genders would you? I've heard that too but nobody knows what they are.

_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
I have no idea.

They also held people in the other genders in high regard and thought they were a sort of link between the spiritual and physical world.

Posted: 29th Jan 2003
perhaps attatching a label is limiting ...

and in the long run .. it'll probably change ...

at age 16-straight 21- bi 23- gay 25 straight again.... a good friend of mine did that .. she's 45 now and living in a line marriage .. classifys her sexuality as "whatever gender my lover is "

but some people need the saftey of a label.. it gives them a crutch ..

pax,
ivan

thats right i look like an albino ape that has had a bad day.. go ahead say something stupid... i dare ya !

Posted: 29th Jan 2003


My first impulse is to say it really does not matter who you are attracted to, you just are. But I know it is more complicated than that.

A good mate spent many tough years in high school figuring out that she was gay. Then in her final year she got on to a guy. She was upset, because she felt that all those years of figuring out, and being tough, had been betrayed in some way. Not true, but that is how that beasty known as the human mind works.

I admire greatly people who take the time to figure out what they want out of life. Don't limit yourself to exploding one stereotype (that of the straight guy), explode them all (gay, straight, bi, whatever the label). And don't think you have wasted the work you have put in to get to this point, every brave statement, every intrepid exporation of yourself, has built you up to who you are now.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted: 30th Jan 2003
There are way too many stereotypes in this world - that's true. And it's really sad that when you find who you are you are then pushed into a pigeon hole and that is what people expect from you.

I can't really relate to most of the issues you've raised - but throughout my childhood I was plagued with 'speaking too properly'. This obviously meant i was rich, snobby, selfish, heartless, clever, superior.....etc. Which certainly wasn't the case.

Unfortunately the vast majority of people have expectations of other people that cannot change unless they have close enough contact with that 'type of person to think differently. Call them stereotypes, call them expectations etc...... it doesn't matter. They're there and they make me quite sad at times.

You'll also find that on a smaller level - your closer friends and hopefully your family - the people at work who you're close to and stuff - will overlook it because it's still YOU and nothing about YOU has changed. But to strangers, you're the 'posh' one or the 'bi' one or whatever.....sad i know.

Guess there's no point to this post. Just observations. Except that the people who matter will not judge you

I know it'll all work out great for you - I've got a nice feeling that you deserve all the happiness and love in the world

Geologists do it in the dirt................

Posted: 30th Jan 2003
Nothing wrong wiv kissin boys - nothin wrong wiv kissin gurls.. I've done both in my time..

Just be who you are and with people don't like it - it's thier loss hunny..

Free love to the world!

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Posted: 30th Jan 2003
Once again, wow, thanks for all the responses and support!

I'll try to go on with my life as I always did, see what happens and try to have fun with it. Can't do much more than that.

Every once and a while I'm sure I'll come back to places or states of mind like I had when I wrote this. I guess like your friend Rozi, I needed to see some kind of product, something accomplished (way to go societal influences!)

And as to close friends and family, from experience I can only trust my friends. I've come out to only one family member, and even though that happened, geez, 6 months ago, I still get scared when I see him. It's my cousin, he's my age and we were great friends all my childhood. When I told him I could see in his eyes everything had changed. He said he didn't know me anymore, not really. And than, when he broke up with his girlfriend who was also a friend of mine, he blamed me more than her for the breakup and threatened to out me. I don't think he has a high opinion of non-straight people, he just hides it because he knows its not politically correct to think that way. But when he's hurt or angry or whatever I'll be fair game. That and he just looks down on me now.

So thats my one family incident, I havn't built up the strength to try another.

_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................

Posted: 30th Jan 2003
Jello,

Sorry to hear about your struggles. I think that a lot of people struggle similarly at different times in their life. I considered myself straight until age 26. Then I thought I was bi. Finally at at 29 (I'm 34 now) I figured out that while I sometimes have feelings of attraction for men, I really prefer to have sex and relationships with women. Like someone else mentioned above, I sometimes look at a guy and think "hmmm" until I think about him naked and think "no thanks".

For me it was a big deal to say "I'm a lesbian" and I felt uncomfortable with it for some time. Now I do call myself lesbian and feel comfortable doing so, but see it as a state of mind and see ambiguity in a lot of queer folks. I have dyke friends who call themselves dykes and yet will sometimes sleep with men. I have friends who call themselves bi but only sleep with same gender or opposite gender partners. I think what it boils down to is that you don't really need to label yourself until you feel comfortable doing so.

So my advice would be to follow your heart and if you want to call yourself bi and sleep with only men, then do it Nobody will be keeping track of who you are sleeping with and say "hey, you haven't slept with a woman in (fill in the blank) months!"

Good luck-
Cheryl

Posted: 30th Jan 2003

quote:

---

I've come out to only one family member, and even though that happened, geez, 6 months ago, I still get scared when I see him. It's my cousin, he's my age and we were great friends all my childhood. When I told him I could see in his eyes everything had changed. He said he didn't know me anymore, not really.

---

I just had to respond to that, because it made me so angry on your behalf. That statement about not knowing you anymore is the biggest load of manure ever. You are still you, the real you, the one you have always been. If he doesn't see that, he has never been able to see the real you.

Sometimes having a loved one come out to you does throw you for a time. You do start thinking "maybe I missed something?" But the smart compassionate ones in the world open their eyes a little wider and realise that the person is still the same one they cared about.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
Hey Jello...
In response to the stuff said previous about the sexuality of the Nativer American Indians - I taught a four week prac last year to years 7-11 and the study that I taught to the year 10 History class was Native American Indians...
At the conclusion of the study, for the last week they had to research the part of N.A.I culture that they found most interesting.
I was fascinated with the project that an openly bi male student chose - he did the sexuality and gender beliefs and customs the Great Plains Indians (something I had previously known basically nothing about and had only very lightly covered in class).
His finished project was mainly information that he had researched from the internet, so it shouldnt be too hard to look up if you type in keywords and stuff I guess.
Alternatively, if you really want to read about it I can ask him for a copy of his assignment when I go back to Uni....
It was pretty interesting reading and he put a lot of work into it - one of my best students over the month I was there.
Anywayz, keep smilin' - you obviously have tonnes of people that care about you and will listen if you need advice or just a chat
Rach

We all take different paths in life, but no matter which path we take, we take a little of each other everywhere...

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
i see a pattern here very too often with bi/gay men or women deciding to tell some one, wether it be a familly member or personal friend.
i seem to allways find "scared" in the very same sentance.
righ ok so your going to get labled, as human beings thats what we do, i am using a lable/s here [gay] but here goes your going to be a "fag", who cares your still you and they dont know you, so tough shite to them, their loss and we all love you gay or not gay your still you.
so why are we scared about teling familly and friends that were bi/gay? we should be proud about who we are. we normally cant wait to tell others about things we have done/found, so why not about this subject? well obviously not gonna jump around like you just found you can do that 3 beat weave but be more open.
why have gay pride when nearly every gay person is too scared to come out, then they do, then they go to gay pride and let how many thousands/milions of complete strangers know?.
right ok you get my point here and where i am coming from on this one.

so if we ignore all the labeling and concentrate on the scared part, i would be interested to find out what you guys have to add.

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
I have a few gay and bisexual friends. One of my friends was in a similar position to you. When I met him, I knew from the outset that he was bisexual. Later he decided that while he found women attractive, he was gay. We talked a lot about his decision and discussed what led him to this discussion. Later on we were sharing a bed as mates do and well lets say, his behaviour was not one of a man not interested in the body of a female. I felt quite uncomfortable with his behaviour (whether he was gay or straight, I was involved in a relationship and was not going to cheat) However it was clear that while he was generally more interested in sexual relationships with men, there is no mistaking me for anything other than female.


I think we all have the potential for bi-sexuality. I find women very attractive, but my sexual orientation is towards men. If I met a woman I liked and was not in a relationship I would be open-minded towards a relationship with a woman. My family would be a different story though I think it is easier for people to accept bi-sexuality as opposed to homosexuality as they hope you will end up married with 2 kids when you 'settle' down and meet the right partner (of the opposite sex).

I don't think you need to put yourself in a category by deciding if you are straight or gay. I don't think you need to feel uncomfortable about referring to yourself as bizexual. A word does not define who you are as long as you are true to yourself.

Whatever you decide to share with your family and friends you have the support of HoP

Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

Posted: 31st Jan 2003
Wow, this keeps on going, nice dialog

Smugs, I definitly understand what you're saying but I'll try to respond the way that makes sense to me. Why be scared to tell family members? Because, like it or not, they matter the most in our lives. Who are we without our family? How do we define ourselves? Alot of people look to their family, past, and heritage to understand who they are. And we need to have some understanding of who we are in connection to something greater.

That and there are some techinical details as well. Personally, if I tell my parents and they take it badly, I as a college student am risking alot. College is very pricey, even as an in state resident, and while I have saved money throughout my life, I would not be able to adequately fund my education at this point. Alot of other young people risk loosing everything this way as well.

The problem is we are told to be wary, that this is a big thing and has the potential for being bad. Who tells us this? People who have already come out, there are tons of horrible stories out there.

As for my cousin, don't quite know what to do about him. For a while I was simply scared of him. I'd avoid him like the plague, which he lives in the building next to me so it takes some effort. Now I simply don't care. I tell myself, whatever he does or does not do I could care less. Which is lie, he's still my cousin and I only wish the best for him, but I'm in a protective mode right now. Whats great is, as a family, I'll be going skiing with him in Colorado this spring break. We're all staying in the same lodge and will be eating dinner together and everything. Should be interesting.

And thanks Pyro_Tech, sounds like interesting research. One of my anthro profesors is also looking into that, we had a discussion and I asked her and she honestly didn't know but would like to.

So yeah, as to this labeling business, I'll just be whatever I'm comfortable with, I won't try to define myself by my sexuality unless the time comes where that seems comfortable to do. Once again, thanks all your HoPonians

[ 01. February 2003, 03:33: Message edited by: Jello ]

_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................

Posted: 1st Feb 2003
wow...hmm, not much to add that could top well above neh..create your own sexual revolution, enjoy it, and f**k the rest neh labels are alway bad, simply the tools of feeble minds to grasp what they do not comprehend, always..plz enjoy yourself, it is after all your world, believe it now or later

First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

Posted: 1st Feb 2003

quote:

---

Originally posted by musashii:
labels are alway bad

---

So are generalizations.
Non-Https Image Link

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura