Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > another "where to go next" thread

Posted: 15th Jun 2008
reverse 3 beat weave, underhand butterfly (if you learned over). high turn, link them, stalls into butterfly, link them, thread neadle under and overhand, crosses, flowers, behind the back, then harder stuff -waist wraps, hybrids, contact, throws, high beat stuff...

isolations will help stalls and other stuff
wraps i dont really do much of but i like spirals

This is the way i more or less went i think. mix it up if you cant do something and it will (or did with me) work after a few days of doing something else.

move around more, something i have never really done and trying to do now

Posted: 16th Jun 2008
Isolations are something you just have to constantly be practicing; the earlier you start practicing the better, but I've been doing poi for four months or so and I still can't keep a buzzsaw isolation going. But like Geeza said, learn everything you know now in reverse and practice transitioning between them. Just being able to do a 3-beat and go from forward to reverse will help you flow immensely.

What helps me is scouring the Interweb for "inspirational" type spinning videos, or just videos of people who are really really good, and just watching them move. You get a sense of what makes them so good and then you can try to emulate it.

Bouncing Baby Pipe!

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
Just because I'm lazy, I'm going to copy and paste my lesson-plan for my youtube tutorials. I haven't made all of these yet, but I'm getting through them, I've hit a bit of a wall with exams, but there's still plenty to keep you occupied. In my opinion, here's what I think benefits twirlers most in order. Of course this isn't concrete, you can play around with the order, but in my opinion, this will enable you best understanding and freedom of movement early.

Personally, I don't recommend learning isolations yet, it'll be much harder without having a solid "feel" for the poi, and time spent trying to learn them will be far better spent trying to learn other things that you will be able to pick up far faster and will build your mental library of movements.

Level 1 - Beginners:

1. Basic spinning
2. Crosses
3. 2 beat weave
4. 3 beat weave
5. 3 beat weave turning
6. Low, same direction reels (watermill)
7. High, same direction reels (windmill)
8. Same direction reel transitions and combos
9. Basic Butterfly spinning
10. Butterfly low reels
11. Butterfly high reels
12. Direction changing (basic stalls)
13. Direction changing (basic wraps)

Level 2 – Beginners – Intermediate:

14. The Butterfly
15. Basic Butterfly variations
16. Basic Weave and Long arm variations
17. 2 Beat corkskrew and variations
18. Shortening your poi
19. Waistwraps introduction
20. Basic 2 Handed Spiral

Level 3 – Intermediate

21. Thread the Needle
22. Crossers
23. Same-direction Buzzsaw fountain and variations.
24. Longarm spinning and reels
25. Thread the Needle transitions and variations
26. Under the Legs (basics)
27. Regular Flowers
28. 4 beat corkskrew
29. 4 beat windmill
30. Wrist Through-wraps
31. Intermediate wrap combos
32. Intermediate stalls
33. Airwraps
34. Behind the Back 2 beat weave
35. 4 and 5 beat weaves.
36. Pendulums (not 1.5s)

Level 4 – Intermediate – Advanced

37. 360 Reels turns
38. 360 Longarm turns
39. 360 Crosser turns
40. Butterfly Flowers
41. One-handed spiral
42. Waistwraps (meltdowns)
43. Isolations Introduction
44. Elbow through-wraps
45. Vertical stalls
46. Inversions
47. Hyper-loops
48. Behind the back 3 beat weave

Level 5 – Advanced

49. Anti-spin flowers
50. Anti-spin weave
51. Behind the back 3 beat variations
52. Behind the back 5 beat weave
53. Advanced Spiral variations
54. Advanced wrap combos
55. Neck through-wraps
56. Horizontal Stalls
57. Isolated Buzzsaw

Level 6 – Really Advanced?

58. Isolated 3 beat weave
59. Hybrids
60. Behind the back crosser
61. Over the arm crosser
62. Behind the head moves

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
Oh yeah, and if anybody wants to let me know what they think of this list, if anything should be changed or is missing, please just tell me, like I said, it's not in concrete.

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
For what it is worth, I have been spinning for two years now (give or take a month) and can still not isolate my left hand properly.

Best advice is learn everything backwards. And just play with getting from one to another.

Nathaniel: Nice list. I notice that you do not have throws/releases on it. Only notice it because I have been doing a lot of them recently. Can not say to much about order and so on though.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
Thank you! Now that you've said that I've remembered other related things too. I can't believe I forgot throws and releases, along with contact, wibbling, snags and such. Cheers, more things to add to the list.

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
42. i thought waistwraps are different to meltdowns

think you may have missed off a few things

hyperloops / orbitals
under the legs
jumps
straight jackets
polytiming
shots

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
Geeza a good list to start with, ive been working on linking what i know together. im going to start working on movement while spinning and the reverse 3 beat.

as for the isolations, im getting mixed reviews here so ill keep working on them, but as a background move. I figure they will help with allot of different things later, and judging from how hard they are (could be from the ammount of skill) to learn might as well work on them a bit everyday.

NathanielEverist I checked out the first couple lessons, I like the styule your using and look forward to learning from the videos. as for the order ill have to take your word for it :P


also ive just ordered myself a set of LED poi with nylon cords, some colecord and the art of poi/COL dvd so ive got allot stuff to work from, if i come across any problems allot the way ill add them here. again thanks for all the help

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
also by going reverse do you mean in the opposite direction (right to left instead of left to right) or opposite hand movements (starting going under instead of going over)

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
Didnt think of hand movements. I used to start my 3bt weave off going right hand over left, but now do right hand under too. (i dont think about it now as i can do either or (and just had to do a 3bt weave as i wrote this!))

Reverse i mean poi spinning backwards instead of going forwards (forwards away from you, backwards in to you)

If that makes sense

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
i start off right over left, im working on starting left over right for the moment, then il start the under with both hands. i think i get what you mean about the forwards/backwards i think (just had to weave to figure it out :P)

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
Yeah, waistwraps are different from meltdowns, but I intend on teaching them both at the same time, because it's fairly simple once you get good waistwraps. It's just a matter of crossing the non-waistwrapped hand in front of the body.

I included under the leg stuff, and hyperloops, but straight jackets, polytiming and shots are definitely worth adding in there. Thanks.

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
I've nothing to add to the list - it's just on 3 weeks since I started spinning. I just wanted to say here that I discovered your YT vids a couple of days ago and have found them very helpful.

I'm still playing down the beginner end mind you.

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
I'm glad to hear they helped. And don't worry, we were all beginners once, so long as you're enjoying yourself, that's all that matters.

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
nathan, im tyring out the reverse from your videos and i cant seem to get the arms crossed over part working, anytips?

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
What reverse? The reverse cross or the reverse 2 bt weave?

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
reverse 3 beat, (3 beat part 2)

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
Ah ok, what part are you having troubles with specifically? The arm's crossed over part? It's hard to tell where you're going wrong from words alone, but my advice would be to practice your reverse crosses until they're clean and your reverse 2 beat weaves with each hand on top, until they're really clean. If you're hitting yourself when you're doing it, it's most likely a problem with your planes.

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
specifically im finding it hard (starting with right arm on top) with riasing my right up and bringing it back under, eveytime i try to bring it under my left poi keps hitting my arm

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
Check your planes, since you're probably not keeping it straight if it keeps hitting your arm. I found doing the hand motions for a while without the poi extremely helpful.

Lift your glasses high, me friends, and join us in our song
We will toast to all we know, so sing, yes, sing along
We will drink to those we miss and those we don’t as well
For toasting here is the excuse for us to drink like hell!

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
ill give that a shot tomorrow during my lunch break (lol yes i poi at work)

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
I'm assuming the left hand poi is hitting your right arm when you do this? If this is the case, your split-time is probably a fair bit off, as your left poi should be at the trough of it's cycle while your right arm goes up, over and under the left. Another suggestion, is doing it slowly, and watching where you're hitting your arm and how. Is the arm too far across? Is the timing wrong? Are your planes poor? Ask yourself questions like this to identify the point at which you're going wrong. If you're still having trouble, I recommend you make a video and show us, it'll make it easier for us to give you advice.

Posted: 18th Jun 2008
If you can do a forward 3 beat and high/low turns, just try turning from forward to backward weave, it just might fall into place with the muscle memory doing most of the work.

Thats how it worked for me, and I couldn't even do high/low turns. I never thought I could do them til long,long after.

Turns... once you've got turns, try FOOTWORK. Mine is awful, too much spaced out spinning, I look like a stumbling maniac if I'm tired/inebriated.

Posted: 20th Jun 2008
Have to say I love your tutorials Nate. I've learned a lot from them, you show a lot of angles and sides to each move as well as variations we can do once we've mastered it. And thanks again for the reels hands vid, it really has helped a ton. Totally full of awesome!!

Posted: 22nd Jun 2008
Yeah they are good tuts, well from what ive seen... Oh you need a section on Orbitals different to hyperloops as learning them woiuld be pretty difficult at the same time. I taught myself them through doing thru wraps left to right, than hyperloops, than playing with the pull to get orbitals. And orbital variations, like horizontal nd all that stuff. I should put a vid up soon...

Posted: 22nd Jun 2008
Yeah, you're right I probably should. See, for me, orbitals is just kinda like: Hyperlooop, then pull, but I understand it's not that simple. Thanks for the compliments, they're kinda rag-tag, but I try to make them understandable and cover everything. I wish I could cover an angle from above, because that would be useful with some moves, but I do them by myself, with my camera sitting on a chair, so there's nobody to film me from above. Nick Woolsey's tutorials are far far higher quality than mine, I just kinda try and fill in the gaps. Once I'm on holidays, you can bet to see heaps of tutorials coming out...

Posted: 23rd Jun 2008
A different approach to learning reverse 3-beat weave: If you can already do forwards 3-beat, this should help translate pretty quickly.

Go find yourself a staff!! (broom handle dowel or any old stick really). You can think of a staff as 2 rigid poi attached at the handles, and ready to spin in split-time chase! To make sure you get a proper hand hold, start with it in front of you. Holding the stick with both hands, palm up, one on each side of the mid point by a few hand widths. (If you hold your poi so that they hang from your knuckles you could try holding the staff between your index and middle fingers, palms facing each other).

With a staff, you can't get your split-time wrong, you can't have each end out of plane with each other, it won't tangle, and you can go as slow as you want! Try doing the 3-beat forward weave with the staff. Slow it way down and do it in slow-motion... then stop and play it in rewind, reversing the direction... you will be doing a reverse 3-beat weave. For more verbose instructions read on:



You need to get your staff aligned with the proper plane. Imagine you are standing in a hallway... or if you have a hallway you can spin in, go stand in it! Stand looking down the hallway, so that you have a wall to your left and one to your right. Those are your planes! Your staff (poi training wheels) is probably perpendicular to the length of the hallway. Turn your torso to the right, so that your upper body faces the right wall. Now your staff is aligned with that plane and you are ready to begin.

Start by spinning the staff forward down the hall. Since you are facing the right wall, you will twist your arms counter-clockwise, right hand over left. As your right hand swings forward and down, cross it OVER to the left side, turning your torso so you end up facing the left wall. You will now be twisting clockwise, left hand over right. Cross the left hand over and you will be right back where we started. Chances are you recognize this as a 3-beat weave.

2 important symmetries to notice about spinning: If you video record a weave and play it in reverse you will see a reverse weave. If you record a weave with your camera upside-down, when you watch the video upside-up, you will see a reverse weave. (and someone standing upside down ;-P)

So back to the staff weaving: As you slow down your forward weave and start to spin it in reverse, think about rewinding what you were doing and/or think about flipping what you were doing upside-down. You will now be twisting clockwise left over right hand, when facing the right wall. Your right hand will cross UNDER to the left side. Now left wall is counter-clockwise, right hand over left, left hand crosses UNDER back to where you started.


Ok, hope that gives people the tools to learn weaves more quickly, and start to understand the spatial relationships between prop and spinner!

-Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

Posted: 23rd Jun 2008
Nathan: You forgot cateyes :P

I personally will never be completely happy with a sequential list of moves to learn from. Your list has some things in a different order than my list, but both are just about as valid. People learn differently, so what might be easy for one is advanced for another... and one will probably find the others easy move advanced.

Personally, I've been thinking of the poi learning experience like a roleplaying game: You start your poi adventure with experience from your life thus far, in different attributes. Since people have different experience in different attributes, they will pick up on one thing sooner than another. There are definitely foundation principles and moves that everyone tends to learn as beginners, but the order is different for different people. You just pick a certain skill and level that up a bit. Then it will inform the rest of your spinning as well.

Beyond the basics, you can work on leveling up certain move families. As you level up in a few different move families, you will unlock more complicated techniques where the families combine.

It's a bit like a poi 'choose your own adventure' novel. This is of course rather tricky to list, since it is non-linear in nature (good thing we have hyperlinks).

-Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

Posted: 23rd Jun 2008
Nathan, im working on getting some videos posted of my attempts at the reverse 3 beat and isos. i still cant seem to get it, but tommoro night theres a poi gathering in toronto so ill be heading there to see what i can learn.

Alien, the staff thing could be a huge help, a bit confusing but im pretty sure i get what you mean. ill try it out this evening.

Posted: 23rd Jun 2008

 Written by

Nathan: You forgot cateyes :P

Haha, did I forget them? Or did I leave them out to perpetuate my self-denial that they don't exist because I can't do them. I've been working on them, made a breakthrough the other day watching one of your videos... it's anti-spun! Grr, all that time wasted, no wonder I could only get the cat eye linear extension ellipse thing happening (unintentionally, as I was trying to do the anti-spin cat eye).

I'm making progress now, in thinking of it kinda like a 2 petal anti-spin flower. But I'm working through your stuff, bit by bit.

Being an ex-role playing game nut (pre-poi), I loved your analogy. I used to like to think of everything in life like that, especially weight lifting (I was training my strength) as you could see the numbers increasing.

Yeah, my list definitely isn't a "must follow". I personally didn't learn things in that order, and most of it can be mixed around as you please, only moves that require prerequisites really need to be done in an order.

A "web" style or "networking" style diagram would be best, but I couldn't be bothered. It's strange, but the diagram I'm picturing in my head resembles Neurons connecting to each other through different moves and reaching outwards through the various families. I'll dry and make one and show it later, but I'm sure you can visualise it, if you haven't already done so long before me.