Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Why 3-petal antispin flowers are NOT triquetras

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DrexFactorGOLD Member
Defeats the purpose
73 posts
Location: Washington, DC USA


Posted:
What is a triquetra?

For most of the past year, triquetra has been synonymous with three-petal antispin flowers and in some cases the hybrids that can be created by combining them with other patterns. Nick Woolsey even posted this video, explaining the concept and the term and its significance to poi spinning in general. After doing the math, however, I've come to the conclusion that what we describe as triquetras don't actually match the visual or mathematical properties of triquetras at all and that a couple of the conclusions we've reached based upon this assumption are false.




There are two assertions made in this video that are closely related and at the heart of the issue. They are:

3-petal antispin flowers look enough like triquetras that they possess the same qualitiesOne of these qualities is that the poi head travels the same distance during a 3-petal antispin flower in a single hand cycle as it would if the poi head and hand were in extension

If you consult the wikipedia entry on triquetras, you see quite a few different diagrams and examples of what triquetras look like. Below are the two most popular options, along with the shape generated by a 3-petal antispin flower (fig 1). The two patterns rendered are either the intersection of 3 vesica piscis between 3 circles (fig 2) or the intersection 3 vesica piscis between 4 circles.

Non-Https Image Link


A vesica piscis is defined as the overlap of two circles that meet at each other's center points (fig 4). When creating the first type of triquetra shown above, all three circles thus touch each other's centers (fig 5) while in the latter type, three circles all intersect a center circle at its center, but not each other (fig 6). Because of this, the three shapes wind up having vastly different geometric properties.

Non-Https Image Link


For the first type of triquetra, if we isolate only those parts of each circle that are inside the triquetra proper, we find that this segment of the circle is half it's total circumference (fig 7). With three such segments we find that the distance traveled by a poi head in this shape would be 1 1/2 times the distance of the extension around this shape--a vast difference. On the other hand, if we take the region within the triquetra of the 4-circle version, we find that the sections overlapped into the center circle are each 1/3 the circumference of each circle and the extension circle around them (fig 8). In this case, the triquetra really does have the same circumference as an extension it would be inlaid within. But if we superimpose the actual path a poi head follows in a 3-petal antispin flower, we find the two don't match up perfectly (fig 9). The poi path is clearly slightly larger, but by how much?

Non-Https Image Link


While staying in Africa back in August, I had the good fortune that my host Will Ruddick, in addition to being a poi spinner with a keen interest in international development, was also an accomplished Python programmer. While there, we collaborated on a program that could measure the total distance traveled by a poi head in any shape that could be described with a parametric equation. The method we used is as follows:

Will used a turtle draw program to graph the following parametric equation:

x=R1*sin(n1*t)+R2*sin(n2*t)
y=R1*cos(n1*t)+R2*cos(n2*t)

Where R1=radius of hand path circle, R2=length of poi (radius of poi path circle), n1=number of hand path downbeats, n2=number of poi path downbeats, and t=position in circle in radians. The program graphs points along the poi path and measures the distance between these points. To ensure the accuracy of the distances measured, we compared the program's measurements of extensions of different size to their circumference as derived by 2*radius*pi. We found that graphing points at increments of pi/100000 in radians yielded results that were identical to our control. With this result in hand, we proceeded to graph a number of inspin and antispin flowers to measure the total distance traveled by the poi head.

The result was that the poi head of a 3-petal antispin flower travels 6% more distance than an extension of the same size (the actual proportion is 0.94025222741786, which will be true of a poi tether/arm of any length). In other words: though a 3-petal antispin flower closely resembles a triquetra rendered by the intersection of 3 vesica piscis and 4 circles, it travels more than 1/20th the circumference of the extension further. A triquetra, then, is not an inverted extension.

Indeed, to make a triquetra given that it is the product of intersecting vesica pisces, one would need to perform 1/3 of an extension, point isolate around the poi head another 1/3 the distance of the extension, rotate the poi head another 1/3 the distance of the extension, etc until the poi head and hand had both performed 3 of these operations which would be difficult if not functionally impossible.

We may already be at a point where the term has saturated spinning culture to the point that it's now inseparable from 3-petal antispin flowers, but the distinction mathematically is an important one. Indeed, when we measure the distance traveled by the poi head we find that the inverse of a 3-petal antispin is actually a 1-petal inspin flower. Both shapes are 2 poi downbeats for every 1 hand downbeat.

If you're interested checking out the Python program, you can download it here. A complete spreadsheet of all the poi head distances will be coming as I write up more of the results.

This post is mirrored on my blog here.

Peace,
Drex


meshunderlayBRONZE Member
Juggler/Spinner
612 posts
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA


Posted:
So... what you're saying is that a 3-petal antispin flower is not a "triquetra" because it has no sharp points?

I'm a math/compsci person, and I think right now you're just looking way too closely and nitpicking.

Anyhow, are you taking into consideration the minute adjustments your hands have to make to not tangle the two poi during a 3-petal antispin vs. extension? =P

meshunderlayBRONZE Member
Juggler/Spinner
612 posts
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA


Posted:
While we're at it, actually...

Why not "Simultaneous bi-directionally spun" instead of "Anti-spin"?

DrexFactorGOLD Member
Defeats the purpose
73 posts
Location: Washington, DC USA


Posted:
Not quite--what I'm saying is that 3-petal antispin flowers, while the may resemble triquetras very closely don't have the same mathematical properties and thus the inverse of them is an inspin flower, not extension. There are a number of practical reasons this is important. For one, a technique I've frequently seen used to teach newbies CAPs is to tell them that switching direction from an extension to antispin and vice-versa will naturally create the CAP shape. What inevitably happens is that they perform one inspin petal on one side and one antispin petal on the other side--shapes which actually are inverses of each other. If we come at CAPs knowing that we are altering the poi path to make it work I think it'll flatten out the learning curve some.

As I said at the end, I think the term is already saturated enough into our culture that it's not really going anywhere, but the point here is that I think it's only functional as a metaphor, like how we call 2-petal antispins cateyes. The geometric properties of a triquetra don't actually carry over.

Peace,
Drex


meshunderlayBRONZE Member
Juggler/Spinner
612 posts
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA


Posted:
I'm just asking, mathematically speaking, if the reason why the triquetra move vs triquetra in science don't both equal the extension is just because poi people flow and don't just throw three stalls.

You said the difference isn't really all that large, 1/20th I think without scrolling back up (I'm lazy... It's Sunday).

DrexFactorGOLD Member
Defeats the purpose
73 posts
Location: Washington, DC USA


Posted:
The difference is mainly due to composition--triquetras aren't really roulette patterns (the epitrochoids and hypertrochoids that are the product of tracking a point along one circle that rotates around another circle). They're really interference patterns from multiple circles, so each segment is in fact a fraction of a circle while roulette patterns have eccentric curves. For the roulette patterns, a poi head must always be a poi length away from the point of intercept for the hand, whereas this distance isn't a constant with true triquetras.

I rounded to get to 1/20th, it's actually a little under a 6% difference, but it is enough to make a difference kinesthetically.

Peace,
Drex


meshunderlayBRONZE Member
Juggler/Spinner
612 posts
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA


Posted:
P.S. I didn't mean to come off as an ass, which I often might do.

Carry on. =P ^_^

P.P.S. Is it possible to spin same direction split time hands together triquetra vs upside down triquetra? *ponders*

chemairoSILVER Member
person who like to spin all gears
62 posts
Location: Germany - Düsseldorf


Posted:
Depend on how large the triquetras should be, but it should be possible

SpinnerofDetroitGOLD Member
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA


Posted:
Yes, I do it fairly commonly and there's also a bit of Nevisoul doing it in one of his videos. I don't know the time it's at, but it's in this one.


There's also another way to do it if you're flexible enough (like me) you don't need to be too flexible, you do it in wheelplane but your hands are together, I do it in this video actually.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin


meshunderlayBRONZE Member
Juggler/Spinner
612 posts
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA


Posted:
Thanks SoD, as I imagined, very pretty to look at... which made me realize why my spinning skills are so poor compared to the length of time which I've been doing it.... I sit around (sometimes under the influence) watching videos of pretty spinning. ^_^

SpinnerofDetroitGOLD Member
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA


Posted:
I have before watched them under the influence, they look so much more hypnotizing laugh3

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin


Sister ElevenGOLD Member
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA


Posted:
My understanding of the relationship between three petal antispins and extensions was that it's primarily a rhythmic affinity, and not so much a strict geometric one. That is, an extension with the same angular momentum as a static spin (antispins being essentially mobile static spins) will have half the angular velocity (provided the extension has twice the radius of the static spin). The relation to a one-petal in-spin is pretty natural and obvious, but I can't think you mean to deny that if you reverse the hand direction during an extension (provided, as mentioned above, your hand circle has a one poi radius) what you end up with is a three petal antispin. I think the problem with the kind of geometric modeling sometimes used to describe flowers is that they ignore the properties of momentum and therefore assume, erroneously, that the angular velocity of the poi will remain constant whatever the hand is doing.

p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s


LyeFate Keeps Telling Me To Stop
270 posts

Posted:
I think labeling things takes away from what they really are and trying to label things excessively, excessively takes away from what they are. No offense, just saying why I tldr. I was hoping for some sort of tutorial on a new shape.

meshunderlayBRONZE Member
Juggler/Spinner
612 posts
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA


Posted:
SoD: So, I don't think I'm quite flexible enough to do it your way, and I was out trying it last night and I can't figure how to stop everything from tangling. 3-petal vs extension seems ok, but 3 vs 3 *shrug*. I had a look in the mirror at what I was doing, and while it looked interesting, I really just ended up flailing my arms in a pseudo-circle while doing some antispin. *laughs*

Any tips?

SpinnerofDetroitGOLD Member
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA


Posted:
Hmm, thisisa bit hard to explain, but I thinkI know what your problem is. Imagine like it's a giant buzzsaw fountain, but the poi that is reaching across (say your facing left, your right poi will be on wheel plane) while the other poi in is the buzzsaw plane. I hope that helps.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin


meshunderlayBRONZE Member
Juggler/Spinner
612 posts
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA


Posted:
Ahh, didn't even think about buzzsaw fountain. Thanks.

SpinnerofDetroitGOLD Member
All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
2,280 posts
Location: Trenton, MI, USA


Posted:
It's not a buzzsaw fountain, but the way you transfer from side to side is pretty much the same. it's just that one of the poi remain in wallplane and the other is in between the two arms.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin


DrexFactorGOLD Member
Defeats the purpose
73 posts
Location: Washington, DC USA


Posted:
@Sister Eleven--thank you for this! I actually hadn't considered angular momentum at all in my model and went to go look up the math to cover this base, which was hella fun and educational smile

First up, a guide to the math for anybody who doesn't want to do the legwork I did this past week:

First up, the formula for determining angular momentum is as such:

L = r*p*sin(t)

Where L = angular momentum, r = distance of the object from its point of origin (radius), p = linear velocity, t = angle between the poi head's position vector and its momentum vector (for all intents and purposes this should be 90 degrees or 1/2*pi radians in any extension or static spin circle)

So to do a practical example, my poi are .56 meters long. If I'm performing a 2-poi unit extension (4 poi units across = 2.24 m) at 80 bpm (a nice, leisurely pace), I'm completing a circle that is 7.03 meters in circumference (2*pi*radius) every 1.33 seconds, giving me a velocity of 5.28 m/s. My angular momentum then is 1.12 m (radius of hand path plus radius of poi path) * 5.28 m/s * sin(90 degrees), which is equal to 5.91 kg.m^2.s^-1 (I know the notation is jacked...just focus on the number for now). In conserving angular momentum if we halve the length of the radius and re-solve for velocity, we get 5.91/.56m*sin(90 degrees) = 10.56 m/s, or twice our original velocity, completing 2 circles in the time it originally would have taken to complete one.

Here's where the details get a little blurry. Technically angular momentum is only a constant in the absence of torque, or rotational force. The reversal of hand direction is in and of itself a form of torque, but I'm still not entirely sure of its effect on the poi head. When reversing the hand, you get the option of what speed you move it around its path at. If you opt to move it back along the circle path at the same speed as its entry, then yes the poi is orbiting the hand twice as fast as it originally did.

I actually plugged the equation for angular momentum into my program to govern the movement of the poi and sure enough a 3-petal antispin flower is exactly what it spat out when I reversed the direction of the hand out of an 2-poi unit radius extension. So, at first blush you're totally right and a 3-petal antispin flower conserves the angular momentum of an extension.

All that said, I don't actually think modeling the poi head as though its in a static circle is the most appropriate way to handle the math for this side of the problem. Here's why:

Try spinning your poi in static spin on a horizontal plane and let go of it at any point. The poi should fly straight in a direction perpendicular to the position of the tether when you let go of it. This is its angle of linear momentum. Try to perform a 3-petal antispin flower in horizontal plane and you get a different result. If you release the poi at the tip of any of its flower petals, the poi head flies straight out in the same direction as the last position of the tether when you released it. This means that the angle between the poi head's position and momentum vectors aren't the same as they would be in a static spin, so the formula for the momentum needs to be tweaked accordingly. At this point the math has gone over my head and I've sent the problem off to a couple friends more skilled at calculus than I (btw, if you know the math on this, please share. I'd really appreciate the chance to learn if I've done something wrong in my calculations). So I'm gonna tentatively agree that 3-petal antispin flowers can be thought of as the angularly conserved inverse of an extension pending the outcome of that problem.

That said, I don't think it substantially alters the outcome of my original argument, which was that the resemblance of a triquetra to 3-petal antispin flowers is superficial and that these flowers don't possess the mathematical properties of triquetras. While the poi head is completing 2 cycles for every single cycle the hand completes, it still has to travel farther to complete those 2 cycles than it would if it were traveling around an extension of the same radius.

Thanks again for leaving this comment, btw--this has been a fun challenge so far! smile

Peace,
Drex


TABjugglerSILVER Member
newbie
26 posts
Location: Orlando, FL, USA


Posted:
Awesome discussion guys. I enjoyed reading it.

Unfortunately I don't remember enough from my Dynamics class to take the a look at your "further math" in my sleep deprived state, but I might come back to it in a few days if you haven't heard back from your friends.

I actually thought about trying to apply my dynamics equations to my poi when I was taking the class, but it seemed really complicated for some reason, since I didn't know as much about poi at the time. Flowers were still black magic to me.

I kinda like this idea of trying to use math to answer questions like this.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you are getting at and I am pretty sure I have at least seen some of the stuff I would use to deal with the problem. The solution doesn't seem that difficult. I'll try to come back to it when I am well rested.

1020bennySouthern Spinner
13 posts
Location: DFW, TEXAS


Posted:
Nice write up; Excellent read.

-I'm so Psily ::))


DidgeridudeGOLD Member
Object Manipulationist, Chain Maille Artisan, Didgeridoo Performer and Teacher
37 posts
Location: On the Road, Gypsie Style, USA


Posted:
hold on. . . .my brain just exploded. 0_o

I do not have a Soul, . . . I AM a Soul.
I Have a body.



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