Forums > Social Discussion > Saudi judge refuses to annul 8-year-old's marriage

Posted: 12th Apr 2009
thats disgusting

This is part of a much larger problem I think tho, not religious or cultural but humanistic.. Some people, often those in power forget the rights of those that 'dont matter in the greater scheme of things' i.e. those that arnt in power.

And while the event in question is quite clearly an eastern, or more acturaly an 'islamic issue' we see these denials of human rights across all countries. I could quote, but I believe most people here are intelligent enough to recognise this. But I will post documented examples if needed.

Otherwise, it is unfortunate that no matter how much fuss is kicked up by the mother, or foreign organisations this problem wont be reolved due to the nations cultural respect. which it is perfectly entitled too I might add.. but some problems deserve change (and not the sort of change Obmama promised I might add), but because of borders and the respect of another culture + the critisisims of these are labelled as racism.

which is a word I think these problems hide behind.. critisising anothers culture and/or religion isnt racist when its related to a persons human rights. when u can 'freely' (I use quotes respectivly here) critisise the governments, free speech and other important aspects of GLOBAL life.

I'd like to point out that we are all citisens of the globe, before the imaginary lines that divide us up on a map..

Posted: 12th Apr 2009
Originally Posted By: R0cketSh1p
Otherwise, it is unfortunate that no matter how much fuss is kicked up by the mother, or foreign organisations this problem wont be reolved due to the nations cultural respect. which it is perfectly entitled too I might add.. but some problems deserve change (and not the sort of change Obmama promised I might add), but because of borders and the respect of another culture + the critisisims of these are labelled as racism.

There are things, however, that go beyond cultural relativism. Child molestation is universally considered unacceptable.

So what do you do with a "culture" that feels that it is its right to do stuff that almost every other human culture in history has declared to be wrong?

In my opinion, hard-line Islam is such a culture.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

Posted: 13th Apr 2009
I dont want to get involved in another discussion about religion but once again that is where the problem lies.

Doc - It is only recent secular societies that have declared child abuse an outrage. It was common in ancient Greece and Rome. Its only very recent that children have not been forced to work in incredibly dangerous jobs in the western world. Most major religions have only ever been bad for children. Just look at what the Catholic Church has done to cover up the behaviour of its ministers / treatment of children in its educational establishments!(I'll stop there but the list could go on almost endlessly)

Its not religion as such that is the problem. It is a society that derives its values and laws from something other than 'reason' and 'logic'.

Yes - To a rational person this seems insane. However, to someone who's beliefs are based loosely on the teachings of a man who lived 1400 years ago its perfectly normal.

To solve this problem we need to fight the cause as well as the symptoms. Secularisation is the only way forward. Charles Bradlaugh would be spinning in his grave if he could see how little some parts of the world have progressed since his death.

Posted: 13th Apr 2009
You are very right Doc, I believe hard-line Islam is on of the most degrading cultures.. It says in the Kor'an that Muhammed took a 6 year old for his bride, and consumated his marrage when she was 9.. And this is the guy they believe to be God?

Now I dont pretend to know wot God is, but I think most even 1/2 intelligent people here could tell you wot he is NOT..

But where can you even begin to do with a culture so set agasint the flow of life, remember if you reject islam your own family will kill you. They say this is only in Islamic countries now and it is rare, that as we know is a lie and we see these 'honor killings' in our own news papers..

In truth I think any change must come from inside Islam itself, and I think that change will come from the new generation. Reports like this show that even Musilms are not happy with particular laws.

Posted: 18th Apr 2009
R0cketSh1p:
Just as a point, Mohammed as far as I can tell has never been viewed as God. He was seen as a prophet and messenger of God and was the last to lay down major religious laws and so forth.

Also, I find it hard to believe that it would say something like that in the Qur'an which is viewed as God's message to mankind, not the life story of Mohammed, although I have no way of knowing if it is true or not so am not arguing with you on that point.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

Posted: 18th Apr 2009
Cheers for that link Seye.

I just found a new idol

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

Posted: 19th Apr 2009
Aston:
you are right ofcourse, 'Allah' is their god.. For some reason my mind completely blanked this point when writing that post, but I was informed of his bride through what I believe to be a reliable and unbiased source. A religious debate program or documentary, though the name escapes me right now.. I'll do my best to find it again and post a link if people are interested..

Posted: 19th Apr 2009
the dominant sect of islam in saudi arabia is the waha'bi sect, which is as close to traditional islam as mormons are to catholics, by no means though am i protecting any form of islam/religion.

stories like this will continue to come out because the rest of the world will not screw with saudi because of their oil reserves.

seye's point does hold, "childhood" itself is a very recent phenomenon. even the idea that children should be given different clothes etc... many old paintings with kids you will see them dressed in the same attire as their parents.

an old lecturer of mine nick lee has done lots of research on "childhood" i found a little preview of one of his books on google

"the geeks have got you" - Gayle

Posted: 19th Apr 2009
Originally Posted By: SeyeI dont want to get involved in another discussion about religion but once again that is where the problem lies.

Doc - It is only recent secular societies that have declared child abuse an outrage. It was common in ancient Greece and Rome.

What was common in Greece and Rome was homosexual play between men and teenage boys who were in late puberty. Pre-pubertal children have *never* been considered sexual objects in any culture.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

Posted: 19th Apr 2009
Doc, I dont know enough about the it to argue. All I know is the anecdotal evidence about Socrates (and others) from studying Philosophy at uni.

However - It wasnt too long ago that children of all ages were forced to work in, what would now be seen as, appallingly dangerous jobs in all western nations.
Also in the UK the age of consent was first set in 1275 at the age of 12. There it remained until 1875 when it was raised to 13. Then in 1885 it was raised to 16. Just 124 years ago.
Marriage at a young age has onle been frowned on for a relatively short amount of time in our society's history.

Whether you choose to see this as signs that (what would now be seen as) abuse was (acceptable and) rife or it was simply a different set of values is down to your interpretation I guess.

Posted: 19th Apr 2009
Just as a note for anyone thats interested...

The year that the age of consent was raised to 16 in the UK was the year before the first athiest MP was allowed to sit in the House of Commons.

This was another public service announcement brought to you by Seye's Random Info LTD.

FRD - He's definitely a hero of mine. There's a statue of him in my home town. Hardly anyone there knows who it is or appreciates how important he was.