Forums > Social Discussion > Save Home of Poi

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
loki: sorry no offense meant: but if you want your thread to live you should post some more in it: you must have some new stuff on that by now?

Re: rules for posting, I think the more you rules you have, the more it puts people off posting. I still run by the main ones of trying to build goodwill and support the community, and good lord, I have enough trouble just getting those to work (as the above example shows)

In defense of the whole 'do a search' thing, it never put me off posting, but it did make sure I always looked for a previous topic to add to. However, it's a judgement call, and as such some people will always do it in a way that is perceived as 'negative'

I'm not sure about how to get round this, but I can think of two things:
1) enforced emoticon use to help convey the attitude in which the post is made
2) a 'karma' type system, where other users rate your posts as good or bad, might encourage people to think more about their posts and raise awareness as to when they're upsetting other people.

The main problem is, when you send something off into cyberspace, there's no direct feedback, apart from replies which are as open to misinterpretation (as Pele points out) as your own post, so it's sometimes hard to understand how exactly you have upset people.

About the Senior Lounge thing: from what I've seen calling it full of 'elites' or otherwise would be a complete misnomer as it conveys the idea that there is some kind of secret jedi teachings contained in there. 'Fogies' would be more appropriate, considering the number of posts about jobs, kids, the 'good old days' and mortages.

Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
Originally Posted By: LazyAngel**Sigh* and here we have part of the problem with HoP: stuff gets taken waaaayyyy too seriously, with regard to questions of ownership, cliques, politics, activity, etc. Of COURSE there are cliques with people who know each other. Of COURSE they have in jokes. And OF COURSE people move on with their lives as they get busier and busier (with things like mortgages, jobs, kids, etc). Remember it's *just* the internet and thus all completely open to (mis)interpretation: try not to take it so seriously

I for one will say that meeting people in real life is VERY different to meeting them on HoP:

we just don't have enough hugging these days


I completly agree with this hey.. People grow and they can drift away... life is all about the ebb and flow of energy cycles and HOP is not immune to that.


I owe this place my life as I live it now. I have a wonderful, talented, partner, who I met through HOP. We have a beautiful, smart, healthy son who is a testament to the positive things that exist because of HOP. I do also live my life as an active participant, so I dont have a whole lotta time to post these days cause of being a mum and looking after a giggly three and a half year old, who is hyperactive in his daily travels...

When arsn and I were talking about it, EVERYONE we consider to be in our chosen family or soul group has connected with us through HOP at some point, and how can the beauty of this place be lost when there are such gorgeous souls on here?

Yes I suppose that there are cliques on here, I hadnt really though much about it, but they will be largely due to geographical reasons and not due to "elitest" views.

I will also speak up for Rouge in this 'Plebs' situation too. Loki and Simta? She had your guys backs in that debate, and there were massive implications across peoples relationships that needed to be repaired, Rougies and mine included, so please dont be cranky towards her for that, she spoke very loudly against the very thing you too are unhappy about.

Love to everyone.. I have more thoughts but will post them later on...outta time..
V
EDITED_BY: Valura (1227480831)
EDIT_REASON: spelling

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
Meh, the whole senior lounge thing upset me way too much and made me revisit how much I put into online emotions. Rouge and I were voices in the wilderness on the exclusionism.

I should have listened to the wise ones who said "leave it alone Nor and there will be few posts in there anyways". I did help me move on from the HOP obsession I had though.

I come back occasionally to HOP (on shutdown nights) and read posts and occasionally post. As Valura said HOP has given me many new friends and contacts and when I go to somewhere I think of the ppl who are spinners there that I want to meet.

I have never seen a huge American influence on HOP. Doc L and Pele are the two major contributors over the yearsbut theres always been a few ppl and the UK influence ebbs and flows. I think the Americans have other boards and ways of keeping in touch.

Glad your online business is doing well Malcolm.


EDITED_BY: Gnor (1227483789)

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
Quote: "Maybe we should be banned from saying "Do a Search"?" Hear Hear Malcolm!!

Who cares if something has been discussed before! When a NEW MEMBER reaches out and takes that first step of creating a new topic, the community needs to encourage them, talk to them, interact with them... etc. Not tell them that this particular topic has already been talked about thoroughly in depth 5 years ago!! They didn't come here to TRAWL THROUGH OUR OLD DISCUSSIONS!!! Really, how fun do you think that would be??? (even being as cool as we all are/were) hehe

The point is, the future of HOP lies in the new members. We can complain all day about how the site has changed from the way it was 3-5-10 years ago - well, of course it has! Nothing else has stayed the same, has it? How can we expect an interactive web-community to remain just the way it is/was.. ie. stagnate? As others have said, we oldie fogies will eventually drift off and not spin as much and not have free time etc. The site is no longer specifically For Us! Shouldn't HOP be aimed/directed/oriented much more towards those people who are feeling just like we did once - when we made that first stick/set of poi and practiced for hours on end in our bedroom - and then reached out to find others to share that thrill with...?

(additionally as a side but related point, i remain in disagreeance with the Retired members area. The concept is nice... but if we, as oldies, are unwilling to evolve with the site and spend time hanging out with new members and making new friends - those Passionate newcomers who hold the future of HOP & firespinning - then i fear we are simply contributing to the stagnation - in our attempt to keep everything just the way it was, as we used to love it)



*Hugs to all*

-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
oh yeah.

I have heard whispers of the Anti American sentiment on here before and I was quite miffed at it. May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the armpits of people that are doing such things, because that is just wrong.

I would think in this day and age that people would have the intelligance by now to not judge people by their nationality... thats so so sad.


EDITED_BY: Valura (1227487763)

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
Hi all

I'm not buying this anti American sentiment keeping Americans away. IMO there's a good chance Americans prefer an American based format, like tribe with all it's Burning Man connections. Also, I think your "average" American is capable of telling when we're being critical of the Bush administration and if they're going to take THAT personally, well....

I'm proposing that those Americans who fear to tread in Discussion because they feel they're under attack might just want to pop their heads out of their intro threads and defend their country.

FWIW, tribe's pretty dead too, so there might be a larger connection between these arts and text declining in popularity. I'm talking specifically The Art of Poi, Tech Poi etc.

Originally Posted By: LazyAngela 'karma' type system, where other users rate your posts as good or bad, might encourage people to think more about their posts and raise awareness as to when they're upsetting other people

Too Stepfordesque, especially if done anonymously. If you really want to go down that road I'd suggest a special flame section where people can voice their concerns about who/what is upsetting them and it would give the accused a chance to respond. Like this one

Originally Posted By: falloutboyNot tell them that this particular topic has already been talked about thoroughly in depth 5 years ago!! They didn't come here to TRAWL THROUGH OUR OLD DISCUSSIONS!!! Really, how fun do you think that would be???

Yes, exactly, I've been shrieking about this for years. Sure those threads were fun to participate in, and may even be fun for those who participated in them to revisit but for a newbie to sift through the "fun" to find an answer to what they're looking for is an exercise in tedium. I know this, I spent the time going that route, and I have the chewed up pencil stubs to prove it.

I always figured the do a search thing revolved around people not wanting to have their writings and thoughts drift into obscurity, it's understandable, but there was never any movement to edit those threads and remove all the fluff.

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
A bit off some of the main points in this discussion but:

I think we all need to put more effort in to greeting the newies in the Introductions section too. For instance, back when I joined my introduction thread was absolutely bombarded with random questions, welcomes and tips but now I notice introductions that have been there for days and days with no replies. I can't blame them for not feeling welcome.

Personally, I'm going to try and put a conscious effort to greet the newies, I hope we can all get back on board and make these guys feel truly feel like they are part of something wonderful like I felt when I joined

.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
Originally Posted By: Stout
I always figured the do a search thing revolved around people not wanting to have their writings and thoughts drift into obscurity, it's understandable, but there was never any movement to edit those threads and remove all the fluff.

well maybe this is what's needed. take those threads and remove all the unnecessary chatter and make them into stickies. i don't think "do a search" is people wanting their threads read by others for some ego-related reason. it's common practise, over on the ubuntuForums they encounter the same problem on a much bigger scale. they post up definitive tutorials and if new threads are created they just link users back to these.

"the geeks have got you" - Gayle

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
I don't think you can tribe.net as an example because it keeps crashing horrendously every other day. Supposedly it's under new management now... but how long that will take to become apparent in it's uptime...

Malcolm seems to be on top of the whole situation thou, so that's pretty awesome.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
Aint it funny...(this is addressed to noone in particular)





When we played around and took threads in random directions
...you got angry at us for derailing the thread.

When we had conversations on the boards
...you got cross and said it wasn't a chat room

When we filled people's intro threads with pictures of fairies and kittens
...you shunned us called us postwhores

When we stopped
...you got sad wondered where the atmosphere went.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
Who is you and who is we??

I think it is an example of where we should just do what we want to do while showing respect to others and respect to the topic starter in the more serious threads. Changing what we do just beacuse one person whines about it is silly and ends up in nothing happening beacuse every one has different opinions about how a board operates.

Honestly i find it hard to get in on the really crazy silly threads but hey thats just me so I stay away from them. It's not that hard and it's the reason the forums are broken up in to social and technical.

Blue

PS: This was not directed at you rouge but is more my musings over the same topics.

I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />

Posted: 23rd Nov 2008
Originally Posted By: Rouge Dragon(this is addressed to noone in particular)




I think she was referring to a general feeling not to a person.

.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
And my 2cts worth: personally I'm set off by some of the oldies who can't get past their acquired resentments towards each other. Nasty and pointlessly negative/ personal remarks don't make ppl feel cozy and warm + keep them from posting their opinion in order to avoid a bamboo massage.

And then I side Malcolm on the "do a search comments". Only yesterday I was thinking that the best thing that could possibly happen to HoP is a "Format+C" on the contents of a few forums on this board.

But looking at the high number of posts on this topic, in this short period of time, I notice that you guys didn't went missing, you just ceased to post...

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
Quote:
Quote:Originally Posted By: Rouge Dragon
(this is addressed to noone in particular)

I think she was referring to a general feeling not to a person.


Neither was i, but as we can see there are two sides to the mentioned issuse and we need to think about how those issues came up? They didn't come out of nowhere and we do not need to name names but thinking about the ways in which those issues came up will help us think about what to do when fronted with a similar problem in the future.

I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
Right guys, theres a load of ideas in here now, 3 full pages of em. So how about a look at how everyone feels about each one? Perhaps a poll thread thingy with some yes/no's would be good? What questions do we think should be on there? I can see:
- Stop making people 'do a search'
- Remove the fogies forum
- More rules about the tone of posts (re the anti-american feelings)
- New formats for the videos section

I'd also like to propose:
- Remove the 'Registered' bit next to everyones name - theres no post count there to try and remove the gap between heavily active and occasional users, but you've just replaced that with elitism based on joining date.

Any others?

Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
Originally Posted By: roarfire
I think we all need to put more effort in to greeting the newies in the Introductions section too. For instance, back when I joined my introduction thread was absolutely bombarded with random questions, welcomes and tips but now I notice introductions that have been there for days and days with no replies. I can't blame them for not feeling welcome.

Personally, I'm going to try and put a conscious effort to greet the newies, I hope we can all get back on board and make these guys feel truly feel like they are part of something wonderful like I felt when I joined

oh me gosh, finally someone pointing out some practical stuff! true. greet the noobs, get the boobs. I'll try to make them feel more welcome as well for I had the great pleasure of being welcomed whole heartedly as well couple of years ago. and I mean it takes like what, 2 minutes to write 2 posts saying a little more than "hi"? (but then again I might be takin' this a little too serious :D)

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
I agree with Malcolm more than anyone else. It might have to do with people doing the "do a search" thing. You have to remember that HoP FORCES you to do a search whenever you try to start a music thread, so everyone has, by default, done a search. A gentle, FRIENDLY, re-direct or link will help people who try to start "sparkley poi" and "what music do you listen to?" threads.

But it's far more than that. HoP continues to be an amazing community and a close-knit family. Sorry, Rougie, I have to disagree with you. Back when we were less than 300 we were no less close-knit than we are.

It's just that people stopped posting. And if I have no posts to which to respond, then I'm going to stop posting, too. And that's exactly what happened. The forums died. First for a week. Then for a month. Then for three months. And then for six. And for the first time since I signed on in May, 2001, I got worried.

Folks, in all the time I've been on HoP I have never raised concern for the direction the community was taking. I've seen changes happen, people come and go, spats, fights, and horrible carnage in the Marmite/Nutella/Vegemite wars (SO unnecessary; if people had just simply accepted that Nutella=God... )

In seven years, this is the only time I've really been worried about the community as a whole. Because for all the fights and drama, at least the community existed. We were there. And yeah, there were times when it was cliquish, there were times when it was rainbows and bunny rabbits. But I've never seen it just go DEAD.

I think it has something to do with the set-up of the forums, yes. There is room for updating, but I want to hear other reasons why.

Because things going on WITHIN a community usually INCREASE activity, especially when it's a fight, I don't think it's because people have been snippy. I think it may have to do with things like YouTube and Facebook. But I'm not sure how and I'm not sure how to leverage it.

In my travels around Oz, I've realized what we've built for ourselves here. We can't let it simply succumb to attrition. That would be a shame.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
Maybe tribe isn't the best example nowadays, but it used to be busy and in 4 years of looking around for "local" poi forums, it's the only one I found that had any activity to speak of. This led me to the conclusion that American spinners weren't as internet active as the rest of the English speaking world.

Quote:When we filled people's intro threads with pictures of fairies and kittens
...you shunned us called us postwhores
I remember those days, back when the cost of bandwidth was an "issue" I never really got involved myself seeing that back then there was enough going on in other parts of the board to hold my attention. But yea, there was a lot of needles squawking ( IMO ) going on over one word posts.

Quote:But looking at the high number of posts on this topic, in this short period of time, I notice that you guys didn't went missing, you just ceased to post...

Yes, I hit "who's online" more times than I care to admit, and I'm convinced "everyone" is still here, but not posting.

Quote:And that's exactly what happened. The forums died. First for a week. Then for a month. Then for three months. And then for six.

I presume You're talking chat/intro here, because I've noticed the slowdown in the rest of the boards for close to three years now.

Quote: but I want to hear other reasons why.

I think we've pretty much covered one, save the most obvious. People simply lost interest.

Quote:Because things going on WITHIN a community usually INCREASE activity, especially when it's a fight,

Yea, drama on HoP innit wikkid ?

Totally true though, maybe the chatty stuff gets boring after a while, after all all how long can the great nutella/marmite debate hold your attention ?

Quote:I don't think it's because people have been snippy

Me neither, I figure that's an excuse and part of the greated "couldn't be arsed" idea. I mean, AFIK, this is THE mellowest forum on the internet

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
I do think that (and please dont throw things at me) HoP could do with an element of social networking. The meet others and events sections would be so much easier to deal with if you could register to multiple networks (Manchester, US Festivals, Events that involve cheese, etc.)

Its not that hard to impliment now - I'm actually toying with 3 php social networking tools at the moment. You wouldnt have to loose the forum as a whole. If fact it would still make a very good centrepiece for the community.
It would make gallery posting more relevant to users and all of the individual groups could have their own facebook style forum.

Anyone else have an opinion?

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
^^*agrees with Seye*

But randoms can still post in the threads

Plus us Manc spinners still going strong!

More posts about Cake,

More non-sequiturs and randomness being encouraged

FTAG to stop redirecting everyone's threads to his

I think everyone keeps in contact via FB and MSN now, considering we are all kind of offline friends now...

Which is wierd cos the HoP crew have been, for me, some of the best new friends I have ever met. It's not gone, but its not here:)

ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
Nutella Doc..ewwwww,..............

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
This is probably my first post in over a year. I still pop in now & then but have seem to have slipped back into lurk-mode after being away for so long...

I don't have any solutions for getting people back but would like to make an observation.

Back when I joined in 2003 & used to post lots, I and probably 80% of the people from Ireland & the UK that I got to know through HoP at the time, all had (not so busy) desk jobs with unlimited internet access. Every morning by 9am there was a surge of people online. I used to open HoP before I opened my work email. I would get a quicker response pm'ing someone through HoP than by email. Nearly all of these people have changed jobs now, and companies nowadays restrict internet access. No more skiving on the bosses time. I remember thinking back then that if I ever had my own business & employed people they would never under any circumstances have internet access Unfortunately office managers also copped on to the idea.

But yeah, people move on & do other things. I now have a beautiful 8 month old baby girl, who, like Valura, I wouldn't have at all if it wasn't for HoP. I met her dad through some other HoPpers, & for that I will be eternally gratelful

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
Quote:Back when I joined in 2003 & used to post lots, I and probably 80% of the people from Ireland & the UK that I got to know through HoP at the time, all had (not so busy) desk jobs with unlimited internet access. Every morning by 9am there was a surge of people online

Hey I remember those days and me, being 8 hours behind you would have lots of interesting things to read first thing in the morning. Who needed the daily news when there was HoP.?

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
I think there is a misperception that the seniors lounge is party central. It's not, it's deader in there than in the main HoP forums.

It's a scary day when I am a regular poster

My observations:
- less engagement from UK people with HoP
- less newbies joining and posting intros
- people are carrying hurt of some sort which is affecting engagement
- there are seasonal affects on this board which means more activity at other times

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
Originally Posted By: Stout
Hey I remember those days and me, being 8 hours behind you would have lots of interesting things to read first thing in the morning. Who needed the daily news when there was HoP.?

exactly! Overnight was a hive of activity and I felt I had a lot to catch up on each morning...

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
I dont think many people actually care whether the seniors lounge ,as a separate and essentially secret section, is bustling with action or not.

I think those that care, care about the intention of dividing the forum that way, and what it says about a community.

I cant think of another context where someone would expect another person to feel all that much better about being excluded from a private club by telling them its not all that much fun in the private club that you cant get into anyways... Thats just a really warped message , IMHO.

I was not really aware that that existed. When was it made? It probably happened when I was in thailand, did not have electricity, and was not online so much, or simply not paying attention.Oops.

But now I know, I do want to bluntly state that I find it really offensive, as a concept.

I dont think I need to outline why such an exclusionary structure offends, cause some people have already offered up many of the reasons and I dont have the time or desire to reitterate.

I know, at least a little, many of the people who would be considered the old fogies. I cant really imagine why they would choose to operate that way on HOP. So many of them know each other, and could have any conversations that they did not want newbies to participate in, off forum-- via email, phone calls, or personal meetings. Why have a secret club on here?

I suspect that not having the experienced folk here actively offering up inspiration, has effected some of the dynamics of the forum. If they are not doing so in their own forum either, well, maybe they have just moved on from this site altogether, and those still here will need to step up and contribute some stimulattion and inspiration , if they find it lacking.

Like most things requiring participation to grow, HOP is, and will be, essentially what you make of it.

xoxox
a

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
Originally Posted By: BansheeCatI dont think many people actually care whether the seniors lounge ,as a separate and essentially secret section, is bustling with action or not.


But now I know, I do want to bluntly state that I find it really offensive, as a concept.



Hi Bansheecat, my post wasn't to defend the seniors forum, or even discuss it's merits or demerits, it was to illustrate that the HoP forums, on all levels seem to be dead, which is what I thought this thread was about.

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
Oh, sorry Ade, i think my post came across as harsh following or responding to your comment specifically... Your observation seems spot on, it *is* slow everywhere, apparently... and lots of reasons for that have been offered, all of which probably do play a role in the phenomenon.

It was more of a general statement about the seniors lounge, and I commented on it because several others in this thread have also mentionned that it was slow in the seniors forum, as though to say "your not really missing anything" to those that can not see or participate in it. I just feel like that misses the point, which is that people dont feel a strong sense of being a valued part of a community if they are restricted from participating in certain sections of it.

But perhaps that sentiment is only tangentally related to the subject of this forum, and I should post it in a thread on how people feel about the seniors forum. Although I suspect that whole dialogue already happened, and I just missed it! lol. Oh well.


Sorry if it seemed I was over reacting or misunderstanding your post ! I had been thinking for a couple days about whether or not to mention what i thought about the whole idea of a separate forum( old news to most, but i just realized it existed!) , and your post just brought it to mind again and prompted me to put it into writing!

xoxox
a

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
When I was describing the fogie forum as slow, I was hoping to communicate the message of "failed experiment"

For some unknown reason, I was under the impression that it had been opened up to everyone, but that doesn't seem so.

Posted: 24th Nov 2008
Mike, people have been posting ideas and suggestions. Lots and lots of them.
What is there that you are not hearing?

And like I said, if you really believe there is an issue why are you not starting posts elsewhere instead of waiting to reply?
In order for this community to work here everyone needs to be proactive instead of waiting to be reactive.

I also agree with Rouge. This isn't the super close knit community it once was. It can't be. It's like a family party with 10 is close knit, a family reunion where you can't even name the random guy in the corner isn't. Numbers change the feel.
I also agree with Ade, the arguements and hurt caused have too.
It is far from the same community it was years ago.

That, btw, is not to say it is better or worse, just different. I like fresh meat.er..new bloo..er...new people because they bring a new perspective, ideas and enthusiasm to the board.

Now, here's another thought.
Many people are now coming to poi through festivals. HoP is not the only or huge resource that it once was thanks to all the other sites online now. Therefore, traffic being directed here by outside sources is slowing down. It used to be that I would run into someone and they would say "Have you heard of HoP?" hehe. Now it's "Are you on....?" and a list follows, and *sometimes* HoP is on it.
This is not to mention that HoP is not advertised at juggling festivals and the like, that attract new people who are interested in these arts. So, a group of HoPpers throws a juggling festie...and they are all already HoPpers.
A group of HoPpers goes to a *huge* juggling festie (IJA or EJC or BJC) and HoP is not a focus, and I've seen HoPpers pretty much stay together at them which, being a shy person in those situations, is damn intimidating. Also, I know many people who left the festie scene years ago. There is so much potential for attracting new people to the bb's in rl that seems..lost as well.
Now, this is something that is primarily in the hands of Malcolm however, I can recall a time when nearly every intro had "I saw this at a festival" or some such tacked onto it..and I just don't see that either anymore, and since the northern hemisphere festie season just wrapped up...we should have.
So somewhere there is a disconnect happening in rl.

Now, it could easily be that people are sick of seeing it at festies. That happened years ago, complete with an article "Douse it: The exhausted art of fire dance" (which was quite right actually). It'll die down for a bit and then pick up. My main customer for booth purchase were young families, a definate shift from years past.

All of that plays into the functioning demographic of the bb.

See, keeping this alive Mike, isn't just about the people who were here before, or are here now, we also have to get new people coming here...and as I see it, that is also part of the problem.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK