Forums > Social Chat > help I can't ratoinalize cause and effect in a universe governed by chaos
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54 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
54 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
help I'm going slowly Mad
My head could explode any day now
help I'm going slowly Mad
My head could explode any day now
An innocent child will usually have the most evil intentions
SILVER Member
artisan
1,576 posts
Location: Berkshire, UK
artisan
1,576 posts
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posted:
I'm not much help then....
I'm not much help then....
DIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
Its effect and cause, time as you see it, is non- linear
There is no spoon.
Its effect and cause, time as you see it, is non- linear
There is no spoon.
member
299 posts
299 posts
Posted:
best not to think about it..
best not to think about it..
Why?
SILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
and when did you start believing that the world was rational?
t'isn't pet.
and when did you start believing that the world was rational?
t'isn't pet.
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
SILVER Member
member
130 posts
Location: United Kingdom
member
130 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
since experience [i.e.Rhine's experimental work] has shown that under certain conditions space and time can be reduced almost to zero, causality disappears along with them, because causality is bound up with the existance of space and time and physical changes, and consists essentially in the succession of cause and effect. For this reason synchronistic phenomena cannot in principle be associated with any conceptions of causality. Hense the interconnection of meaningfully coincident factors must necessarily be thought of as acausal.
So you don't need to rationalize cause and effect in all instances, synchronicity covers the rest.
Don't blame me if your more confused, blame Jung (1952)
Check out https://pup.princeton.edu/titles/6368.html
for some light reading
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since experience [i.e.Rhine's experimental work] has shown that under certain conditions space and time can be reduced almost to zero, causality disappears along with them, because causality is bound up with the existance of space and time and physical changes, and consists essentially in the succession of cause and effect. For this reason synchronistic phenomena cannot in principle be associated with any conceptions of causality. Hense the interconnection of meaningfully coincident factors must necessarily be thought of as acausal.
So you don't need to rationalize cause and effect in all instances, synchronicity covers the rest.
Don't blame me if your more confused, blame Jung (1952)
Check out https://pup.princeton.edu/titles/6368.html
for some light reading
Non-Https Image Link
- Alienfox -
member
54 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
54 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
THank you Alien fox I started 2 get somwhere close 2 that but got lost in my own tracks somwhere along the way I was on the verge of having an appifiny when I distracted myself it's quite annoying still think I'm gonna explode ma head one day thinkin aboot these things though only question I got now is
If Causality n Synchronicity take care of it all does that mean chaos is already 2 some extent predestined ?
THank you Alien fox I started 2 get somwhere close 2 that but got lost in my own tracks somwhere along the way I was on the verge of having an appifiny when I distracted myself it's quite annoying still think I'm gonna explode ma head one day thinkin aboot these things though only question I got now is
If Causality n Synchronicity take care of it all does that mean chaos is already 2 some extent predestined ?
An innocent child will usually have the most evil intentions
member
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
279 posts
Location: Bath, UK
Posted:
Rationalize cause and effect in a chaotic universe...
'Cause' and 'Effect' are false and unhelpful concepts that grew out of a limited, 4 dimensional view of the world. They do not take into account greater levels of human or universal consciousness.
Rationalize cause and effect in a chaotic universe...
'Cause' and 'Effect' are false and unhelpful concepts that grew out of a limited, 4 dimensional view of the world. They do not take into account greater levels of human or universal consciousness.
Magnus... pay it forward
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
I've always looked at it like this.. in order for there to be cause and effect, you have to create it yourself.. We've come up with this illusion of time to help ourselves put order into the world.. We use time to say that there is a then and a now and that this somehow effects the future.. Chaos jsut brings forth that nomatter what HAS happened, it will never dictate what WILL happen.. Everyday I go outside, stick my key in my car, turn it, and bam my car starts... that's cause and effect... Chaos simply means that oneday I will go out there stick my key in and my car won't start... cause and effect relies on past and present.. basically it goes <----- that way... and Chaos is a feed forward principle that refers to the future... and goes -----> that way... The common error is to try and make them apply both ways... because then happened, then this must follow.. I would like to quote part of the matrix when nirobi harps on ghost for always checking his guns when they enter the matrix... "It's a program it loads the same every time.." to which ghost replies, "Just because the past happened doesn't mean that it implies anything about what is to come.. I can drop a stone over and over... Each time it falls, but what if one time it floats back up... The point is, you can never be too cautious.. "
On a side note, Cause and effect works on a probability matrix.. example, gravity is somewhere between 9.6 and 10 m/s2... depending on where you are in the world.. but we always calculate it as 9.81, which is the experimental average... cause and effect dictates it to be 9.81.. chaos makes it a little different each time.. people often think that these probability windows are small and still can be accoutned for.. but think about how long things have been domino-ing in these probabilities.. the window over time would become so huge that almost any possibility would fall within it's realm... but that's a-whole-nother mindf___..
Sorry if I confused the issue more then helped any... I'm like 780/800 math/sci person but only like a 400/800 verbal person... well not that bad.. but close..
I've always looked at it like this.. in order for there to be cause and effect, you have to create it yourself.. We've come up with this illusion of time to help ourselves put order into the world.. We use time to say that there is a then and a now and that this somehow effects the future.. Chaos jsut brings forth that nomatter what HAS happened, it will never dictate what WILL happen.. Everyday I go outside, stick my key in my car, turn it, and bam my car starts... that's cause and effect... Chaos simply means that oneday I will go out there stick my key in and my car won't start... cause and effect relies on past and present.. basically it goes <----- that way... and Chaos is a feed forward principle that refers to the future... and goes -----> that way... The common error is to try and make them apply both ways... because then happened, then this must follow.. I would like to quote part of the matrix when nirobi harps on ghost for always checking his guns when they enter the matrix... "It's a program it loads the same every time.." to which ghost replies, "Just because the past happened doesn't mean that it implies anything about what is to come.. I can drop a stone over and over... Each time it falls, but what if one time it floats back up... The point is, you can never be too cautious.. "
On a side note, Cause and effect works on a probability matrix.. example, gravity is somewhere between 9.6 and 10 m/s2... depending on where you are in the world.. but we always calculate it as 9.81, which is the experimental average... cause and effect dictates it to be 9.81.. chaos makes it a little different each time.. people often think that these probability windows are small and still can be accoutned for.. but think about how long things have been domino-ing in these probabilities.. the window over time would become so huge that almost any possibility would fall within it's realm... but that's a-whole-nother mindf___..
Sorry if I confused the issue more then helped any... I'm like 780/800 math/sci person but only like a 400/800 verbal person... well not that bad.. but close..
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom
Posted:
just watch all teh back to teh futur series and youll under stand....
if not pick up and pen, put it down, and then you have started to be able to see causality, to wright with teh pen, you will need to pick it up, so you have created a small future for your self,
step
ps if that makes no sence, then ill be quite happy to show you in real time
just watch all teh back to teh futur series and youll under stand....
if not pick up and pen, put it down, and then you have started to be able to see causality, to wright with teh pen, you will need to pick it up, so you have created a small future for your self,
step
ps if that makes no sence, then ill be quite happy to show you in real time
Step (el-nombrie)
member
54 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
54 posts
Location: Sheffield, England
Posted:
taking this back 2 any spinnin or juggling form when you begin 2 control it the relative movment slows down in relation 2 the world and u're concionce there for you are begining 2 create
order from chaos for a breif moment before order once more creates chaos
random event happening in a causal framework
but at the aformentioned moment it can appear when spinning that the causal framework breaks down
no restrictions complete control and balance in everything just for a blink of an eye
I don't think it's the phisics more the
Meta-physics
this is what I am having trouble with
taking this back 2 any spinnin or juggling form when you begin 2 control it the relative movment slows down in relation 2 the world and u're concionce there for you are begining 2 create
order from chaos for a breif moment before order once more creates chaos
random event happening in a causal framework
but at the aformentioned moment it can appear when spinning that the causal framework breaks down
no restrictions complete control and balance in everything just for a blink of an eye
I don't think it's the phisics more the
Meta-physics
this is what I am having trouble with
An innocent child will usually have the most evil intentions
member
84 posts
Location: Nottingham, England, UK
84 posts
Location: Nottingham, England, UK
Posted:
OK, everyone's getting deep with this:
Life is the cause, and the effect is chaos...
xxx
OK, everyone's getting deep with this:
Life is the cause, and the effect is chaos...
xxx
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*Meet me in outer space... I will hold you close if you're afraid of heights...xXxXx
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom
Posted:
even the most experiecncdspinners, can still be toys of chaos and screw up a spin, therefore chaos and order are one in teh same, to rty to enforce one into teh frame work of another is a bad idea, asphilosopy is created for this reason
even the most experiecncdspinners, can still be toys of chaos and screw up a spin, therefore chaos and order are one in teh same, to rty to enforce one into teh frame work of another is a bad idea, asphilosopy is created for this reason
Step (el-nombrie)
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
"Hey hey hey!" (Charles the Energiser Safety Bunny jumps onto the soapbox!
That's right Mechhead! Which is why we shoudl always have safetys, fire extinguishers and fire blankets.
No matter how GOOD we think we are...
And, now, back to the crazy, educated rambling...
"Hey hey hey!" (Charles the Energiser Safety Bunny jumps onto the soapbox!
That's right Mechhead! Which is why we shoudl always have safetys, fire extinguishers and fire blankets.
No matter how GOOD we think we are...
And, now, back to the crazy, educated rambling...
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BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
perhaps I missed some things.. order and chaos are not the same.. Chaos is what is.... order is what we percieve... our minds put order to the chaos so that we may get along better... take language for example.. often peoople think that language -describes- the world... it doesn't.. it just puts a label.. what is a human body? very few look alike, but yet we all use the same label -human body-.. human body is made of cells... which are made of elements.. which are made of atoms.. these are all more techinical labels none of it explains anything..
these labels allow use to function productively.. so we use them... same thing with order.. we only percieve it because we can act more productively in a world we believe ordered then one that is chaotic.. If you still don't see it, then let me try this example.. Take a schoziophrenic.. He hears voices and sees people.. these people are just as real to him as anyone else.. but because -we- don't see them.. we force him (through meds and the like) to change his perceptions so that they do not appear to him either.. we are training his mind to recognize a certain -order- that we call -normal-... Order is only there if you look for it.. chaos is there whether you look or not.. whether you speculate at a future or not, the future will happen.. when you analyze what -has- happened.. then retrospectively you can create an idea as to why it happened, and thus give it order.. its a matter of looking forward or looking back...
People make mistakes.. these mistakes are the hand of chaos.. think about math.. no matter how perfect you are at math, you still make mistakes.. take nasa for example.. so even in an -ordered- environment, chaos still shines through as being the only absolute...
bah.. here I go rambling again.. pewrhaps this shouldn't be the first place I go when I wake up in the morning..
perhaps I missed some things.. order and chaos are not the same.. Chaos is what is.... order is what we percieve... our minds put order to the chaos so that we may get along better... take language for example.. often peoople think that language -describes- the world... it doesn't.. it just puts a label.. what is a human body? very few look alike, but yet we all use the same label -human body-.. human body is made of cells... which are made of elements.. which are made of atoms.. these are all more techinical labels none of it explains anything..
these labels allow use to function productively.. so we use them... same thing with order.. we only percieve it because we can act more productively in a world we believe ordered then one that is chaotic.. If you still don't see it, then let me try this example.. Take a schoziophrenic.. He hears voices and sees people.. these people are just as real to him as anyone else.. but because -we- don't see them.. we force him (through meds and the like) to change his perceptions so that they do not appear to him either.. we are training his mind to recognize a certain -order- that we call -normal-... Order is only there if you look for it.. chaos is there whether you look or not.. whether you speculate at a future or not, the future will happen.. when you analyze what -has- happened.. then retrospectively you can create an idea as to why it happened, and thus give it order.. its a matter of looking forward or looking back...
People make mistakes.. these mistakes are the hand of chaos.. think about math.. no matter how perfect you are at math, you still make mistakes.. take nasa for example.. so even in an -ordered- environment, chaos still shines through as being the only absolute...
bah.. here I go rambling again.. pewrhaps this shouldn't be the first place I go when I wake up in the morning..
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
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