Forums > Beginner Staff Moves > rotatorcuff / smoother figure 8s
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523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
Alright, this is something which may be a little bit anal for most people, but it's definitely helped me, especially with doubles, so here goes.
Something I've been trying to do is be able to spin staff patterns with the complete minimum of body movement. Don't get me wrong, I like to move about when I'm spinning, but if you can isolate a spin so that only your hand has to move, it gives you more freedom with the rest of your body.
So the exercise for this morning is to be able to hold your arm out horizontally, and spin a figure 8 with your arm completely still, except for the rotation necessary to not break your wrist. But before we do that, lets take a quick look at how your arm moves.
If you hold your arm out, and rotate your hand as if you were turning a door knob, most people think this rotation comes from the wrist. In fact, it comes from the two bones in your forearm twisting against each other. If you try and move it more (you'll need your arm to be straight out from the shoulder for this), another movement comes into play, which is your rotatorcuff muscle pulling you upper arm around. With some practise you can isolate these movements, and rotate your elbow while keeping your hand still, which looks quite freaky.
So, back to the staff. If you watch your elbow as you try and spin a figure 8 without moving your arm, you'll probably see a point in the rotation where it very quickly jumps from being rotated most of the way backwards to being rotated forwards. What's happened here is the staff in your wrist has forced your arm to rotate, and that has pushed the joint round. Now comes the whole point of this post, which is that now you've practiced and can isolate your rotatorcuff movement, you can anticipate this, and rotate your elbow before you need to. Doing this will:
make the movement more fluid
take a lot of strain off your wrist
if you do it *really* early, you can even give the staff a bit more momentum
If you also pracise a similar thing but keeping your arm straight down, you'll find that you can do at least one of the snake patterns without moving your arm at all...
Well, congratulations to anyone who's read all the way through this, and even more congrats to anyone who can now rotate their elbow independantly and freak people out.
Alright, this is something which may be a little bit anal for most people, but it's definitely helped me, especially with doubles, so here goes.
Something I've been trying to do is be able to spin staff patterns with the complete minimum of body movement. Don't get me wrong, I like to move about when I'm spinning, but if you can isolate a spin so that only your hand has to move, it gives you more freedom with the rest of your body.
So the exercise for this morning is to be able to hold your arm out horizontally, and spin a figure 8 with your arm completely still, except for the rotation necessary to not break your wrist. But before we do that, lets take a quick look at how your arm moves.
If you hold your arm out, and rotate your hand as if you were turning a door knob, most people think this rotation comes from the wrist. In fact, it comes from the two bones in your forearm twisting against each other. If you try and move it more (you'll need your arm to be straight out from the shoulder for this), another movement comes into play, which is your rotatorcuff muscle pulling you upper arm around. With some practise you can isolate these movements, and rotate your elbow while keeping your hand still, which looks quite freaky.
So, back to the staff. If you watch your elbow as you try and spin a figure 8 without moving your arm, you'll probably see a point in the rotation where it very quickly jumps from being rotated most of the way backwards to being rotated forwards. What's happened here is the staff in your wrist has forced your arm to rotate, and that has pushed the joint round. Now comes the whole point of this post, which is that now you've practiced and can isolate your rotatorcuff movement, you can anticipate this, and rotate your elbow before you need to. Doing this will:
make the movement more fluid
take a lot of strain off your wrist
if you do it *really* early, you can even give the staff a bit more momentum
If you also pracise a similar thing but keeping your arm straight down, you'll find that you can do at least one of the snake patterns without moving your arm at all...
Well, congratulations to anyone who's read all the way through this, and even more congrats to anyone who can now rotate their elbow independantly and freak people out.
monkeys ate my brain
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625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
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625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
Posted:
I havnt read up about club swinging yet, cause....well everyone always says u cant name a move after a different disiciplin, ie poi and staff have simila moves but none of them are the same name...
Anyway, i finally just shot it, im watching the fottage now trying to find the "double lock up" sequence
ill cut like a 20sec clip or something so if u want a copy pm me...i doubt it will be worth hosting.
Scuse my spelling, its like 0:400
I havnt read up about club swinging yet, cause....well everyone always says u cant name a move after a different disiciplin, ie poi and staff have simila moves but none of them are the same name...
Anyway, i finally just shot it, im watching the fottage now trying to find the "double lock up" sequence
ill cut like a 20sec clip or something so if u want a copy pm me...i doubt it will be worth hosting.Scuse my spelling, its like 0:400
180 posts
Location: Melbourne, Vic.
Location: Melbourne, Vic.
Posted:
I'll host it I'll host it =).
- Klay-host
I'll host it I'll host it =).
- Klay-host
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Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
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Posted:
Staff lock up clip as promised. Sry was rushed 4 time. Its only 1 variation of a single (reverse) direction, but u'll get the drift. Is this anything near a snake? And could you point me toward a snake video clip if thats possible? TY
https://dragon7.spymac.net/stafflockup.wmv
EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1089982644)
Staff lock up clip as promised. Sry was rushed 4 time. Its only 1 variation of a single (reverse) direction, but u'll get the drift. Is this anything near a snake? And could you point me toward a snake video clip if thats possible? TY
https://dragon7.spymac.net/stafflockup.wmv
EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1089982644)
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
i've been doing these for a while now. Just to add another name to the mix, i call them triplespins.
i certainly wouldn't call them snakes
(unless i was deliberately trying to irritate clubswingers, which can be fun...)
i've managed to get them all nailed except for the low reverse one (staff spinning backwards going from in front of you to behind). That particular one i have nicknamed "the utter bastard".
i have seen it done smoothly, but only by Glass, so that still doesn't prove it's possible...
The forwards ones (like in Dragons vid) are very possible with doubles, alternating so one is in front while the other is behind.
one interesting thing is i often find i've accidentally missed a beat with one of the sticks and they'll end up syncopated, so for one or two beats in the pattern both staffs are in front or behind me at the same time.
Mo-Seph: The first post on this thread is awesome dude
most insightful. But i accept no responsibility for eating your brain... 
i've been doing these for a while now. Just to add another name to the mix, i call them triplespins.
i certainly wouldn't call them snakes
(unless i was deliberately trying to irritate clubswingers, which can be fun...)
i've managed to get them all nailed except for the low reverse one (staff spinning backwards going from in front of you to behind). That particular one i have nicknamed "the utter bastard".
i have seen it done smoothly, but only by Glass, so that still doesn't prove it's possible...
The forwards ones (like in Dragons vid) are very possible with doubles, alternating so one is in front while the other is behind.
one interesting thing is i often find i've accidentally missed a beat with one of the sticks and they'll end up syncopated, so for one or two beats in the pattern both staffs are in front or behind me at the same time.
Mo-Seph: The first post on this thread is awesome dude
most insightful. But i accept no responsibility for eating your brain... "Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
180 posts
Location: Melbourne, Vic.
Location: Melbourne, Vic.
Posted:
yeah, I call them triple-spins too simian, have done for ages :P, thats what they are! 3beat=triple spin, pretty straight forward :P.
God I love triple-spins, I've spent so much time doing them and I spend ages just doing it over n over when I burn :P, must be pretty monotonous. I've mastard fwd and bkwd, so it works well for parallel doubles too.
Yeah it is cool when the staffs go out of sync for a bit then go back in sync, this happens for me when what you said happens, and also going from parallel opposite elbow centred fig 8's back to normal either-side-of body fig 8s, it's cool to line it back up again too. =)
m00
yeah, I call them triple-spins too simian, have done for ages :P, thats what they are! 3beat=triple spin, pretty straight forward :P.
God I love triple-spins, I've spent so much time doing them and I spend ages just doing it over n over when I burn :P, must be pretty monotonous. I've mastard fwd and bkwd, so it works well for parallel doubles too.
Yeah it is cool when the staffs go out of sync for a bit then go back in sync, this happens for me when what you said happens, and also going from parallel opposite elbow centred fig 8's back to normal either-side-of body fig 8s, it's cool to line it back up again too. =)
m00
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
not quite what i meant... in my terminology: 6 beat = triplespins
like in Dragons vid
not quite what i meant... in my terminology: 6 beat = triplespins
like in Dragons vid
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
180 posts
Location: Melbourne, Vic.
Location: Melbourne, Vic.
Posted:
oh okay. Damn :P.
oh okay. Damn :P.
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Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
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Posted:
Snakes anyone? huhuh???
Anyways that move is pretty sick, iv had my rotator cuff ripped out afew times (sholder ligament also) trying to push it faster and further than is possible. And its not such a nice feeling, specially when u have to miss out on playing because your sholder's need to heal up again.
Snakes anyone? huhuh???
Anyways that move is pretty sick, iv had my rotator cuff ripped out afew times (sholder ligament also) trying to push it faster and further than is possible. And its not such a nice feeling, specially when u have to miss out on playing because your sholder's need to heal up again.
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
rotator cuff workout
rotator cuff workout
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
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Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Hi dragon7, great clip for a move description. Thatās a nice move, but not what I would call a traditional club swinging snake. A triple spin seems like a good description.
With the shoulder snake all the action happens at shoulder level. Hold arms straight out to the side and note that elbows are held at shoulder level through the movement. The movement takes place from the elbow down (forearm) with the main work happens with the wrist. The tricky bit is in front when you bring the club around to the front of the shoulder for the first circle (fingers facing the head), then you turn the wrist so fingers face away from the head to get the second circle in front, and the club should return to behind the shoulder. You can use the second circle to take the club down to hip level and other snake moves.
Apparently there is a snake clip on the Grandini DVD of club swinging. But, why not take a peek at the snake illustrations in Jillingās book???
Good points Simian. Though Iām not sure that itās wise to irritate grumpy club swingers Just so you know, missing or adding a circle to go from alternating time to same time, is standard club stuff; and like you they probably found it by accident. The āutter bastardā sounds like a reverse perpendicular snake. The staff move I have āissuesā with is the reverse one where they try to get two circles behind the shoulder then twist the body a bit to get the staff in front. Dunno, doesnāt seem to flow naturally, as you seem to fight the body with that one.
Nice link on the rotator cuff Mr Arashi. You gotta love that circular weight training stuff. Apparently in the old days they pulled the clackers out of bells (dumb bells) so they could get more weight, compared to clubs, for circular training. And then dumb bells superseded clubs for weight training etcetc.
Hope that helps
Hi dragon7, great clip for a move description. Thatās a nice move, but not what I would call a traditional club swinging snake. A triple spin seems like a good description.
With the shoulder snake all the action happens at shoulder level. Hold arms straight out to the side and note that elbows are held at shoulder level through the movement. The movement takes place from the elbow down (forearm) with the main work happens with the wrist. The tricky bit is in front when you bring the club around to the front of the shoulder for the first circle (fingers facing the head), then you turn the wrist so fingers face away from the head to get the second circle in front, and the club should return to behind the shoulder. You can use the second circle to take the club down to hip level and other snake moves.
Apparently there is a snake clip on the Grandini DVD of club swinging. But, why not take a peek at the snake illustrations in Jillingās book???
Good points Simian. Though Iām not sure that itās wise to irritate grumpy club swingers
Just so you know, missing or adding a circle to go from alternating time to same time, is standard club stuff; and like you they probably found it by accident. The āutter bastardā sounds like a reverse perpendicular snake. The staff move I have āissuesā with is the reverse one where they try to get two circles behind the shoulder then twist the body a bit to get the staff in front. Dunno, doesnāt seem to flow naturally, as you seem to fight the body with that one. Nice link on the rotator cuff Mr Arashi. You gotta love that circular weight training stuff. Apparently in the old days they pulled the clackers out of bells (dumb bells) so they could get more weight, compared to clubs, for circular training. And then dumb bells superseded clubs for weight training etcetc.
Hope that helps
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Dragon7, hope you shoulder heals quickly. I had a bit of tennis elbow about a year ago. It took a while to heal and I had to cut back on practice. Think I got it from lifting fence posts for a friend.
An old adage form my motor bike days is: you have to slow down, to go fast
Dragon7, hope you shoulder heals quickly. I had a bit of tennis elbow about a year ago. It took a while to heal and I had to cut back on practice. Think I got it from lifting fence posts for a friend.
An old adage form my motor bike days is: you have to slow down, to go fast
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
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Posted:
My sholder is fine. That fottage was shot near 2 weeks ago.
The problem is not with strength, but old injuries, iv torn both my sholders out at seperate times and everynow and then i get in a bad position and push it to far and it just pops again. Usually when im playing way to hard and trying to show off
Jillingās book??? Couldnt find it...and iv never touched a club in my life.
"The utter bastard" is a perfect name...i also have trouble sorting that one out and with ankles, lets just say "they dont help" Stone i think Simian ment that hes doing that move in my clip but in reverse. Because its damn near impossible! 
My sholder is fine. That fottage was shot near 2 weeks ago.
The problem is not with strength, but old injuries, iv torn both my sholders out at seperate times and everynow and then i get in a bad position and push it to far and it just pops again. Usually when im playing way to hard and trying to show off
Jillingās book??? Couldnt find it...and iv never touched a club in my life.
"The utter bastard" is a perfect name...i also have trouble sorting that one out and with ankles, lets just say "they dont help"
Stone i think Simian ment that hes doing that move in my clip but in reverse. Because its damn near impossible! GOLD Member
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2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Ok, you may have never touched a club, but there are similarities that could be useful for the moves in the video.
One way of looking at it is that a staff is really two clubs joined together. Like if you held a staff in front of you, hands 30cm (12ā) apart, and removed the bit of staff in the middle (ie. between your hands) you would now have a club in each hand
I do a similar move to the triplespin. But I would probably do the bit following where you have the staff locked btb, and you twist your body to bring the staff around the front a bit differently. Like I do it in wall plane, and to bring the staff around to the front I would use a hip snake (Jillingās Lesson 15). sorry itās just too difficult to describe without pictures.
I still suggest having a peak at Jillingās book
Download a Free Copy
or
Cosmos Juggling
Follow the Club Swinging link.
Then Download a Free Copy. Actually each Chapter is an Acrobat file.
Then check out Lessons 13 to 16 on the snakes.
You can tie me up and torture me if you donāt find this stuff useful
Ok, you may have never touched a club, but there are similarities that could be useful for the moves in the video.
One way of looking at it is that a staff is really two clubs joined together. Like if you held a staff in front of you, hands 30cm (12ā) apart, and removed the bit of staff in the middle (ie. between your hands) you would now have a club in each hand
I do a similar move to the triplespin. But I would probably do the bit following where you have the staff locked btb, and you twist your body to bring the staff around the front a bit differently. Like I do it in wall plane, and to bring the staff around to the front I would use a hip snake (Jillingās Lesson 15). sorry itās just too difficult to describe without pictures.
I still suggest having a peak at Jillingās book
Download a Free Copy
or
Cosmos Juggling
Follow the Club Swinging link.
Then Download a Free Copy. Actually each Chapter is an Acrobat file.
Then check out Lessons 13 to 16 on the snakes.
You can tie me up and torture me if you donāt find this stuff useful
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
thats the one.
and i actually managed to tame it today, by thinking about it exactly like that.
i had to turn to the left (staff in right hand) earlier than i thought i would to get it smooth, and when it actually switches sides my hand is locked in my back and the turn of my body round to the right provides the turn of the staff. Thats all the twisty bit, and the untwisty bit is easy
it feels a lot like forwards btb with poi (but one handed) just like the one on your video feels like backwards btb.
like btb with poi, its not so much a matter of stretching your body but of timing and plane control.
doubles followtime triplespins would look pretty cool...
Written by: Dragon7
doing that move in my clip but in reverse
thats the one.
and i actually managed to tame it today, by thinking about it exactly like that.
i had to turn to the left (staff in right hand) earlier than i thought i would to get it smooth, and when it actually switches sides my hand is locked in my back and the turn of my body round to the right provides the turn of the staff. Thats all the twisty bit, and the untwisty bit is easy
it feels a lot like forwards btb with poi (but one handed) just like the one on your video feels like backwards btb.
like btb with poi, its not so much a matter of stretching your body but of timing and plane control.
doubles followtime triplespins would look pretty cool... "Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
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Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
It's all in the wrists.
Suggest instead of turning the body round, you can use your wrist to turn the staff (start by turning the shoulder).
Doubles are much harder.
It's all in the wrists.
Suggest instead of turning the body round, you can use your wrist to turn the staff (start by turning the shoulder).
Doubles are much harder.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
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Posted:
Actually, after looking at THIS I would say they are exactly the same....unless im reading the diagram wrong
Thanks for the link Stone, i finally found it
OMFG, im spending more time in here than the poi forum! WTH is happening to hop?!?
You guys wouldnt be trying to convert me to Clubs or somthing now would you 
EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1091093560)
Actually, after looking at THIS I would say they are exactly the same....unless im reading the diagram wrong
Thanks for the link Stone, i finally found it
OMFG, im spending more time in here than the poi forum! WTH is happening to hop?!?
You guys wouldnt be trying to convert me to Clubs or somthing now would you EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1091093560)
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
That's so cool , I was beginning to think I was overdoing it a bit.
You can also check out the [Old link]
in the Other Toys section of HOP.
That's so cool , I was beginning to think I was overdoing it a bit.
You can also check out the [Old link]
in the Other Toys section of HOP.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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