Forums > Social Chat > modelling/spinning rates?

Posted: 18th May 2004
ive charged by the hour before, but also added on travel expense, and if im using fire, i added a fuel cost to.

If money is the root of all evil, then why do people sell Bibles?

Posted: 18th May 2004
How much did you charge?

R

Posted: 18th May 2004
Pele wrote something ages ago when I was asking about rates - something along the lines of:
You are charging for:
~ Your time spinning
~ Your time getting there
~ The time you've spent choreographing shows
~ General wear & tear on your equipment
~ Fire Fuel
~ Transport Fuel

Your time is valuable (well, mine is ) and often doing gigs/photo-shoots involves late night work - so you're working un-sociable hours.
Also - photo shoots aren't always fun if you get a really particular photographer.

Some people (myself included) are of the opinion that you should never really do "freebies" as it's effectively devaluing our art - No club promoter is going to pay a professional performer their due, if they can get a couple of hobby-spinners to do it for a couple of free beers...

Model Release form - basically sets out how they intend to use your photo and you then sign it Basically this means that if they say they want to use the pictures for their living room wall, then sell them to an advertising firm and make a packet out of it - you can sue them (Gosh, how american )
If they *are* using it for professional means, you are fully entitled to whack your fee up a bit as they'll be making a greater profit off of you.

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Posted: 19th May 2004
Thank you, although I think I say "basically" too much

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Posted: 19th May 2004
Raph I think you should charge whatever you're happy with. Cover your costs and add something to keep yourself happy. Don't worry what other people charge, what you're happy to accept/charge is what's most important. And I don't think it devalues the art at all by not charging, if that's what suits the performer.

Let's relight this forum

Posted: 19th May 2004
not charging depends on the situation i think.

i'm a folk musician and they can get really touchy if you refuse money if you're playing outside and people offer it to you - because then it might well stop them offering to someone who is busking.

getting money for something makes people appreciate it more in a way, because that's how a lot of people value things - by how much they pay.

it's great to do a favour for a friend, but if you alwayd spin for free then people are going to think that they never have to pay you and what you do isn't worht it. you have to remember that there are people out there who do rely on this for a living, and by not taking money you push down the fee that they can acceptably charge.

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

Posted: 19th May 2004
I won't do stuff for free anymore.

This is a good thread [Old link]

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

Posted: 19th May 2004
Undercutting and underbidding...Hell has a special place for people who do these.

One of my favorite topics...alrighty to the math!

Time travelled (by car..anything else is paid for by the hiring company). In the U.S. the federal standard for mileage is .34c/mile. Because I am investing my time I charge .50c/mile. If it is in a 30 mile radius, I do not charge. Do not forget to add in charge for bus/subway or expressway tolls.

Costume wear and tear. I figure out how many times I feel I can wear the costume and still have it look good. Divide the costume price by that. Be reasonable about it too!
For me it usually ends up as a couple bucks.

Tool wear and tear. Same deal. Keep in mind that tools last a *really* long time with proper care. If you don't take care of them, don't charge them for that. I have had the same poi chains and handles for 6 years now, and my wicks had lasted well over 200 burns before they need to be replaced. Total up the cost, divide the time. For me this usually ends up as cents per show.

Fuel. If you do not intend to use the whole 5 gallons, don't charge them for it. Again, be reasonable.

Insurance. I average how many shows I did last year and divide the cost of my insurance this year by that. That is what I charge for that. Usually about $5-$10.

Now...total all that up, and double it. That is your absolute BASE PAY!... and it is still low, let me tell you. But this garuntees that your costs and your time is paid for, and don't forget to pay your safety too.

Also, look at other performance artists in your area. How much do they charge? Magicians, jugglers, bellydancers who do bellygrams? That is a good thing to check into to see what the area pays, what the local standard is.

As for me...I make no less than $5/minute with a base of no less than $75, and that is for basic or non-fire stuff. Price goes up from there.
I never *ever* charge per burn because it is not worth it. It takes time and effort to get into costume, check the gear, get there, set up and do it all in reverse. When you charge per burn people tend to take advantage of that and go as cheaply as possible, which is a waste of my time doing all the stuff it takes to get there and set up.

For photo shoots I work things a bit differently. If I can also use the photo's unlimitedly for promo use, then the photographer gets a discount. If the photographer plans on selling the photo's for his profit, I get a *huge* payment upfront with the agreement that my name is on it...*or* a royalty-per sale agreement. Either way, s/he is making money off your image and you deserve to get paid for that.

The photographer I am working with now will be using the images for his promotion, not for sale. He wants to show people what he is capable of. In return I get free use of them and the negatives for my promotion. We are trading and it is working well (since I need an update desperately).

Either way, never sell yourself, or your performance peers short.
Kindest Regards,
Pele

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 19th May 2004
See - told you Pele would give a good answer

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Posted: 26th May 2004
In his last email to me, the photographer wrote:

"Photos are for my stock photo library. An unconditional model release
is required. You may use the images for anything you want- I will put
them online or burn a CD for you. Rate for a 2-3 hr shoot is $150 Euro."

Now, I am a little uncomfortable with an unconditional release being used for a data bank of images AND the rate seems pretty low for 3 hours of modelling.

Any thoughts, anyone??

Raph

Posted: 26th May 2004
Haggle! Or at least negotiate

If he won't budge on the fee - put expenses on top of it, travel, fuel, equipment maintanance

And "unconditional model release" seems a bit much (although is probably pretty standard) - however you are getting the photos yourself too so that is payments in sort

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Posted: 26th May 2004
The last person I knew who had an "unconditional use" clause in his contract found that three years later the photo's of him were sold to the National Enquirer for tonnes of cash that he never saw a spot of. I wouldn't sign that. I would negotiate that it have the condition they are not for resale, ever.

$150 for 2-3 hours? Not including travel fees? And he wants you to light up? How often? What else do you have to do. Find out exactly how much work you will need to put into it before you determine how much you want to get out of it.

I think it is pretty low. Especially if he were to hire himself out I bet he would charge at least $100 per hour.

Sounds to me like he is trying to be reasonable, in his own mind. Not that he is trying to screw you at all.
I agree negotiate. Tell him you will need your travel costs covered *in addition to the $150 for 2 hours* and that you will only agree to his release clause if that they will not ever be available for resale, without your express written permission at that time (in case he decides to put together some kind of an artbook with you in it, this opens the floor for another payment again) is included.

See if you can work with him for whatever you are not comfortable with.
Best of luck to you!
P~

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 27th May 2004
Thanks for all your advice, Pele!

I just emailed him back, so we'll see what he says next..

Raphael

Posted: 27th May 2004
this whole 'freebies' thing is a bit ambigous for a number of reasons.

firstly i spin at a lot of club nights because i enjoy spinning to the music they play. i often get free entry in return but not paid because a.) i''d be doing it anyway and b.) so do a lot of other people and c.) i don't think many club promoters give a toss about how 'good' anyone is. they see it as a free bonus.

i am however under negotiations to make it more official and get paid at certan nights. also when people ask me to do a gig for an event i wouldn't otherwise be attending i do expect to be pretty well paid for it. unfortunatly it seems that because there are so many people now spinning round here i think there's the potential a lot of market undercutting going on like durbs mentioned.... but to a certain extent that makes it a competative market and forces me to get better at more stuff to make me more employable which isn't entirely a bad thing.

this is turning into quite a hungover rant so i'm gonna stop now.... good luck!

It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett