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still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
The Giving Firestaff
adapted(ripped off) from Shel Silverstein
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was once a great practice staff, and a novice twirler. They would spend hours and hours together. The boy would palm the staff, get pissed hitting himself with it and generally talk codshit about what he could do with it. And the staff loved the boy.
One day, the boy came to the staff. The staff was delighted and beckoned, "Come and play!" But the boy was no longer a boy; he was now at uni, and he was interested in pyromania, but he didn't know how.
"Here," the staff said, "take my ends and wick them." The twirler did just that, and the staff was happy.
Years passed, and the staff was lonely without the twirler. One day, he learnt fire acrobatics, and the staff was delighted, but he was now interested in teaching others. He wanted to build a troupe.
"Here," the staff said, "give me to your friends" The twirler did just that, and the staff was happy.
Years passed, and the staff still missed her friend. One day, the twirler returned, and the staff was again overjoyed. But the man was now older and tired of single staff tricks; he wanted to get into exotic shit.
"Here," the staff offered, "Cut me down. Make for yourself a 3 section. Remove my wicking to make fire poi and grow as a twirler" The man did just that, and the staff was happy.
Many years passed, seasons came and went, and the staff was very lonely. She missed her friend, and she often thought about the old days, when they had such fun. Finally, she saw her friend return, and she was delighted.
But the boy was now an old man, no longer able to play or teach or to hit himself 'upside the head. And he was tired. soo fuken tired man.
"Here, my friend," the staff said, "I still have a pretty good wooden dowel left. Won't you use me as a cane?" The old man did that, and the staff was happy.
[ 23 May 2002, 17:04: Message edited by: Bender_the_Offendër ]
The Giving Firestaff
adapted(ripped off) from Shel Silverstein
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was once a great practice staff, and a novice twirler. They would spend hours and hours together. The boy would palm the staff, get pissed hitting himself with it and generally talk codshit about what he could do with it. And the staff loved the boy.
One day, the boy came to the staff. The staff was delighted and beckoned, "Come and play!" But the boy was no longer a boy; he was now at uni, and he was interested in pyromania, but he didn't know how.
"Here," the staff said, "take my ends and wick them." The twirler did just that, and the staff was happy.
Years passed, and the staff was lonely without the twirler. One day, he learnt fire acrobatics, and the staff was delighted, but he was now interested in teaching others. He wanted to build a troupe.
"Here," the staff said, "give me to your friends" The twirler did just that, and the staff was happy.
Years passed, and the staff still missed her friend. One day, the twirler returned, and the staff was again overjoyed. But the man was now older and tired of single staff tricks; he wanted to get into exotic shit.
"Here," the staff offered, "Cut me down. Make for yourself a 3 section. Remove my wicking to make fire poi and grow as a twirler" The man did just that, and the staff was happy.
Many years passed, seasons came and went, and the staff was very lonely. She missed her friend, and she often thought about the old days, when they had such fun. Finally, she saw her friend return, and she was delighted.
But the boy was now an old man, no longer able to play or teach or to hit himself 'upside the head. And he was tired. soo fuken tired man.
"Here, my friend," the staff said, "I still have a pretty good wooden dowel left. Won't you use me as a cane?" The old man did that, and the staff was happy.
[ 23 May 2002, 17:04: Message edited by: Bender_the_Offendër ]
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
How do you change this thing???
1,903 posts
Location: Behind the couch...
1,903 posts
Location: Behind the couch...
Posted:
That'll do staff... That'll do...
--------------------------------------------
A wise man knows everything; a shrewd man, everyone.
That'll do staff... That'll do...
--------------------------------------------
A wise man knows everything; a shrewd man, everyone.
I can't hear you... I have a banana in my ear.
"You mean I'll have to use my brain?... but I use staff!!!" ~ ben-ja-men
veteran
1,325 posts
Location: San Diego, California, USA
1,325 posts
Location: San Diego, California, USA
Posted:
OMG! That story was cool
Mind if I show it to my english teacher?
OMG! That story was cool
Mind if I show it to my english teacher?
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Show it to as many people as possible.
I have recently been meditating on materialism + the relationship between right action + lasting happiness. I grow too attached to things and people in my life that are transient. People whom i love who flit in & outta my life I can understand, but in the words of a close friend, people can sometimes "imbibe" a spirit into material possesions. is it true? that story is a reflection on what happened to my first firestaff, which has taught many.
Is it truly shallow materialism when you fondly love your staff? can such fondness then rooted in the pettiness of the material life?
Aw man meditation stifles my sillyness.
Show it to as many people as possible.
I have recently been meditating on materialism + the relationship between right action + lasting happiness. I grow too attached to things and people in my life that are transient. People whom i love who flit in & outta my life I can understand, but in the words of a close friend, people can sometimes "imbibe" a spirit into material possesions. is it true? that story is a reflection on what happened to my first firestaff, which has taught many.
Is it truly shallow materialism when you fondly love your staff? can such fondness then rooted in the pettiness of the material life?
Aw man meditation stifles my sillyness.
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
How do you change this thing???
1,903 posts
Location: Behind the couch...
1,903 posts
Location: Behind the couch...
Posted:
Narf...
Narf...
I can't hear you... I have a banana in my ear.
"You mean I'll have to use my brain?... but I use staff!!!" ~ ben-ja-men
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
ach, no, laddie
cling strong and true to thy desire for nothing
nothing
is a vast matrix of creation
imbibed with
thine own sweet energy
constantly enlightened
and constantly forgetting
ach, no, laddie
cling strong and true to thy desire for nothing
nothing
is a vast matrix of creation
imbibed with
thine own sweet energy
constantly enlightened
and constantly forgetting
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
that was wonderful!!!!!!
and a thought on materialism.... we do get way too attached to things.... but it isn't always bad.... like in the story, it can be good... if you adapt
that was wonderful!!!!!!
and a thought on materialism.... we do get way too attached to things.... but it isn't always bad.... like in the story, it can be good... if you adapt
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
humanity has devolved into a race of consumers.
what happiness we derive from material possessions is ultimately fleeting. true happiness is sought outside the material space, and inside our psyches. So that is my impasse in a nutshell. i have to let go! How can I move forward when I love my car, my lightsabers, hell even my pet egg (don't ask )? It certainly feels nice...
like a blanket....
"It's a blanket, just a blanket. Now why guys like you and I know what a duvet is? Is this essential to our survival? In the hunter-gathered sense of the word? No. What are we then?"
"You know, consumers."
"Right. We're consumers. We're by-products of a lifestyle obsession. Murder, crime, poverty -- these things don't concern me. What concerns me is celebrity magazines, television with five hundred channels, some guy's name on my underwear. Rogaine, Viagra, Olestra."
"Martha Stewart."
"Fuck Martha Stewart. Martha's polishes on the brass of the Titanic. It's all going down, man! So fuck off, with your sofa units and your green stripe patterns. I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. I say let's evolve and let the chips fall where they may. But that's me, I could be wrong, maybe it's a terrible tragedy."
"No, it's just stuff."
"Well, you did lose a lot of versatile solutions for a modern life."
"Fuck, you're right."
"...My insurance will probably cover [the cost of Jack's apartment that was recently blown up], so..."
"What?"
"The things you own, end up owing you. But do what you like, man."
as you see, the only way be free (to be happy!) is letting go..
humanity has devolved into a race of consumers.
what happiness we derive from material possessions is ultimately fleeting. true happiness is sought outside the material space, and inside our psyches. So that is my impasse in a nutshell. i have to let go! How can I move forward when I love my car, my lightsabers, hell even my pet egg (don't ask )? It certainly feels nice...
like a blanket....
"It's a blanket, just a blanket. Now why guys like you and I know what a duvet is? Is this essential to our survival? In the hunter-gathered sense of the word? No. What are we then?"
"You know, consumers."
"Right. We're consumers. We're by-products of a lifestyle obsession. Murder, crime, poverty -- these things don't concern me. What concerns me is celebrity magazines, television with five hundred channels, some guy's name on my underwear. Rogaine, Viagra, Olestra."
"Martha Stewart."
"Fuck Martha Stewart. Martha's polishes on the brass of the Titanic. It's all going down, man! So fuck off, with your sofa units and your green stripe patterns. I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. I say let's evolve and let the chips fall where they may. But that's me, I could be wrong, maybe it's a terrible tragedy."
"No, it's just stuff."
"Well, you did lose a lot of versatile solutions for a modern life."
"Fuck, you're right."
"...My insurance will probably cover [the cost of Jack's apartment that was recently blown up], so..."
"What?"
"The things you own, end up owing you. But do what you like, man."
as you see, the only way be free (to be happy!) is letting go..
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
SILVER Member
remember
433 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, Milky Way, Universe
remember
433 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, Milky Way, Universe
Posted:
i love that movie
but i think we ARE all beautiful and unique snowflakes!!
oh, very nice story too bender.. and the swedish furniture was happy.
i love that movie
but i think we ARE all beautiful and unique snowflakes!!
oh, very nice story too bender.. and the swedish furniture was happy.
-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
hey bendy ever read "siddhartha" by herman hesse?
made me cry it was so beautiful very much the taste of these our tears of turmoil as we let go of samsara...
also there is a difference netween sacred desire/respect and materialistic desire...love of a staff is not of the material, but of the memories...therefore the attachment is to the feelings...whereas you also have respect and love for those people, which is good! sacred objects are powerful, even if we choose to ignore the energy, and being buddhist means being HERE, so being here, you see that the staff brings hope and joy and discipline, and that is good! so it is okay to respect it, to love it, it still carries in it's molecular latticework the memories and people it has touched...as a statue of the buddha is loved not as a statue but as the symbol of the universe
jeez that makes no sense.
hey bendy ever read "siddhartha" by herman hesse?
made me cry it was so beautiful very much the taste of these our tears of turmoil as we let go of samsara...
also there is a difference netween sacred desire/respect and materialistic desire...love of a staff is not of the material, but of the memories...therefore the attachment is to the feelings...whereas you also have respect and love for those people, which is good! sacred objects are powerful, even if we choose to ignore the energy, and being buddhist means being HERE, so being here, you see that the staff brings hope and joy and discipline, and that is good! so it is okay to respect it, to love it, it still carries in it's molecular latticework the memories and people it has touched...as a statue of the buddha is loved not as a statue but as the symbol of the universe
jeez that makes no sense.
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
in the example of a pet egg, what if the joy derived from the object was not as the emboiment of collected experiences associated with it, that the joy was taken merely because I had it?
A good example is trinkets from past loved ones.
to quote Shirley Manson:
"My Lover's charms are in a box beneath my bed,
and piece by piece, I'll cherish them,
Until the end."
there is the peril in materialism:
Happiness in life is often fleeting and usually confused with an absorption into a pettiness: object or activity whose effect can be joyful, however temporary. true lasting happiness i believe, must be rooted spiritually, as everything else floats in non-permanence --> in that tying one's happiness in the material is kinda like building a castle in the sand.. or sky!
comic relief:
"One day son! ALL THIS'll be yours!"
"What? the curtins?"
"NO! not THE CURTINS! this castle! and 'uge tracts o'land!..."
in the example of a pet egg, what if the joy derived from the object was not as the emboiment of collected experiences associated with it, that the joy was taken merely because I had it?
A good example is trinkets from past loved ones.
to quote Shirley Manson:
"My Lover's charms are in a box beneath my bed,
and piece by piece, I'll cherish them,
Until the end."
there is the peril in materialism:
Happiness in life is often fleeting and usually confused with an absorption into a pettiness: object or activity whose effect can be joyful, however temporary. true lasting happiness i believe, must be rooted spiritually, as everything else floats in non-permanence --> in that tying one's happiness in the material is kinda like building a castle in the sand.. or sky!
comic relief:
"One day son! ALL THIS'll be yours!"
"What? the curtins?"
"NO! not THE CURTINS! this castle! and 'uge tracts o'land!..."
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
well, yeah, okay the pet egg must be disintegrated
well, yeah, okay the pet egg must be disintegrated
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
SSSHhhhH! i sed dun ask!
SSSHhhhH! i sed dun ask!
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
SILVER Member
Intrepid Penguin
5,635 posts
Location: Australia
Intrepid Penguin
5,635 posts
Location: Australia
Posted:
If you give away everything...... and nothing is material because it is no longer yours, then you can no longer be defined by what you own, but who you are......
Scary concept.
Im not giving away my poi tho! ROFL
Bender, i liked your story, purely for the narration of it, nice work `
If you give away everything...... and nothing is material because it is no longer yours, then you can no longer be defined by what you own, but who you are......
Scary concept.
Im not giving away my poi tho! ROFL
Bender, i liked your story, purely for the narration of it, nice work `
Currently on the right side up of the world.
member
184 posts
Location: London
184 posts
Location: London
Posted:
There was an artist who put every single thing he owned into a grinder here in London. I couldn't do it.
But I don't think I'm materialistic at all, and I don't think it's materialistic to have a pet egg, either.
It's part of being human... we're tool users after all, and even though a pet egg doesn't have much use on a physical/physiological level, on a spiritual and emotional level it may have enormous 'value'. Linking physical items to ourselves on an emotional and spiritual level is something which humans have always done. After all, we are part of a very physical world... although we seek for something 'more' than our frail physical selves and many of us hope and believe that we are greater than the sum of our physical atoms, when it comes down to it, we are physical beings.
As humans we are fond of asking ourselves unanswerable questions such as 'what am I doing here', 'what is the point of my life'... materialism is when you begin to believe that your physical possessions, your appearance, your social status provide the answers to these questions. Compare this with philosophy which chooses rationality and logic to try and answer these questions, and religion/spirituality which uses faith... but don't forget, that in the end, the questions are essentially unanswerable. All we can do, as humans, is try and find a solution which makes us, as individuals, happy and keeps us sane (ie, your solution isn't going to be mine, and vice versa).
There was an artist who put every single thing he owned into a grinder here in London. I couldn't do it.
But I don't think I'm materialistic at all, and I don't think it's materialistic to have a pet egg, either.
It's part of being human... we're tool users after all, and even though a pet egg doesn't have much use on a physical/physiological level, on a spiritual and emotional level it may have enormous 'value'. Linking physical items to ourselves on an emotional and spiritual level is something which humans have always done. After all, we are part of a very physical world... although we seek for something 'more' than our frail physical selves and many of us hope and believe that we are greater than the sum of our physical atoms, when it comes down to it, we are physical beings.
As humans we are fond of asking ourselves unanswerable questions such as 'what am I doing here', 'what is the point of my life'... materialism is when you begin to believe that your physical possessions, your appearance, your social status provide the answers to these questions. Compare this with philosophy which chooses rationality and logic to try and answer these questions, and religion/spirituality which uses faith... but don't forget, that in the end, the questions are essentially unanswerable. All we can do, as humans, is try and find a solution which makes us, as individuals, happy and keeps us sane (ie, your solution isn't going to be mine, and vice versa).
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
First off the story was outstanding, very moving to tell you the truth.
I must comment on the artist who put his stuff in the blender... that must have been one hell of blender!!!
First off the story was outstanding, very moving to tell you the truth.
I must comment on the artist who put his stuff in the blender... that must have been one hell of blender!!!
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
The dilemma i am reffering to is a bit..um.. esoteric.
I'll try to expand on it...
the 3 drives of the psyche are the primitive emotions (anger, fear hate lust) the calculating subconcious (where the primitive emotions manifest themselves eg. anger+fear in the primitive level manifests itself as intolerance at the subconsious level) our love, compassion, intelligence is the final, thin layer
to acheive peace hence happiness, we must first become aware of just how extensively we are ruled by our subconscious (eg. we *think* we have free will, but how much of a vice is the subconscious on our behaviour when we road rage? we are prisoners of our primal urges!)
we cannot eliminate this negativity without first identifying it's extent! Man does not only not know, he does not know that he does not know! only through awareness will we awaken the altruism!
this is where materialism poses a problem.
I try to honestly identify the motivation for my materialism -and for the most part, it is ultimately rooted in the petty, the selfish (no matter how innocuous that eggg was!)- there was a part of my materialism that was rooted in positivity - I love my first staff!!!
so I *know* materialism is rooted in negativity, and hence will ultimately cause suffering (no matter how intense the pleasure can be; fleeting) so why can i find a small island of positive motivation in it?
I turn this over in my head considerably, and the above story is a partial venting of this 'positive materialism'
Oh yeah and the egg's name was 'Stinky II' and it was imbued with the halo of an ex that i truly loved spiritually. as with that english artist grinding their gear, I recently 'disposed' of stinky - largely out of curiosity on how i'd feel, and also becuase 4 years is a long time for ANYTHING to smell so progressively rank.
thanks for listening and I appreciate all your help in my struggling understanding.
^_^
The dilemma i am reffering to is a bit..um.. esoteric.
I'll try to expand on it...
the 3 drives of the psyche are the primitive emotions (anger, fear hate lust) the calculating subconcious (where the primitive emotions manifest themselves eg. anger+fear in the primitive level manifests itself as intolerance at the subconsious level) our love, compassion, intelligence is the final, thin layer
to acheive peace hence happiness, we must first become aware of just how extensively we are ruled by our subconscious (eg. we *think* we have free will, but how much of a vice is the subconscious on our behaviour when we road rage? we are prisoners of our primal urges!)
we cannot eliminate this negativity without first identifying it's extent! Man does not only not know, he does not know that he does not know! only through awareness will we awaken the altruism!
this is where materialism poses a problem.
I try to honestly identify the motivation for my materialism -and for the most part, it is ultimately rooted in the petty, the selfish (no matter how innocuous that eggg was!)- there was a part of my materialism that was rooted in positivity - I love my first staff!!!
so I *know* materialism is rooted in negativity, and hence will ultimately cause suffering (no matter how intense the pleasure can be; fleeting) so why can i find a small island of positive motivation in it?
I turn this over in my head considerably, and the above story is a partial venting of this 'positive materialism'
Oh yeah and the egg's name was 'Stinky II' and it was imbued with the halo of an ex that i truly loved spiritually. as with that english artist grinding their gear, I recently 'disposed' of stinky - largely out of curiosity on how i'd feel, and also becuase 4 years is a long time for ANYTHING to smell so progressively rank.
thanks for listening and I appreciate all your help in my struggling understanding.
^_^
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
member
184 posts
Location: London
184 posts
Location: London
Posted:
well, this is one of the more interesting discussions I've had on the net in a long time... thanks.
However I feel that your philosphy is rooted very strongly in the individualistic, liberal (and, dare I say it, patriarchal) philosophies which see humans as being primarily individuals, out for themselves.
This tradition has very deep root in Western thought going right back to the ancient greek philosophers, is reflected in legal systems which value individual rights above communal rights, economic thought which sees humans as individual actors out to maximise their own self interest, political systems in which "democracy" is a competitive process in which different ideologies compete to achieve political power, and last, but not least, psychological theories in which egos superegos, ids, sexual desire etc is at war with the needs and demands of wider society.
As I said, this view of the individual has prevailed within Western culture for much of the last couple of thousand years, and indeed has had a positive effect on many aspects of our lives - I LIKE living in a society where my own personal freedoms are valued as highly as societies demands for conformity. I LIKE living in a society where the medium of exchange... money... allows me to choose how I satisfy my wants and desires. I LIKE living in a society where any property which I work hard to create / acquire is MY property and is protected by law.
However when it comes to psychology and what makes us happy, I have to disagree with the way you (and many other brilliant philosophers who I respect greatly and who have had a profound impact on our society: Locke, Rouseau, Adam Smith, and, probably most pertinent to this discussion, Freud and Jung see things:
..."the 3 drives of the psyche are the primitive emotions (anger, fear hate lust) the calculating subconcious (where the primitive emotions manifest themselves eg. anger+fear in the primitive level manifests itself as intolerance at the subconsious level) our love, compassion, intelligence is the final, thin layer".
The traditional view that 'men' (and yes, all these philosophers are talking about me, because they ARE men) are individuals, out to maximise their own self interest, in a state of perpetual conflict with other men is just plain wrong. Humans are a social animal, and we have been for millions of years. The law of the jungle applies to us only at a racial and tribal level, not at an individual level, because NO human can survive and procreate (our raison d'etre(sp?) as organisms) without the assistance of others of our species. This inevitably means that feelings of connectedness to others, community and conformity are as important, if not more important to the human psyche than is the need to be individual.
Maslow's heirarchy of needs and similar psychological theories provides an interesting counterpoint to the traditional individualist and conflict' based philosophies espoused by earlier philosophers. This site provides a good explanation of the original theory and more recent developments.
https://www.valdosta.edu/~whuitt/psy702/regsys/maslow.html
well, this is one of the more interesting discussions I've had on the net in a long time... thanks.
However I feel that your philosphy is rooted very strongly in the individualistic, liberal (and, dare I say it, patriarchal) philosophies which see humans as being primarily individuals, out for themselves.
This tradition has very deep root in Western thought going right back to the ancient greek philosophers, is reflected in legal systems which value individual rights above communal rights, economic thought which sees humans as individual actors out to maximise their own self interest, political systems in which "democracy" is a competitive process in which different ideologies compete to achieve political power, and last, but not least, psychological theories in which egos superegos, ids, sexual desire etc is at war with the needs and demands of wider society.
As I said, this view of the individual has prevailed within Western culture for much of the last couple of thousand years, and indeed has had a positive effect on many aspects of our lives - I LIKE living in a society where my own personal freedoms are valued as highly as societies demands for conformity. I LIKE living in a society where the medium of exchange... money... allows me to choose how I satisfy my wants and desires. I LIKE living in a society where any property which I work hard to create / acquire is MY property and is protected by law.
However when it comes to psychology and what makes us happy, I have to disagree with the way you (and many other brilliant philosophers who I respect greatly and who have had a profound impact on our society: Locke, Rouseau, Adam Smith, and, probably most pertinent to this discussion, Freud and Jung see things:
..."the 3 drives of the psyche are the primitive emotions (anger, fear hate lust) the calculating subconcious (where the primitive emotions manifest themselves eg. anger+fear in the primitive level manifests itself as intolerance at the subconsious level) our love, compassion, intelligence is the final, thin layer".
The traditional view that 'men' (and yes, all these philosophers are talking about me, because they ARE men) are individuals, out to maximise their own self interest, in a state of perpetual conflict with other men is just plain wrong. Humans are a social animal, and we have been for millions of years. The law of the jungle applies to us only at a racial and tribal level, not at an individual level, because NO human can survive and procreate (our raison d'etre(sp?) as organisms) without the assistance of others of our species. This inevitably means that feelings of connectedness to others, community and conformity are as important, if not more important to the human psyche than is the need to be individual.
Maslow's heirarchy of needs and similar psychological theories provides an interesting counterpoint to the traditional individualist and conflict' based philosophies espoused by earlier philosophers. This site provides a good explanation of the original theory and more recent developments.
https://www.valdosta.edu/~whuitt/psy702/regsys/maslow.html
member
184 posts
Location: London
184 posts
Location: London
Posted:
It occurs to me that the connection between what I wrote and what Bender wrote isn't particularly clear, and that I'm going to be accused of putting words he never said into his mouth... which is true to a certain degree, but you can't have a conversation on the net like this without making certain assumptions.
These are mine:
That your theories of the psyche are largely based on those espoused by Mr Freud and Mr Jung - usually these aren't grouped together, but I am because both these gentleman see the human psyche as a place where certain conflicts have to be resolved before a person can be happy. Both these gentleman's theories were heavily rooted in and influenced by western liberal thought in which the needs and desires of the person as individual were given greater emphasis over the needs and desires of the person as social animal, hence the rest of my post, which was mainly intended to point out that the needs and desires of the person as social animal are generally overlooked by older philosophers.
For a far more learned critique than mine, I would also recommend you read some of the feminist literature relating to some of the liberal philosophers, particularly Locke, as well as feminist critiques of liberal economic theory and philosophy.
If you can be bothered, that is ;p
It occurs to me that the connection between what I wrote and what Bender wrote isn't particularly clear, and that I'm going to be accused of putting words he never said into his mouth... which is true to a certain degree, but you can't have a conversation on the net like this without making certain assumptions.
These are mine:
That your theories of the psyche are largely based on those espoused by Mr Freud and Mr Jung - usually these aren't grouped together, but I am because both these gentleman see the human psyche as a place where certain conflicts have to be resolved before a person can be happy. Both these gentleman's theories were heavily rooted in and influenced by western liberal thought in which the needs and desires of the person as individual were given greater emphasis over the needs and desires of the person as social animal, hence the rest of my post, which was mainly intended to point out that the needs and desires of the person as social animal are generally overlooked by older philosophers.
For a far more learned critique than mine, I would also recommend you read some of the feminist literature relating to some of the liberal philosophers, particularly Locke, as well as feminist critiques of liberal economic theory and philosophy.
If you can be bothered, that is ;p
member
184 posts
Location: London
184 posts
Location: London
Posted:
And now my head hurts!
And now my head hurts!
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
mine does too, but i think it's too early in teh morning.... this is looking really interesting tho... i'll come back and comment when i am awake....
mine does too, but i think it's too early in teh morning.... this is looking really interesting tho... i'll come back and comment when i am awake....
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Sepa, I am quite grateful to hear your perspective on my thoughts materialism, it is playing quite heavily on my mind. I would rather a heavily engaging response than a politley superficial treatment of an important issue. in other words i dun giveafark how badly wrong or boringly right, so long as we both walk away the wiser! (discussing aynthing online denys the other party the abuse of character assasination - woot!) don't be afraid of speakin your mind, cus I'm a big boy now
that said, i'll endeavour to keep concise: (my lecturers always preferred point form!)
1 - there is no point 1. yay! list comedy forever!!
2 - with respect to my belief, any resemblance to "individualistic, liberal (and, dare I say it, patriarchal) philosophies" is only incidental. The last time I looked, My beliefs (outlined above) are actually rooted in a bastardisation of gnostic and Buddhist beliefs (i take from them what I like! yum yum ). When my mind is clear, I have learnt that my psychology is based on one basic principle - compassion. find your coyote today!
2 - Using what little awareness I experienced during last week's reflections, my last thoughts on my materialism are that:
a - materialism is comparative. so it can be minimised. so what is the correct stance?
b - I shouldn't take a hardline stance, because of my beliefs in compassion (compassion for others without first compassion for self will exhaust me)
3 - I do not outright renounce that I live in a society that is based on materialism (not necessarily westernism) with all the implied faults (to renounce a system that I complaing about as much as I live it is as useful as saying "shhhhhhh!" in a mosh pit) - what this thread was originally penned with, was simply the thought that
'if wanting the material (however enjoyable) is ultimately rooted in the bad, then why do i sense good in my affection for my giving staff?
in the exploration of that, the above story was written.
and the staff was happy.
Sepa, I am quite grateful to hear your perspective on my thoughts materialism, it is playing quite heavily on my mind. I would rather a heavily engaging response than a politley superficial treatment of an important issue. in other words i dun giveafark how badly wrong or boringly right, so long as we both walk away the wiser! (discussing aynthing online denys the other party the abuse of character assasination - woot!) don't be afraid of speakin your mind, cus I'm a big boy now
that said, i'll endeavour to keep concise: (my lecturers always preferred point form!)
1 - there is no point 1. yay! list comedy forever!!
2 - with respect to my belief, any resemblance to "individualistic, liberal (and, dare I say it, patriarchal) philosophies" is only incidental. The last time I looked, My beliefs (outlined above) are actually rooted in a bastardisation of gnostic and Buddhist beliefs (i take from them what I like! yum yum ). When my mind is clear, I have learnt that my psychology is based on one basic principle - compassion. find your coyote today!
2 - Using what little awareness I experienced during last week's reflections, my last thoughts on my materialism are that:
a - materialism is comparative. so it can be minimised. so what is the correct stance?
b - I shouldn't take a hardline stance, because of my beliefs in compassion (compassion for others without first compassion for self will exhaust me)
3 - I do not outright renounce that I live in a society that is based on materialism (not necessarily westernism) with all the implied faults (to renounce a system that I complaing about as much as I live it is as useful as saying "shhhhhhh!" in a mosh pit) - what this thread was originally penned with, was simply the thought that
'if wanting the material (however enjoyable) is ultimately rooted in the bad, then why do i sense good in my affection for my giving staff?
in the exploration of that, the above story was written.
and the staff was happy.
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
so as a curiosity point bender, at what point is materialism bad? at what point is it still good?
i know that to some extent this is always a personal choice, but it's one i've been struggling with ove rthe past year or so for various reasons, and so i'd just liek to hear ur opinions...
mucha gracias.
Kyrian.
so as a curiosity point bender, at what point is materialism bad? at what point is it still good?
i know that to some extent this is always a personal choice, but it's one i've been struggling with ove rthe past year or so for various reasons, and so i'd just liek to hear ur opinions...
mucha gracias.
Kyrian.
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
SILVER Member
remember
433 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, Milky Way, Universe
remember
433 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, Milky Way, Universe
Posted:
very good topic... i have lots of thoughts racing around in my head, but am having trouble writing them down.
I think materialism is not all bad/negative. I love my firestaff's, but not because they look sexy, not even because they have a nice personality.. Instead, i love them because of the 'functionality' they provide.. they get me outside in the sunshine, allow/help me to meet new beautiful people, they can calm me down when i'm stressed, etc. etc.
So i guess i'm saying that if a possesion has no other purpose than to simply please our physical existence, then it may be a negative thing.. but if it provides secondary functions such that our spirit/soul/mind is enhanced in some way, then i think it's a positive thing..
* i take no responsibility if this post makes no sense... i'm tired.
very good topic... i have lots of thoughts racing around in my head, but am having trouble writing them down.
I think materialism is not all bad/negative. I love my firestaff's, but not because they look sexy, not even because they have a nice personality.. Instead, i love them because of the 'functionality' they provide.. they get me outside in the sunshine, allow/help me to meet new beautiful people, they can calm me down when i'm stressed, etc. etc.
So i guess i'm saying that if a possesion has no other purpose than to simply please our physical existence, then it may be a negative thing.. but if it provides secondary functions such that our spirit/soul/mind is enhanced in some way, then i think it's a positive thing..
* i take no responsibility if this post makes no sense... i'm tired.
-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.
GOLD Member
enthusiast
249 posts
Location: Canada, Ontario, Toronto
enthusiast
249 posts
Location: Canada, Ontario, Toronto
Posted:
Maybe bad is the wrong word for the possession of material objects...perhaps unnecessary would be a better one. Our survival is not contigent upon the possesion of material objects-and so they serve no real purpose. They are merely distractions which remove us and alienate us from our natural selves.
And could we not take this a step further and say that all attachment is "bad" or unnecessary. That my overwhelming love and protectiveness of my mother and father is not essential to my life. It was when I was five but at twenty it is no longer....and same goes for their attachment to me
...and if I truly choose to walk down the path to enlightenment I would need to let go of all attachments...parents, friends, Pez collections, poi, computer-EVERYTHING!
[ 28 May 2002, 09:04: Message edited by: SunSpot ]
Maybe bad is the wrong word for the possession of material objects...perhaps unnecessary would be a better one. Our survival is not contigent upon the possesion of material objects-and so they serve no real purpose. They are merely distractions which remove us and alienate us from our natural selves.
And could we not take this a step further and say that all attachment is "bad" or unnecessary. That my overwhelming love and protectiveness of my mother and father is not essential to my life. It was when I was five but at twenty it is no longer....and same goes for their attachment to me
...and if I truly choose to walk down the path to enlightenment I would need to let go of all attachments...parents, friends, Pez collections, poi, computer-EVERYTHING!
[ 28 May 2002, 09:04: Message edited by: SunSpot ]
Om Namah Sivaya
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
YES! Clairol herbal essences! yes! Sunspot has it on the nail! and without rambling as much as I! in essence, my stand is that instead placing my focus on being against materialism, I rather remove focus on it.
i like rants. thanks fer hearing!
mmmm Clairol.
YES! Clairol herbal essences! yes! Sunspot has it on the nail! and without rambling as much as I! in essence, my stand is that instead placing my focus on being against materialism, I rather remove focus on it.
quote:The extra significance of grappling with materialism is that it is a prominent and visible 'battleground' where the larger war between our true selves (consciousness) and the egos (primitive emotions, subconcious) To understand that conflict in the context of something as well observed as materialism lets most people take a glimpse at just how much of theirs lives are dominated by it. Most people live their lives unaware of how robotically they respond to the same stimuli, time and again (eg temporary flare of an anger ego will cause an angry worker to quit a job, only later when the ego has subsided will the consciousness -the intellect- realise that error), not truly knowing that true awareness will lie dormant in their lives. With a dormant conciousness/intellect, it is impossible to have peace, because that is when we allow ourselves to be swept up by the many, many egos that play on our behaviour perpetually. To understand that truth can only lead to drastically changing your life - it has marked the point in my life where my thoughts are at their least clouded state. Peace is the result of the absence of emotional turmoil - the absent burden allows me to function with so much more clarity and concentration that many more tasks and goals are acheiveable - nowadays gymnastics + firetwirling + bush raves are my pursuits cus they fit my personality -> but europe/usa is gunna be the sweet one! wooty.
perhaps unnecessary would be a better [word]
i like rants. thanks fer hearing!
mmmm Clairol.
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
member
33 posts
Location: Right behind you........
33 posts
Location: Right behind you........
Posted:
There seems to be a lot of talk of materialism here and the thoughts regarding the human race as a comsumer. What I am about to rant on about is basically ripped off from Maslow's Hierachy of needs, developed in the 1950's.
Maslow stated, and I believe having read and digested it all, that the needs of the human fall into 5 major catergories that can be catergorised and prioritised in order to gain satisfaction and fulfillment in life.
The first form the basis of human life and the last, the little perks that we are now becoming too accustomed to and failing to realise as privelages of our lives.
In this way, it can be seen as a pyramid with the first items listed below, forming the base, the widest and most fundamental of needs, and the last as the top of the pyramid, the lowest needs.
1. Physiolgical needs:
The need for food, water, shelter and warmth
2. Safety needs:
Security and the need for a stable environment, free from threats
3. Love needs:
Affectionnate relationships with others.
4. Esteem Needs:
Self-respect, self-esteem, and the esteem of others
5. Self actualisation needs:
The need for self-fullfillment in life, partly through material possession.
If this is examined, I bellieve that we as a species need to centre our lives more around the fundamentals of life that we are leaving behind.
I am incredibly materialistic at times, and have to take a time-out to re-centre my goals in life, and concentrate on the really important first 3/4 needs listed above, and move away from my materialistic ways.
Sorry if that was a bit long ..... Just had to put my bit in!
*Walks away wondering where all that came from*
(must be burried deep in the recesses of the mind)
There seems to be a lot of talk of materialism here and the thoughts regarding the human race as a comsumer. What I am about to rant on about is basically ripped off from Maslow's Hierachy of needs, developed in the 1950's.
Maslow stated, and I believe having read and digested it all, that the needs of the human fall into 5 major catergories that can be catergorised and prioritised in order to gain satisfaction and fulfillment in life.
The first form the basis of human life and the last, the little perks that we are now becoming too accustomed to and failing to realise as privelages of our lives.
In this way, it can be seen as a pyramid with the first items listed below, forming the base, the widest and most fundamental of needs, and the last as the top of the pyramid, the lowest needs.
1. Physiolgical needs:
The need for food, water, shelter and warmth
2. Safety needs:
Security and the need for a stable environment, free from threats
3. Love needs:
Affectionnate relationships with others.
4. Esteem Needs:
Self-respect, self-esteem, and the esteem of others
5. Self actualisation needs:
The need for self-fullfillment in life, partly through material possession.
If this is examined, I bellieve that we as a species need to centre our lives more around the fundamentals of life that we are leaving behind.
I am incredibly materialistic at times, and have to take a time-out to re-centre my goals in life, and concentrate on the really important first 3/4 needs listed above, and move away from my materialistic ways.
Sorry if that was a bit long ..... Just had to put my bit in!
*Walks away wondering where all that came from*
(must be burried deep in the recesses of the mind)
TrickySmile at a stranger!
member
4 posts
Location: San Diego, California
4 posts
Location: San Diego, California
Posted:
Yeah Kinudin, go and show our english teacher that story, she won't understand it at all.
------------>
Yeah Kinudin, go and show our english teacher that story, she won't understand it at all.
------------>
Mmm, burnt toast.
SILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
Your mind seems to be a beautiful place Bender.
Your mind seems to be a beautiful place Bender.
TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
bender...wicked.... what can i say? it's just a cool line of thought,at least what i understand of it...
*freedom from emotional turmoil would be cool... but even i know that someone who is too afraid to cry isn't gonna get there... no time soon neways...*
Tricky, good point. We do take all the "little stuff" for granted. Odd how that works. I cna actually look at different points in my life nad see why certain thinsg didn't bother me caus ei was lacking certain others... interesting. why exactly i can't remember half teh psych stuff i supposedly learned i don't know...
bender...wicked.... what can i say? it's just a cool line of thought,at least what i understand of it...
*freedom from emotional turmoil would be cool... but even i know that someone who is too afraid to cry isn't gonna get there... no time soon neways...*
Tricky, good point. We do take all the "little stuff" for granted. Odd how that works. I cna actually look at different points in my life nad see why certain thinsg didn't bother me caus ei was lacking certain others... interesting. why exactly i can't remember half teh psych stuff i supposedly learned i don't know...
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
the totally bewdiful people that teach me believe in karma balance that they teach us for free because they believe that for themselve to acquire more knowledge, they much first pass on what they know to others. Yes, as an office slave, we were taught HRM flavour Maslow - a nasty corporate-subjugated version with the focus on getting ahead, not growing as a person. No-one else at uni found it amusing :/ the problem, i am told, with contemporary psychologists is that their analysis is placed from the outside peering in; external analysis limits your understanding to only the effects of the psyche -> ya gotta be intimate with your causes to change them! if you spend time with spiritual psychology, they deal with the inner causes (the consciousness+those egos)
What blew me away is that this understanding of the mind also explains so very much of what i have seen in my life! it's explanations are consistent with angels, reincarnation, souls, astral travel, true love, psychedelic visions, and also the similar imagery amongst religions (eg. astral travel explain the beings with flaming swords in the 5th plane - most of western culture call them angels. Ancient cave artists and even Hunter S Tompson have undergone 'polyview' state and seen these beings!)
It is that part of my understanding that is incomplete now - i still need to grapple with lot of the more radical concepts (eg. 7 dimension model of the universe? I would be naive to take it simply at face value.) however the information is there, and it's almost frightening just how accurately that understanding dovetails with what crazy shit I have seen + felt. Again, it was after a meditation on that that i developed the staff story.
"I'll miss the sea... but a person needs new experiences... they jar something deep inside, allowing him to grow. Without change, something sleeps inside us... and seldom awakens... The sleeper must awaken."
- Leto Atreides
thanks for all your input guys! i totally luv it when i can walk away from an online forum that much wiser for it!
the totally bewdiful people that teach me believe in karma balance that they teach us for free because they believe that for themselve to acquire more knowledge, they much first pass on what they know to others. Yes, as an office slave, we were taught HRM flavour Maslow - a nasty corporate-subjugated version with the focus on getting ahead, not growing as a person. No-one else at uni found it amusing :/ the problem, i am told, with contemporary psychologists is that their analysis is placed from the outside peering in; external analysis limits your understanding to only the effects of the psyche -> ya gotta be intimate with your causes to change them! if you spend time with spiritual psychology, they deal with the inner causes (the consciousness+those egos)
What blew me away is that this understanding of the mind also explains so very much of what i have seen in my life! it's explanations are consistent with angels, reincarnation, souls, astral travel, true love, psychedelic visions, and also the similar imagery amongst religions (eg. astral travel explain the beings with flaming swords in the 5th plane - most of western culture call them angels. Ancient cave artists and even Hunter S Tompson have undergone 'polyview' state and seen these beings!)
It is that part of my understanding that is incomplete now - i still need to grapple with lot of the more radical concepts (eg. 7 dimension model of the universe? I would be naive to take it simply at face value.) however the information is there, and it's almost frightening just how accurately that understanding dovetails with what crazy shit I have seen + felt. Again, it was after a meditation on that that i developed the staff story.
"I'll miss the sea... but a person needs new experiences... they jar something deep inside, allowing him to grow. Without change, something sleeps inside us... and seldom awakens... The sleeper must awaken."
- Leto Atreides
thanks for all your input guys! i totally luv it when i can walk away from an online forum that much wiser for it!
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
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