Forums > Social Discussion > Immigration
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HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
So today I noticed that half the stores in my neighborhood (prominantly Latino) were closed.
Here's Why.
And I support the workers. They make our country run. Things would cost many times more without them...and their kids often do very well and go on to live the dream that the parents have.
I care for these people's children, I live with them, I speak their language, I patronize their businesses, and I remember that I, too, am a minority and a descendent of immigrants.
And I hope this country feels the sting of their absence.
So today I noticed that half the stores in my neighborhood (prominantly Latino) were closed.
Here's Why.
And I support the workers. They make our country run. Things would cost many times more without them...and their kids often do very well and go on to live the dream that the parents have.
I care for these people's children, I live with them, I speak their language, I patronize their businesses, and I remember that I, too, am a minority and a descendent of immigrants.
And I hope this country feels the sting of their absence.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
ditto. good luck to em.
ditto. good luck to em.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
the 1337 poier
346 posts
Location: england
the 1337 poier
346 posts
Location: england
Posted:
even though i dont live in america i still agree and...really mike...your latino?
even though i dont live in america i still agree and...really mike...your latino?
ive got a fuzzbox and im not afraid to use it
R.I.P. gayfest
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
I likes immigrants. Best of luck to them.
I likes immigrants. Best of luck to them.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Speaking of which... anybody know a good immigration lawyer?
Speaking of which... anybody know a good immigration lawyer?
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Looking to creep over the border to Canada?
Looking to creep over the border to Canada?
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
SILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
*squeeee!* You guys are so sweet! *wonders which country you will live in!*
I think that the immigrants are widely taken for granted and Im so so impressed that they are taking this united stand... If I was in the USA I would be supporting them all I could.
Written by: NYC
Speaking of which... anybody know a good immigration lawyer?
*squeeee!*
You guys are so sweet! *wonders which country you will live in!*I think that the immigrants are widely taken for granted and Im so so impressed that they are taking this united stand... If I was in the USA I would be supporting them all I could.
TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Nope. Never said I was. But I work in the Bronx taking care of the kids who live there. I'm fluent in Spanish. I live in East (Spanish) Harlem. These are my friends, coworkers, patients, and neighbors. They've adopted me into their culture and thier way of life. And they add to the diversity, color, and beauty that is the good part of living in this country.
I have to support them.
Written by: the_poier
even though i dont live in america i still agree and...really mike...your latino?
Nope. Never said I was. But I work in the Bronx taking care of the kids who live there. I'm fluent in Spanish. I live in East (Spanish) Harlem. These are my friends, coworkers, patients, and neighbors. They've adopted me into their culture and thier way of life. And they add to the diversity, color, and beauty that is the good part of living in this country.
I have to support them.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
Has sharp edges
1,266 posts
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA
Has sharp edges
1,266 posts
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA
Posted:
well NYC seeing as you'll be married theres no problem if you reside in the states but if your on the other side of the pond I have no idea
Written by: NYC
Speaking of which... anybody know a good immigration lawyer?
well NYC seeing as you'll be married theres no problem if you reside in the states but if your on the other side of the pond I have no idea
My ADD makes it so that.....Ooooo SHINY.....wanna go ride bikes....wait....where am I.....
Diamond In The Rough
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posted:
I have no problem with latinos in this country, they have as much right to come here as everyone else. All I ask is that they sign up for the newsletter when they do. It only makes sense to grant illegal immigrants who are already in America their citizenship. They aren't here to cause havoc, they're here to work, and work they do! And, imagine the boon of 11,00,000 people all suddenly paying taxes. Not that our government will spend it wisely, but it might help lighten the burden the rest of us face.
Simply deporting them would be pointless and expensive. And even if that was your plan, we'd still have the insanely porous border to fix first.
EDITED_BY: Prometheus (1146603600)
I have no problem with latinos in this country, they have as much right to come here as everyone else. All I ask is that they sign up for the newsletter when they do. It only makes sense to grant illegal immigrants who are already in America their citizenship. They aren't here to cause havoc, they're here to work, and work they do! And, imagine the boon of 11,00,000 people all suddenly paying taxes. Not that our government will spend it wisely, but it might help lighten the burden the rest of us face.
Simply deporting them would be pointless and expensive. And even if that was your plan, we'd still have the insanely porous border to fix first.
EDITED_BY: Prometheus (1146603600)
Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.
Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
Everyone has a God given right to be a U.S..... not just those that live close enough to sneak across the border. We should offer free citizenship to those that fly here as well.
Everyone has a God given right to be a U.S..... not just those that live close enough to sneak across the border. We should offer free citizenship to those that fly here as well.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
If they're willing to work, and they are, then I don't see why not.
If they're willing to work, and they are, then I don't see why not.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Posted:
Funny story...
I know a guy who is Mexican, made the trek up here (wouldn't tell me legally or not but I could guess which) and was planning to stay and work in chicago 5 years to make money.
Well it's been a little more than two years and he's made more than he could have in a decade back in mexico, and he's going home early to start a business.
So I guess the American dream still is alive.
-Proud to be American and proud to give others the right to be so as well, if even a little while.
Funny story...
I know a guy who is Mexican, made the trek up here (wouldn't tell me legally or not but I could guess which) and was planning to stay and work in chicago 5 years to make money.
Well it's been a little more than two years and he's made more than he could have in a decade back in mexico, and he's going home early to start a business.
So I guess the American dream still is alive.
-Proud to be American and proud to give others the right to be so as well, if even a little while.
To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire
SILVER Member
your new best enemy
246 posts
Location: over the river, through the woods, USA
your new best enemy
246 posts
Location: over the river, through the woods, USA
Posted:
hell... to the natives, in their tiny little fenced in reservations, we're all wetbacks. so anyone who doesn't support the immigrants, legal or not, should go buy a blender, turn it on, and have sex with it. and that's all I have to say about that.
hell... to the natives, in their tiny little fenced in reservations, we're all wetbacks. so anyone who doesn't support the immigrants, legal or not, should go buy a blender, turn it on, and have sex with it. and that's all I have to say about that.
I'll get there too late if I shorten my stride, I'll get there too soon if I find me a ride, I'll never move forward if I try to hide this path that I've troden one step at a time.
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
By anyone, I assume you mean Mexico. Illegal immigration is a felony there. We should protest them.
By anyone, I assume you mean Mexico. Illegal immigration is a felony there. We should protest them.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I disagree.
There is a difference between legitimate and illegal...and that is where my line in drawn. I know a crapload of legal Americans who are willing to work for any amount of reasonable money, and can't get jobs. How is encouraging people to accept a lower wage and a lower standard of living helping this country? How is it helping the thousands of **legal** citizens who are jobless and are willing to work? How is it helping teach businesses that such exploitation is NOT okay, especially not at the expense of tax paying citizens who are "willing to work". You know I love you Mike, but that is piss poor criteria.
I grew up a town surrounded by fields worked my illegal immigrants, and I know how they treated my friends and family. I also saw how they treated their families and each other. And when I learned Spanish, I know what they were saying, thinking I didn't understand and I sure as hell did not appreciate it (which I let them know in Spanish, as well as where to go, and left them there speechless).
My friends went to some of the farms looking for summer work and were turned down because of these people already having the jobs.
My son has had to wait in the emergency room when someone who didn't have a legal right to be in the country was receiving medical care paid for by MY taxes, even though he arrived first and had a 105 fever (other child had a broken finger). They had no id papers and wouldn't/couldn't speak American.
I've worked in a government subsidized school which catered to the ILLEGAL immigrant children. I've seen how many do not do well. I have seen my tax dollars at work supporting people who didn't have the decency to go through the proper channels, learn the language and be honest citizens.
I'm sorry, but if you want to be a contributing member of this society, then pay the damn taxes and be legal like anyone else. It may be a hard process, a long one but anything worth having is worth the time and the patience.
I don't buy from farms that employ illegal immigrants. I would rather support someone who has set up a legitimate business, put in the hours and shown that they really want to be a member of this society rather than someone who sneaks across the border.
And we are not just talking Mexicans here. You all know that right? Up here near the Canadian border multitudes of people die every year attempting to cross the Niagara River, the Great Lakes and other areas to get into the US. Mostly they are Asian and Middle Eastern.
Then there is Florida, where boatloads of Cubans and Haitians attempt to come. Did you know that a high percent of them have AIDS? Did you know that when they are caught, their country doesn't want them back so they are held in a jail manned and funded by our military but in Cuba? Did you know that our military there has to wear rubber protective gear while on duty because these people are so desperate they will cut themselves and rush them? I didn't until a few of my friends came back from duty there. Sorry for not wanting them in our country, eating up my money on medicaid because they will be too sick to work.
And no. Here, we aren't feeling the protests at all. Not a skip, or bump, in the world. All of our ethnic based businesses are owned and operated by people who went through the legal passages, and who are not in support of the illegal immigration protests at all.
Do I understand why they want to leave? Sure.
But I will not submit to bully tactics either, which is what this attempt by them is. And besides, what a great way to show how much you contribute to the country...by not showing up to a job you legally shouldn't have anyway. Way to think that through. Perhaps learning the language and becoming properly legal might be a better way to prove it...like many, MANY of my friends and members of my family did.
I support immigration. I think it adds alot to any country.
I support tough immigration laws, for every country. I think more need to be closer to Australia's actually. I think there needs to be standards, and those wanting into a country should live up to them.
Jaero, the comment about Native Americans was done by a comedian all over the radio stations this morning, and then mocked hard core...especially since a high percentage of Americans have Native in them now.
I disagree.
There is a difference between legitimate and illegal...and that is where my line in drawn. I know a crapload of legal Americans who are willing to work for any amount of reasonable money, and can't get jobs. How is encouraging people to accept a lower wage and a lower standard of living helping this country? How is it helping the thousands of **legal** citizens who are jobless and are willing to work? How is it helping teach businesses that such exploitation is NOT okay, especially not at the expense of tax paying citizens who are "willing to work". You know I love you Mike, but that is piss poor criteria.
I grew up a town surrounded by fields worked my illegal immigrants, and I know how they treated my friends and family. I also saw how they treated their families and each other. And when I learned Spanish, I know what they were saying, thinking I didn't understand and I sure as hell did not appreciate it (which I let them know in Spanish, as well as where to go, and left them there speechless).
My friends went to some of the farms looking for summer work and were turned down because of these people already having the jobs.
My son has had to wait in the emergency room when someone who didn't have a legal right to be in the country was receiving medical care paid for by MY taxes, even though he arrived first and had a 105 fever (other child had a broken finger). They had no id papers and wouldn't/couldn't speak American.
I've worked in a government subsidized school which catered to the ILLEGAL immigrant children. I've seen how many do not do well. I have seen my tax dollars at work supporting people who didn't have the decency to go through the proper channels, learn the language and be honest citizens.
I'm sorry, but if you want to be a contributing member of this society, then pay the damn taxes and be legal like anyone else. It may be a hard process, a long one but anything worth having is worth the time and the patience.
I don't buy from farms that employ illegal immigrants. I would rather support someone who has set up a legitimate business, put in the hours and shown that they really want to be a member of this society rather than someone who sneaks across the border.
And we are not just talking Mexicans here. You all know that right? Up here near the Canadian border multitudes of people die every year attempting to cross the Niagara River, the Great Lakes and other areas to get into the US. Mostly they are Asian and Middle Eastern.
Then there is Florida, where boatloads of Cubans and Haitians attempt to come. Did you know that a high percent of them have AIDS? Did you know that when they are caught, their country doesn't want them back so they are held in a jail manned and funded by our military but in Cuba? Did you know that our military there has to wear rubber protective gear while on duty because these people are so desperate they will cut themselves and rush them? I didn't until a few of my friends came back from duty there. Sorry for not wanting them in our country, eating up my money on medicaid because they will be too sick to work.
And no. Here, we aren't feeling the protests at all. Not a skip, or bump, in the world. All of our ethnic based businesses are owned and operated by people who went through the legal passages, and who are not in support of the illegal immigration protests at all.
Do I understand why they want to leave? Sure.
But I will not submit to bully tactics either, which is what this attempt by them is. And besides, what a great way to show how much you contribute to the country...by not showing up to a job you legally shouldn't have anyway. Way to think that through. Perhaps learning the language and becoming properly legal might be a better way to prove it...like many, MANY of my friends and members of my family did.
I support immigration. I think it adds alot to any country.
I support tough immigration laws, for every country. I think more need to be closer to Australia's actually. I think there needs to be standards, and those wanting into a country should live up to them.
Jaero, the comment about Native Americans was done by a comedian all over the radio stations this morning, and then mocked hard core...especially since a high percentage of Americans have Native in them now.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
Posted:
thank you pele, you said what I was thinking, except a LOT more coherently
thank you pele, you said what I was thinking, except a LOT more coherently
kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
Posted:
I'm kind of with Pele on this one.
I'm not saying immigration is wrong or that we don't need immigrants, but there's a system in place for a reason, and it's both to protect a country and the immigrants themselves for being targets of exploitation.
Sure, we need people to do the work, but so do the countries they come from. A few years ago there was a panic in the academic circles about the "Brain Drain" where the scientists and engineers were seeing better opportunites abroad and leaving a huge gap, particularly in Europe. It's happening now with the African countries who save to send their children to European and American universities, only for them never to return, taking their new expertise with them.
I sympathise with people who risk their necks to go to pastures greener, but the proper channels are the ones to go through.
I'm kind of with Pele on this one.
I'm not saying immigration is wrong or that we don't need immigrants, but there's a system in place for a reason, and it's both to protect a country and the immigrants themselves for being targets of exploitation.
Sure, we need people to do the work, but so do the countries they come from. A few years ago there was a panic in the academic circles about the "Brain Drain" where the scientists and engineers were seeing better opportunites abroad and leaving a huge gap, particularly in Europe. It's happening now with the African countries who save to send their children to European and American universities, only for them never to return, taking their new expertise with them.
I sympathise with people who risk their necks to go to pastures greener, but the proper channels are the ones to go through.
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
Wow Pele, that was a compelling and well written post. I'm impressed.
America is attractive, and people are desperate to get there whether they have to break the law or not. If the attraction can be attributed to America's laws, style of government, culture, and economic system, perhaps America should devote resources towards exporting those values to other countries.
If everyone has the right to be an America, maybe America should be brought to them rather than making them come to America.
Alternatively, America could make itself a bad place where no one would want to go. Maybe then a wall would be needed to keep the citizens from escaping, something like the Berlin wall.
No, wait, I have it. America should try to make itself just like Mexico. Then, immigrants from further South will have no incentive to keep traveling, Mexicans will see no reason to move, and those that are really motivated will simply pass through to Canada.
Yeah, I like that option. America should start by adopting Mexican characteristics into its symbols of national unity. Maybe have the pledge said in Spanish...
Wow Pele, that was a compelling and well written post. I'm impressed.
America is attractive, and people are desperate to get there whether they have to break the law or not. If the attraction can be attributed to America's laws, style of government, culture, and economic system, perhaps America should devote resources towards exporting those values to other countries.
If everyone has the right to be an America, maybe America should be brought to them rather than making them come to America.
Alternatively, America could make itself a bad place where no one would want to go. Maybe then a wall would be needed to keep the citizens from escaping, something like the Berlin wall.
No, wait, I have it. America should try to make itself just like Mexico. Then, immigrants from further South will have no incentive to keep traveling, Mexicans will see no reason to move, and those that are really motivated will simply pass through to Canada.
Yeah, I like that option. America should start by adopting Mexican characteristics into its symbols of national unity. Maybe have the pledge said in Spanish...
GOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
Posted:
wasn't that the reason for invading Iraq?
(i didn't add afghanistan because the whole 9/11 connection is a bit more teneble (sp?) with that, though i am personally not convinced)
Written by: Patriarch917
America is attractive, and people are desperate to get there whether they have to break the law or not. If the attraction can be attributed to America's laws, style of government, culture, and economic system, perhaps America should devote resources towards exporting those values to other countries.
If everyone has the right to be an America, maybe America should be brought to them rather than making them come to America.
wasn't that the reason for invading Iraq?
(i didn't add afghanistan because the whole 9/11 connection is a bit more teneble (sp?) with that, though i am personally not convinced)
kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
Sure, if we had a fair and reasonable legal immigration process, I would be all with you Pele. But we don't.
I think many people underestimate how difficult it is currently get in under the standard immagration laws. I can only speak about Canada, but we are supposed to be considered lax compared to the americans...
The amount of expense and bureocracy to get legal citizenship here is monumental. Absolutely overwhelming. Even for some nationalities and economic classes, a visitors visa is damn near impossible.
I am fluent english Canadian, and in trying to fill out the various forms to get my Thai fiance here, just for a freaking visit, never mind citizenship, was unreal. Absolute nightmare. Complicated, unclear, no one answers the phone to take questions, different things required at different times... I have had easier calculus exams.I can't imagine how someone unfamiliar with our systems could possibily have managed it. Then the wait, no questions answered, no comment when they say they wont let him in. Keep in mind, this is just for a visitors visa, intitially.We had both sets of parents act as financial guarantors,had return tickets, the whole bit.Everything they asked for.Yet, no go. No response offered as to why. They do not have to justify their refusal.
So, we thought, well, we will just get married, then apply for a marriage visa. Surely they will let a married couple be in the country together. Well, that process takes about 3000 dollars canadian, and a wait of at least a year, up to three years.And they will in no way guarantee that they will let him in Canada even after that. Yikes. So I end up taking the risk of being married to someone who will never be allowed to see my country, or meet my family in their homes? That is the best option my country offers me/him?
The story is long, but eventually, how shall we put it.. he simply no longer wanted to come to a country that was making it so damn difficult for him to simply be with his fiance. Canada/US have pretty big egos as countries, but really, Thailand began to seem quite appealing. Lots of good things there, paradise really.
I guess if there is a point I am making, it is that the legal system is painfully slow, complicated and outright discriminatory- racially, religiously and economically . The basic reason he was not allowed in, the one they can not state outright, is that he is a poor brown man from a province in Thailand that has trouble with Muslim bombings.
Months after this immigration trauma with my Thai man, a German friend simply popped over for a visit, no visa issues at all. One way ticket even. But he is an educated white man, with a wealthy family, from a Euro country. Apparently we dont mind those types coming in.
We let in the rich people, no problem. We let in the nannies , who leave their families behind to care for ours, we let in the educated doctors and nurses, but strangely, we dont even let them get into the programs they need to use their proffessions.. You meet them driving cabs, people with more degrees than I have. We let in those with connections, and those with funds to pay for lawyers to figure out all the legal loopholes. Those are the people that can immigrate legally.
Are those all the people we want?The ones who can buy their way in? I worry what country we create for ourselves if that is it. Canada was made from dirt poor tough resilient half crazy people immigrating and working thier asses off- not forgetting the natives who were here first, we are just now beginning to acknowledge them as full citizens with rights to their own lands. Australia was made of criminals. Yet somehow, we turned out all right, as far as countries go.
I think some of the people that make their way here illegally will be some of the most resourcesful entrepeneurs we can possibily imagine. They will have drive, initiative, creativity...
Eventually, if we let them, they could be fabulous citizens. Some will even pay taxes. Most of our "legal" rich people don't you know, they pay people to help them avoid it.
The immigration system in Canada needs some serious revaluation and improvement.The laws at the moment are unjust and not helping us grow in the ways we need to as a country.It does not surprise me that some people would chose not to respect those laws.
theres my thoughts, rough as they are...
TX for listenning,
Andrea
Sure, if we had a fair and reasonable legal immigration process, I would be all with you Pele. But we don't.
I think many people underestimate how difficult it is currently get in under the standard immagration laws. I can only speak about Canada, but we are supposed to be considered lax compared to the americans...
The amount of expense and bureocracy to get legal citizenship here is monumental. Absolutely overwhelming. Even for some nationalities and economic classes, a visitors visa is damn near impossible.
I am fluent english Canadian, and in trying to fill out the various forms to get my Thai fiance here, just for a freaking visit, never mind citizenship, was unreal. Absolute nightmare. Complicated, unclear, no one answers the phone to take questions, different things required at different times... I have had easier calculus exams.I can't imagine how someone unfamiliar with our systems could possibily have managed it. Then the wait, no questions answered, no comment when they say they wont let him in. Keep in mind, this is just for a visitors visa, intitially.We had both sets of parents act as financial guarantors,had return tickets, the whole bit.Everything they asked for.Yet, no go. No response offered as to why. They do not have to justify their refusal.
So, we thought, well, we will just get married, then apply for a marriage visa. Surely they will let a married couple be in the country together. Well, that process takes about 3000 dollars canadian, and a wait of at least a year, up to three years.And they will in no way guarantee that they will let him in Canada even after that. Yikes. So I end up taking the risk of being married to someone who will never be allowed to see my country, or meet my family in their homes? That is the best option my country offers me/him?
The story is long, but eventually, how shall we put it.. he simply no longer wanted to come to a country that was making it so damn difficult for him to simply be with his fiance. Canada/US have pretty big egos as countries, but really, Thailand began to seem quite appealing. Lots of good things there, paradise really.
I guess if there is a point I am making, it is that the legal system is painfully slow, complicated and outright discriminatory- racially, religiously and economically . The basic reason he was not allowed in, the one they can not state outright, is that he is a poor brown man from a province in Thailand that has trouble with Muslim bombings.
Months after this immigration trauma with my Thai man, a German friend simply popped over for a visit, no visa issues at all. One way ticket even. But he is an educated white man, with a wealthy family, from a Euro country. Apparently we dont mind those types coming in.
We let in the rich people, no problem. We let in the nannies , who leave their families behind to care for ours, we let in the educated doctors and nurses, but strangely, we dont even let them get into the programs they need to use their proffessions.. You meet them driving cabs, people with more degrees than I have. We let in those with connections, and those with funds to pay for lawyers to figure out all the legal loopholes. Those are the people that can immigrate legally.
Are those all the people we want?The ones who can buy their way in? I worry what country we create for ourselves if that is it. Canada was made from dirt poor tough resilient half crazy people immigrating and working thier asses off- not forgetting the natives who were here first, we are just now beginning to acknowledge them as full citizens with rights to their own lands. Australia was made of criminals. Yet somehow, we turned out all right, as far as countries go.
I think some of the people that make their way here illegally will be some of the most resourcesful entrepeneurs we can possibily imagine. They will have drive, initiative, creativity...
Eventually, if we let them, they could be fabulous citizens. Some will even pay taxes. Most of our "legal" rich people don't you know, they pay people to help them avoid it.
The immigration system in Canada needs some serious revaluation and improvement.The laws at the moment are unjust and not helping us grow in the ways we need to as a country.It does not surprise me that some people would chose not to respect those laws.
theres my thoughts, rough as they are...
TX for listenning,
Andrea
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
One of the rights that God has given men is the right to immigrate to Canada and the U.S. Any barier to that entry, whether through making the immigration illegal or through an innefficient and complicated method of entry, is a violation of that right.
Laws that keep people out of the U.S. and Canada are immoral, just like laws that would keep out foriegn products. Just as livestock, food, and technology should be allowed to pass international borders without regulation, taxes, or paperwork of any kind, so should people. Anything else is discriminatory, as it will inevitably lead to some being let in and others kept out. Disrespecting those laws is not only a valid option, it is a duty.
Complex laws administered by unhelpful government workers should be ignored. Otherwise, we will only encourage governments to try to make and enforce more of them.
One of the rights that God has given men is the right to immigrate to Canada and the U.S. Any barier to that entry, whether through making the immigration illegal or through an innefficient and complicated method of entry, is a violation of that right.
Laws that keep people out of the U.S. and Canada are immoral, just like laws that would keep out foriegn products. Just as livestock, food, and technology should be allowed to pass international borders without regulation, taxes, or paperwork of any kind, so should people. Anything else is discriminatory, as it will inevitably lead to some being let in and others kept out. Disrespecting those laws is not only a valid option, it is a duty.
Complex laws administered by unhelpful government workers should be ignored. Otherwise, we will only encourage governments to try to make and enforce more of them.
GOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
Posted:
um, no? and who are you to bring god into this anyway? I'm sorry, but this is not an argument its, imho an absurd outlandish notion, and one that has no place in this thread.
fact: more wars have been fought in the name of god than for any other reason.
see the problem?
Written by: Patriarch917
One of the rights that God has given men is the right to immigrate to Canada and the U.S. Any barier to that entry, whether through making the immigration illegal or through an innefficient and complicated method of entry, is a violation of that right.
um, no? and who are you to bring god into this anyway? I'm sorry, but this is not an argument its, imho an absurd outlandish notion, and one that has no place in this thread.
fact: more wars have been fought in the name of god than for any other reason.
see the problem?
kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
Uhm, I think he was being sarcastic, no?
If so, it does not make your point very well.
Laws do get changed, and one of the ways that happens is through public disobedience and protest.
Almost all societal groups feel some laws are necessary to guide our development and interactions. No arguement there. Taxes that serve a purpose are often supported. It is when these aims goes astray, and the greater good is lost in the bureuocracy, that we need to work as a community to bring them back to a place where they serve our needs as a country. The laws regulations around immigration are some of the most ineffectual we have. We dont necessarily need to remove them, we do need to improve them.
Uhm, I think he was being sarcastic, no?
If so, it does not make your point very well.
Laws do get changed, and one of the ways that happens is through public disobedience and protest.
Almost all societal groups feel some laws are necessary to guide our development and interactions. No arguement there. Taxes that serve a purpose are often supported. It is when these aims goes astray, and the greater good is lost in the bureuocracy, that we need to work as a community to bring them back to a place where they serve our needs as a country. The laws regulations around immigration are some of the most ineffectual we have. We dont necessarily need to remove them, we do need to improve them.
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
GOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA
Posted:
which he was being sarcastic? cuz there were no or 
to indicate sarcasm
which he was being sarcastic? cuz there were no
or to indicate sarcasm kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more
enthusiast
255 posts
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
255 posts
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
Posted:
Hmm...
I can't speak for all Australians, but Australia does NOT need the kind of immigration laws it currently has.
Australia is an island nation. We don't have the kind of border crossing issues that the US does, so please take this into consideration - I'm not criticising the US, just pointing out what Australia does simply doesn't work. Therefore there are two ways for illegal immigrants to enter the country.
a) by aeroplane
b) by leaky boat, generally via Indonesia
If you arrive by aeroplane, it is relatively easy to enter the country, and also to work. Healthcare still comes out of your own pocket. You can send your kids to school. Generally the people that do this are well off and able to afford their very own plane tickets.
If you arrive by leaky boat, you will be cut off at the pass. You are probably from a poor country, possibly leaving the country to flee persecution by unjust governments. You'll be herded into a prison camp (aka Detention Centre) and kept there for years while the Immigration Department decides if you can stay or not. This includes detaining newborn babies.
Now, the Australian government is looking like ramping up their so called "Pacific Solution" in response to pressure from Indonesia following the flight of 43 West Papuan asylum seekers. (If you don't know, West Papua is part of Indonesia which is seeking self-determination, and having the army come down on them very heavily for their efforts.) The "Pacific Solution" is where they take the prison camps overseas, so asylum seekers have the wonderful opportunity of spending years in prison camps in Papua New Guinea and Nauru instead of in Australia, compounding their lack of access to community and legal representation.
That being said, lots of people immigrate to Australia legally for financial and quality of life reasons. Which is great. But why must we persecute those who come across the sea in fear for their lives?
I agree, we need to have control over who we let into our country. But the current system is unjust. The current mean-spirited approach has led to Australian citizens being deported, to little children becoming severely mentally ill. This is not a solution. This is a disgrace.
*gets off soapbox*
Written by: Pele
I support immigration. I think it adds alot to any country.
I support tough immigration laws, for every country. I think more need to be closer to Australia's actually. I think there needs to be standards, and those wanting into a country should live up to them.
Hmm...
I can't speak for all Australians, but Australia does NOT need the kind of immigration laws it currently has.
Australia is an island nation. We don't have the kind of border crossing issues that the US does, so please take this into consideration - I'm not criticising the US, just pointing out what Australia does simply doesn't work. Therefore there are two ways for illegal immigrants to enter the country.
a) by aeroplane
b) by leaky boat, generally via Indonesia
If you arrive by aeroplane, it is relatively easy to enter the country, and also to work. Healthcare still comes out of your own pocket. You can send your kids to school. Generally the people that do this are well off and able to afford their very own plane tickets.
If you arrive by leaky boat, you will be cut off at the pass. You are probably from a poor country, possibly leaving the country to flee persecution by unjust governments. You'll be herded into a prison camp (aka Detention Centre) and kept there for years while the Immigration Department decides if you can stay or not. This includes detaining newborn babies.
Now, the Australian government is looking like ramping up their so called "Pacific Solution" in response to pressure from Indonesia following the flight of 43 West Papuan asylum seekers. (If you don't know, West Papua is part of Indonesia which is seeking self-determination, and having the army come down on them very heavily for their efforts.) The "Pacific Solution" is where they take the prison camps overseas, so asylum seekers have the wonderful opportunity of spending years in prison camps in Papua New Guinea and Nauru instead of in Australia, compounding their lack of access to community and legal representation.
That being said, lots of people immigrate to Australia legally for financial and quality of life reasons. Which is great. But why must we persecute those who come across the sea in fear for their lives?
I agree, we need to have control over who we let into our country. But the current system is unjust. The current mean-spirited approach has led to Australian citizens being deported, to little children becoming severely mentally ill. This is not a solution. This is a disgrace.
*gets off soapbox*
"You've gone from Loey the Wonder Lesbian to everyone wondering if you are a lesbian." - Shadowman
Yesterday is yesterday. If we try to recapture it, we will only lose tomorrow.
SILVER Member
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
member
151 posts
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted:
>>especially since a high percentage of Americans have Native in them now
And what percentage is that??
>>especially since a high percentage of Americans have Native in them now
And what percentage is that??
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
It's the fault of immigration laws that immigrants can't pay taxes. If it weren't for these badly thought out laws aimed at "protecting" the current citizenry then they would be paid full wages and contribute in taxes.
I can't even begin to understand the mindset that is opposed to immigration. It's good for the economy and when managed fairly and responsably good for the society as well. Being born within an imaginary line gives you the right to live within it but not without? Madness. There's just no logical reason to oppose the immigration of workers.
Personally I think it would be lot fairer if there was a big test for everyone in a country, immigrant or not, with everyone that fails getting deported.
It's the fault of immigration laws that immigrants can't pay taxes. If it weren't for these badly thought out laws aimed at "protecting" the current citizenry then they would be paid full wages and contribute in taxes.
I can't even begin to understand the mindset that is opposed to immigration. It's good for the economy and when managed fairly and responsably good for the society as well. Being born within an imaginary line gives you the right to live within it but not without? Madness. There's just no logical reason to oppose the immigration of workers.
Personally I think it would be lot fairer if there was a big test for everyone in a country, immigrant or not, with everyone that fails getting deported.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
To figure out whether someone is a refugee refugee vs. illegal immigrant is one of the things that takes the most time. And the reason that they're locked up is so that they don't bugger off and work illegally or whatever the gov't is scared of.
Ideally, people wouldn't need to be detained. But how can you tell whether someone who has no identification, no papers and no ability to speak english.
Another note, according to the convention regarding refugees:
Australia's the only place i can think of that this counts, and, as far as i know, the only country that hasn't got another one closer to it that Australia is New Zealand. Which is to say, that nearly every country in the world has a nation closer to it than australia. Which means that, technically, the only refugees in australia are from new zealand. And i don't think there are many of those.
What i'm trying to say here, in a nutshell, is that people who've come here from iran, iraq, libya, and everywhere except (technically) NZ, and (orally) most of the indonesian area have had plenty of places to stop at and declare refugee status. Why come half way across the world, to a rock in the middle of nowhere, to do it?
Written by:
But why must we persecute those who come across the sea in fear for their lives?
To figure out whether someone is a refugee refugee vs. illegal immigrant is one of the things that takes the most time. And the reason that they're locked up is so that they don't bugger off and work illegally or whatever the gov't is scared of.
Ideally, people wouldn't need to be detained. But how can you tell whether someone who has no identification, no papers and no ability to speak english.
Another note, according to the convention regarding refugees:
Written by: Article 31.1
Convention relating to the Status of Refugees
The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.
Australia's the only place i can think of that this counts, and, as far as i know, the only country that hasn't got another one closer to it that Australia is New Zealand. Which is to say, that nearly every country in the world has a nation closer to it than australia. Which means that, technically, the only refugees in australia are from new zealand. And i don't think there are many of those.
What i'm trying to say here, in a nutshell, is that people who've come here from iran, iraq, libya, and everywhere except (technically) NZ, and (orally) most of the indonesian area have had plenty of places to stop at and declare refugee status. Why come half way across the world, to a rock in the middle of nowhere, to do it?
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
(a double post, because jeff posted while i was writing)
Sure. But it has to be in the language of the country you're in. And have regards to the current political, social and cultural norms in siad country.
(a double post, because jeff posted while i was writing)
Sure. But it has to be in the language of the country you're in. And have regards to the current political, social and cultural norms in siad country.
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
Germany introduced a law a while ago I think (or tried to??) saying that people seeking asylum could only do so when coming directly to Germany and NOT through another country where they could be expected to live free from whatever they were trying to escape.
Given that most "proper" asylum seekers (i.e. NOT just for economical reasons but those who really can't live in their country) can't exactly board a plane and fly directly to Germany, this was a very convenient law (we don't have that much shoreline, and you probably pass through at least another harbour coming from most countries).
On the other hand, I agree with MiG, I think if you're actually seeking asylum and need it you shouldn't be that picky. If you want to immigrate and make a conscious choice to go somewhere to live and work that's fine, but if your main aim is to get away from somewhere surely you'll be happy to just be away?
Germany introduced a law a while ago I think (or tried to??) saying that people seeking asylum could only do so when coming directly to Germany and NOT through another country where they could be expected to live free from whatever they were trying to escape.
Given that most "proper" asylum seekers (i.e. NOT just for economical reasons but those who really can't live in their country) can't exactly board a plane and fly directly to Germany, this was a very convenient law (we don't have that much shoreline, and you probably pass through at least another harbour coming from most countries).
On the other hand, I agree with MiG, I think if you're actually seeking asylum and need it you shouldn't be that picky. If you want to immigrate and make a conscious choice to go somewhere to live and work that's fine, but if your main aim is to get away from somewhere surely you'll be happy to just be away?
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
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