Forums > Social Discussion > What Makes Something a Person?
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Is a chimp a person?
I think it's interesting because we constantly define "human" as being a "person". So, it got me thinking, under what grounds is something a "person"?
I understand the legal angle they are working. I wonder if there is another one that might not be better though.
It's very odd and interesting.
I'm curious as to their definition of person over human.
Is a chimp a person?
I think it's interesting because we constantly define "human" as being a "person". So, it got me thinking, under what grounds is something a "person"?
I understand the legal angle they are working. I wonder if there is another one that might not be better though.
It's very odd and interesting.
I'm curious as to their definition of person over human.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
Well thats a great question and I dont know.
When my dog was alive I always though he had human charactoristics. *however that is spelled* But I wouldnt of called him human. He's a dog....
Now a chimp/monkey, can you really say they are a person or do they have human traits? They are still an animal and unpredictable but humans can be classified the same way.
Well thats a great question and I dont know.
When my dog was alive I always though he had human charactoristics. *however that is spelled* But I wouldnt of called him human. He's a dog....
Now a chimp/monkey, can you really say they are a person or do they have human traits? They are still an animal and unpredictable but humans can be classified the same way.
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
You could go purely biological and go by class, etc - Homo Sapiens. But that would kind of mean previous "humans" weren't people as they had a different classification...
You could go purely biological and go by class, etc - Homo Sapiens. But that would kind of mean previous "humans" weren't people as they had a different classification...
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
chimps were people in planet of the apes. Otherwise not.
In the article the court argues that because the chimp isn't mentally impaired in any way that he shouldn't be allowed a guardian. But that's obviously in regards to his own species. In regards to a human he is mentally impaired. But then so are kids.
They say that a chimp has the mental age of a something year old, somewhere under ten.
We don't give children the status of 'persons' so why should we give chimps it?
But children do have legal guardians, so why isn't the chimp allowed one? Possibly becuase he's never going to grow into a person, like a child can.
chimps were people in planet of the apes. Otherwise not.
In the article the court argues that because the chimp isn't mentally impaired in any way that he shouldn't be allowed a guardian. But that's obviously in regards to his own species. In regards to a human he is mentally impaired. But then so are kids.
They say that a chimp has the mental age of a something year old, somewhere under ten.
We don't give children the status of 'persons' so why should we give chimps it?
But children do have legal guardians, so why isn't the chimp allowed one? Possibly becuase he's never going to grow into a person, like a child can.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
SILVER Member
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Posted:
because thats one of my main concerns, homeless apes pan handling on my corners. Next thing you know they will be washing windows with gutter water and a newspaper.
I say, once the ape learns ASL (i do beleive they have taught it to gorillas and chimps alike) and can defend himself in court using it, hes just a monkey.
Written by:
Activists want to ensure the apes don't wind up homeless if the shelter closes.
because thats one of my main concerns, homeless apes pan handling on my corners. Next thing you know they will be washing windows with gutter water and a newspaper.
I say, once the ape learns ASL (i do beleive they have taught it to gorillas and chimps alike) and can defend himself in court using it, hes just a monkey.
O.B.E.S.E.
Owned by Mynci!
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
In the eyes of the law, children are. That is why they can receive "donations", "guardians", file for emancipation and many other such "intelligent luxuries".
Now, I have to say that I hadn't thought about it in terms of them judging competency against their species and not against ours, which is what the laws were made of. Interesting.
Here in the US the animal protection laws actually cover instances such as this, and animals can receive inheritances and gifts. So why couldn't they just amend the laws?
poje, that is too funny! I've been to one of those wild safari drive thru things. I don't want the chimps to wash my car, as they always seem to take the antenna as a tip.
Written by: mcp
They say that a chimp has the mental age of a something year old, somewhere under ten.
We don't give children the status of 'persons' so why should we give chimps it?
In the eyes of the law, children are. That is why they can receive "donations", "guardians", file for emancipation and many other such "intelligent luxuries".
Now, I have to say that I hadn't thought about it in terms of them judging competency against their species and not against ours, which is what the laws were made of. Interesting.
Here in the US the animal protection laws actually cover instances such as this, and animals can receive inheritances and gifts. So why couldn't they just amend the laws?
poje, that is too funny! I've been to one of those wild safari drive thru things. I don't want the chimps to wash my car, as they always seem to take the antenna as a tip.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
Posted:
Well, if you kill them is it animal cruelty or murder?
If you're going to make an arbitrary line based on cognitive ability, what about if/when we finally create some sort of artificial intelligence?
Well, if you kill them is it animal cruelty or murder?
If you're going to make an arbitrary line based on cognitive ability, what about if/when we finally create some sort of artificial intelligence?
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored 
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA
Posted:
I'm sorry, WHAT!? A child isn't a person? I'm just going to go ahead and assume that's not what you meant.
Written by: mcp
We don't give children the status of 'persons' so why should we give chimps it?
I'm sorry, WHAT!? A child isn't a person? I'm just going to go ahead and assume that's not what you meant.
-James
"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"
BRONZE Member
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
Posted:
I think he meant that a child doesn't have the same rights as an adult.
I think he meant that a child doesn't have the same rights as an adult.
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
... in some countries, if you kill an animal (chimps included), it's either animal cruelty, or like damaging property.
If legislation goes ahead and provides the status of persons to chimps, they might actually be freed from animal testing facilities, at some stage even make legitimate claims for compensation of their own and families sufferings. Same applies to all animals tortured and slaughtered.
Are we ready to put animals rights ahead of (native) human rights? (as in contrast to another current thread)
... in some countries, if you kill an animal (chimps included), it's either animal cruelty, or like damaging property.
If legislation goes ahead and provides the status of persons to chimps, they might actually be freed from animal testing facilities, at some stage even make legitimate claims for compensation of their own and families sufferings. Same applies to all animals tortured and slaughtered.
Are we ready to put animals rights ahead of (native) human rights? (as in contrast to another current thread)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Hi Pele, interesting article and question.
I always thought a human being was a person, distinguished from other animals, by having evolved the ability for communication (language), abstract concepts and spiritual thought.
I agree, why not just amend the laws. My take is The Association Against Animal Factories is trying to get Pan declared a person, so in the future other animals can get legal status as human beings.
I had never heard about this idea before, but apparently there is a Great Ape personhood movement.
Hi Pele, interesting article and question.
I always thought a human being was a person, distinguished from other animals, by having evolved the ability for communication (language), abstract concepts and spiritual thought.
I agree, why not just amend the laws. My take is The Association Against Animal Factories is trying to get Pan declared a person, so in the future other animals can get legal status as human beings.
I had never heard about this idea before, but apparently there is a Great Ape personhood movement.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
NO he's not, monkeys have tails and are therefore much more animal like.
however you look at it they are still animals. even if they are ntelligent and can "act" like humans. I love animals but don't think they could be considered a person.
Written by: poje
hes just a monkey.
NO he's not, monkeys have tails and are therefore much more animal like.
however you look at it they are still animals. even if they are ntelligent and can "act" like humans. I love animals but don't think they could be considered a person.
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
No really they're not. They're not allowed to travel on their own. They're not allowed to earn money and live on their own in their own houses, they're not allowed to vote or become politicians and they're not allowed to defend themselves in court. These are things people can do.
They're 'owned' by their parents or guardians who are responsible for them. But at some point, they're grow up enough to take care of themselves. A chimp won't. When I think of people, I think of human adults.
When a chimp can stand up in court and defend himself then I might think of it as a person. That's not to say that animals shouldn't be treated with compassion. Cos they should.
No, because country's have different laws because different people have different views of what is right and wrong. I personally wouldn't want to see the law allowing inheritances to pass to pets anywhere, never mind outside of the US.
Written by: PeleWritten by: mcp
They say that a chimp has the mental age of a something year old, somewhere under ten.
We don't give children the status of 'persons' so why should we give chimps it?
In the eyes of the law, children are. That is why they can receive "donations", "guardians", file for emancipation and many other such "intelligent luxuries".
No really they're not. They're not allowed to travel on their own. They're not allowed to earn money and live on their own in their own houses, they're not allowed to vote or become politicians and they're not allowed to defend themselves in court. These are things people can do.
They're 'owned' by their parents or guardians who are responsible for them. But at some point, they're grow up enough to take care of themselves. A chimp won't. When I think of people, I think of human adults.
When a chimp can stand up in court and defend himself then I might think of it as a person. That's not to say that animals shouldn't be treated with compassion. Cos they should.
Written by: Pele
Here in the US the animal protection laws actually cover instances such as this, and animals can receive inheritances and gifts. So why couldn't they just amend the laws?
No, because country's have different laws because different people have different views of what is right and wrong. I personally wouldn't want to see the law allowing inheritances to pass to pets anywhere, never mind outside of the US.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
SILVER Member
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Elusive and Bearded
3,597 posts
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Posted:
If you re-read my post that is the only time i refered to it as a monkey, the rest of the time it's an ape. I called him a monkey to....i dunno irony maybe?
Written by: MynciWritten by: poje
hes just a monkey.
NO he's not, monkeys have tails and are therefore much more animal like.
however you look at it they are still animals. even if they are ntelligent and can "act" like humans. I love animals but don't think they could be considered a person.
If you re-read my post that is the only time i refered to it as a monkey, the rest of the time it's an ape. I called him a monkey to....i dunno irony maybe?
O.B.E.S.E.
Owned by Mynci!
SILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Posted:
There are many definitions in the dictionary as to what a "person" is.
Philosophically speaking, a person is any rational or self-conscious being. In that respect, I'd say primates are people. I'd also say most animals are too.
There are many definitions in the dictionary as to what a "person" is.
Philosophically speaking, a person is any rational or self-conscious being. In that respect, I'd say primates are people. I'd also say most animals are too.
Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
SILVER Member
Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
479 posts
Location: Over the hills and far away, United Kingdom
Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
479 posts
Location: Over the hills and far away, United Kingdom
Posted:
Maybe we humans just don't like to admit that we aren't the only "people" on this planet...
Maybe we humans just don't like to admit that we aren't the only "people" on this planet...
"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky
old hand
898 posts
Location: Binstead, Isle of Wight
898 posts
Location: Binstead, Isle of Wight
Posted:
Interesting question indeed.
When my daughter Indigo started having a mind of her own, doing things, becoming cheeky etc., I said: "She's not just a baby anymore, she's becoming a person." I think for me "a person" is someone who has his/her own personality, character, chooses to do things instead of just acting out of basic instincts.
Humans are still the only beings who act without using their instinct. I think that is what is meant with "personality" (being a person).
But that's only what I think.
Interesting question indeed.
When my daughter Indigo started having a mind of her own, doing things, becoming cheeky etc., I said: "She's not just a baby anymore, she's becoming a person." I think for me "a person" is someone who has his/her own personality, character, chooses to do things instead of just acting out of basic instincts.
Humans are still the only beings who act without using their instinct. I think that is what is meant with "personality" (being a person).
But that's only what I think.
Ask a question and be a fool for a minute...don't ask and be a fool your whole life.
SILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Posted:
Is it any being with a noticeable personality?
I have two rats and they both have very different personalities...
Is it any being with a noticeable personality?
I have two rats and they both have very different personalities...
Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
OK, but if a chimp is declared a person, it follows that all chimps are people.
And then what? Dogs? Chipmunks? Rats? Lizards? Spiders? Trees? Bacteria? Where's the line?
I say that you should come from a species of tool-makers with the capacity to use a linguistic system made of arbitrarily assigned symbols to communicate complex ideas.
It's debatable whether chimps make tools, but while you can teach one a few ASL words, they can't use langauge to communicate complex ideas. And that's really important.
Why? OK, you give a chimp a treat at the bottom of a tube. Some will tap the tube on something. Others might upend it and shake it. The smart ones might pick up a stick and poke at the treat to pull it out.
But NO chimp goes back to the enclosure with other chimps and shares the best way of solving the problem with them. The idea behind humans and what really sparked human evolution and development is language. Language means that each generation doesn't have to literally re-invent the wheel because someone else can tell them about wheels, how they work, and how to make one. So now the next generation can work on something to improve on a wheel, like axles, tires, grease, horses, engines, etc...
I think the ability to communicate complex ideas is necessary for a species to be declared "people." Those members of the species who, forever reason, cannot do so, should still be afforded "person" status.
OK, but if a chimp is declared a person, it follows that all chimps are people.
And then what? Dogs? Chipmunks? Rats? Lizards? Spiders? Trees? Bacteria? Where's the line?
I say that you should come from a species of tool-makers with the capacity to use a linguistic system made of arbitrarily assigned symbols to communicate complex ideas.
It's debatable whether chimps make tools, but while you can teach one a few ASL words, they can't use langauge to communicate complex ideas. And that's really important.
Why? OK, you give a chimp a treat at the bottom of a tube. Some will tap the tube on something. Others might upend it and shake it. The smart ones might pick up a stick and poke at the treat to pull it out.
But NO chimp goes back to the enclosure with other chimps and shares the best way of solving the problem with them. The idea behind humans and what really sparked human evolution and development is language. Language means that each generation doesn't have to literally re-invent the wheel because someone else can tell them about wheels, how they work, and how to make one. So now the next generation can work on something to improve on a wheel, like axles, tires, grease, horses, engines, etc...
I think the ability to communicate complex ideas is necessary for a species to be declared "people." Those members of the species who, forever reason, cannot do so, should still be afforded "person" status.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
... which exactly puts "persons" and "homo sapiens" on the same row.
I completely close shoulders with Mike.
This doesn't change that animals should be treated with respect. It doesn't say anything about different ways of communication or "personality".
IMO this is an approach to give animals the same status as human beings - and whilst by the intent of the universe - this even is the case, when it boils down to setting standards.... they are not like us.
Does that make them worse, or us better than them? No. Not IMHO. Animals do have personality and deep understanding. I have no experience with chimps, but I don't have to - to know that "animals" is just a word. Like "person", "love", "intelligence". It's just a word - what matters is what we connect with it (quoting Matrix, I know).
I've said it earlier this thread and please don't spank me (or at least do it right) if I rephrase it more provocative:
I notice that quite a number of humans are willing to apply more compassion and respect to animals, than to fellow humans - and I can understand the reasons for that, by looking at our race.
... which exactly puts "persons" and "homo sapiens" on the same row.
I completely close shoulders with Mike.
This doesn't change that animals should be treated with respect. It doesn't say anything about different ways of communication or "personality".
IMO this is an approach to give animals the same status as human beings - and whilst by the intent of the universe - this even is the case, when it boils down to setting standards.... they are not like us.
Does that make them worse, or us better than them? No. Not IMHO. Animals do have personality and deep understanding. I have no experience with chimps, but I don't have to - to know that "animals" is just a word. Like "person", "love", "intelligence". It's just a word - what matters is what we connect with it (quoting Matrix, I know).
I've said it earlier this thread and please don't spank me (or at least do it right) if I rephrase it more provocative:
I notice that quite a number of humans are willing to apply more compassion and respect to animals, than to fellow humans - and I can understand the reasons for that, by looking at our race.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
And if he is a person, can he be charged with a crime if he steals because he doesn't understand the concept of paying for something and swipes food from a store?
Or if he bites someone?
And if he is a person, can he be charged with a crime if he steals because he doesn't understand the concept of paying for something and swipes food from a store?
Or if he bites someone?
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
well for attacking, injuring and killing he will get charged anyway...
well for attacking, injuring and killing he will get charged anyway...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
479 posts
Location: Over the hills and far away, United Kingdom
Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
479 posts
Location: Over the hills and far away, United Kingdom
Posted:
So if one was to define "personality" as the ability to rationalise, follow logical thought, exhibit emotional responses and (perhaps most importantly) have self awareness -- then you could probably class certain apes, elephants, dolphins. Perhaps some species of dog or cat too. Probably even octopi.
A pretty good test of self awareness is showing an animal a mirror to see if it's capable of recognising that it's seeing itself and not another animal. Some animals do, some don't (even two of the same species may sometimes react differently).
IMHO, that's a whole different question. You can't expect the mind of any creature that isn't human to view the world the way humans do. Human rules and laws are still irrelevant to animals, regardless how much personality they have. They're different, by their very nature.
Just another o' those 2 cents comments. Interesting discussion...
So if one was to define "personality" as the ability to rationalise, follow logical thought, exhibit emotional responses and (perhaps most importantly) have self awareness -- then you could probably class certain apes, elephants, dolphins. Perhaps some species of dog or cat too. Probably even octopi.
A pretty good test of self awareness is showing an animal a mirror to see if it's capable of recognising that it's seeing itself and not another animal. Some animals do, some don't (even two of the same species may sometimes react differently).
Written by: Doc Lightning
And if he is a person, can he be charged with a crime if he steals because he doesn't understand the concept of paying for something and swipes food from a store?
Or if he bites someone?
IMHO, that's a whole different question. You can't expect the mind of any creature that isn't human to view the world the way humans do. Human rules and laws are still irrelevant to animals, regardless how much personality they have. They're different, by their very nature.
Just another o' those 2 cents comments. Interesting discussion...
"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,998 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,998 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
really does seem planet of the apes!
We have enough problems in society as it is... if we have apes running too
??
really does seem planet of the apes!
We have enough problems in society as it is... if we have apes running too
?? BRONZE Member
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
Posted:
Well there is your answer right there then
Written by:
IMHO, that's a whole different question. You can't expect the mind of any creature that isn't human to view the world the way humans do. Human rules and laws are still irrelevant to animals, regardless how much personality they have. They're different, by their very nature.
Well there is your answer right there then
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
SILVER Member
Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
479 posts
Location: Over the hills and far away, United Kingdom
Your friendly neighbourhood mad scientist
479 posts
Location: Over the hills and far away, United Kingdom
Posted:
Touché...
Touché...
"Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky
© 1998 - 2025 Home of Poi
All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com