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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:This topic is aimed at an issue not a person or people, though it may get bumpy. Lets have some fun with this one though.


Alot of posters here like to protest governments especially when it comes to war. Pres. Bush and PM Blair got a lot of flack on this board when the call was made to go into Iraq, heck way before the call was made for that matter. In fact millions of people around the world protested the war. However, are they really protesting the right people?

Do you really have the right to protest anything?

I would like to propose something that is quite frankly off the wall.

For those who have the heart ot protest, why dont you protest governmetns like N. Korea, China, the warlords in Somalia...?

I would really like to see some lagitamate answers here.

What stops you from protesting them?

If you did protest them, what would you do?

Why are you not willing to protest over civil rights in prodominently muslim countries?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:simply because they don't claim to represent me.

each country's government is there to represent it's people.
if i feel i am being misrepresented on an issue, i will protest.

but i've expressed my feelings on this once before - that's all i care to reiterate.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Hey Ray,

I think many of the people on this board have protested for a long while over a lot of things, the Chinese and their vision of the 'Motherland' as their minister of foreign affairs refers to it, its treatment of people of Tibet and Taiwanese, and US gov reluctance to help Taiwan after arming them.

Korea is another very messy issue. Who would have thought that the Koreans hatred of the US would overtake their hatred of Japan? Many of the Koreans I know sadly blame the US and the western world for the divide over their country. A friend of mine was making a documentary in North Korea recently, quite worried for him

I protested against the US proposed missile defence system.

Remember the email circulating years ago petitioning the US government to help the women opressed under the taliban? Nothing was done until the US was attacked People protested. People have been protesting for yonks about Mugabe.

People protest constantly about the atrocities committed by dictators and warlords.

I protest at the war in my own country and denouce the acts of violence by people fighting for Ireland in my name. I met a gentleman from Kashmir who called me his 'sister', as he felt he could identify with our two countries. I don't take sides anymore, I think fighting is futile.

I don't organise rallys or go on marches or sign petitions to protest everything I am 'against'. My voice is small and not very powerful in the grand scheme of things, maybe that is an excuse but there is so much injustice in the World it is hard to fight it all. I do sign petitions for causes I believe in and inform friends about world news that affects me.

The protest against the war in Iraq was huge, but rather than seeing it as a negative, why not see it as a positive. So many people were fighting for a peaceful resolution. Remember the war was to find 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' not save the people of Iraq from Saddam.

There were lots of protests in UK in May - the Anti Capatalism protest which I did not join as not only was I home sick in bed but I don't think my boss would be too happy about me waving a placard outside our office The Cannabis March and Fesitval was on a couple of weeks ago also.

I'm not going to start chaining myself to the gates outside parliment. I'm not going to stand in front of a bulldozer. I am most certainly not going to protest by blowing myself up and killing innocent citizens around me.

Yep! I'm a coward and am selfishly getting on with living the life that I have, complaining about my own problems, which are truly insignificant compared to the people who I try to help by signing a petition or throwing a few coins in a collection box.

The first time I protested against something was in secondary (high) school when our toilet paper was replaced by some transparant scratchy greasproof paper. I circulated petitions around and there was an overt wet paper ceiling bombing operation underway also (which I was not responsible for alas). We won our protest and our soft bottoms were protected!!!

The scale of the protests against the war in Iraq was comparable to that of the Vietnam war, that is not to say that people have not protested since. They just have been overshadowed, the media in many ways is responsible for this. Similarly, aid to other charities helping people in third world has decreased since the Iraqi war.

I think it is sad that the UN has no credibilty left. Before the Iraq war, the UN were the hope for protesters that somewhere there was a body who cared about change for the good of the people.

I don't believe the Irish or British or US or any government gives a sh@t about me, or you or anyone else. We are mere statistics and important only when it comes to election time imo.

Sorry - incoherent ramblings. My point is, people are protesting, its just been a long time since there was such a huge collective of people gathering to have their voices heard which seems to have overshadowed other issues or indeed made it appear that people don't protest.


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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King Of Bongo


King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 522
Posted:Agree with coleman:
-Not my government,
-not my "leader",
-no chance I could be heard enough by anyone who cares to influence them,
-its their country, their traditions and their culture
-they're not killing anyone/committing genocide
-Unfortunately in such cases it's none of your business to tell other people how they should live/what they should believe in (against all the regime changing the US so loves).
-Lots of the women are actually happy (even if only because they have not seen better)

once you're onto this the topic gets very slippery, in a way I think it should be people changing the system from inside... its up to them really. With things like women's rights, nowadays this comes with time and subtle influence, not force.

-from what I have seen of the country, turkey is an example, set to join the EU, the nearer part of the country (mainly Istanbul&west side of the bosphorous) is fairly "modern" in its views, women do and dress the way they want, whereas on the other side it gets increasingly traditional with women covering themselves up entirely/given little opportunity for education etc.
I think once it becomes "part of Europe" so to speak it will become increasingly "westernised" and women will finally be truly granted their freedom, although this will come at the expense of many (and not all bad) traditions.

Big YES- I have the right as a free citizen to
protest anything I want.

Off to revise once more.

PS don't know how I would protest if I so chose, but for the moment its such a mixed issue for me that I don't think I could. I believe in equality of the sexes, but most of them don't, and its not just the men.


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Coleman, if you read my post you would see that I took it down to ease tensions that were really high. Dispite your opinion on the matter, what I say here is the fact.

So onto the topic. I am glad that you all replied. I dont agree, and I'll tell you why...

It may not be your government, but it is your planet.

It may not be your war, but its still people.

Why cry about the starving children and ignore the sins of the government?

Why would you care if they did commit geoncyde? Saddam did it in 95 but there was no world protest then!

The only reason why you dont have the chance is because you want take it.

If you do nothing then your success rate is 0%, end of story.


World outcry is what can change things, it is your business how PEOPLE are treated!

What matters more, people being happy or people being treated right and fairly?


Yes you do have the right to protest anything, so why dont you do it?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:fair play for trying again with this ray.

i just feel that as tempers may flare in here too, i don't see much point in investing my time and expressing my opinions like i did on the other thread - if tension builds up you could well decide to just delete this one too.
hopefully it will remain civil; i just won't be around to see it

happy debating everyone.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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SmallBoy - x


SmallBoy - x

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London

Total posts: 2737
Posted:Ahhh ya bitches.........Cole, here's another dummy to replace the one Ray threw out of his pram earlier .

I agree with Ray (partially and subjectively obviously - ), we should protest other governments on masse.....it wont get us anywhere, i mean hell......it doesn't get us anywhere when we protest to the people we legitimately voted in to represent us........why the **** would someopne elses government give a fukc.......but all the same it should be done, or the rest of the world can say we did nothing.

Who's worse then?

One small party of leaders that inflict pain and misery on the masses or 95% of the population that had the power to change it and did nothing?

I'd have a tough time calling that one, and I don't think it's the right of a different (more powerful or whatever) government to inflict its views on another culture just because it's "for the best", without consulting the people that were chosen by the people. (which is what we did)

Also Ray......don't critisise other cultures just because their different. (And that's what you're doing when naming muslim issues)

Being Muslim is not a race thing, it's a chosen path. It's a BELIEF (sorry did anyone else miss that one) not a power....and if they want to live in a way that differs to ours then **** man, you haven't got the right to invade their country to "set it straight".

Personally Ray.....how many Muslim women have you asked whether or not they enjoy their way of life?

I hate people getting involved in issues they
know nothing about. Things like that wind me up. From my point of view it's the same as people jumping up and down for "womens rights", "gay rights", "black rights" etc when they haven't got any idea what the views are of the people they're trying to represent.

From experience, half the people that are "really offended" (even sadly, (and I repeat sadly) by some of the people on this board) by stuff, they've got no right to even be involved..........and some of the time (MP's etc especially) are doing it to try and gain popularity amongst the people they've actually got no interest in back.


Small Lardy Person In Disguise

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Though my views on the Iraq conflict could definitely be considered pro-war, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and agree with some of the earlier statements about the "not my government" philosphy.

We protest because we have the power to, and because we were told years ago during the formation of our democracy that it protesting cn actually accomplish something. However, the regimes that butcher, harass and mistreat their own people laugh at this sort of belief. We could protest all we want, but their leaders would laugh at us. Their people could be motivated to revolt for their own best interests, but the system is so strong in those countries that resistance is futile and anyone speaking out would more than likely be exposed by their own neighbors as insurrectionists. They live in what is truly a hopeless situation.

One thing about the rights in "predominately Muslim countries" - it's maybe a bit stereotypical to portray all followers of Islam as oppressive toward women. The Taliban was criticized as an *extremist* faction of Islam and that should be noted.

What we've commonly observed are "peace" protestors, a group which protests war and only war. If you're looking for a group that protests mistreatment of humans, or oppression of women, you might have better luck with groups like Green Peace or NOW... "Humanitarian" and "Civil Rights" groups. Not to say that peace protestors don't understand humanitarian causes, it's just not the primary focus of their message.

Here is where I get a little bit controversial

I believe the majority of the peace protesting went on because of reasons that aren't exactly solid. Many protestors I believe went out there because they felt the American President "stole" the election from the guy they wanted in office (Theoretically this could be slightly more than half of America). Controversial President = Controversial Presidential decisions. They won't agree with him no matter what he does, and when he does something right they'll attribute it to one of his staff being a genius, or say that "Clinton got the ball rolling originally," or give some other sort of displaced credit. In their minds, he doesn't belong in there so he can't do anything right, and first chance they get they'll stomp on his credibility. Blair was accused of being a moron just by association with him.

Also, many people (especially in Hollywood) figured that being outspoken about the war was a way to gain publicity or attention. Latching onto the "peace trend" also made them popular among the crowds. That's why I didn't agree with the peace movement to begin with - it wasn't as much about peace as they would like us to believe, and they constantly reminded me of this when debating the issues.

Controversial part over

How does this tie in with the topic? The protest of inhuman cruelty isn't really something you can market. Celebrities all the time donate huge amounts of money to charities, aid groups, etc, but it's seen as a humanitarian act and not as a popular and rebellious new trend. Protesting is in your face, it's what you do when you think you can rally enough people to your cause to change the minds of the higher-ups. Protesting gets attention because it is designed to. Do a little looking and you'll see that there is a lot of assistance given to humanitarian causes - but casually dropping your grocery change into the Salvation Army bucket isn't nearly as newsworthy as an organized, vehement public protest.

Just my 2


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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King Of Bongo


King Of Bongo

addict
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 522
Posted:Dear ray,
not enough time,
not enough money.

I could spend every day of my life protesting about everything I find wrong in the world, but no-one listens to some random without money or influence. Simple reality. I do my bit for those causes I can do something for, does this seem wrong and uproductive to you? Does it mean I'm 0%effective? I doubt it.

You're a military man Ray, you of all people should know:
Fight a "war" = difficult
Fight a "war" on two fronts = very difficult,
fight the fifty-billion that need to be fought at once= impossible.

I am not a martyr for any cause, but I do my bit for what I believe in and find respect for myself in doing so. I can't go around fighting everyone's war for them, and I won't expend my energy where I think it will be of no use. It's not that people don't care, but that people have priorities...

there are thousands of help agencies and charity organizations with millions of supporters that you are overlooking ray. They protest and do their bit with our support. The rest of us have to deal with our own lives.


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:People protest everything you mentioned.

Rather or not you choose to acknowlegde it isn't an issue worth discussing and it certainly isn't thread worthy. Get your head out of your ass.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Coleman a totaly differnt topic all together, but do as you will.

Smallboy, I dont know, thats why I am asking!! Did ya ever think of that? I threw out suggestions thats all. Really I just want to know why does it seem like people our so quick to judge their government but turn a blind eye to people who do far worse things?

Both yall can try to insult me all you want but in the end your the ones who look bad.


KoB, people sit there at their computer and say things like "Why is the US going to war and not feeding the world, if they only used 1% of their military budget they could feed millions!" Yet you sit there and say that you wont fight a war for somebody else.

Yes those organisations do protest these things, but I wasnt asking them I was asking HoPers! If you belong to an organisation and dont know about it I am sorry for an accusations.

Yes Astar they do, I am asking why you dont, not who does! Try to calm down and read my posts for once.

I was using the Muslim countries as an example of poor human rights? Do people have the right to go to school and get an education no matter their sex? Do people have the right to marry whom they choose despite sex? Do people have the right to not be raped by their spouse and spouse's friends? Do humans have the right to choose their religion?

These things do happen in places other than Muslim countries, but you cant deny that they happen more frequently in Muslim countries.

It wasnt an attack just an example.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:You know what? F*** it! I learned something this weekend, and I owe it all to Cassandra. I love to fight and argue, this is true, but thats not why I am here. I came here to learn poi and staff. The debating and what not hasnt gotten old, just, how do I say this???

You know, people like me a whole lot more when I aint arguing. Though I say what I mean it just isnt me.

I'm a nice guy who is strong about his convictions and doesnt like seeing people say stuff about people that cant say anything back.

So, this is my withdraw from the war topic area. Feel free to discuss what you want and enjoy yourself.

See yall on the rest of the board.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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King Of Bongo


King Of Bongo

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Location: Berlin

Total posts: 522
Posted:? what do you want me to do ray? get up and donate everything I have to the charity for women's rights in muslim countries? and then what? I have nothing, no where to live and no job... ok, so I go along to bristol city council and ask for support and go to a center for homeless people and get supported by a different charity? exaggerating here, but this seems to be your point, fairly silly if you ask me. You also seem to be saying that because I don't do this, I don't have a right to have an opinion and should shut up & quit protesting (I seem to remember having said this before somewhere).

Ray, I give a fiver each month to ( charity ) and twenty squid a year to support a kid in malawi each year. Its not much, I know, but as a student there is no way i could seriously give more or do any more. When I'm asked to play with fire for charity, i do so, free. Ever heard of RAG (raise and give- charity organization run by UK students raising money for lots of different causes all over the world)? As a student I do stuff all the time to support them.
Its not me just sitting here on my ass. Its not all I could do either, but it is something. I'm not mother teresa and I aint jesus, so there isn't much I can do really, the world isn't a perfect place, so deal with it. You can't right every wrong, you can't destroy every evil, all you can do is your little bit and hope others do too. Thus I gracefully accept your apologies (from your previous post).

I did not say I wouldnt fight a war for somebody else, i said I wouldnt waste my time on things that wouldn't help.

Ray- Do you not find it somewhat puzzling and incomprehensible that Spain pours over twice as much money into military spending than health and education combined????
(I do not know the figures for the US and don't have that much time to spend researching it cos of exams but I assume it to be even more exaggerated seeing as there is no real public health service over there)
Can you find no better cause to spend loads of money on than funding research for bigger and "better" weapons?
Do you not find a slight irony in the fact that most of the caches of weapons found in Iraq were actually made/developed by the US?


Your life is ending one minute at a time...
So live it.

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SmallBoy - x


SmallBoy - x

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London

Total posts: 2737
Posted:"Smallboy, I dont know, thats why I am asking!! Did ya ever think of that? I threw out suggestions thats all. Really I just want to know why does it seem like people our so quick to judge their government but turn a blind eye to people who do far worse things?

Both yall can try to insult me all you want but in the end your the ones who look bad.
"

Errrrm, I was wound up but not at you.....and not over something I'd care to share.
I did think of that.....I think before I post.

I judge my government because they're supposed to represent me......and they don't.
I judge other governments far harsher, but rant about them becuase I haven't got a handle on their values and traditions, their point of vioew or way of life.

I haven't insulted you, and nor would I.
if you go back thru any posts we've shared an opinion on, I try to see things from your point of view first and then explain why mine is different.

You're going to make me look bad?
Whatever.........if it makes you feel better.....

At the end of the day I'd never disrespect or get angry about anything you've ever posted......pls feel free to prove me wrong by dredging up some post that you feel upset by, and pointing out where I've been insulting rather than objective.

If you continue to take everything personally I'll avoid posting in topics you've already visited.


Small Lardy Person In Disguise

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:I lean toward the view that we should first focus on fixing problems in our own government.

Mat 7:3-5 ..."And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the log that is in your own eye? Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a log is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First cast the log out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye."


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Oh Patriarch... you and Raymond would have gotten along great. ubblol

At the time the internal HoP politics behind posts like these far exceeded the content of this thread.

Is there a reason you bumped a 3 year old thread filled with people that have long since been banned or left?


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:Yes. I didn't like the new white HOP, so I was trying to get the forum setting back to the way they used to be. I inadverdently set it to display posts in an order different then by descending date. This topic appeared to me to be the newest one. Sorry about bumping an old thread. tongue

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear,...

Total posts: 4693
Posted:bumps can be good when there are always so many new members.

i dont like t when elected officials are called 'leaders'. they are not meant to lead us, they are meant to represent us, no more than that.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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