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Login/Join to Participate110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Now look, it says very clearly on the list of forums that this is the Temporary Discussion Area, but there are NO discussions about the nature of time. So i'm making one.
Time confuses me for several reasons
1. you can't poke it with a stick.
2. we all seem to be moving along it at the same speed but...
3. when i try to think about how 'fast' we are moving in time, without reference to time to determine speed, my brain stops working and starts thinking about iced buns instead.
4. did i say several reasons? um...
5. how small does time go till you get to an indivisible elementary particle of time, eh? eh?
6. if the answer to the last one is 'infinitely small' then what sense does 'now' make, eh? eh?
7. is the future already there, or does it get made as it happens?
um yeah.
So anyone want to give me some of their time?
(go on Dom, i've forgotten how your theory that time doesn't exist actually went )
and finally, to fit in with the rest of this Forum, i'd like to blame the USA for its abuse of time and general temporal irresponsibility
Now look, it says very clearly on the list of forums that this is the Temporary Discussion Area, but there are NO discussions about the nature of time. So i'm making one.
Time confuses me for several reasons
1. you can't poke it with a stick.
2. we all seem to be moving along it at the same speed but...
3. when i try to think about how 'fast' we are moving in time, without reference to time to determine speed, my brain stops working and starts thinking about iced buns instead.
4. did i say several reasons? um...
5. how small does time go till you get to an indivisible elementary particle of time, eh? eh?
6. if the answer to the last one is 'infinitely small' then what sense does 'now' make, eh? eh?
7. is the future already there, or does it get made as it happens?
um yeah.
So anyone want to give me some of their time?
(go on Dom, i've forgotten how your theory that time doesn't exist actually went )
and finally, to fit in with the rest of this Forum, i'd like to blame the USA for its abuse of time and general temporal irresponsibility
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Oh Simian...what have you got us all into?
Oh Simian...what have you got us all into?
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom
Posted:
Can we all go to war on cheese please?
Can we all go to war on cheese please?
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
i prefer cheese on toast..
i prefer cheese on toast..
veteran
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
1,463 posts
Location: Florida
Posted:
time is an attachment...
nothing matters.
time is an attachment...
nothing matters.
JUGGLEwithyourmind!
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
But how can you 'know' that dinosaurs existed at all. From a theory to explain bones of supposedly extinct mammals?
If another theory came along to explain the bones another way (pushing the limits here a little but here goes). Say, a bacterium that feeds of bones and calcifies them into remnants 100 times larger. The process also creates so many dimorphisms that the original skeleton is unrecognisable.
The past, as you put it, is not a concrete solid series of events, not by our standards anyway.
It is a theorectical group of events which we use to explain more recent events. Just because a few theories fit, doens't mean that that is truly what happened.
From a human standpoint, even the 'past' in our own short lives is very malleable.
Elizabeth Loftus' work on so called 'repressed memories' is a classic example. See Elizabeth Loftus - News Scientist Interview
The only tool we have for examining the past is our memory and our interpretions of 'evidence' such as footage or recordings.
Note that these are all interpretations, and that our imperfect, malleable memories are STILL being used to recall the recordings.
As soon as we believe wholeheartedly that something occurred in the past, it becomes a theory that has little chance of being correct.
The past, as we see it, is a completely flawed model.
As you say with the two dimensonal creature, it has no concept of the curve of it's living surface.
but, does that mean that it ever has a chance of figuring out or understanding that curve? In my opnion, no.
There is no chance such a creature will ever attain the correct theory concerning the true nature of it's habitat.
I see us as all fitting into that category. Our concept of past present and future is completely flawed. I do not pretend to know what the 'correct' (if that term can be used) model is. I simply believe that the distancemorphosized concept we use has no bearing at all on the 'true' nature of things.
My concept of the timeline not existing at all, but merely events unfolding as they will, is an aproximate attempt to show myself and others that we know nothing of this 'time' and we never will.
Oh, but, I am VERY itnerested in superstring and universal vibration mode/wave interaction theories! Haven't come across them (or with those terms to describe them) as yet. can you suggest reading material, either hard copy or web-based?
[ 08. September 2003, 14:59: Message edited by: Charles ]
But how can you 'know' that dinosaurs existed at all. From a theory to explain bones of supposedly extinct mammals?
If another theory came along to explain the bones another way (pushing the limits here a little but here goes). Say, a bacterium that feeds of bones and calcifies them into remnants 100 times larger. The process also creates so many dimorphisms that the original skeleton is unrecognisable.
The past, as you put it, is not a concrete solid series of events, not by our standards anyway.
It is a theorectical group of events which we use to explain more recent events. Just because a few theories fit, doens't mean that that is truly what happened.
From a human standpoint, even the 'past' in our own short lives is very malleable.
Elizabeth Loftus' work on so called 'repressed memories' is a classic example. See Elizabeth Loftus - News Scientist Interview
The only tool we have for examining the past is our memory and our interpretions of 'evidence' such as footage or recordings.
Note that these are all interpretations, and that our imperfect, malleable memories are STILL being used to recall the recordings.
As soon as we believe wholeheartedly that something occurred in the past, it becomes a theory that has little chance of being correct.
The past, as we see it, is a completely flawed model.
As you say with the two dimensonal creature, it has no concept of the curve of it's living surface.
but, does that mean that it ever has a chance of figuring out or understanding that curve? In my opnion, no.
There is no chance such a creature will ever attain the correct theory concerning the true nature of it's habitat.
I see us as all fitting into that category. Our concept of past present and future is completely flawed. I do not pretend to know what the 'correct' (if that term can be used) model is. I simply believe that the distancemorphosized concept we use has no bearing at all on the 'true' nature of things.
My concept of the timeline not existing at all, but merely events unfolding as they will, is an aproximate attempt to show myself and others that we know nothing of this 'time' and we never will.
Oh, but, I am VERY itnerested in superstring and universal vibration mode/wave interaction theories! Haven't come across them (or with those terms to describe them) as yet. can you suggest reading material, either hard copy or web-based?
[ 08. September 2003, 14:59: Message edited by: Charles ]
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SILVER Member
member
60 posts
Location: the world at large (mainly UK)
member
60 posts
Location: the world at large (mainly UK)
Posted:
some of you have mentioned that the past does nopt exsist because where is it stored? well this is simple to answer which is it is staored on the present. its actions and the happenings of the past created the preasent so that nothing of the past is not stored in the present.
as for the measure of time then you have to remember that time is a part of space and that they exsist as part of each other. distance only has relavence if time exsists because distance is a part of speed divide by time to take a simple analogy. you cannot travel anywhere if you have no time in which to travel and you can not travel in a straight line if time was not linier. to travel in this set up you travel everywhere and no where at the samer time because you can be anywhere whislt being somewhere else because of the theory that you could have reached there before you went to the next place but because there is no before or after then you are there at the same time!
when it comes to breaking time into a measurable unit then you have the same problem as you do with distance or speed, everything is the precived measurment of a dimension created by a refference that has relavence to use. disatance and speed is measured by light now, or by the decay of an atom for time but these are or taken from something we decided to measure from! what you need is the that the universe uses and that then brings you to the question which is are there core values that the universe use or are they something that are constantly changing and that if we exsisteded 10 billion years from now then the universe itself will be different and then will not behave in the same way as it does now just like the universe is so differrent from the universe a secound after the big bang.
we know gravity effects time so the question could be can time be a measure of gravity? or a part of it like it is the width to a length?..........
at this point head now starting to steam from ears your turn!
some of you have mentioned that the past does nopt exsist because where is it stored? well this is simple to answer which is it is staored on the present. its actions and the happenings of the past created the preasent so that nothing of the past is not stored in the present.
as for the measure of time then you have to remember that time is a part of space and that they exsist as part of each other. distance only has relavence if time exsists because distance is a part of speed divide by time to take a simple analogy. you cannot travel anywhere if you have no time in which to travel and you can not travel in a straight line if time was not linier. to travel in this set up you travel everywhere and no where at the samer time because you can be anywhere whislt being somewhere else because of the theory that you could have reached there before you went to the next place but because there is no before or after then you are there at the same time!
when it comes to breaking time into a measurable unit then you have the same problem as you do with distance or speed, everything is the precived measurment of a dimension created by a refference that has relavence to use. disatance and speed is measured by light now, or by the decay of an atom for time but these are or taken from something we decided to measure from! what you need is the that the universe uses and that then brings you to the question which is are there core values that the universe use or are they something that are constantly changing and that if we exsisteded 10 billion years from now then the universe itself will be different and then will not behave in the same way as it does now just like the universe is so differrent from the universe a secound after the big bang.
we know gravity effects time so the question could be can time be a measure of gravity? or a part of it like it is the width to a length?..........
at this point head now starting to steam from ears your turn!
What you don't know won't hurt you? well i intend to get to know as much as possible so that i can make sure no one else has to so they carn't get hurt.
Lemon-Aware Devilstick-wielding Operative
605 posts
Location: East London Wilds
605 posts
Location: East London Wilds
Posted:
I should have jumped in earlier to this thread as a one-time physicist (yes, my degree is in Physics, no I didn't do hugely well, but I do remember some of it). Unfortunately I haven't had time :-)
So, here goes with Relativity 101:
Anyway. If you want to understand time, and you're happy with distance start with speed, because that's what links the two. If we measure the speed of light (yeah, you were waiting for that, weren't you), then whatever speed you're moving at, you will see light travelling past you at the same speed. Scary but true. And, even worse, if someone else is moving relative to you, then they'll see that same light moving at the same speed past them. Now, if that doesn't totally blow your mind, I don't know what will. Even worse, the effects of this have been shown to be true experimentally. Scary, huh?
The point is, that with c we've got something we can all agree on, in whatever units we choose. We've already decided that we can agree on a length (I'll come to why we can't in a bit), and so by uniting that length with a speed, we can also agree on units of time. So far so good.
Charles talked about bisecting lengths. That's all very well, but let's talk about what a "length" means. OK, that should be easy, it's the distance
between two points. but, and here's the problem; it's measured at the same time. So we'll refer to it as the distance between two "events", where an event has coordinates in space and time. So, let's suppose I take a ruler and I lay it out flat, and I run towards it. The light that's reflected off each end (that's how I see it, OK?) will travel towards me at the speed of light, and if the two events happen at the same time in the frame of the ruler, one of them has to travel the length of the ruler in order to get to me, so while I'm running, I'll see them at different times. If I consider an event where they happen at different times (in the reference of the ruler) such that I see them both at the same time, then the ruler will appear shorter due to the fact that I have moved. So what you end up with is that, in fact, length is not an absolute after all.
I'll skip all the crap, and say that there is *something* you can all measure and agree on, and that it involves both length and time. There are time-like separations and distance-like separations between two events, and a separation cannot be both.
As to why we can't measure it in a similar way to lengths, well, noone really knows, but the one thing we have in physics to try and even come close to explaining is the second law of thermodynamics which, in its simplest form says that entropy should always increase in any interaction. This, it is conjectured, is why you can't go back in time (because information has been lost, due to the increase in entropy). You sort of can go forwards, by travelling very very fast (another of the effects that comes out from the speed of light thing above), but that's not the same thing as the kind of static-in-space-moving-in-time machine out of science fiction.
Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programme of poi and fire and erm....
I should have jumped in earlier to this thread as a one-time physicist (yes, my degree is in Physics, no I didn't do hugely well, but I do remember some of it). Unfortunately I haven't had time :-)
So, here goes with Relativity 101:
Anyway. If you want to understand time, and you're happy with distance start with speed, because that's what links the two. If we measure the speed of light (yeah, you were waiting for that, weren't you), then whatever speed you're moving at, you will see light travelling past you at the same speed. Scary but true. And, even worse, if someone else is moving relative to you, then they'll see that same light moving at the same speed past them. Now, if that doesn't totally blow your mind, I don't know what will. Even worse, the effects of this have been shown to be true experimentally. Scary, huh?
The point is, that with c we've got something we can all agree on, in whatever units we choose. We've already decided that we can agree on a length (I'll come to why we can't in a bit), and so by uniting that length with a speed, we can also agree on units of time. So far so good.
Charles talked about bisecting lengths. That's all very well, but let's talk about what a "length" means. OK, that should be easy, it's the distance
between two points. but, and here's the problem; it's measured at the same time. So we'll refer to it as the distance between two "events", where an event has coordinates in space and time. So, let's suppose I take a ruler and I lay it out flat, and I run towards it. The light that's reflected off each end (that's how I see it, OK?) will travel towards me at the speed of light, and if the two events happen at the same time in the frame of the ruler, one of them has to travel the length of the ruler in order to get to me, so while I'm running, I'll see them at different times. If I consider an event where they happen at different times (in the reference of the ruler) such that I see them both at the same time, then the ruler will appear shorter due to the fact that I have moved. So what you end up with is that, in fact, length is not an absolute after all.
I'll skip all the crap, and say that there is *something* you can all measure and agree on, and that it involves both length and time. There are time-like separations and distance-like separations between two events, and a separation cannot be both.
As to why we can't measure it in a similar way to lengths, well, noone really knows, but the one thing we have in physics to try and even come close to explaining is the second law of thermodynamics which, in its simplest form says that entropy should always increase in any interaction. This, it is conjectured, is why you can't go back in time (because information has been lost, due to the increase in entropy). You sort of can go forwards, by travelling very very fast (another of the effects that comes out from the speed of light thing above), but that's not the same thing as the kind of static-in-space-moving-in-time machine out of science fiction.
Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programme of poi and fire and erm....
Luv 'n' Lemons
purity :: clarity :: balance
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Yes, and i have someone, who appears to back me, if only I can pull and edit one of his statements like the true spindoctor I aspire to be...
If the information has been lost, due to the increase in entropy, then it is fair to say that the past does not exist! Ha haaar!
Ar
aaahahahar
R
PS Did a search on superstrings and found a whole pile of physics sites and ended up spending 20 minutes reading through all sorts of interesting crap that had nothing to do with super strings.
For anyone who doesn't know, 20 minutes in the evening when you have a 3 month old child is like 3 weeks before babies arrival. It is a HHUUGGE amount of time.
Yes, and i have someone, who appears to back me, if only I can pull and edit one of his statements like the true spindoctor I aspire to be...
quote:Ha haaar!
you can't go back in time (because information has been lost, due to the increase in entropy
If the information has been lost, due to the increase in entropy, then it is fair to say that the past does not exist! Ha haaar!
Ar
aaahahahar
R
PS Did a search on superstrings and found a whole pile of physics sites and ended up spending 20 minutes reading through all sorts of interesting crap that had nothing to do with super strings.
For anyone who doesn't know, 20 minutes in the evening when you have a 3 month old child is like 3 weeks before babies arrival. It is a HHUUGGE amount of time.
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SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
how the hell did i miss this topic.
before i get into it, three cheers for simian for lighting the fuse on this one
i think charles that you are overcomplicating things a bit but please don't stop!
and frosty i see your distancmorphosising as a slight oversight...
the problem is i agree with einstein in that you cannot separate space and time - that's why they call our 'reality' space-time.
but like charles has said, time doesn't exist without an observer - if we are not there to observe our 'path' through space-time then there is no point in discussing this!
charles said:
"What occurred during those '10 seconds' was not a fall recorded along a time line, but an object passing through various states before it comes to rest on earth.
Those states do not have a mid-phase. It is simply your distancmorphosised concept of the fall that makes you feel there is a timeline involved."
this is a bit circular i feel.
by saying that the apple passes through a *series* of states *before* it hits the ground implies a set of observations of the apple's location in space-time with a direction.
so what you have here is a fifth dimension (which i'm sure some scientists have named but i can't be bothered to find out now) which we'll call say 'hypertime' in which we can observe the changes of an object through the four dimensions of space-time.
the fatal flaw is the assumption that there is a 'direction' associated with the states of the object in those 4 dimensions. by direction i mean that you assumed that the 10 foot up in the air state occurred 'before' the on the ground state.
you now just have in effect 'time, once removed'.
the 4-dimensional states of the apple *all exist at once*.
as observers it is our perception of our 'movement' through the 4th dimension (that's 'time', for those that have fallen asleep ) that differentiates between the 3-dimentional states of the object and gives them an order.
by that i mean that if we try to think of time as a dimension like the three spatial ones (ie. we consider ourselves observers of space-time in that we can 'see' all the states of space-time at once) we have a problem in that our brains do not think in 5 dimensions and as such, there is the inevitable trap of creating 'hypertime'.
as humans, we naturally take with us our perception of our changes in 'position' in the 4th dimension (or the passage of time if you will) and directly translate it to the 5th that we are 'observing' space-time from.
that's my main point made i think.
hold on...
ahhh.
as an aside to that (if you can call the theory of relativity an 'aside' ) our movement through the three dimensions we call space affects our movement through the 4th dimension.
they are linked and as such if one is a continuum (there is no smallest unit of distance or time) then the other is too.
to a lone human observer, time moves at a constant rate (not counting the independent perception like waiting for busses and such, i'm talking about a bloke holding a stopwatch).
we percieve reality as a series of changes in the spatial states of objects around us.
but we can affect our passage relative to the rest of the world through our movement through space.
can't say that i've ever really noticed it though - i seen evidence but to test it personally, i'll need a faster car...
have a chew on that.
the real issue with humans discussing time is that it begs the question 'what the nature of our perception of time'?
the argument that 'an observer is useless (or more accurately, incomprehensible to us) unless their change of states in one dimension is fixed' is a nice starting point for this one.
[edit: damn - loads of posts been made since i started writing this but it all still applies. if there is a concept of 'the present' then 'the past' and 'the future' are automatically implied. all three are consequences of our perception of the 4th dimension as 'time'.
as for superstring and other such multi-dimentional theories, i believe 'm theory' is where it's at nowdays ]
[ 12. September 2003, 14:03: Message edited by: coleman ]
how the hell did i miss this topic.
before i get into it, three cheers for simian for lighting the fuse on this one
i think charles that you are overcomplicating things a bit but please don't stop!
and frosty i see your distancmorphosising as a slight oversight...
the problem is i agree with einstein in that you cannot separate space and time - that's why they call our 'reality' space-time.
but like charles has said, time doesn't exist without an observer - if we are not there to observe our 'path' through space-time then there is no point in discussing this!
charles said:
"What occurred during those '10 seconds' was not a fall recorded along a time line, but an object passing through various states before it comes to rest on earth.
Those states do not have a mid-phase. It is simply your distancmorphosised concept of the fall that makes you feel there is a timeline involved."
this is a bit circular i feel.
by saying that the apple passes through a *series* of states *before* it hits the ground implies a set of observations of the apple's location in space-time with a direction.
so what you have here is a fifth dimension (which i'm sure some scientists have named but i can't be bothered to find out now) which we'll call say 'hypertime' in which we can observe the changes of an object through the four dimensions of space-time.
the fatal flaw is the assumption that there is a 'direction' associated with the states of the object in those 4 dimensions. by direction i mean that you assumed that the 10 foot up in the air state occurred 'before' the on the ground state.
you now just have in effect 'time, once removed'.
the 4-dimensional states of the apple *all exist at once*.
as observers it is our perception of our 'movement' through the 4th dimension (that's 'time', for those that have fallen asleep ) that differentiates between the 3-dimentional states of the object and gives them an order.
by that i mean that if we try to think of time as a dimension like the three spatial ones (ie. we consider ourselves observers of space-time in that we can 'see' all the states of space-time at once) we have a problem in that our brains do not think in 5 dimensions and as such, there is the inevitable trap of creating 'hypertime'.
as humans, we naturally take with us our perception of our changes in 'position' in the 4th dimension (or the passage of time if you will) and directly translate it to the 5th that we are 'observing' space-time from.
that's my main point made i think.
hold on...
ahhh.
as an aside to that (if you can call the theory of relativity an 'aside' ) our movement through the three dimensions we call space affects our movement through the 4th dimension.
they are linked and as such if one is a continuum (there is no smallest unit of distance or time) then the other is too.
to a lone human observer, time moves at a constant rate (not counting the independent perception like waiting for busses and such, i'm talking about a bloke holding a stopwatch).
we percieve reality as a series of changes in the spatial states of objects around us.
but we can affect our passage relative to the rest of the world through our movement through space.
can't say that i've ever really noticed it though - i seen evidence but to test it personally, i'll need a faster car...
have a chew on that.
the real issue with humans discussing time is that it begs the question 'what the nature of our perception of time'?
the argument that 'an observer is useless (or more accurately, incomprehensible to us) unless their change of states in one dimension is fixed' is a nice starting point for this one.
[edit: damn - loads of posts been made since i started writing this but it all still applies. if there is a concept of 'the present' then 'the past' and 'the future' are automatically implied. all three are consequences of our perception of the 4th dimension as 'time'.
as for superstring and other such multi-dimentional theories, i believe 'm theory' is where it's at nowdays ]
[ 12. September 2003, 14:03: Message edited by: coleman ]
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Yay! Another combatant oops, i mean, fellow discussor...
Coleman. Do you really believe that time is the fourth dimension?
I'm about to stupidly take on almost all of the physicists in the world.
Uing time as a fourth dimension, when applied to behaviour patterns of humans in a sociological way, rather than a 'purely scientific' approach becomes quite interesting.
(I won't go into how you cannot seperate 'pure science' and sociology easily anyway).
This fourth dimension creates an easy way to insert time into mathematical equations, so that it fits with the 'timeline' theory that most people, including most scientists, agree with.
It APPEARS to make sense, but is based on a purely hypothetical sense of time, and is yet another example of how even the smartest people in the world become blinded by their perception of the world around them.
Saying that time and space are inextricably intertwined, is still using time from an observers viewpoint, to make the equations fit.
I believe it is closer to the truth that, as space does exist in a fashion, time does not. Linking time, a non existant concept, to an existing concept, is a wonderful manner to make it appear to have it's own properties and appear to truly exist.
Pity it doesn't
Adding in extra dimensions above the 3rd, simply alows an extra axis in which to plot co-ordinates which allows us to create mathematical descriptions that seem to fit our observations.
Just because it seems to fit, doesn't mean that the manner of it's conception wasn't based in our need to distancemorphosize time, and has no real bearing on the universe itself.
I know this is pretty fatalistic...But there are a number of assumptions of a similar nature that are much easier to disprove, that are challenged and disproved all the time.
But I must agree, Frosty and Coleman, this is great fun!
Yay! Another combatant oops, i mean, fellow discussor...
Coleman. Do you really believe that time is the fourth dimension?
I'm about to stupidly take on almost all of the physicists in the world.
Uing time as a fourth dimension, when applied to behaviour patterns of humans in a sociological way, rather than a 'purely scientific' approach becomes quite interesting.
(I won't go into how you cannot seperate 'pure science' and sociology easily anyway).
This fourth dimension creates an easy way to insert time into mathematical equations, so that it fits with the 'timeline' theory that most people, including most scientists, agree with.
It APPEARS to make sense, but is based on a purely hypothetical sense of time, and is yet another example of how even the smartest people in the world become blinded by their perception of the world around them.
Saying that time and space are inextricably intertwined, is still using time from an observers viewpoint, to make the equations fit.
I believe it is closer to the truth that, as space does exist in a fashion, time does not. Linking time, a non existant concept, to an existing concept, is a wonderful manner to make it appear to have it's own properties and appear to truly exist.
Pity it doesn't
Adding in extra dimensions above the 3rd, simply alows an extra axis in which to plot co-ordinates which allows us to create mathematical descriptions that seem to fit our observations.
Just because it seems to fit, doesn't mean that the manner of it's conception wasn't based in our need to distancemorphosize time, and has no real bearing on the universe itself.
I know this is pretty fatalistic...But there are a number of assumptions of a similar nature that are much easier to disprove, that are challenged and disproved all the time.
But I must agree, Frosty and Coleman, this is great fun!
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* Is it the Truth?
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SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Mongoose.
*tries desperatly to HAUL this thread back into the realms of the faintly odd*
Mongoose.
*tries desperatly to HAUL this thread back into the realms of the faintly odd*
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
It seems plenty odd enough to me even without mongooses.
Now i'm just going to go back and read Charles posts for the fourth time to see if i can work out what the hell he's talking about
It seems plenty odd enough to me even without mongooses.
Now i'm just going to go back and read Charles posts for the fourth time to see if i can work out what the hell he's talking about
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
oh i see...
so Charles reckons that the universe only has 'existence' in the current moment.
And Cole, Frosty and Matt BM have formed a physics mafia against him saying that time is a dimension which we're moving along (sort of).
i think.
i'm more inclined to trust the physicists who say that their impenetrable equations mean things must be like this even though its not intuitive. Those pesky scientists have been right about lots of stuff like that. They've been wrong sometimes too, but not as often as people who trust intuition.
i'm still pretty confused as to how i manage to find myself from one moment to the next without ever getting stuck
ooh, here's something i've been idly wondering about. A theoretical teleporter (like what they have in star trek) would basically just make a copy of you in a new place and then get rid of the old one, yes?
Which is essentially murder, but noone notices because there's a new person who acts just like you and thinks they're you thats come out the other end.
Basically you've got a continuity of identity, thats seperate from what you're made of, or whats going on in you're head. If you make an exact copy of yourself, there's still only one you that you're living inside.
So what is it that transfers this continuous identity from one infintesimal moment to the next? How are these changes-of-state in time, different from having an exact replica made of you?
Thinking about this has now convinced me that i have no lasting existence in anything but a physical sense, and mentally i'm just a set of constantly replaced deluded doppelgangers who are born and die in their millions every second. Which really bothers me until i forget about it a bit later and think about iced buns instead.
do you see what i'm getting at, or was that a load of impenetrable waffle?
oh i see...
so Charles reckons that the universe only has 'existence' in the current moment.
And Cole, Frosty and Matt BM have formed a physics mafia against him saying that time is a dimension which we're moving along (sort of).
i think.
i'm more inclined to trust the physicists who say that their impenetrable equations mean things must be like this even though its not intuitive. Those pesky scientists have been right about lots of stuff like that. They've been wrong sometimes too, but not as often as people who trust intuition.
i'm still pretty confused as to how i manage to find myself from one moment to the next without ever getting stuck
ooh, here's something i've been idly wondering about. A theoretical teleporter (like what they have in star trek) would basically just make a copy of you in a new place and then get rid of the old one, yes?
Which is essentially murder, but noone notices because there's a new person who acts just like you and thinks they're you thats come out the other end.
Basically you've got a continuity of identity, thats seperate from what you're made of, or whats going on in you're head. If you make an exact copy of yourself, there's still only one you that you're living inside.
So what is it that transfers this continuous identity from one infintesimal moment to the next? How are these changes-of-state in time, different from having an exact replica made of you?
Thinking about this has now convinced me that i have no lasting existence in anything but a physical sense, and mentally i'm just a set of constantly replaced deluded doppelgangers who are born and die in their millions every second. Which really bothers me until i forget about it a bit later and think about iced buns instead.
do you see what i'm getting at, or was that a load of impenetrable waffle?
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
I always thought Gene Roddenbury was a little shifty..
I always thought Gene Roddenbury was a little shifty..
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Or perhaps there is a 'morphic resonance' such as Terry Practchett sometimes refers to, where if something else was made, shaped exactly like you, it would begin to take on your habits and characteristics simultaneously.
There may well be something much more than just your physical self made up of atoms, and that is a container that the universe feels a desire to fill with 'you' when it sees a certain shaped container.
Or perhaps there is a 'morphic resonance' such as Terry Practchett sometimes refers to, where if something else was made, shaped exactly like you, it would begin to take on your habits and characteristics simultaneously.
There may well be something much more than just your physical self made up of atoms, and that is a container that the universe feels a desire to fill with 'you' when it sees a certain shaped container.
HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
i would like to draw attention to the fact that this serious dicussion on the nature of time is in the Social Chat forum when perhaps it should be in the Social Discussion forum.
whereas [Old link] is in the Social Discussion forum when perhaps it should be in the Social Chat forum...
thank you
i would like to draw attention to the fact that this serious dicussion on the nature of time is in the Social Chat forum when perhaps it should be in the Social Discussion forum.
whereas [Old link] is in the Social Discussion forum when perhaps it should be in the Social Chat forum...
thank you
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
SILVER Member
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Tantamount to fatuity
15,967 posts
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Posted:
I've spent the last month and something days trying to find the time to send everyone who deserves it a nice shiny travelogue email to update them to my wheherabouts. hasn't worked yet.
Does that help the thread any?
I've spent the last month and something days trying to find the time to send everyone who deserves it a nice shiny travelogue email to update them to my wheherabouts. hasn't worked yet.
Does that help the thread any?
Meh
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
..........any what?
..........any what?
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
any wherherabouts?
any wherherabouts?
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Does that help the thread any wherherabouts?
Now that doesnt even make any sence...
neither did the orignal post so i shall let you off this tim.
Tim?
I evidently meant Time.
Does that help the thread any wherherabouts?
Now that doesnt even make any sence...
neither did the orignal post so i shall let you off this tim.
Tim?
I evidently meant Time.
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
This thread on the other hand seems like it should be in social discussion.
not surprising to see a mischevous monkey at the helm of these tangled threads
ok over we go again - is anyone getting the same sense of de ja vu that I am?
Josh
This thread on the other hand seems like it should be in social discussion.
not surprising to see a mischevous monkey at the helm of these tangled threads
ok over we go again - is anyone getting the same sense of de ja vu that I am?
Josh
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
so, Time.
um...
erm..
Is time travel actually possible? Theoretically?
so, Time.
um...
erm..
Is time travel actually possible? Theoretically?
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
Moi? i may have started the thread, but i didn't tangle it
i couldn't possibly disclose who did, but his name certainly isn't Charkles 
Anyway, now this thread is in the grown-up's forum i shall refrain from further silliness and/or mentions of woodland mammals within it.
if anyone has anything to add about the subject of time, or comments on any of the previous highly interesting posts, then this thread is your pinemartin
Quote:
not surprising to see a mischevous monkey at the helm of these tangled threads
Moi? i may have started the thread, but i didn't tangle it
i couldn't possibly disclose who did, but his name certainly isn't Charkles Anyway, now this thread is in the grown-up's forum i shall refrain from further silliness and/or mentions of woodland mammals within it.
if anyone has anything to add about the subject of time, or comments on any of the previous highly interesting posts, then this thread is your pinemartin
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
SILVER Member
addict
469 posts
Location: nottingham, england. cornwall wales denmark or pra...
addict
469 posts
Location: nottingham, england. cornwall wales denmark or pra...
Posted:
yeah. im travelling in time right now.
the question is can we control the speed and/or direction in time. so i can travel forward quickly till when i finish work.
or slow time down so that when i step outside and the sunshine hits me on my face i can stretch that soul warming moment to last all afternoon.
but why only go forward and back. whats off the normal timeline.? can we travel sideways.? or diagonally in time??
answers on a postcard.
no not on a postcard on this thread that would be better really
yeah. im travelling in time right now.
the question is can we control the speed and/or direction in time. so i can travel forward quickly till when i finish work.
or slow time down so that when i step outside and the sunshine hits me on my face i can stretch that soul warming moment to last all afternoon.
but why only go forward and back. whats off the normal timeline.? can we travel sideways.? or diagonally in time??
answers on a postcard.
no not on a postcard on this thread that would be better really
my original signature was tooo long.
this one is shorter
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Can we even turn time off...
hang on..
Time doesnt actually exist. You cant hold or touch it anyway?
so how could you turn something that doesnt exist, off?
Can we even turn time off...
hang on..
Time doesnt actually exist. You cant hold or touch it anyway?
so how could you turn something that doesnt exist, off?
SILVER Member
addict
469 posts
Location: nottingham, england. cornwall wales denmark or pra...
addict
469 posts
Location: nottingham, england. cornwall wales denmark or pra...
Posted:
does that mean we have a longer wait for the time travel if ucof turned the time off.?
does that mean we have a longer wait for the time travel if ucof turned the time off.?
my original signature was tooo long.
this one is shorter
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
*ahem* you guys know this is the serious version of the thread?
(the phrase "hoist on my own petard" springs to mind
)
Here, this is the last 'serious' post i did in this thread, because i'd like to provoke serious discussion, but can't think of anything new to say off the top of my head
(and also cos i still want to be told why it's wrong)
*ahem* you guys know this is the serious version of the thread?
(the phrase "hoist on my own petard" springs to mind
)Here, this is the last 'serious' post i did in this thread, because i'd like to provoke serious discussion, but can't think of anything new to say off the top of my head
(and also cos i still want to be told why it's wrong)
Quote:
ooh, here's something i've been idly wondering about. A theoretical teleporter (like what they have in star trek) would basically just make a copy of you in a new place and then get rid of the old one, yes?
Which is essentially murder, but noone notices because there's a new person who acts just like you and thinks they're you thats come out the other end.
Basically you've got a continuity of identity, thats seperate from what you're made of, or whats going on in you're head. If you make an exact copy of yourself, there's still only one you that you're living inside.
So what is it that transfers this continuous identity from one infintesimal moment to the next? How are these changes-of-state in time, different from having an exact replica made of you?
Thinking about this has now convinced me that i have no lasting existence in anything but a physical sense, and mentally i'm just a set of constantly replaced deluded doppelgangers who are born and die in their millions every second. Which really bothers me until i forget about it a bit later and think about iced buns instead.
do you see what i'm getting at, or was that a load of impenetrable waffle?
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Wasnt mine serious enough?
I did try.
Wasnt mine serious enough?
I did try.
Quantum Theorist
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
Posted:
UCOF told me to post this here to I didn't feel like modifying it.
Does anyone have a theory regarding the limites of quantum computers. I believe they do have a limit as there most likely is a finite number of parallel universes and a finite number of atoms within each. Then there must be limit to the factoring cabablities (Sp?) of a quantium computer. Of course that being said the very act of quantum action may create for a brief moment enough universes along our quantum plane to complete any action. But that brings the theory of consiousness being pivitale to quantum splits into question. But for that theory to be true then the forth dimention isn't time but consciouness. Which would prove Charles' theory of a few months ago that stated the devine being (whoever or whatever that may be) existing out side of time. Meaning time it's self may not actually be a really thing, but only a precieved thing used my our simple minds to cope with something far beond our understanding. Any thoughts?
all this of course means that Enstine while right made a mistake E = MC2 where C is the speed of light. Speed is of cause a function of time. but if time trully doesn't exist except at a perception of passing quantum events trigured by consciousness (which was probably a complete fluke). That means that we can travel through "time", we can travel fasters than light, and infact can probably jump to any point in our plane of existance simply by programing a quantum drive witht the corridinates. Enstine will be happy, we may prove him wrong in our life time.
UCOF told me to post this here to I didn't feel like modifying it.
Does anyone have a theory regarding the limites of quantum computers. I believe they do have a limit as there most likely is a finite number of parallel universes and a finite number of atoms within each. Then there must be limit to the factoring cabablities (Sp?) of a quantium computer. Of course that being said the very act of quantum action may create for a brief moment enough universes along our quantum plane to complete any action. But that brings the theory of consiousness being pivitale to quantum splits into question. But for that theory to be true then the forth dimention isn't time but consciouness. Which would prove Charles' theory of a few months ago that stated the devine being (whoever or whatever that may be) existing out side of time. Meaning time it's self may not actually be a really thing, but only a precieved thing used my our simple minds to cope with something far beond our understanding. Any thoughts?
all this of course means that Enstine while right made a mistake E = MC2 where C is the speed of light. Speed is of cause a function of time. but if time trully doesn't exist except at a perception of passing quantum events trigured by consciousness (which was probably a complete fluke). That means that we can travel through "time", we can travel fasters than light, and infact can probably jump to any point in our plane of existance simply by programing a quantum drive witht the corridinates. Enstine will be happy, we may prove him wrong in our life time.
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
in answer to monkey boy,
i guess what you're saying is completely right.
NOTE: before i write this i am not trying to make ANY religious point WHATSOEVER!!!!
but...
it's interesting to note how a lot of pagan beliefs tie in with scientific stuff (like the thing about vibrations and everything vibrating), and according to a lot of good pagan teachers, you are not ever living in circumstance (i.e. doing something because you happened to be already doing it) you are cnstantly, every second, choosing what it is that you do, so in that way i guess you are a different person every billionth of a second - you are choosing to be the person you are constantly, all the time. so this second i could decide to be a bitch and then change my mind a minute later.
the only thing is that everyone else might not notice and think i was still being a bitch, so that's the only thnkg that makes it seem like you are still the same person - other people's perception of you, which ties in nicely with...
doesn't really answer everything, but interesting all the same...
in answer to monkey boy,
i guess what you're saying is completely right.
NOTE: before i write this i am not trying to make ANY religious point WHATSOEVER!!!!
but...
it's interesting to note how a lot of pagan beliefs tie in with scientific stuff (like the thing about vibrations and everything vibrating), and according to a lot of good pagan teachers, you are not ever living in circumstance (i.e. doing something because you happened to be already doing it) you are cnstantly, every second, choosing what it is that you do, so in that way i guess you are a different person every billionth of a second - you are choosing to be the person you are constantly, all the time. so this second i could decide to be a bitch and then change my mind a minute later.
the only thing is that everyone else might not notice and think i was still being a bitch, so that's the only thnkg that makes it seem like you are still the same person - other people's perception of you, which ties in nicely with...
Quote:
Which is essentially murder, but noone notices because there's a new person who acts just like you and thinks they're you thats come out the other end.
doesn't really answer everything, but interesting all the same...
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
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