Forums > Social Chat > Of creativity, ego, sharing or dividing ...

Posted: 23rd Jul 2001
Cassandra--First of all, you don't need to apologize for your English--I'd probably think you were a native speaker if you didn't point out that you aren't.The move doesn't make the performance, the person does. We don't diminish our own performances by sharing moves, because different people do the same moves differently, and use them differently in the overall scheme of a performance.This has been a touchy issue on this forum, because some people have had moves stolen without being asked. I can understand how this would feel like a slap in the face. It hasn't happened to me: other people have cribbed moves from me, but it is at a group practice where that's part of the reason we practice together in the first place.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

Posted: 23rd Jul 2001
Cassandra, your question is very, very interesting...I spent a long time thinking about it and here's my opinion Sometimes, when I learn a new move or just invent one, I want it to be MINE. Of course, it's like having a baby. It's yours and yours only...maybe that's a little selfish, but I think all of us feel that way sometimes. But, on the other hand, its kinda impossible to keep your moves to yourself if you spin regularly with other people. Last Friday I finally figured out how to do the btb weave, and told a friend of mine. Her reaction was something like "OMG!!! You definitely ARE going to teach me how to do it!!" you know?Yes, I am going to teach her, but I spent 6 months wondering how to do it...and she will make no effort at all.I didnt learn fire swinging by myself. I took classes! (That's something inedit I guess). My teacher, Silvia, is a wonderful person, and wanted to share her art with others. And she's the best fire twirler I've ever seen. She was so generous to me, and, even if I feel jealous about my technique, I want to share it, because she taught me to be generous about it too.BUTthere's something I can't teach or share. And that is my personality. The way I twirl is unique. It's totally mine...and nobody can imitate that...everybody has their own way of moving and dancing! So, that's it: I dont feel that creativity diminishes or is lost when your share your new ideas with others. I think it grows stronger. Sure, people will modificate your idea and make new things of it...That friend of mine started club swinging on the same day I did. I think I am more interested on fire twirling than she is, but we are both good at it. And our styles are totally different. We've always spun together and that didn't make our techniques equal! She knows moves I don't know, and I know moves she doesn't know.A group performance is absolutely stunning! And an individual performance is also amazing. It depends on the feeling. If the people feel good about it and love what they're doing, it will be beautiful... Oh, maybe all these things I said make no sense at all, and are confusing, but...you know. I am a confused person!! Heheheee... peace, people, luv ya all.------------------"Lady bug lady bug, fly away home. Your house is on fire, and your children will burn! Ashes, ashes, all fall down!!

Lady bug lady bug, fly away home. Your house is on fire, and your children will burn! Ashes, ashes, all fall down!!

Posted: 23rd Jul 2001
Personally, I guess I would tell all the flash moves or combos or whatever i come across... you would still have the satisfaction of seeing other people being unable to actually pull them off! It's not like any of the easy ones aren't well and commonly documented...

x X x ß £ Å Ĉ К ß î я Ð x X x

Posted: 23rd Jul 2001
This is a difficult one to answer for me, but I'd like to (attempt) to share my feelings on it...Elke (my sister) and I had no one to learn from for the first 3 years or so of our twirling (we've been twirling for about 6 years now) and so (as any one else who has solely taught themselves would have experienced) the journey was a long (but *very* satisfying) one... We have always been more than happy to share our technique with others - we run workshops, teach friends, twirl in public all the time and are really delighted when others discover the beauty and joy that twirling can give...one thing we learnt in this process of teaching ourselves is that even though you will come up with comething entirely unique and by yourself (without the influence of anyone else) chances are half a dozen people(or half a million depending on the complexity of it) would have come up with it themsleves as well...(and may have already) so yes I guess whoever discovers a move of their own accord "owns" it for themselves (depending on your feelings of ownership) but has no exclusivity to doing it... (but I do have more to say on this one yet...)also, as artists we are constantly striving for new expressions in fire performance... new toys, new combinations, new choreographies and interactive work... and I believe the only limit to this is your creativity...(and as part of this, I agree that it isn't the technique that solely defines the move, it is the way that it is executed - the style, the flow, the emotion that is being transfered through it...)so, in theory... I shouldn't feel jealous or bothered at all when I see someone watching me twirl and then taking this and doing it themselves - most of the time it is fine actually (I wouldn't be running classes or selling a book full of staff technique if it bothered me that much...) ...but... when you and your partner have spent literally hours and hours on creating a two person choreography and then perform it hundreds of times in front of thousands of people and parts of it have become your "signature" move, and then you sit down to watch a fire show and see two other people (who have seen you do it dozens of times) do exactly the same sequence it is difficult not to be annoyed - (especially when they don't even do it all that well...!) ...but then I don't think I should - because it doesn't seem fair for me to be happy to share some things and not others... and how do you know if others have thought up the same special things as you anyway - or whether they are in fact copying?Unfortunately there is no way of effectively "copyrighting" your performances (I don't think - please correct me if I'm wrong) - twirling technique is one thing, but elements that make your performance really special, are another...(how do you define this though?) it is a shame but it makes you feel like you need to "protect" your best work and not perform it in certain situations...I've had other professionsals ask me not to sell double/triple wicked staff/poi or fire fingers (which I created without the influence of others, as many others have done) because they use them in their shows and they want others to have to discover them the "hard" way too...!?...and we've just produced a new promotional video of our fire work which I'd love to share, but this is the stuff we still use and want to keep to ourselves (at least for now)... and experience has shown us that if we show other twirlers chances are we will find it in half the fire shows that we see around the place...so what are the ethics? What makes the performance - is it the creation of the piece or its execution... If you have been to a workshop and learnt everything that way - how much of yourself do you put into your art before you feel confident to say this is me and my art - not something I have learned from someone else...eg I didn't think of the 5 beat weave or behind the back weave until I found this site...I didn't actually have someone teach me or even deliberate over instructions anywhere on the site, but I did go "wow" something new, I'm going to learn that... but I wouldn't just stand in front of an audience and just do it... walking on stilts in full costume with quadruple wicked poi and I feel I own my performance while I'm doing this particular outside-inspired technique...does any of that make sense? I guess all I'm trying to say is that on the whole sharing is wonderful - without it we wouldn't have nearly so much fun with other twirlers (well there just wouldn't be many other twirlers) but try and be an innovator and not an immitator - no one will care if you borrow technique as long as you do something of your own with it...just my thoughts...love and happy twirling to you all, Bec

Posted: 23rd Jul 2001
I like to share almost all moves, especially to new spinners, but a lot of my wraps I don't tell people about cause if they are going to learn them they have to watch me do them first. If they come up with the same wrap out of the same combo or do something sicker, more power to them, I know I'v learned some wraps and moves without seeing people do them. This guy Danny I'v spun with (whats up Danny) does a sick double wrap I'v never seen before and if I ever learn it I will give him all the credit. I like the people that think outside the box, and when you see a spinner like that I personally believe they have a right to be stingy with their moves. If I didn't want someone to copy a move of mine I wouldn't do it, but as long as they get insperation from watching me they can copy my every move and I wouldn't care. What I'm saying is, I'm not going to post a move to people on a message board, if they want to learn it, they can watch me. Eric(this is all personal oppinion, and these veiws are not shared by everyone on this board)

Its about talent, not make up or costumes.

Posted: 23rd Jul 2001
Bec--You might be interested to know that a few years ago, there was a little bit of a stir in the news about a few basketball players who had copyrighted certain signature moves. I don't know if these copyrights were ever challenged in court, and if so, if they held up, but it has at least been attempted. I'm no lawyer, but it strikes me as a misapplication of intellectual-property law.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
Hear hear cass - your input is so refreshing and warming to read.Performing is sharing. I think the idea of copyrighting particular sequences and moves is utterly ridiculous but gave me a good laugh. (Basketball and fire shows). We all have creative bones in our bodies and if we just used these consistently we would never have to worry about other ppl 'taking' moves and sequences 'off us'. It is all in the execution of the performance, not the moves themselves. Every fire dancer is special and has something to add. Each has a 'special' way of doing different moves and *each* one deserves to be recognised. Regardless for how long you have been doing it, regardless of whether you were self taught or had some advice. Why do humans need to 'own' things I do wonder, isn't enough to be yourself and express yourself as who you are?And a side note, whether you do it on your head, covered in pink and purple spotted latex, or merely as yourself, you are still providing a unique and (sometimes eh? ) spectacular fire experience for your audience. 'Cause its you that's doing it, and no one is quite like you.And if I saw someone else copying my exact movements (I have no idea how they would! Unless played in slow motion with a vid recorder maybe?) or show lines, I would approach them and explain that they need not feel so insecure with just being themselvesand acting accordingly.

The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
I guess its the difference between ppl that express who they are by how many things they have, and those that just express who they are. Josh

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
Hi beautifull people !I was surprised to receive a response on that and quite happy indeed. thank you !Adam, You say this was a touchy issue in the forum cause people have had moves stolen without being asked ? I fully understand what you mean and, as a human, I know this ugly tickeling feeling in my stomach, but What does it mean to steal a move ? Please don't get me wrong cause I don't consider myself being "above" this, but isn't it really pretentious and egotistic to think that I have invented something out of the blue. Don't you think things pre-exist to one human being discovering them ? I am still at the point where I am thrilled to see spinners(this will probably never stop though ...)and the good ones I only see in video, which leads me to a question : some people I watched o the "circle of light" video for example have inspired me so much and I have indeed told them in person, but what if some moves have really caught my attention and I want to learn them ??? Am I stealing ? This issue reminds me of martial arts . I practice quite a lot of aikido . If you consider martial arts, many masters have hidden their techniques for obvious war purpose until the turn of Meiji period or even until the end of WWII. Then things changed, at least officially and doors of dojos started opening and techniques started spreading around into new schools / new martial arts even (that is the birth of " do" instead of "Jutsu" as in Ju-do instead of ju-jutsu) ANYWAY ... I get carried away... But these martial arts in many ways started becoming performances also and there were / still are big issues about "original techniques and who invented them"...What is public no longer belongs to us, does it ? Yes..; you are all jumping on your seats and thinking in terms of "intellectual property"... And indeed there is a difference between "public" (some work including performing in public)and "falling into public domain" (is it the same in english ? I mean when you no longer own the property of your creation ...) But What I mean is that Picasso was copied one million times and it never diminished his talent, To be copied by others is a compliment : it means you are good enough to make them dream... It is true, Bec, that there is a lot to say about this feeling of ownership - which I am not completely deprived of,... i am only human ... , but I think there are things to work on and to improve which is why I am asking all these questions.But don't get me wrong, Bec, cause I really understand what you mean. I fully understand this idea of "I have sweated blod and tears for that and you just steal this technique/ this choregraphy ..." It happens in every art, but in some arts with larger audiences, copycats are more "obvious". Being the daughter of a musician myself, I have witnessed this feeling of working hard and then having things "stolen" from you.Takes a whole lot of whisdom to not be hurt I guess... and when it also involves some money you plan to live on and feed your family with, the feeling is even more bitter. But I still beleive that what makes you rich is all the way you have gone and what you have learnt along the way, not only the goal you have achieved. You can buy a cake in a store or decide to bake it yourself... either way it is still a cake, but to me it does not taste the same , and that is what matters (French people tend to talk a LOT about food ... plus I am really hungry and going on my lunch break NOW ) I am a bit naive but I like to beleive that it shows eventually if your are not true to yourself...But then again, there are two things : the non-spinners audience : usually thrilled, can't really tell a windmill from a butterfly, they just dream and flow with your dancing and they will see you and love it for all that your energy and for your "shine", what comes out of your soul... Then there is a more "professionnal audience" and that is another story : somehow you (I mean we...) feel a need to prove yourself to be unique and at the same time the fear to lose or have someone steal what we think make us unique. In some unconscious way I guess we wouldn't mind sharing if people gave us creadit as the person who taught them.Or do you think I am wrong ? I might explain why teaching to beginners is always just such a great pleasure and why people get a bit more touchy when teaching to allready more advanced spinners ?Splat ... I love your input about "being yourself" because it is very much what my heart tells me too and having confidence is definitely what spinning and twirling is teaching me. Plastik girl, Josh, I also know exactly what you mean!I am not at all in a bitter mood or anything, I know some of what I say may sound a bit "ugly" , just trying to be honest with myself and actually asking you, beautiful people , for your opinions to improve ... Today is my birthday and I just feel I want to move on and learn more about everything ...More thoughts, more questionsShine onCassandra

"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
Good thoughts, good questionsHappy Birthday Cassandra Last WE I was in one of the biggest outdoor rave in Europe at the festival des vieilles charrues... There were a lot of fire spinner, I learnt a lot speaking and spinning with them but the nicest twirler, the one who really enjoy to teach me was also the best spinner of the party Really good people enjoy teaching others their moves. Is it enough to say ??? It's not a matter of stealing but a matter of sharing good vibes with peoples. It's stupid to hide a combo or a move to someone because if this personn watch you carefully he will manage to learn it. So if you don't teach him the move yu will lost the pleasure to teach AND your move will be learnt anyway (it will just take a little more time).I think that people who doesn't want to share are those not good enough who fear to be overcome by their students... a very human and very egotistic feelin' Share-Share-Share It's the way I learnt It's the way I teach others... Performing is sharing you can't keep your moves for you only your style is unique...

o]-[DasK]-[o

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
Cass, good thread, all I can say is that I agree.Share - teach - learn - sharefor me it's all about the energy, the buzz. When you learn a new trick it's a massive buzz, and if you teach somone a new trick you buzz coz they're buzzin'.So y'all get poi-in' and buzzin':-)~~L8ersM

We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold.

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
Very interesting topic guys. I enjoy teaching my tricks to other people. I have to admit that there is a sense of pride in me when I watch one of my fellow spinners do a move I showed them. And it is a great feeling to share. Like many of you have said, the same move will still be performed differently by someone else so it will probably never be *exactly* the same. I would be quite annoyed if I went up to a spinner, compliment on a move and ask to learn it, and if he refused to teach it to me. I'd find that very pretentious and it would probably make me want to learn it even more, by watching real closely until I figure it out. This has NEVER happened to me so far, all the fire spinners I've met (maybe around 30-40) were all nice and pretty humble people, all willing to share their art. I haven't met any fire troupe yet and don't know if they get more competitive than that. I do understand the frustration of people like Bec when they see their work out in front of a lot of people. And that leads me to something else: you gotta give credit where it's due (I know that can be hard in Bec's case, where the other people performed in front of a large audience). At a fire meeting in NH, I saw Skichristian do a nice move with a turn between his legs. As soon as I asked, he explained me how to do it. Now I can do it no problem and integrate it in my spinning, but everytime someone comes up to me and says "hey, that thing you do under your legs is cool", i say "thanks, a guy i met once taught me that". My point is: I'm happy to teach my moves to anyone, but i'd be pissed if they appropriated those moves and pretended they came up with it. That would be really lame. (I'm not saying we should spin with a sign that says "moves A, D, and L are NOT MINE". But know your ethics).Does that make sense?Joseph

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
Ok here's my view on this and I have no clue why there should be any question on this type of thing. Only the ppl with big ego's go around claiming they came up with a move that is all thier's wake up ppl this shit has been going on for centuires. Also if I ever meet another fire spinner who's ego has taken over and they refuse to exchange moves with me they are gonna get a flaming poi upside the head or even better yet I'll get my "SUPER FLAMING EXPLODING HAMMER OF DOOM" then nail them with that! I'm not saying everyone is like this but I met a couple of chicks that were from texas and they wouldn't even talk to me they saw me as thier compatintion and I was only there for fun. I don't think I've ever been more pissed at someone other then them seeing as I heard an ad on the radio for fire dancing and dropped everything to go hang-out and learn from them!Every one of us should see ourselves as teachers, we have a very special gift that almost nobody has, Take pride in that gift and share it with others, the joy you will recive will be 10 fold that of having your own speical move. Besides that all of us also know how the movements work if we ever catch a glimpse of a move we don't know it's only a matter of time before we can duplatite it.------------------We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim Morrison

We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim MorrisonIt's going to come from a direction you didn't predict at a moment of chaos which you didn't see coming. -- NYC

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
Thanks everyone for really giving so much to this discussion, and Cassandra for opening it up in the first place... (by the way, Happy Birthday for yesterday! ...you always seem to give a "freshness" to the board, and a lovely energy... I can imagine that it would be lovely to watch you firedance...)The interesting thing is I agree with (just about) everything that has been put in this thread... that's what I find so hard about this particular "issue" (if it is one!)...I do completely believe that it is the person behind the twirling flames that is the special part - not the actual moves themselvesas Cassandra so eloquently said..."they can't really tell a windmill from a butterfly, they just dream and flow with your dancing and they will see you and love it for all that your energy and for your "shine", what comes out of your soul..." (yum!)and that is what I love about fire dancing and watching others doing it... true, it doesn't matter how many of the moves they struggled to discover themselves or how many they were shown by someone else - it *is* the way they take it on and make it part of their own psyche and then express it to an audience, or their friends, or a silent windswept beach...so, I agree with the many of you who said - share, share, share... and you lose nothing by giving out your art...also, I did think about the comparison to other arts - I am a musician as well, and there simply is no question when you are training at a conservatorium that you learn other people's technique and play other people's music... but what makes you special is the emotion that you can convey through that music (and my principle study was composition, so that says whatever that says anyway...)I guess the difference is the awareness of this - as Nomad was saying... it's a matter of ethics, and just giving credit (if appropriate) to you teachers or inspiration which would come naturally to almost everyone on this board anyway...so... all I'd like to add is that I *am* human too, and part of me being human is a a desire to express myself creativity - so I will never stop discovering new and beautiful ways to expand my firedance... *but* I am also human in that I feel emotions and can't help but feel certain ways when things that are special to me are blatently copied without any respect (which is a completely different from just learning moves/technique from others, which I think many of you are talking about)Because fire performance is not only my absolute passion, but also my living, I guess I sometimes let little things affect me more than if I just did it for fun... and I do know that if someone doesn't have the creativity or ability (or whatever it is) to develop their own unique interpretation of fire performance, then I shouldn't let it bother me - and as I said before, most of the time it doesn't... particularly in social twirling situations - I'm always showing people how to do things, and I don't hide anything... I just had a particular situation in mind when I posted my last message - and if many of you had been in the smae situation, I'm sure you would have felt that way too...anyway, la da de da da... nothing is really original/unique anyway - we're all influenced and inspired by what is around us all the time... I know that I don't own any move, choreography or anything... and I love sharing this beautiful, beautiful art with everyone...Big fire-twirly hugs to you all...love Bec

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
Totally agree guys, with the share share share thing... remember that "that's mine!" and "I want recog. (and money!) for that!" can only lead to Capitalism and badness.Not to start a new thread within the last one, but are you guys leftist sympathisers or what? (no fear people, i certainly am one...)I just like to know that I'm not mixing with the wrong crowd, y'know p_g

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
Happy birthday for yesterday Cassandra!!!My head is spiiiiiiiinnninnnngggggg...I read all the posts and I completely agree with everything that was said.Everybody feels a little jealous when imitated. Hell, we're humans!But sharing feels good. VERY good. Teaching someone is medicine for the soul. Feels SO good.Er...pixy goth, I'm no leftist, no rightist or whatever I just want everybody to be happy (If you knew what corruption has done to my country you would understand me )...heeeey not anarchist either!! hehehee ------------------"Lady bug lady bug, fly away home. Your house is on fire, and your children will burn! Ashes, ashes, all fall down!!

Lady bug lady bug, fly away home. Your house is on fire, and your children will burn! Ashes, ashes, all fall down!!

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 24th Jul 2001
Oh, and Happy Birthday Cass!!Shine On I hope you keep lighting up this board with your input Josh

Posted: 25th Jul 2001
hello beautiful people !It is really great to hear all your comments, I feel a lot richer !! Beautifull , beautiful birthday present, thank you !!! Off topic : dask : the vieilles charrues rave was all over the news here and looked damn impressive (especialy for someone like me who fears crowds a bit).they only showed a couple of spinners who did not seem that impressive to me, lucky you, really, to have met some inspiring Spinners !!!Nomad, I very much like what you say about Ethics and giving credit... it is exactly how I felt and what I also poorly attempted to express . Out of respect, for sure, but also (at least for me) because it just feels good to thank those who have given you a lot, be it with words or with your actions. Knagi, Sorry to hear about these stupid girls. I happen to be a girl myself (or so they say... ) and sometimes, I am sick of how bitchy they (we...) can be ... Definitely their loss anyway... you should feel sorry for them !!!Bec, thanks for the compliments, really really touched me, you would not imagine ! Plastik girl, your sentence "I want everybody to be happy" sounds so simple and yet means a lot to me. Simple, for sure, but not easy... Pixy goth, funny that you ask about politics. In France, politics is hard to beleive in because they are all pretty much the same. however, if being a leftist means to care for people, and not only those with loads of money, then .. mmm... OF COURSE cause everyone has a shine , that's my motto... But it is beyond simple left / right difference I guess... anyway, that is a bit off topic When I read what you all say here and in other threads as well, I really simply can't wait to meet you all, talk with you, and spin together. In all our differences and the common passion. Hopefully the end of the relay will be the good opportunity for us all to finally meet. You are all people of light and fire, inspiring and living proof that there is no use endulging myself into too much cynicism...Shine onCassandra[This message has been edited by cassandra (edited 25 July 2001).]

"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

Posted: 25th Jul 2001
People have alot to say about this topic! I like that! I am still thinking it over but what I do have to offer is this..yes, signature moves can be covered by intellectual performance copyright. Signature moves are defined as moves with a unique characteristic which makes it difficult for someone to copy. Adam, I don't think use of it in spinning applications is bad use, though the basket ball one, well, isn't it supposed to be about putting the ball in the hoop and not who can do what? Any way, my example is this...the figure skater Denise Bielman created this spinning move and has a copyright on it. No one else can do it in performance or competition without her written approval. This encourages people to create their own moves as well as giving a broader base for creative personal expression. It also applies to me. All my shows have a copyright, including moves I feel pertinent. Why? I work in a very nepotistic area of performing where it is nothing for someone to rip me off. I do many, many things that are fairly commonplace as far as fire performing is concerned but I also have trained, like Bec and Elke, alone and so have created somethings all my own. If someone who does what I do picked up my show (note: not just my moves) then I don't get paid as much because they can underbid me. From a professional stand point (which is how I see all these things) I think that an intellectual copyright is good. If I were a spinner who didn't attempt to make a career out of it, then I wouldn't bother. Sharing is good ecause it increases our repetoir but sometimes keeping a secret keeps people on their toes and encourages them to invent their own variations,and that's all most of these moves are anyways.My best to all.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...https://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 25th Jul 2001
i look at it like this..1st. I am not a performer. I do not make money by entertaining people with POI. Aperson that does entertain, is faced with competing for business. I would be weary of teching too many people my unique moves in fear of my routine becoming commonplace amungst other performers. If someone picked up a move of minewhile watching my routine, then that is different. That happening is unavoidable. It also pushes a performer to keep their routine fresh and new. Sort of like that Magician that gave away all the old boring secrets, in attempt to challenge the new crop to come up with new material.Myself on the other hand, i love to teach people moves that i know. Ill teach you anything i know. And i hope you do the same for me. I also go along with the majority in this thread, that its not the moves themselves that make them unique, but the style that you put into them. great thread Cassandra..your 3-0. keep up the good workPeace..Super'------------------"When a Man Lies He Murders Some Part of the World These Are the PaleDeaths Which Men Miscall Their Lives All this I Cannot Bear to Witness Any Longer Cannot the Kingdom of Salvation Take Me Home"

Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear--not absence of fear.


- Mark Twain

Posted: 26th Jul 2001
So, I walked away from this one and had a very lovely conversation with Whipping Boy about this. He is a fantastic sounding board, because he doesn't spin, so he has better outside perspectives to offer up.First I want to say I am lucky. The venues in which I perform have primarily had, for fire performing, eaters/breathers and torch swingers, fire jugglers. Most may have come across spinning but not integrated into a show. The type of performing I do is interactive theater. I bring the audience to the stage. My shows have a plot and a reason. I talk ****alot**** with my audience. I am a character in a costume. I am not there for the fire rush or for the ethereal feel. I am there to put on a show as best as my ability allows me to. I am there to create laughs in addition to oooh's and aaah's, if I can. Therefore this topic is very double bladed to me.As I said, I am fortunate because no one really performs in my chosen venues...it is very difficult and alot more than stepping out and swinging. From this very professional business stand point I see it this way...my show is mine. In the confines of the show what I say, do, how I move....it is mine. Now, I do butterfly's and every day torch eating but I also do things with much more flare and style. I am not saying that any one of those things can not be duplicated, I am saying that I worked long and hard on putting together three 20 minute non-stop fire shows including dialogue script and everything, and to see *that* taken would break my heart. To see one of you underbid me at a faire would break my heart. Thus, I have copyrights. I have covered my ass in a professional manner to protect my lifestyle and my income. It is in this respect that I will not share. Yup, you heard it, Pele the professional is a selfish bitch.HOWEVER....I can break down every single one of my moves into the most rudimentary movements and while I am a sucky teacher I have no problem trying to show someone one on one in a very non-emotion spin...so they can develop their own style or variation of it. In Vermont I explained some of my rolls and I have taught fire breathing (my specialty) to a few people. I know they are not going to come back at me professionally, which I also feel falls into the ethics thing. I agree whole-heartedly with Nomad about attributing credit where it is due, whether on a move or a toy design, when approached about it. I have done it a few times. There are times when something I have done is specifically attached to me (aka The Knee Thing) and I hesitate before I tell about it, but in the end I do. There's one side of the double blade....yes sharing is good except in a professional capacity when ethical lines are crossed.The other part of this double blade on teaching....yup, teaching promotes creativity. I totally agree with that. I also think that in some respects it also detracts from it. I have seen people who have learned from each other and people who have learned alone and it seemed that those who learned from a teacher or in a group (no offense here) shared a very similar style, whether they believed it or not. Some market it into doubles moves and others do group dyamic type things which work nicely. The ones who taught themselves isolated seemed to have the most interesting styles, approaches and moves in my opinion because they had no one to share with and so were forced to create. I sometimes feel that sharing too much stifles creativity instead of feeding it. So, yes share but take the time to be apart to create as well, or else the creative pool to draw from will become stagnant.The last thing I want to say about teaching is that I don't en mass, but more keep it to the personal side for these personal reasons: A) Teaching breeds the fad aspect in my eyes. While truly the fadders have no real impact, it is those people who go out say "look what I can do" without responsibility and then mar the art in the public eye for every other performer. The other current fad here is Belly Dancing and it is suffering from a flood in the market of sub standard performancer making those out to hire think twice about hiring a belly dancer. Humans in general tend to make unfair mental equations...so if we see several substandard performances of a specific genre then we tend to think that all available in the area are substandard, which is simply not always true. B) There are few people I feel comfortable teaching anything to, and so far in this respect they have been fire spinners as well, or were working their way up to fire. There is a respect for this art, and for the fire that I have seen lagging as more people jump on the fire band wagon. That frightens me. If someone sets something ablaze and then tells that I taught them, my professional reputation is on the line and I am back to square one with my performing. I can't take that chance. I love performing, and fire, entirely too much for that.This is where the pick and choose carefully who you teach factor comes in that Diana speaks of often. Teach a person well and they do badly anyway and it can reflect upon you. C) I feel responsible for people. I have enough stress and responsibility in my life to be responsible for someone learning fire. What if I explain something and it is misunderstood or misspoken? Then I feel bad when they get singed. No thanks, not for me.I have been present for several people's first burns. Several have used my poi. I felt very confident in their spinning ability. I served as safety. I didn't teach them from ground level and they took it very slow and easy. This was good for me. I have taught fellow spinners new moves. I have learned new moves. We have discussed techniques, costumes, tools, moves and appraoches. No one has "poached" (love that term) without my permission, and I haven't poached without the permission of others and that, my dear friends, is where I think it should be. Respect. Creativity. Passion. Style. Expression. It is what it is all about imho.Bright and Best to all------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...https://www.pyromorph.com

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 31st Jul 2001
Some thoughts from a dance background.All individual moves were obviously created by somebody for the first time at some time in the past, but now exist as part of the general repertoire of dance movements. If I had to credit every move individually I could no longer create a dance. For example in a tap dance I might use any combination of shuffles, time steps or turns that are not unique creations of my own. It is the particular order of the combination or the choreography that is my own. (Not that I haven't invented a few moves...). In the dance world, one should never copy an entire sequence of moves (choreography) without crediting the originator. (As Pele mentioned not wishing someone to coopt an entire routine.)But dancers are influenced by the performances, styles and moves of other dancers... it's impossible not to be. You can believe that seeing STOMP perform influenced my work!Imagine if the first dancers to develop ballet tried to keep their movements to themselves. There must be millions of little girls (and boys) taking ballet classes today, but how many ballerinas are there? My personal opinion is that art can only be enriched by sharing it with the entire collective of humanity. The processes of art (whether movements of dance, techniques of painting or drawing, musical instrument mastery and so forth) are a well that we draw on to continue the elevation of artisic expression and in the process a few may shine very brightly.*ack* Sorry, just realized that I've begun to ramble. I merely meant to point out that it seems it would be difficult to gain a copyright on a movement, because it would be difficult to prove that another person could not have also independently created the same movement. (Sorry, I'm not up on legal terms, and I know there is one for this concept). It would be rather like trying to copyright a word (trademarks and logos excepted) as opposed to a collection of words. A work containing many words in a particular order evoking a particular meaning is not likely to be randomly duplicated by another.So I can't refrain from rambling.Good day, I must be off...

Posted: 2nd Aug 2001
Sorry i have joined the discussion soooo late, but i thought i should thank Cassandra for starting this thread, so thank you!! (also belated Happy Birthday!!)It has been very interesting reading, and on the whole i agree with everything that has been said so i'll try not to repeat it.I just thought that an old (yet somewhat cheesy) expression would be very apt here: 'it is better to give than to receive'.Quality discussions!!Easy, TIM

The best way to predict the future is to invent it

Posted: 2nd Aug 2001
the way i feel about it is that no matter one, some people are going to excel more than others...besides, if you perform in public, and you have other fire people in the audience, nine times outta ten they'll figure it out on their own anyway.as well, i don't care if someone steals my 'combos' - most people end up working their own combos out after a while anyway and i've found that 10 people can do the same move and all look very, very different.and finally, i think people who don't share are just afraid they'll get surpassed... ;-)

For a charm of pow'rfull trouble.Like a hell-broth, boil and bubble.Double, double, toil and trouble,Fire burn and cauldron bubble. - bill s...

Posted: 2nd Aug 2001
Cool thread. I'm glad to see people who are so down to earth. I've been on several on-line forums and this is probably the friendliest I've ever seen. It makes me want to learn more, want to meet people (so who'll be at burning man? )Personally, though it's pr'ly in part 'cause I've only been at this since about May- I feel like I'll always be learning and always be humbled seeing others dance.bec- yay, another composer!!