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MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
This line is from Europe's proposed Constitution:

1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.

biggrin

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Written by: OrangeBobo



Okay. So there's what, 25 countries in the EU, I think. 4 don't use the Euro. That leaves 21 countries you can travel through that all have the same currency. I think that's still pretty good. (They started out with 11 countries that could use the Euro, so I guess it got better somehow.)

Unless the info on the EU site is wrong (ho hum)

~ Bobo




'tis a bit wrong... only 12 of the 15 countries in the EU when the Euro was introduced actually use it, Denmark, Sweden and the UK didn't join the currency union and still haven't. The 10 new member states haven't joined it yet, though some of them are probably quite keen. There are some non-member states located in and between member states that have the Euro, too, including Monaco, Andorra, San Marino and the Vatican, not sure if all of them have introduced it already or are just planning it, but I've seen the Euro designs for them (Pope coins... urgh!!!!).
Luckily Euros are accepted in some other countries, I've found quite a few bars in Edinburgh where you can pay with them if you run out of pounds, plus airports generally accept them, too.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
Written by: Birgit


Written by: vanize


Written by: Birgit


Oh, AND we can understand Americans but they don't understand us most of the time biggrin




that's because most of europe watches american movies and hears american accents all the time. Normal American's only hear chinese, mexican/south american, middle eastern, and indian accents very much on a regualar basis...




Urgh. Tried that before and the post was lost I think! Sorry if it's going to be there twice.

I think you're wrong there, at least Germany has American movies dubbed so we're not that used to the accent. Maybe from music on the radio, but apart from that, no...

But actually I was saying that most Europeans speak English (or Russian if they were in school during the cold war) to some degree, and lots of European countries aim at teaching students at least 2 foreign languages, which I do think is a big advantage. Yes, most Americans and Brits get along well in the rest of Europe because everyone speaks their language, but still... being able to speak foreign languages is cool, and people are much nicer in lots of countries when you actually try ordering your food / buying your stamps etc in their language!

Understanding foreigners speaking your own language is not what I meant biggrin Americans usually don't have a problem understanding me when I speak English.




biggrin

got ya! :P (wasn't really trying to get you, but I figured I'd act that way just for grins)

but you are right - Americans (and Brits usually) are language handicapped - mainly because about the only language you get a chance to practice in any quantity at all besides english is mexican (as opposed to spanish - I can usually more or less understand mexicans, but spaniards not). I am getting to the point that I can actually survive with my german now though after a year - it isn't brilliant, but it begins to work even in social situations. And I am doing well for an American...

Most people actually get taught (as opposed to learn) at least one forgiegn language at school (foriegn languages courses were manditory for me in middle school, high school, and university), but they almost never stick for lack of being able to do anything with it.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
yep, I know what you mean, but then we don't get that much chance to practice our English or French or Spanish (English some more probably) unless we try and leave the country or make pen-/internet pals etc... or watch foreign language channels which I know the US has tons of.

How about:
Europe's better than the US because most of the Americans that bother with foreign languages are IN Europe? :P

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
ubblol

yeah, but you know what - no one hardly let's me speak German here because they all want to practice their english!!!!

You can't win for losing...

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
yeah, I know, my ex-boyfriend had the same problem! He was trying really hard to learn and speak German, but usually whenever he got stuck on a word for a bit people would interrupt and ask in English! He was very upset... I think mostly Germans wanting to "practice their English" is just another expression for Germans wanting to "show off their English", if not to you then to their friends wink Used to be a big thing at my uni! Especially when they all came back from their year in America and wanted to prove how native they sounded *giggles*. Imagine, though it doesn't happen often, people not getting the "th" sound but trying a VERY American "r" in the same word biggrin

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


OrangeBoboSILVER Member
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada


Posted:
Written by: vanize


ubblol

yeah, but you know what - no one hardly let's me speak German here because they all want to practice their english!!!!

You can't win for losing...




Go to a Gymnasium (the highschool kind, not work out kind). Most kids are afraid to use their english (unless they're drunk), and the teachers make you do German. Works for me...

~ Bobo

wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier


dafunkymahnmember
54 posts

Posted:
Well if you like a quiet place to live you will love Europe! You are basically giving up your freedom of speech; yes Europe is better than the US!

Man what an outrageous thing to put in a constitution!

In my opinion that is the exact same thing as telling people what to think, what to act, what to do. mad2

Also I think that the people writing that tid bit have a good idea, however they are going about it all wrong. If you want to get rid of something, especially something OPINION based, you do not and can not get rid of it by making it illegal. Look at the drugs in the US for example, they are illegal yet how many people still use them? Bigotry is a terrible thing, but no law no constitution will get rid of it.

And if any of you disagree with me on this then you would be in violation of that constitution because I would feel discriminated against over my opinion! Ohh perhaps ratifying that constitution could be a good thing, and then I travel to Europe and sue the tar out of the people that discriminate against me because of birth and national minority! Walk around with a pro-Bush t-shirt and a rake for all the cash I could make. See there is a positive way to look at everything, however selfish! biggrin nana

PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
hehe - dafunkytroll is ineffect smile

And Australia does have a constitution (what were you doing in Aussie Studies class Majestik???)

Josh

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


_pOp_BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands


Posted:
Written by: dafunkymahn



Well if you like a quiet place to live you will love Europe! You are basically giving up your freedom of speech; yes Europe is better than the US!



Man what an outrageous thing to put in a constitution!



In my opinion that is the exact same thing as telling people what to think, what to act, what to do. mad2










ok, you must be joking right? as I understand you are an american?

so where do you come off saying europe doesn't have freedom of anything?

if there is any "free country" in the world that isn't, it's the US. you are so blinded by your own government that you can't even see it anymore. America doesn't promote free speech, just free speech about how great america is. say anything against it and you'll be branded a terrorist and thrown in jail.

hey, the system here might not be completely perfect (although I believe the freedom of speech works better here then in the us: the only thing you can't express out loud here are racist believes), but first take a look at what's wrong about your own country before you start ranting about a continent (we still have seperate laws in each individual country).



Written by: dafunkymahn





And if any of you disagree with me on this then you would be in violation of that constitution because I would feel discriminated against over my opinion! Ohh perhaps ratifying that constitution could be a good thing, and then I travel to Europe and sue the tar out of the people that discriminate against me because of birth and national minority! Walk around with a pro-Bush t-shirt and a rake for all the cash I could make. See there is a positive way to look at everything, however selfish!








excuse me? now you want to deny me of my right to disagree? oh I know, this is part of the mentioned above part, where the freedom of speech applies to me not being able to express myself freely about anything you consider to be american.

and the whole sue-ing other people for your own stupidity is still really an american thing. you don't get any of those lawsuits here.

meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!


_pOp_BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands


Posted:
PS: I am not anti-american just anti-pompous arse twats, where-ever they are from.

meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
don't worry PoP - I am American and I agree fully. Bush/Republican america is no longer america - not the idea of america anyway.



edit - I mean about the States critique part - not getting into the person side of thigs here...
EDITED_BY: vanize (1109171718)

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


TheBovrilMonkeySILVER Member
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England


Posted:
Written by: dafunkymahn


*snip* Bigotry is a terrible thing, but no law no constitution will get rid of it. *snip*





So it's not worth a try then? Should we just lie down and accept that people are going to be bigots forever, or should be make an attempt at trying to sort it out?

Stuff like bigotry wins even if people do nothing, you have to actively fight against it to take away it's power.

Written by:


And if any of you disagree with me on this then you would be in violation of that constitution because I would feel discriminated against over my opinion!




Feeling discriminated against and actually being discriminated against are two different things entirely. Disagreeing with you is certainly not discrimination, it's merely voicing my opinion, in the way that free speech allows me to smile

But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.


dafunkymahnmember
54 posts

Posted:
No, it is not a troll; it is voicing my opinion over a proposed article that will limit someone's right to voice their opinion about somebody else.



Freedom of speech gives groups such as the Ku Klux Klan the right to say what they do, I do not agree with it any more than I agree with the Jehovah Witness' right to avoid paying certain taxes.



Freedom of speech also gave people like Martin Luther King Jr., the right to speek out against segregation supported by the state, and freedom of speech also gave Woman's Suffrage the right to fight for the rights of Women throughout the entire country.



If that article is passed you will not have the right to speech out against someone who because you will be discriminating against them and their opinion.





I tried to use sarcasm to demonstrate the potential negative aspects of a constitution like this. It is going to create a loophole for frivolous lawsuits everywhere.



Those who are writing it seriously need to rephrase it or else there is going to be a ripple in the pond that will ruin a lot of people's days.



A preacher wont have the right to preach homosexuality is wrong, a violation of freedom of religion, because it would discriminate against the homosexual.



Parliament Of Peace, I do know the problems of the US government, I am studying political science after all. I am not picking on Europe I am picking on this proposed article to show you all how it can have a very negative effect unless it is rewritten.



Study politics a little before you blindly say that this is a good thing; look at the potential loop holes for harm to others.



Look at it again and you try to come up with the worst case scenario. Then think of how it can be rewritten to avoid that scenario.

_pOp_BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands


Posted:
ok, since I don't know what article you are talking about, I have to refrain from commenting on that.
but I can tell you about the way how things are here in Holland.
we have free speech. just as long as you don't mean fysical harm with it. you can express yourself in hatred against who ever you want, but you shouldn't cross the line.

I'll give 2 examples:

1. ultra right wing governmental parties are allowed here, eventhough everybody knows that they are a racist party, with some fascistic elements. but they have to play by the rules. as soon as they become openly racist so it can be proven they are, they will get banned and are forced to disabondon (is this the right word? I meant to say to make them split up, but that's not the right phraze either) the party.

2. we have a lot of islamic groups and churches here too, and as you might know, the islam is not to keen on homosexuality. but they are allowed that part of their opinion too, untill some iman (head of church) was openly threatening the gays and was preaching about violence against them. that's when he crossed the line and got stopped.

now you see why I got so worked up about your sarcasm?
I believe that we are quite tolerant when it comes to freedom of speech.
one of the fears I have for that one european law thing that everybody is voting about now, is that that might all change...

meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!


dafunkymahnmember
54 posts

Posted:
Okay, I completely understand your res ponce, I also think that you understand me now as well.

However the freedom that an Iman has to condemn homosexuality will be removed, thus not only limiting his freedom of speech, but also religion and it will happen because condemning homosexuality will be against the European constitution because it is discriminating homosexuals.

Discrimination does not have to be violent or even spoken, ignoring someone is discrimination as well.

I think that the idea of making discrimination illegal is great, but I believe the wording will cause more problems than problems corrected.

DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
Written by: dafunkymahn



However the freedom that an Imam has to condemn homosexuality will be removed...








There's loads of people across the world who love to spout rubbish like there's no freedom in Europe and the Nazi's are taking control again, etc... We get it all the time in some of the British tabloids and radio phone ins. Many Americans have taken to this hobby with glee as they're annoyed that Europe told them that American foreign policy was wrong and are standing up against the US government. Which we're not going to get into here!



This line in our proposed constitution says you can not discriminate against people - which means you can not deny equal rights based on many factors. Why is this needed in law? Because laws work and with this in place people who are gay or straight, coloured or white, disabled, Muslim, Christian or atheist, etc... will know that when they're denied a job, a service or a fundamental human right there's legal machinery in place to help them. If you can suggest a better way of dealing with a very real problem then you're free to.



This line does not say that freedom of speech is outlawed - anybody can hold and talk about an opinion as long as it does not incite hatred or violence. You're not discriminated against because we disagree with you - you're just pissed off that we disagree with you!



I think you've over reacted to this for 2 reasons:

1) You don't like the fact that someone said there aren't many Americans in Europe. Get over that - whatever nationality you are you'll find people making little quips and bigger insults against it.

2) You're opposed to this because you're opposed to the ideal it represents - freedom and equality for those you'd rather not accept. This is also something you have to accept - your faith and opinions are one in a multitude of different global faiths and opinions, and many of us in the world, and the overwhelming majority of this board think you're wrong. Therefore, in an attempt to preserve harmony, I suggest you don't pick such topics as battles to fight.

DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
Moderator's Note
I like to think that on HoP this proposed law already exists. We tolerate people's varied opinions. All opinions, especially those that are not readily subscribed to on this site, are best put across in a calm and non-offensive manner without shouting or ranting. However I fully understand people get emotional and carried away on some topics! Posts which turn into rants and battles are not looked open with open minds, or favorably when Moderator's review posts.

Recognise that other people have differing opinions and respect their opinion, just as you would hope yours would be.

We do tend to have a low tolerance of those who post illegal, insulting, derogatory and discriminatory material against individuals and groups. If anyone feels that any posts break the rules of HoP and/or are unsuitable then please use the Notify icon notifymod to let us Moderators know about it. We do get round to reviewing every notification. We're also available via PM.

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
There is something I disagree with. I disagree with the fact that Germany has banned Neo-Nazi groups and swastikas, etc.

I am a Jew. I know well the danger that these groups present. I hate them with every fiber of my being and I would die to see them dead.

And yet I will also defend with my life their right to hold their views because I see no difference between banning THEIR speech and banning MINE.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
lightning, I feel that you need to go to Germany and speak to some Germans before condemning their treatment of Nazis. Those people are carrying around a lot of baggage - and I think they need laws like that to help them deal with cultural fallout of the holocaust.

Vanize might be able to correct me on this?

Josh

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


dafunkymahnmember
54 posts

Posted:
Dom I strongly disagree with your first post.

The proposed constitution does in deed remove freedom of speech and religion. Discrimination can and has been viewed as rejection to an organization based on the applicants sex, age, race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation.

A religious group who refuses the membership of a homosexual because the fact that they are homosexual would be in violation of that proposed constitution. Now when that happens what will the government do? Not allow the religion to practice? Tell them to change their views? Now you have government removing someone’s freedom of religion.

It also states that you can not discriminate against someone’s opinion; this means that if someone were to attempt to enter a public abortion clinic wearing something that condemned abortion that if the person would be removed the person and organization would be held liable for discrimination simply because the person wore a shirt voicing their opinion on abortion. Now you have the removal of someone’s freedom of speech.

As I have said repeatedly the idea of this constitution is good, it just needs to be rewritten because as it is now, it can lead to problems.

Dom, I am not angry, where have I shown anger or hostility towards anyone? I did comment on a post where it was evident to me that a person was glad that there were not many Americans in Europe as if there is a disease that Americans carry, as if they were second class people and I reported it to the Mods! I did not think that it was appropriate. It was not just what was said but it was perceived. A simple statement "There are not many Americans in Europe." is not something to be upset about, however when "At least there are not many Americans in Europe." said in a reply to something that is derogatory about Americans or America then it is something to complain about. It is the context that something is said, that is the important thing. Apparently you failed to look at the context.

Perhaps if you have a complaint about my complaint you should have addressed it in privet instead of public.

As far as item two on your hit list where do you get off saying that I am against "freedom and equality", freedom and equality are the EXACT reason that I wrote what I did. Because I saw a potential problem with the preservation of freedom and equality in that draft of the European constitution.

"your faith and opinions are one in a multitude of different global faiths and opinions, and many of us in the world, and the overwhelming majority of this board think you're wrong"

So because they think that I am wrong I should not post while those that do no agree with me have the go ahead to post whatever they feel? Why do they have the right to speak out against something or for something but I do not? Simply because they are the majority how is that equality?

See now I am angry because you have just told me that I am not equal enough to post my opinion and belief while others can right after preaching about equality and freedom. That is not preservation of harmony that is you saying that since you do not agree with what I say, I should not be allowed to say it. That is discrimination.

_pOp_BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands


Posted:
Written by: dafunkymahn


Dom I strongly disagree with your first post.

The proposed constitution does in deed remove freedom of speech and religion. Discrimination can and has been viewed as rejection to an organization based on the applicants sex, age, race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation.

A religious group who refuses the membership of a homosexual because the fact that they are homosexual would be in violation of that proposed constitution. Now when that happens what will the government do? Not allow the religion to practice? Tell them to change their views? Now you have government removing someone’s freedom of religion.






no it doesn't. it will still allow discrimination, just up to a certain level, like Dom said:

Written by: Dom


This line does not say that freedom of speech is outlawed - anybody can hold and talk about an opinion as long as it does not incite hatred or violence.




besides I don't think that a homosexual will believe in the rightness of such a moment and as such have no desire to join it. hypothetical as it may be.
on the other hand, wasn't it up to recently (or maybe still) that there were no homosexuals allowed in the US army by law? weren't they put to court when outed?

meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!


OrangeBoboSILVER Member
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada


Posted:
Written by: Josh


lightning, I feel that you need to go to Germany and speak to some Germans before condemning their treatment of Nazis. Those people are carrying around a lot of baggage - and I think they need laws like that to help them deal with cultural fallout of the holocaust.





Just a little point about it, I don't know any actual facts about it.. I was talking to my host sister, and I asked how Germans today generally view what happened in WW2, etc... She said that some people were.. hmm, shy aobut it a bit, I suppose, out of fear that people in the world still blame Germans for all the pain and suffering that so many people went though.

I also went to a history museum in Bonn with my organization, and seeing what the German population had to go through after the wars, and after Nazi Germany was taken down... they also went through a lot of suffering, and did an asonishing amount of work. (The two teachers we went with would look at picutres in the museum, and say "my grandmother did that for 2 years, stacking bricks, and sifting through rocks that could be used to rebuild all the buildings that were demolished").

That's only what I've heard, no actual real facts about anything though...

~ Bobo

wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier


vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA


Posted:
note that today's neo-nazis have nothing to do with real nazis other than hitler worship. they have a different adjenda (besides being racist) than the nazis did, and are generally doing nothing except being anarchistic racist twerps rebelling against everything and trying to blame jews for their own (the neo-nazi's) bad behavour. If the real nazi's came back into power, the first people they would exterminate would be the neo-nazis.

Germans still understandably have a lot of national guilt - anyone would, and it is exacerbated by the fact that no one will let them forget, even though the majority of people here now weren't even alive when the nazis ruled.

I do object to how the germans handle it though - I think they make the problem worse by completely prohibiting the reproduction of the swastika in anyway - they give the negativity of the symbol more power that way. I also think it is in bad form for a free society to make a restriction like that. It is an understandable law in the immediate post-war period when there was some concern about real surviving nazis reforming the political party, but it is not helpful now.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Hi all... if you have more questions about Germany, Nazis etc feel free to pm me cause it's probably not really the topic of this thread. However, there's a few points I'd like to state about this cause it's a topic that does affect me a lot, partly because it seems to be quite fashionable in the UK to call bad things in general, like tight control on workers in companies etc, "Nazi"-something. Also, referring to Germans as "Nazis" even today is something I've encountered a couple of times here. Plus of course Prince Harry's dressing up as a Nazi, combining a modern German army jacket with a shirt with Swastikas. No need to comment on any of that here, I assume that the vast majority of HoPers doesn't agree with that smile

But:
1. Straight after the war, Germany DID have a hard time. I'm not moaning cause neither was I alive there, nor do I think we didn't bring that upon ourselves. The stories about grandmothers picking through debris are absolutely true; after all, it was predicted that Germany would be clear of all the rubble etc about 20 years later than it actually was, and with lots of men dying in the war, everyone had to help. There are huge hills outside many towns as monuments to that time, they're made out of WW2 debris and grown over now.

2. Showing swastikas etc is showing that you support people who think discrimination is right, so I don't mind them being banned, people can still have their opinions and voice them, but to allow them to display them with flags is something I can't and won't approve of. On the other hand, Lightning, saying you'd die to see them dead is something I can't approve of either. Don't you think wanting to see someone dead is worse than wanting them to stop displaying signs of discrimination and approval of violence?

3. This is my personal experience about how Germans deal with their past, and probably I'm going to get some evil replies to that, but this is what I feel.
There is NO right way for Germans to deal with their past. Whatever we do, someone's going to criticise. So I guess everyone has to find their own way. For me, I don't feel any "national guilt" because although it happened in Germany, and it was of a dimension that's hopefully never going to happen again, I was not involved and I don't feel guilty.
When I was in Israel a few years ago, a couple of (not all, don't get me wrong!!) people said I should feel guity because the guilt is passed down through the "chain of generations", and ONLY Germans could do something like that. The same people asked me what my grandparents did in the war before they even asked my name. And the same people, on the same day, said things like "I want all Arabs dead" and "torturing Palestinians is right". So I sometimes wonder who hasn't learned anything from the Holocaust.
A few weeks later, I read an article written by a Jewish author on how hard it is to talk to Germans in a relaxed way about the Holocaust, and that they always seem to take a defensive position.
Again, even now, whenever a chancellor or president visits Poland the apology for WW2 is on the list of things to say. So with so many people expecting apologetic and guilty behaviour, how can we NOT be tense about the past?

Personally, I wish people would stop associating the Germany of today with the Nazi government, because, even though the country's not perfect, we are one of the more democratic and tolerant countries in the world. We have millions of foreigners living in Germany. Some of them are living there for the 3rd generation now. And every year Turkish girls get killed in Germany by their families for not marrying the man they were supposed to or for dressing and behaving like a German, not for being foreign.

I don't approach people of other nations reminding them of how they killed Native Americans, completely extinguished Tasmanians or sold African people to work on cotton fields, and I wish people wouldn't do this kind of thing to me, either. It is wrong assuming that anyone from a certain country, race etc will share the views of his fellow countrymen, be that now or what they believed in 60 or more years ago. (YES this IS going to cause controversy. I'm not defending anything Germans did to Jews or putting things on the same scale though.)

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Written by: Josh


lightning, I feel that you need to go to Germany and speak to some Germans before condemning their treatment of Nazis. Those people are carrying around a lot of baggage - and I think they need laws like that to help them deal with cultural fallout of the holocaust.





I fully appreciate the mass guilt that the Germans feel. However, banning Nazism won't fix the problem. I guarantee that Nazism will not return in Germany for the forseeable future, banned or not.

But Nazism itself isn't the problem, per se. It's the MINDSET that can lead to something like Nazism. So it was Jews last time. Who's it gonna be this time? And because they might hate, say, Catholics (or whatever), rather than Jews, they aren't Nazis...and so they're permitted.

What will Germany do to prevent that?

See, the Anti-Defamation League was started after the Holocaust with the cry to action of "NEVER AGAIN!"

Unfortunately "Never Again" has become again and again, with the Hutus and the Tutsis in Rwanda, the Croats and Serbians in the former Yugoslavia, the Kurds in Iraq, etc. etc. etc. And until we can find the root causes of these genocides, genocide will always be a part of our world.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


BirgitBRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)


Posted:
Lots of psychologists have dealt extensively with the causes of genocides, but knowing them doesn't prevent the genocides from happening. If you have a population that's scared of something, and add a leader's control of information and manipulation thereof, fear can turn into hatred and violence in no time.



I can however assure you that, especially in the younger generations, Germans don't feel that much mass guilt anymore. Instead we feel a kind of responsibility to not repeat past mistakes.



And yeah, it's not that "common" (excuse the choice of word, but my English is only that good and I can't find a better one) to be antisemitic anymore, nowadays people are scared of Arabs, dislike Christians (there was a thread encouraging that on here not so long ago) or run campaigns against people who are NOT Christian but homosexual or encouraging abortions.



What will Germany do to prevent it? Well, what do the US do to prevent hate of Arabs? What do they do to make homosexuality more accepted? Maybe that EU constitution bit you quoted shows that Europe at least tries. You can never eliminate hatred out of a population, and there will always be idiots following the ones that shout the loudest (who are, sadly, mostly very wrong). Fortunately most countries are so closely observed that large-scale discrimination, violence etc doesn't go unnoticed, but UNfortunately especially in the case of Africa lots of people just don't seem to care.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half


Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)enthusiast
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA


Posted:
1. When fighting discrimination, the law comes first. THEN the changes in people's hearts and minds, over decades and generations, and many lawsuits and prosecutions. This is how it worked with racial discrimination in the US. Not that it's ended, but most 20-somethings today would be outraged to see a "whites only" sign on anything; when I was a child it was perfectly legal, and not uncommon in parts of this country, though not where I lived.



2. The PROPOSED European Constitution may not pass in that form. I predict that Spain and Italy (at least) will object to the "sexual orientation" clause. At least the Europeans are trying. Contrast the US where Bush won in part on the strength of trying to write anti-gay discrimination INTO the Constitution!



3. South Africa's constitution forbids discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, the first national constitution to do so (correct me if I'm wrong; that's what I heard when it was passed).



4. The US Constitution is the main object of my patriotism. I think that the current administration is deeply unAmerican, in fact I think most of them should be in prison--many for treason. IMHO.
EDITED_BY: Xopher (aka Mr. Clean) (1109349536)

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations


dafunkymahnmember
54 posts

Posted:
Xopher I disagree with your first point, a desire to have change must come before the law otherwise who is there to make the law? If nobody wants the law there will be nobody lobbying, no body get the perverbial "ball" rolling.

Case in point, Martin Luther King Jr. was fighting segregation long before it was outlawed. He fought to make segregation illegal then it became a fight to get the law enforced.

SpitFireGOLD Member
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada


Posted:
Martin Luther King Jr. Was a minority fighting for the rights of minorities. I Don't think the majority of Americans supported the movement, but I wasn't around then, so I can't say for certain.

I've been told by many of my elders that a majority of Americans were very much against interracial marriage...it took a court order to make that legal.

Just food for thought.

Part of the court's job is to make sure the minority do not get oppressed by the majority.

Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.


Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)enthusiast
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA


Posted:
I WAS around for that, though not particularly compos mentis. DFM, you misunderstand my point. (I don't understand how, since I was pretty explicit.) Obviously I'm not saying that the law has to come before ANYONE wants it; where would the law come from, the Martians? No, I'm saying the law has to come before the MAJORITY changes their ways. Revolution begins in the signifier.

SpitFire, the majority of Americans didn't support civil rights. In fact, JFK proposed a Civil Rights Act which got absolutely nowhere, because he was a Northeastern Lib'rul. LBJ, a Southern Conservative, proposed an almost identical law and it passed. Such is politics.

And you are correct about interracial marriage. People said it went "against god" to allow "miscegenation" as it was then called. The last law against interracial marriage was just removed from the books a couple of years ago; it was invalidated by the Supremes' ruling, but would have sprung back into effect had the current Court reversed the decision.

Tyranny of the Majority is one of the things the US Constitution is designed to prevent. That's the fight the Christists (who are no more good Christians than Osama bin Laden is a good Moslem) are fighting, and that's why they're unAmerican and evil. They want the "Christian majority" to make all decisions about everything, including things that are none of their business, like who I or you choose to marry.

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations


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