Forums > Social Discussion > Respect
Login/Join to ParticipateShoryuken!
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
Posted:
RESPECT,
Davy
Written by:
Respect, by Eddie Stratton.
Don't ever worry that you have to earn respect - you are alive, you are a person, which means our respect for you is a given. Here is our perspective on 'earning respect': if you feel that respect must be earned then you have put the person you are 'earning' it from above you - which is actually impossible because we are all equal! That's anarchistic. That's equality.
You had our respect before we even knew you existed, just because you are alive. The guy who says 'you must earn my respect' is an arrogant man indeed - who the hell is he to judge you? Why should you work to impress his arbitrary morality? Ask yourself what you're doing accounting to him - he's on the same level!
Now, I used to think that you naturally had my respect until you lost it. Now I don't even think that! You have my respect, period. I don't care if you are Peter Sutcliffe, or John Wayne Gacy, you have my respect because you are a human being and you are alive.
Does that sound mad? Well let me explain. What you are and what you do are seperate issues. If you are a Nazi, and you like ice cream, Stevie Wonder songs and Star Wars, then I could quite happily spend a couple of hours in your company talking about George Lucas' inimitable genius, Motown classics, and the wonders of raspberry ripple. I might not find out that you are a member of Combat 18, and I would go away feeling that I had made a friend. Another day may come and I meet you again, wearing a Combat 18 T-Shirt - what do I do? Negate the conversation we had? Deny it ever happened? That day, I thought you were a good guy - and guess what? You were. Therefore, you still are; it's just some of your opinions and activities which I disagree with - so I want to change them. Today you are spreading a different message from the first time we met. So what do I do? Well, the first thing I do is find out about Combat 18, and why you support it. I find out what you know about fascism, and then I try to reason you out of the mindset.
Why do I do this? Because I respect you as yourself, I don't see you as a 'nazi', or some other 'label', I see you as a person, with some opinions which are fine and sociable, some opinions which are still fine that I don't share, and some opinions which are objectionable or antisocial which I feel that I could change for everyone's benefit. So I try to do that out of respect for you, for me and for society.
The worst thing I could do would be to hit you for being a nazi. Then we have two problems instead of one - you being a nazi, and me using unnecessary violence instead of reason. If the problem is that one of your views is a racist view, then that is what I will home in on - and try to change that view. That is because I respect you. I don't have to respect all your views, or all of your behaviour, and those views or behavioural aspects I don't respect it is my right to try to reason with you about, and your right to accept or reject my reasoning. No loss of respect is involved!
If I label you a shithead because of one aspect of your personality or actions, then I generalise myself out of a potentially fruitful friendship. I am not going to judge you according to your flaws - that is unfair. If I judge you at all, it will be inclusive of your good points as well as your bad ones!!
Something the great death row defense lawyer Clive Stafford Smith once said really hit home - he said "If we judge everyone by their worst day, none of us look very good."
I swear, even if I were in the same room as Hitler, I would try to talk with him, try to understand where he is at, try to find what he thinks, and I would do it with a view to changing his mind - he COULD have been an asset to us with his intelligence, his energy and his dynamism, but his bigotry got in the way - if only someone had respected him enough to change that.
So you never gain or lose our respect, you have it from the start, and it stays there to the end, whatever you do, whatever your opinions are, you remain worthy of respect just because you are alive.
That's anarchism in action! It just seems to be a saner way to think...
Eddie
RESPECT,
Davy
member
60 posts
Location: Birmingham
60 posts
Location: Birmingham
Posted:
reason with a member of combat 18?
sounds like a bunch of hippy bollocks to me im afraid
reason with a member of combat 18?
sounds like a bunch of hippy bollocks to me im afraid
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
Wow, if that isnt the biggest chunk of bollock I have ever read.
Wow, if that isnt the biggest chunk of bollock I have ever read.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I can recomend watching 'American History X' which covers some similar ideas regarding racist views and how they are aquired and can be overcome.
I can recomend watching 'American History X' which covers some similar ideas regarding racist views and how they are aquired and can be overcome.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Shoryuken!
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
Posted:
While with some people no amount of reasoning is ever going to change the way they think, the vast majority of us do have the desire to do what they think is right. Some fascists only join such groups because they genuinly enjoy kicking the [censored] out of people and stirring ruckus, but believe it or not most actually think that they are supporting a worthy cause (protecting their familly from 'dangerous' asylum seekers etc.)
If they can be shown that what they support is infact highly damaging, they are likely to change. The guy that wrote the above used to be a Scientologist (if you know what that is then you'll be damned suprised he wrote something like that) and so has had to experience firsthand the reversal of the effectivley brainwashing tactics used by many such radical groups, of which Combat 18 and the Scientologits are just a couple.
Did you see that program recently with the ex-nazi bomber talking to the people from the village he bombed? Its not once a nazi always a nazi, once a catholic always a catholic, once Margret Thatcher always Margret Thatcher - brainwashing can be, and is being undone all the time.
But most people don't bother trying, most people are content to let things drop, however damaging the consequences, and thats one of the main reasons that our world has been so badly screwed over.
Respect
Davy
Written by:
reason with a member of combat 18?
sounds like a bunch of hippy bollocks to me im afraid
While with some people no amount of reasoning is ever going to change the way they think, the vast majority of us do have the desire to do what they think is right. Some fascists only join such groups because they genuinly enjoy kicking the [censored] out of people and stirring ruckus, but believe it or not most actually think that they are supporting a worthy cause (protecting their familly from 'dangerous' asylum seekers etc.)
If they can be shown that what they support is infact highly damaging, they are likely to change. The guy that wrote the above used to be a Scientologist (if you know what that is then you'll be damned suprised he wrote something like that) and so has had to experience firsthand the reversal of the effectivley brainwashing tactics used by many such radical groups, of which Combat 18 and the Scientologits are just a couple.
Did you see that program recently with the ex-nazi bomber talking to the people from the village he bombed? Its not once a nazi always a nazi, once a catholic always a catholic, once Margret Thatcher always Margret Thatcher - brainwashing can be, and is being undone all the time.
But most people don't bother trying, most people are content to let things drop, however damaging the consequences, and thats one of the main reasons that our world has been so badly screwed over.
Respect
Davy
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
Hrm, Respect I have always thought of it as something earned. While granted there is a level of respect that you give everyone, it is still something that to be obtained in quantity, you must earn it.
Hrm, Respect I have always thought of it as something earned. While granted there is a level of respect that you give everyone, it is still something that to be obtained in quantity, you must earn it.
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Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
Posted:
hmmm...going by this reasoning though wouldn't you think that while you, out of respect for the other person, are trying to change their train of thought, they would be also trying to change your train of thought out of respect for you....if that is the case then wouldn't it just be like going around in one vicious circle.
Quite frankly anyone who tells me that they are a neo-nazi in todays day and age (and yes I have met a couple) would know exactly the hate they are generating. Therefore, there is no way I would try to reason with anyone with that much hatred in their heart a nd mind.
hmmm...going by this reasoning though wouldn't you think that while you, out of respect for the other person, are trying to change their train of thought, they would be also trying to change your train of thought out of respect for you....if that is the case then wouldn't it just be like going around in one vicious circle.
Quite frankly anyone who tells me that they are a neo-nazi in todays day and age (and yes I have met a couple) would know exactly the hate they are generating. Therefore, there is no way I would try to reason with anyone with that much hatred in their heart a nd mind.
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
Life is a vicious circle, is it not?
Life is a vicious circle, is it not?
SILVER Member
Intrepid Penguin
5,635 posts
Location: Australia
Intrepid Penguin
5,635 posts
Location: Australia
Posted:
Damn straight!!!
Why dont you spend a minute asking WHY that person has that hate in their heart. Were they raised to believe not all people are equal? Is there something you can do to challenge that racist belief or help change the situation?
I'm with Davy on this one.
This is a great thread, thankyou for putting it up Davy!
Written by: nilid69
I don't have to respect all your views, or all of your behaviour, and those views or behavioural aspects I don't respect it is my right to try to reason with you about, and your right to accept or reject my reasoning.
Damn straight!!!
Why dont you spend a minute asking WHY that person has that hate in their heart. Were they raised to believe not all people are equal? Is there something you can do to challenge that racist belief or help change the situation?
I'm with Davy on this one.
This is a great thread, thankyou for putting it up Davy!
Currently on the right side up of the world.
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
Hey Flynt, his argument goes both ways, the racist has the right to convert you to his cause, the same as you have the right to reason him out of his.
Hey Flynt, his argument goes both ways, the racist has the right to convert you to his cause, the same as you have the right to reason him out of his.
SILVER Member
Intrepid Penguin
5,635 posts
Location: Australia
Intrepid Penguin
5,635 posts
Location: Australia
Posted:
yep, and I have the right to disagree with his cause when he tries to reason to me about it.
Just because someone believes different things, is NOT an excuse to give them the respect that they, as a fellow human being, deserve.
yep, and I have the right to disagree with his cause when he tries to reason to me about it.
Just because someone believes different things, is NOT an excuse to give them the respect that they, as a fellow human being, deserve.
Currently on the right side up of the world.
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
There are moral absolutes for a reason, beliefs or not.
There are moral absolutes for a reason, beliefs or not.
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
And you find it so important that you try your hardest not to earn any? Burz you're probably the most thoughtless and offensive poster I've seen in my short time within this board. So much so there were problems caused by you for many people here and you were made aware of it.
You say
....and it seems your trying to make it even more vicious, and if you're not, you're doing a bad job of it. Please try to be more positive or at least nicer to folks, you certainly take offense when some says something against your beliefs so please think before you hit that "add post" button.
Davy, I understand your post 100%, only agree with 90% of it but I hear where you're coming from. If we all thought along those lines we'd be in a much happier place
Written by: Burz
Respect I have always thought of it as something earned. While granted there is a level of respect that you give everyone, it is still something that to be obtained in quantity, you must earn it
And you find it so important that you try your hardest not to earn any? Burz you're probably the most thoughtless and offensive poster I've seen in my short time within this board. So much so there were problems caused by you for many people here and you were made aware of it.
You say
Written by: Burz
Wow, if that isnt the biggest chunk of bollock I have ever read
&
Life is a vicious circle
....and it seems your trying to make it even more vicious, and if you're not, you're doing a bad job of it. Please try to be more positive or at least nicer to folks, you certainly take offense when some says something against your beliefs so please think before you hit that "add post" button.
Davy, I understand your post 100%, only agree with 90% of it but I hear where you're coming from. If we all thought along those lines we'd be in a much happier place
Let's relight this forum 
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
i'll second what custom says about that quote, and expand what i think about it, which i had actually done, but IE killed *shakes fist at monopolised browser*
mainly its to do with respect and changing peoples views and opinions.
**please note, i in no way support nazism, neo-nazism, or any other facist regime. except for the fact that hitler got germany on its feet again. but thats another topic for another day and another thread**
If, in the example given,
just some of your opinions and activities which I disagree with - so I want to change them. Today you are spreading a different message from the first time we met. So what do I do? Well, the first thing I do is find out about Combat 18, and why you support it. I find out what you know about fascism, and then I try to reason you out of the mindset.
Why do I do this? Because I respect you as yourself, I don't see you as a 'nazi', or some other 'label', I see you as a person, with some opinions which are fine and sociable, some opinions which are still fine that I don't share, and some opinions which are objectionable or antisocial which I feel that I could change for everyone's benefit. So I try to do that out of respect for you, for me and for society.
Ok, so i respect someone, and try to change a view that I disagree with, then where is the respect for who that person is, and what they hold dear?
One example have of this is a fight i had with someone. i wanted to do something, and they didnt want me to. ok, fair enough, i can handle that. but when they started saying 'i dont want you to do that because i care about you', i started thinking. why is it that people care enough to try to change my view, but dont care enough to let me have that view, that opinion?
I admit, if i met someone like the guy in the example, i would try to reason him out of his beleifs, because i think they're wrong. yep, i admit that i just contradicted myself. Its human nature to try and correct what we think is wrong. be it nazism, a bad signal on the tv, someones haircut we dont like. i can see why people do so, i do it myself, and so i cant really expect others not to, but i guess thats part of human nature too.
I suppose the point im trying to get at here, is that, in my book, it shows more respect to someone if youlet them have their views and their opinions, whether you think they are right or not.
if you were to suddenly find yourself in a massive group of neo-nazis, then chances are, you would find that they think your non neo-nazi beleifs are wrong, and try to change them. they disagree with them, and their society disagrees with them. In that case, who are we to say that because there are more non neo-nazis than there are neo-nazis, that what they hold dear is wrong?
If everyone was to try to change what someone thinks about something, because they thought it was wrong, where would we be? if people said to nelson mandela 'no, aparthied (sp?) works, leave it alone,' and he did, where would south africa be? if people said 'no, i dont think that you should spin those fiery things around your head,' where would hop be?
in a way, society needs people that think different to everyone else. society needs those that dont change the way they look at life and the problems and issues it throws up. and society needs people that respect those people for those different points of view, and dont try to change them.
i hope that makes sense, and gets my point across.
i'll second what custom says about that quote, and expand what i think about it, which i had actually done, but IE killed *shakes fist at monopolised browser*
mainly its to do with respect and changing peoples views and opinions.
**please note, i in no way support nazism, neo-nazism, or any other facist regime. except for the fact that hitler got germany on its feet again. but thats another topic for another day and another thread**
If, in the example given,
just some of your opinions and activities which I disagree with - so I want to change them. Today you are spreading a different message from the first time we met. So what do I do? Well, the first thing I do is find out about Combat 18, and why you support it. I find out what you know about fascism, and then I try to reason you out of the mindset.
Why do I do this? Because I respect you as yourself, I don't see you as a 'nazi', or some other 'label', I see you as a person, with some opinions which are fine and sociable, some opinions which are still fine that I don't share, and some opinions which are objectionable or antisocial which I feel that I could change for everyone's benefit. So I try to do that out of respect for you, for me and for society.
Ok, so i respect someone, and try to change a view that I disagree with, then where is the respect for who that person is, and what they hold dear?
One example have of this is a fight i had with someone. i wanted to do something, and they didnt want me to. ok, fair enough, i can handle that. but when they started saying 'i dont want you to do that because i care about you', i started thinking. why is it that people care enough to try to change my view, but dont care enough to let me have that view, that opinion?
I admit, if i met someone like the guy in the example, i would try to reason him out of his beleifs, because i think they're wrong. yep, i admit that i just contradicted myself. Its human nature to try and correct what we think is wrong. be it nazism, a bad signal on the tv, someones haircut we dont like. i can see why people do so, i do it myself, and so i cant really expect others not to, but i guess thats part of human nature too.
I suppose the point im trying to get at here, is that, in my book, it shows more respect to someone if youlet them have their views and their opinions, whether you think they are right or not.
if you were to suddenly find yourself in a massive group of neo-nazis, then chances are, you would find that they think your non neo-nazi beleifs are wrong, and try to change them. they disagree with them, and their society disagrees with them. In that case, who are we to say that because there are more non neo-nazis than there are neo-nazis, that what they hold dear is wrong?
If everyone was to try to change what someone thinks about something, because they thought it was wrong, where would we be? if people said to nelson mandela 'no, aparthied (sp?) works, leave it alone,' and he did, where would south africa be? if people said 'no, i dont think that you should spin those fiery things around your head,' where would hop be?
in a way, society needs people that think different to everyone else. society needs those that dont change the way they look at life and the problems and issues it throws up. and society needs people that respect those people for those different points of view, and dont try to change them.
i hope that makes sense, and gets my point across.
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
SILVER Member
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
Posted:
Hey I don't want to get personally attacked for my post...I didn't once say that I wouldn't respect the person as a person....
I stated that I would not try to reason with that person...
Please read my entire post before going on attack...
I thought this board was about respect so maybe we should all just respect that someone is entitled to their own opinion.
Hey I don't want to get personally attacked for my post...I didn't once say that I wouldn't respect the person as a person....
I stated that I would not try to reason with that person...
Please read my entire post before going on attack...
I thought this board was about respect so maybe we should all just respect that someone is entitled to their own opinion.
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
medusa, if thats aimed at me, i wasnt aiming at you, it was in general, and i apologise if you took offense to it. if its not, then, umm, err. hmm.
try talking it over with the person in question via PM, then, if that fails to resolve the issue, see the mods.
This is a thread with, i think, a fair bit of potential, so can we try not to have it dissolve into a 'he said, she said' argument.
If whoever the comment was aimed at knows who they are (i read through it, and i cant pick it up), then have a quiet, friendly chat over pms and some tea and scones, and try to come out of it friends. or at least not bitter enemies with a penchant for flaming each other.
and with that hopefully friendship spreading message, lets discuss
medusa, if thats aimed at me, i wasnt aiming at you, it was in general, and i apologise if you took offense to it. if its not, then, umm, err. hmm.
try talking it over with the person in question via PM, then, if that fails to resolve the issue, see the mods.
This is a thread with, i think, a fair bit of potential, so can we try not to have it dissolve into a 'he said, she said' argument.
If whoever the comment was aimed at knows who they are (i read through it, and i cant pick it up), then have a quiet, friendly chat over pms and some tea and scones, and try to come out of it friends. or at least not bitter enemies with a penchant for flaming each other.
and with that hopefully friendship spreading message, lets discuss
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
How is it arrongant to have people earn your respect? Are you the type of person who trusts others blindly, for isnt trst a form of respect?
Here I have $100, you are a homeless man, starving, will you hold this for me while I go to my vacation home in New Zealand for the some skiing and snowboarding?
No that isn't arrogance, nor is that what the author of the article means. The basic respect that we should have for all people no matter what, to say you must earn that, now that is arrogance.
If your view is hurtfull to yourself and possibly others, why would someone who respects you and cares for you not try to change your view?
Take my friend who is a cutter, should I let her continue cutting so that she may obtain the momentary stress relief that is the physical pain, only to have the emotional pain come storming back when the physical pain subsides? Or should I try to change her mind about what she is doing?
What option leads to more respect, more careing? And why?
I can understand that some views should not be changed, however, via this article is it not everyones right to change everyone?
Hence the phrase, life is a vicious cycle, and this is a complete bullok. Because this article contradicts itself.
I say that because what I take from this article is, "I have the right to change you and you have the right to change me but you have to respect me and my views and thus cant change me and I must do the same for you."
Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt that a contradiction, isnt that bullok, isnt that a vicious cycle?
I'm no expert on anything, but to me it just doesn't add up.
How is it arrongant to have people earn your respect? Are you the type of person who trusts others blindly, for isnt trst a form of respect?
Here I have $100, you are a homeless man, starving, will you hold this for me while I go to my vacation home in New Zealand for the some skiing and snowboarding?
No that isn't arrogance, nor is that what the author of the article means. The basic respect that we should have for all people no matter what, to say you must earn that, now that is arrogance.
If your view is hurtfull to yourself and possibly others, why would someone who respects you and cares for you not try to change your view?
Take my friend who is a cutter, should I let her continue cutting so that she may obtain the momentary stress relief that is the physical pain, only to have the emotional pain come storming back when the physical pain subsides? Or should I try to change her mind about what she is doing?
What option leads to more respect, more careing? And why?
I can understand that some views should not be changed, however, via this article is it not everyones right to change everyone?
Hence the phrase, life is a vicious cycle, and this is a complete bullok. Because this article contradicts itself.
I say that because what I take from this article is, "I have the right to change you and you have the right to change me but you have to respect me and my views and thus cant change me and I must do the same for you."
Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt that a contradiction, isnt that bullok, isnt that a vicious cycle?
I'm no expert on anything, but to me it just doesn't add up.
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veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
veteran
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia
Posted:
MiG it was not aimed at you at all...
I haven't taken offense I just think that maybe before judging people should read what was written first before posting something that can potentially be taken offensively.
I am sorry to anyone who thinks I am angry...please believe I am not...just want people to understand that the way my post was given is obviously not the way it was received.
MiG it was not aimed at you at all...
I haven't taken offense I just think that maybe before judging people should read what was written first before posting something that can potentially be taken offensively.
I am sorry to anyone who thinks I am angry...please believe I am not...just want people to understand that the way my post was given is obviously not the way it was received.
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
no probs, i just wanted to make sure i hadnt annoyed the crap out of someone. specially a fellow aussie
.
Burz, i think that the article is saying more that if we all respected one another as people, then the world would be better. if you didnt look at someone and see 'gay', 'straight', 'black', 'white', 'nazi', 'jew', 'whatever', but saw whatever person you were looking at as a bipedal carbon based life form, usually between 120 and 200 cm tall, and respected that life form for the fact that it was just that, a life form, then it would make life that much better.
take your homeless man, for example. ok, so we shouldnt just give people in that sort of situation money, its bound to get spent. but if we took the time and the effort to talk to them, get to know them, then perhaps we could trust them.
on trust, yes, trust is important, and generally if you respect someone, you trust them, but its not a definite thing. joe on the street may not respect a cop for the fact that they are a cop, but chances are, they will trust that cop to do what's right, be it save them from a theif or whatever.
hmm. at risk of this actually being coherent and understandable, i'll try it this way.
you, as i have gathered, are a pretty religious person. all right, i have no problem with that. personally, im an atheist, or agnostic, or whatever it is that doesnt really care about deities.
Say we were to meet, maybe waiting for a train, or on a bus or something. we get talking, i find out you're into. so we can have a discussion about that. lets say, for arguments sake, that you think bitumen is really, really cool. its the coolest thing on earth. so we have a discussion about bitumen, how really really cool it is.
then, we get to talking about religion. you reveal that you are very bible oriented, i reveal that i couldnt really give a damn either way. which, in and of itself, is all good. its something that we dont both agree on, which happens. hey, if everyone thought the same as everyone else, life would be boring. anyway. out of the respect we each have for each other, having met, deduced that the other person isnt just waiting for a chance to rip the spleen out of oneself, and deciding they're not a bad bloke after all, according to the article, is fine. you have your view, i've got mine.
if, however, i was a full on neo nazi, as the example goes, and that was the only difference n my personality, then out of the respect that you have for me, being a fellow bipedal life form, and not a bad bloke at that, have every right to try to change my view on that. it is a dysfunctional way of doing things, and its not a particularly nice thing for the rest of society. so you have every right to try to change my view on that. That, i think, is what the article is saying.
however, my view, is that while maintaining that level of respect, you would show more of it by letting me have my views. you may strongly disagree with those views, but in return, i may strongly disagree with you not being a neo nazi. according to my hypothetical beleifs, you're wrong, and im right. course, we all know this isnt true, but according to that hypothetical skinhead, it is.
so, while i have every right to try to change your beleifs, you have every right to try to change mine. But, if i were to meet you as i am right now, a strong agnosticy atheisty whatever it is that i am, while i have every right to try and move your views into line with my own, i think that it shows more respect for you to let you have your own beleifs.
as for your cutting friend, thats really a different kettle of fish. that is something that is quite definitely and obviously doing harm to that person, and is the result of some deep emotional/psychological issue.
hope that made sense.
no probs, i just wanted to make sure i hadnt annoyed the crap out of someone. specially a fellow aussie
.Burz, i think that the article is saying more that if we all respected one another as people, then the world would be better. if you didnt look at someone and see 'gay', 'straight', 'black', 'white', 'nazi', 'jew', 'whatever', but saw whatever person you were looking at as a bipedal carbon based life form, usually between 120 and 200 cm tall, and respected that life form for the fact that it was just that, a life form, then it would make life that much better.
take your homeless man, for example. ok, so we shouldnt just give people in that sort of situation money, its bound to get spent. but if we took the time and the effort to talk to them, get to know them, then perhaps we could trust them.
on trust, yes, trust is important, and generally if you respect someone, you trust them, but its not a definite thing. joe on the street may not respect a cop for the fact that they are a cop, but chances are, they will trust that cop to do what's right, be it save them from a theif or whatever.
hmm. at risk of this actually being coherent and understandable, i'll try it this way.
you, as i have gathered, are a pretty religious person. all right, i have no problem with that. personally, im an atheist, or agnostic, or whatever it is that doesnt really care about deities.
Say we were to meet, maybe waiting for a train, or on a bus or something. we get talking, i find out you're into
then, we get to talking about religion. you reveal that you are very bible oriented, i reveal that i couldnt really give a damn either way. which, in and of itself, is all good. its something that we dont both agree on, which happens. hey, if everyone thought the same as everyone else, life would be boring. anyway. out of the respect we each have for each other, having met, deduced that the other person isnt just waiting for a chance to rip the spleen out of oneself, and deciding they're not a bad bloke after all, according to the article, is fine. you have your view, i've got mine.
if, however, i was a full on neo nazi, as the example goes, and that was the only difference n my personality, then out of the respect that you have for me, being a fellow bipedal life form, and not a bad bloke at that, have every right to try to change my view on that. it is a dysfunctional way of doing things, and its not a particularly nice thing for the rest of society. so you have every right to try to change my view on that. That, i think, is what the article is saying.
however, my view, is that while maintaining that level of respect, you would show more of it by letting me have my views. you may strongly disagree with those views, but in return, i may strongly disagree with you not being a neo nazi. according to my hypothetical beleifs, you're wrong, and im right. course, we all know this isnt true, but according to that hypothetical skinhead, it is.
so, while i have every right to try to change your beleifs, you have every right to try to change mine. But, if i were to meet you as i am right now, a strong agnosticy atheisty whatever it is that i am, while i have every right to try and move your views into line with my own, i think that it shows more respect for you to let you have your own beleifs.
as for your cutting friend, thats really a different kettle of fish. that is something that is quite definitely and obviously doing harm to that person, and is the result of some deep emotional/psychological issue.
hope that made sense.
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
Shoryuken!
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
Posted:
Why have you taken that from the article? It doesn't say that anyones views ought to be respected, and it doesn't say that no-one can be changed. So, um....
MIG, you say that if everyone was always trying to change everyone elses beliefs to bring them in line with their own, things would not be good. That would probably be true if people just argued for what they liked, and against what they disliked, but with rational debate I don't think thats the case.
Yeah, they would find my beliefs wrong, and they would have every right to try and change my views through rational debate. Nazi's aren't wrong because there aren't very many of them anymore, they are wrong because white people aren't racially superior. The reason that there are a lot less Nazi's around nowadays isn't because they don't spread their message much anymore, but because most people are now well-informed enough to see it for the racist BS it is.
Same with your poi example, let them say "I don't think you should do that" then I will debate with them, and try to convince them that I should. If their arguments are better reasoned than mine, then it probably is better that I stop. If not, on I go.
Written by:
I can understand that some views should not be changed, however, via this article is it not everyones right to change everyone?
Hence the phrase, life is a vicious cycle, and this is a complete bullok. Because this article contradicts itself.
I say that because what I take from this article is, "I have the right to change you and you have the right to change me but you have to respect me and my views and thus cant change me and I must do the same for you."
Why have you taken that from the article? It doesn't say that anyones views ought to be respected, and it doesn't say that no-one can be changed. So, um....
MIG, you say that if everyone was always trying to change everyone elses beliefs to bring them in line with their own, things would not be good. That would probably be true if people just argued for what they liked, and against what they disliked, but with rational debate I don't think thats the case.
Written by:
If you were to suddenly find yourself in a massive group of neo-nazis, then chances are, you would find that they think your non neo-nazi beleifs are wrong, and try to change them. they disagree with them, and their society disagrees with them. In that case, who are we to say that because there are more non neo-nazis than there are neo-nazis, that what they hold dear is wrong?
Yeah, they would find my beliefs wrong, and they would have every right to try and change my views through rational debate. Nazi's aren't wrong because there aren't very many of them anymore, they are wrong because white people aren't racially superior. The reason that there are a lot less Nazi's around nowadays isn't because they don't spread their message much anymore, but because most people are now well-informed enough to see it for the racist BS it is.
Same with your poi example, let them say "I don't think you should do that" then I will debate with them, and try to convince them that I should. If their arguments are better reasoned than mine, then it probably is better that I stop. If not, on I go.
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
yeah, the neo-nazi group was only used because it is an easy to use example. you can put any group in there that you want, really.
yeah, the neo-nazi group was only used because it is an easy to use example. you can put any group in there that you want, really.
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
SILVER Member
Intrepid Penguin
5,635 posts
Location: Australia
Intrepid Penguin
5,635 posts
Location: Australia
Posted:
Medusa honey, I dont think anyone has read your post as being an angry post. I dont think anyone here is judging what you said as wrong. I sure didnt! xoxoxox
Medusa honey, I dont think anyone has read your post as being an angry post. I dont think anyone here is judging what you said as wrong. I sure didnt! xoxoxox
Currently on the right side up of the world.
BRONZE Member
Living it up
363 posts
Location: Brisbane/Berlin, Australia
Living it up
363 posts
Location: Brisbane/Berlin, Australia
Posted:
Wow... Sorry to quote a quote of a quote of a quote, but I really like that a lot.
Thanks for sharing nilid69
Written by: nilid69
Respect, by Eddie Stratton.
Something the great death row defense lawyer Clive Stafford Smith once said really hit home - he said "If we judge everyone by their worst day, none of us look very good."
Wow... Sorry to quote a quote of a quote of a quote, but I really like that a lot.
Thanks for sharing nilid69
Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Then again, some look considerably worse than others.
I'd argue that my worst day doesn't look as bad as, for example, Fred Wests worst day.
Written by: nilid69
Respect, by Eddie Stratton.
Something the great death row defense lawyer Clive Stafford Smith once said really hit home - he said "If we judge everyone by their worst day, none of us look very good."
Then again, some look considerably worse than others.
I'd argue that my worst day doesn't look as bad as, for example, Fred Wests worst day.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
God's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion
Posted:
but by trying to get them to change, are you not DISRESPECTING them in a way???
several god points, and well thought out, but in my view, not realistic.....its right in the fact that respect shpuld not have to be earned, however, it can be lost, if you harm me our my family, i no longer respect you or your choices.....but still a good thought
k bye
but by trying to get them to change, are you not DISRESPECTING them in a way???
several god points, and well thought out, but in my view, not realistic.....its right in the fact that respect shpuld not have to be earned, however, it can be lost, if you harm me our my family, i no longer respect you or your choices.....but still a good thought
k bye
You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
Ah but that's only in your eyes. Sick as it is he and rosemary were probably having a great time
Written by: OWD
I'd argue that my worst day doesn't look as bad as, for example, Fred Wests worst day
Ah but that's only in your eyes. Sick as it is he and rosemary were probably having a great time
Let's relight this forum
Shoryuken!
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
Posted:
Harrowing.
Harrowing.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
No way! It's not just in my eyes, it's objective fact (IMO)
No one behaves like that unless they are severely twisted.
And I'd dispute that they enjoyed any of it; maybe in some way it temporarily numbed whatever pain they had inside, but that's not enjoyment.
Written by: Custom Bug
Ah but that's only in your eyes. Sick as it is he and rosemary were probably having a great time
No way! It's not just in my eyes, it's objective fact (IMO)
No one behaves like that unless they are severely twisted.
And I'd dispute that they enjoyed any of it; maybe in some way it temporarily numbed whatever pain they had inside, but that's not enjoyment.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
Just because to the majority its sick and twisted doesn't mean it is to some individuals. Just like fighting and robbing. (no that isn't a comparison
) Even if they accept the popular beleif its sick they often do it for pleasure. Sad but true.
but anyway, enough hijacking for now
Just because to the majority its sick and twisted doesn't mean it is to some individuals. Just like fighting and robbing. (no that isn't a comparison
) Even if they accept the popular beleif its sick they often do it for pleasure. Sad but true.but anyway, enough hijacking for now
Let's relight this forum
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Interesting ...
*bump*
I agree with Eddie's statement (IP).
If you happen to eat some dish and find it delicious, would you get sick and puke if you found out about the (disgusting) contents?
Respect is something a (human) being should provide to another (human) being for being human. Nothing more, nothing less.
IMHO not doing so simply means to disrespect ones self. Then: if you have no respect for yourself - how can other people truly respect you for anything (that you are NOT)?
Interesting ...
*bump*
I agree with Eddie's statement (IP).
If you happen to eat some dish and find it delicious, would you get sick and puke if you found out about the (disgusting) contents?
Respect is something a (human) being should provide to another (human) being for being human. Nothing more, nothing less.
IMHO not doing so simply means to disrespect ones self. Then: if you have no respect for yourself - how can other people truly respect you for anything (that you are NOT)?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
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