Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > difference between hip mill and 2 beat weave?

Posted: 23rd Mar 2009
Ummm, I dunno. I would need the resource to be able to work out what you are looking at. I have heard the term "Hipmill" used for a few things...

If its what I am thinking it is, then it isn't really different from a two beat weave done in front and back wall planes...

The only thing to remember is that the arm that is on its unnatural side should be on the bottom. If it is on top, it would work better as a shoulder mill.

You can try doing a 3 beat if you like... and just using it to switch between hip and shoulder mills. (That of course depends on how fluid you are with these movements and positions.)

Posted: 23rd Mar 2009
I'm guessing you're talking about Yuta's video?

I contested that on the youtube comments.

To me, it's pretty much exactly the same as a 2 beat weave in the wall-plane. The only real difference to it from a 2 beat weave is that with a mill you should keep your hands close together, while that's optional with weaves. That's a stretch though, but it's the only thing I could even think of as being different.

You're not the only one who's not catching the difference. If you want to break it down differently, one hand is doing a hip-reel, and the other hand is doing a crossed-hip-reel, in split-time, same-direction... but instead of saying all that, we just say 2 beat weave in wall-plane.

Yuta explained to me that he thinks of these moves differently from me, I break it down into reels, or just weaves in wall-plane, he considers weaves in different locations in wall-plane, different "mills". Like a shoulder mill would be a 2 beat weave done in wall plane over the shoulder.

Posted: 23rd Mar 2009
DUH. Forgot the link:

Posted: 23rd Mar 2009
Thanks for the great replies!

MNS: Thank you for the suggestion on the transition and for the breakdown of the hands for the different mills/reels/weaves. I have no problem with weaves. (I just nailed the BTB weave! WOOT!) I am going to go out in a bit and try the transition you suggested. I've been playing around a good bit and I may have done it without realizing what I was doing. I tend to come up with things and not understand the mechanics of it for a while and then read about or watch the same move and drive myself crazy trying to figure out how to do this "new move" I've never seen before. LMAO.

Nathaniel: that makes perfect sense. Your clarification, as always, is extrememly helpful. (And btw, I'm hoping to have new video up on my channel soon. The girls from one of my troupes are the finale for a women in performing arts evening at Lousiana State University this week. We're going to try to get some decent footage. I've come a loooong way from what I have posted at the moment. Largely thanks to you.) MUAH!

Posted: 23rd Mar 2009
Yep, thats what I thought we were talking about and I was indeed correct. =)

Nathaniel

I don't think its even about keeping the hands together, I am sure it would be classified the same way no matter how far apart they were. But I see what your saying and along the same lines I think the in order to complete the illusion of it being a completely different motion to the 2 beat you have to tuck the underside hand in close to the hip.

I understand why yuta has classified it differently and I would also classify it the way he does... My approach is to classify it in every possible way it can be classified.

He has classified it by the poi control skills that you would need to have in order to do the movement. Being able to do the 2 beat doesn't mean you can do this, but if you are able to do a reel and a crossed reel you can!

This approach is a very clever one because it allows him to think about where in the space around his body he can/cannot do certain movements. As yutas poi is mostly centred around dance (And I acknowledge his tech but its dancetech) its very important for him to be able to do anything anywhere, he has merely structured the system around his use of poi.

Swirlygrrl, I tend to do the same thing! "Is it this?" "No its not that... its this!" "So wait... that one goes... oh right... its this.. I could already do this." "...~_~"

Posted: 23rd Mar 2009
Ok guys the difference is reeeeaaaaly subtle, because the the wall plane position at your side is THE subtlest topological boundary between "mills" and "weaves" you can get me thinks, so the line is faint and blurry but it is there~ish.

The key is in the tucking your open-side arm under rather than over the wrist. It has to do with the limits to how far you can twist your arms in their shoulder sockets and this is transposed all the way down to the wrists.

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!! *WARNING*: Giant technical Alien post bellow !!

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To illustrate the diffence, hold your arms out to the side, ala Vetruvian Man and give no one in particular a thumbs up. Notice that you can twist your wrist and turn your thumbs over your arms, OR twist your wrist the other way and turn your thumb under your arms.

So the above illustrate range of twist in your arms makes it easier to twist over when doing a crossover above the shoulders, or twist under (ala the hip mill) when doing a crossover below the shoulders. If you try to do the unnatural reciprocal of this, it will be rather awkward, resulting in more of a wrist lock than a smooth poi move.

Now considering that most people spin with the poi leaving either your thumb/forefinger or coming out your knuckles. This make the neutral arm position of a wheel plane "weave" very close to twisting over when you turn your body into wall plan.

Try it the other way: do a wheel plane "weave", but twist your wrist under so that your palms are always facing out and the backs of your hand are facing inverted. Interesting feeling , no?

So now we apply this to wall-plane "weaves" and "mills". The importance is in the interconnect between plane-facings and the natural twit limits of your wrist/shoulders. Plane-facings deal with which side of the plane you are holding onto as you flip through the crossover points.

So now do a 2-beat weave in wheel plane and turn your body into wall plane orientation. It is right on the edge, but still moving between 1st degree and 0 degree positions, which also means it is an asymmetric weave. Now turn your body all the way back through wheel-plane to the other wall-plane. Notice how it is still right on the edge of being an asymmetric 2-beat (1st deg <-> 0 deg). Also notice how on one side it favors being lower (hip level) and on the other side it favors being shoulder level). The natural levels are part of the being right on the topological edge of turning into "mills".

Now, try keeping your body still but moving the local at the wrists 2-beat weave from your side, to the front (making awkward use of insides). Do this WITHOUT allowing your wrists to flip over. Now see how far you can get to the other side. >_< Doesn't work so well does it!

Where as if you flip your wrist over/under as needed you end up turning it into a "mill". A 2-beat mill is symmetric and 0-deg all the way. You can take it from hip to hip or shoulder, through a transitional wall-plane inside pattern (ie watermill) without flipping or changing anything really.

Here is the the general rule for "mills" vs "weaves" in split-time:
"weaves" have symmetric degrees with odd # of orbits/beats, ie 3 5 7, etc. Even beats are asymmetric. Topologically speaking, you can orient your self in "forwards" or "reverse" to "weaves". "mills" have symmetric even beats, ie 2 4 6, etc. Odd beats are asymmetric. Topologically speaking, you can orient your self in "clockwise" or "counter-clockwise" to "mills".

ok, pardon me wile my brain steams for a little wile!
+Alien Jon

+Alien Jon

Posted: 23rd Mar 2009
uuummm...I think if I can ever digest that it's going to be a HUGE help. Thank you for taking the time to go into such depth. I'm going to print it out and take it in little by little.

MNS: I need to switch my view over to be a little more like Yuta's. I tend to get stuck standing in one place and going from one move to the next. I tend to be very technically oriented but I really want to learn to move more freely with them. I wish there were a video out there that focused on dancing with poi. Oh, and it helps to know I'm not the only one who does the whole "OH, I already knew how to do that after 3 hours of trying to understand a move." hehe.

Posted: 24th Mar 2009
Interesting. I think I need to play with that....

I need to do a Youtube raid and include some of Yuta's lessons as well.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland