Forums > Social Discussion > Does the US Army Deserve Praise?
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Carpal \'Tunnel
2,666 posts
Location: Preston, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,666 posts
Location: Preston, United Kingdom
Posted:
I was in another forum and I saw this message..
The US army is one of the most imoral uncareing and reckless armys around currently, they arnt all like that but it seems somewhere along the way the content control seems to have been skipped by the men in charge.
So I put in this post
Then this guy posts this...
To which I posted after much thought
God bless america, land of the free, land of the american dream, land of the smug! Until someone says something they dont like and they want to erase it, I guess there's a little Richard Nixon in all of them.
I hope this turns into a worthwhile post I think ive gone and missed 'The woman Who Thinks Like a Cow' because of it...dag-namit!
I was in another forum and I saw this message..
Written by:
BAGHDAD, Iraq — Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Al Qaeda in Iraq leader who led a brutal insurgency that included homicide bombings, kidnappings and beheadings, was killed in an airstrike on a building north of Baghdad, U.S. and Iraqi officials announced Thursday.
The man whose been responsible for killing American Soldiers and the deaths of untold thousands of Iraqi civilians just ate 1000lbs of bombs, which was oh so graciously delivered to him by one of our F-16's.
Keep up the good fight guys. The world is a safer place today.
The US army is one of the most imoral uncareing and reckless armys around currently, they arnt all like that but it seems somewhere along the way the content control seems to have been skipped by the men in charge.
So I put in this post
Written by:
Now if we could just stop jar heads killing civilians, or shooting british troops. There was this time these geniouse americans were orderd to wait for british troops to relieve them and told to shoot anyone who comes near them until the british arrive. The english arrive in english vehicles, at the correct time, on the planned route, broadcasting over the radio announcing there approach. So what do the american troops do? Start shooting the British, huzah!
Then this guy posts this...
Written by:
On the interest of keeping things civil, I'll ask you to remove that, or have a DM do so, and we'll forget it was ever there.
This was made to honor those who are over there making the sacrifice that to few are willing to make. American, British, Australian, Japanese, and the rest of those in the coalition.
Not to attack them
To which I posted after much thought
Written by:
Wouldnt that be un-constitutional?
God bless america, land of the free, land of the american dream, land of the smug! Until someone says something they dont like and they want to erase it, I guess there's a little Richard Nixon in all of them.
I hope this turns into a worthwhile post I think ive gone and missed 'The woman Who Thinks Like a Cow' because of it...dag-namit!
Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat
'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?
BRONZE Member
Member
13 posts
Location: Boise, ID, USA
Member
13 posts
Location: Boise, ID, USA
Posted:
Well put, I guess I have nothing more to say except give credit to those who deserve it...there are a lot of men and women over there doing the right thing, following all of the rules, and haven't killed a single person, they are just following daily orders and doing their jobs....at least give credit to those who are following the Rules.
Written by: Mr Majestik
if that were true and everyone had the same mentality as me there would be NO "major situations". that argument cant be used to ask for credit.
Well put, I guess I have nothing more to say except give credit to those who deserve it...there are a lot of men and women over there doing the right thing, following all of the rules, and haven't killed a single person, they are just following daily orders and doing their jobs....at least give credit to those who are following the Rules.
Life comes to a complete standstill sometimes.......that's when you kick it in the nuts and tell it to get back to work
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
So now Violently Tame, you are saying it was your decision to be in Iraq.
Patriarch917, what personal insults? That the American army has no discipline, and is a rabble. I thought someone might actually stand-up for the army and tell us how disciplined they are, but it seems no one is willing.
So now Violently Tame, you are saying it was your decision to be in Iraq.
Patriarch917, what personal insults? That the American army has no discipline, and is a rabble. I thought someone might actually stand-up for the army and tell us how disciplined they are, but it seems no one is willing.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
But you have to admit they look impressive and disciplined marching in their shiny uniforms on parade...
But you have to admit they look impressive and disciplined marching in their shiny uniforms on parade...
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
I was refering to the line before that where you said: "Violently Tame, how long have you been blaming other people for your own misfortunes?"
Written by: Stone
Patriarch917, what personal insults? That the American army has no discipline, and is a rabble.
I was refering to the line before that where you said: "Violently Tame, how long have you been blaming other people for your own misfortunes?"
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Sorry Patriarch917 but that was not a personal insult.
So, I’m still left with the impression that a lack of discipline in the US military has led to military training regimens being watered-down, physical training standards lowered, dress standards relaxed, and disciplinary problems, including rampant drug abuse, increasing and being tolerated.
Sorry Patriarch917 but that was not a personal insult.
So, I’m still left with the impression that a lack of discipline in the US military has led to military training regimens being watered-down, physical training standards lowered, dress standards relaxed, and disciplinary problems, including rampant drug abuse, increasing and being tolerated.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Posted:
Yes, it was my decision to join the army,stone, but no I did not want to come here.
Our training has not been "watered down", our Physical Training is the same as it has been for the past ten years or so,our uniform standards have not been altered in any way with the exeption of the new uniform. as far as drug use, everyone from private bussiness's to top government officals have drug problems. In the U.S.Army soldiers don't get away with doing drugs. When caught they have money,rank, and time taken away from them along with a jail sentence given to them.
And yes, it was a personl insult. It's not how you say something that matters,it's how it's interpreted by others.
Yes, it was my decision to join the army,stone, but no I did not want to come here.
Our training has not been "watered down", our Physical Training is the same as it has been for the past ten years or so,our uniform standards have not been altered in any way with the exeption of the new uniform. as far as drug use, everyone from private bussiness's to top government officals have drug problems. In the U.S.Army soldiers don't get away with doing drugs. When caught they have money,rank, and time taken away from them along with a jail sentence given to them.
And yes, it was a personl insult. It's not how you say something that matters,it's how it's interpreted by others.
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-
Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Violently Tame, I did not consider my comments an insult. They were meant as advice; perhaps gratuitous. It was your decision to join the army so why complain? For me, it is important to realise that if my like sucks, then it is due to the decisions I have made. It is no use blaming other people for our decisions. After all, no one forced you to join the army or go to Iraq. Own it, blaming other people is just an excuse.
I did get offended by you acceptance and tolerance of rape. Your statement that you “cannot rape the willing” suggest to me that rape is acceptable, or even encouraged in the armed forces.
When I was referring to the discipline I meant “The sense of cohesion that comes from combining the individual wills of group members provides unity of purpose. The group that achieves such cohesiveness is truly a unit. Effective discipline is a critical factor at all levels of the military, and nowhere more so than at the unit level.”
This type of discipline, I suggest is missing the US army, as is service, as in military service.
Violently Tame, I did not consider my comments an insult. They were meant as advice; perhaps gratuitous. It was your decision to join the army so why complain? For me, it is important to realise that if my like sucks, then it is due to the decisions I have made. It is no use blaming other people for our decisions. After all, no one forced you to join the army or go to Iraq. Own it, blaming other people is just an excuse.
I did get offended by you acceptance and tolerance of rape. Your statement that you “cannot rape the willing” suggest to me that rape is acceptable, or even encouraged in the armed forces.
When I was referring to the discipline I meant “The sense of cohesion that comes from combining the individual wills of group members provides unity of purpose. The group that achieves such cohesiveness is truly a unit. Effective discipline is a critical factor at all levels of the military, and nowhere more so than at the unit level.”
This type of discipline, I suggest is missing the US army, as is service, as in military service.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
The statement "you cannot rape the willing" is merely a way of saying "consensual sex is not rape."
It is comparable to saying "you cannot steal a gift" or "you cannot murder a corpse."
Written by: Stone
I did get offended by you acceptance and tolerance of rape. Your statement that you “cannot rape the willing” suggest to me that rape is acceptable, or even encouraged in the armed forces.
The statement "you cannot rape the willing" is merely a way of saying "consensual sex is not rape."
It is comparable to saying "you cannot steal a gift" or "you cannot murder a corpse."
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
No Patriarch917, it implies that rape is acceptable.
As in she was willing.
Perhaps you should consider what you say more carefully.
No Patriarch917, it implies that rape is acceptable.
As in she was willing.
Perhaps you should consider what you say more carefully.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
Member
13 posts
Location: Boise, ID, USA
Member
13 posts
Location: Boise, ID, USA
Posted:
I don't know how things in other countries military is handled, but I know that when I was in Iraq, we were not allowed to drink, we are never allowed to do drugs, some of my best friends got sent to a Ft. Levenworth Penitentary for it.....anyway....While I was in Iraq if we got caught drinking we were sent home and seriously punished, sometimes even kicked out, but I do know that the Polish military that we worked with got a liquor ration once a week....I don't know about anybody else, but I wouldn't want to be around people with guns if they have been drinking!
Written by: Stone
Sorry Patriarch917 but that was not a personal insult.
So, I’m still left with the impression that a lack of discipline in the US military has led to military training regimens being watered-down, physical training standards lowered, dress standards relaxed, and disciplinary problems, including rampant drug abuse, increasing and being tolerated.
I don't know how things in other countries military is handled, but I know that when I was in Iraq, we were not allowed to drink, we are never allowed to do drugs, some of my best friends got sent to a Ft. Levenworth Penitentary for it.....anyway....While I was in Iraq if we got caught drinking we were sent home and seriously punished, sometimes even kicked out, but I do know that the Polish military that we worked with got a liquor ration once a week....I don't know about anybody else, but I wouldn't want to be around people with guns if they have been drinking!
Life comes to a complete standstill sometimes.......that's when you kick it in the nuts and tell it to get back to work
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
Let us pretend, just for the sake of argument, hypothetically, that the word "rape" meant "having sex with someone against their will."
If I then had sex with somone who was willing, would it be "rape?"
Written by: Stone
No Patriarch917, it implies that rape is acceptable.
As in she was willing.
Perhaps you should consider what you say more carefully.
Let us pretend, just for the sake of argument, hypothetically, that the word "rape" meant "having sex with someone against their will."
If I then had sex with somone who was willing, would it be "rape?"
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom
Posted:
"You can't rape the willing" disturbs me when it is said by someone holding a gun.
If someone points a gun at you and asks you "Do you want to have sex?" what are you going to say?
"You can't rape the willing" disturbs me when it is said by someone holding a gun.
If someone points a gun at you and asks you "Do you want to have sex?" what are you going to say?
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
Why would it matter what I said? Does whether it is rape or not depend on whether I am willing, or coerced by fear?
Written by: Sethis
"You can't rape the willing" disturbs me when it is said by someone holding a gun.
If someone points a gun at you and asks you "Do you want to have sex?" what are you going to say?
Why would it matter what I said? Does whether it is rape or not depend on whether I am willing, or coerced by fear?
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Patriarch917, I don’t do hypotheticals. You can play with words all you like, but it won’t change the meaning and context of the phrase “you can’t rape the willing”. The phase implies that rape is acceptable if you use that excuse ”they were willing”. Rape is never justified or acceptable under any circumstances.
This is also the meaning implied in the example, where it was suggested that Iraq was willing to be raped by America. Now, this was most obviously not the case. The Iraqis never wanted America anywhere near their country. Again, saying Iraq was willing to be raped is just an excuse to justify the rape of another. To suggest that Iraq wanted to be raped by America is just another example of American arrogance.
Patriarch917, I don’t do hypotheticals. You can play with words all you like, but it won’t change the meaning and context of the phrase “you can’t rape the willing”. The phase implies that rape is acceptable if you use that excuse ”they were willing”. Rape is never justified or acceptable under any circumstances.
This is also the meaning implied in the example, where it was suggested that Iraq was willing to be raped by America. Now, this was most obviously not the case. The Iraqis never wanted America anywhere near their country. Again, saying Iraq was willing to be raped is just an excuse to justify the rape of another. To suggest that Iraq wanted to be raped by America is just another example of American arrogance.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia
Posted:
right - partiarch917 - you need to rephrase what you have said about the definition of rape and willingness.
My reading of your comments makes me think that you condone rape and that you have an odd definition of rape.
I don't want to assume what you are trying to say, and am giving you the benefit of the doubt in being able to explain in more clear language what you mean.
I'm not sure this is the first time I have read your comments as condoning rape...
right - partiarch917 - you need to rephrase what you have said about the definition of rape and willingness.
My reading of your comments makes me think that you condone rape and that you have an odd definition of rape.
I don't want to assume what you are trying to say, and am giving you the benefit of the doubt in being able to explain in more clear language what you mean.
I'm not sure this is the first time I have read your comments as condoning rape...
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
That is an incorrect reading of the phrase. The phrase does not say "rape is ok if they are willing." Rather, the phrase says "if they are willing, it is not rape."
Far from playing with words, this gives the word "rape" it's common meaning: sex against someone's will. To say "you can't rape the willing" is to say "you can't have sex against someone's will, if they are willing"... a statement that is clearly true.
The statement is the legal equivilent of saying "you can't steal a gift." If you gave me a gift, and then accused me of stealing, I would say "stealing is taking something from you against your will. Since you willingly gave it to me, it wasn't stealing."
In the same way, if you willingly had sex with me, then accused me of rape, I would say "rape is having sex with you against your will. Since you willingly had sex with me, it wasn't rape."
In other words, you can't rape the willing.
All sex is not rape. If Iraq willingly had sex with America, then America did not rape them. If you want to accuse America of rape, you should not take the position that "sex is rape, even if they were willing." Rather, you should say "it is true that if they were willing, it couldn't have been rape. However, they were not willing, therefore it was."
We could then disagree over whether they were willing, which is (I think) the issue that you would like to discuss. The next time I say "you can't rape the willing" you should say "true, but they weren't willing."
You can't murder a corpse.
Written by: Stone
You can play with words all you like, but it won’t change the meaning and context of the phrase “you can’t rape the willing”. The phase implies that rape is acceptable if you use that excuse ”they were willing”.
That is an incorrect reading of the phrase. The phrase does not say "rape is ok if they are willing." Rather, the phrase says "if they are willing, it is not rape."
Far from playing with words, this gives the word "rape" it's common meaning: sex against someone's will. To say "you can't rape the willing" is to say "you can't have sex against someone's will, if they are willing"... a statement that is clearly true.
The statement is the legal equivilent of saying "you can't steal a gift." If you gave me a gift, and then accused me of stealing, I would say "stealing is taking something from you against your will. Since you willingly gave it to me, it wasn't stealing."
In the same way, if you willingly had sex with me, then accused me of rape, I would say "rape is having sex with you against your will. Since you willingly had sex with me, it wasn't rape."
In other words, you can't rape the willing.
All sex is not rape. If Iraq willingly had sex with America, then America did not rape them. If you want to accuse America of rape, you should not take the position that "sex is rape, even if they were willing." Rather, you should say "it is true that if they were willing, it couldn't have been rape. However, they were not willing, therefore it was."
We could then disagree over whether they were willing, which is (I think) the issue that you would like to discuss. The next time I say "you can't rape the willing" you should say "true, but they weren't willing."
You can't murder a corpse.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Patriarch917, I don't think you are aware of the many Myths and Misconceptions regarding rape.
“People have many misconceptions about sexual assault. For instance: "you can't rape the willing;" or "people often cry rape when, in fact, they wanted it to happen;" or "only sexy young women get assaulted;" or "rape is only rape if committed by a stranger." All these examples serve to set the victim up to take the blame for the assault.
The attacker is the only one responsible. Victim blaming is one of the most damaging responses to sexual violence.”
(Sexual Assault Victim Advocate)
Patriarch917, I don't think you are aware of the many Myths and Misconceptions regarding rape.
“People have many misconceptions about sexual assault. For instance: "you can't rape the willing;" or "people often cry rape when, in fact, they wanted it to happen;" or "only sexy young women get assaulted;" or "rape is only rape if committed by a stranger." All these examples serve to set the victim up to take the blame for the assault.
The attacker is the only one responsible. Victim blaming is one of the most damaging responses to sexual violence.”
(Sexual Assault Victim Advocate)
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
I have given you a definition of the word "rape": sex against someone's will.
You have not said whether you agree with this definition, or explained what you believe the meaning of the word "rape" should be.
You have "appealed to authority." Very well. I will demonstrate that the authority is mistaken, using their own words as proof.
Look up on that site their definition of “sexual assault (also rape, sexual violence, sexual abuse)” and you will find that they define it as “Any sexual contact or attempted sexual contact without a person's consent or in circumstances where a person is unable to give consent.”*
Consent, or lack thereof, is an indication of whether you are willing or unwilling. If you consent to have sex, you have indicated that you are “willing” to have sex.
Thus, if you have sex with someone who consents, it is not rape. To express the same idea with different words, if you have sex with someone who is willing, it is not rape.
Why isn’t it rape? Because you can’t "rape" the willing. Sex only becomes "rape" if they were unwilling.
I have given you a definition of the word "rape": sex against someone's will.
You have not said whether you agree with this definition, or explained what you believe the meaning of the word "rape" should be.
You have "appealed to authority." Very well. I will demonstrate that the authority is mistaken, using their own words as proof.
Look up on that site their definition of “sexual assault (also rape, sexual violence, sexual abuse)” and you will find that they define it as “Any sexual contact or attempted sexual contact without a person's consent or in circumstances where a person is unable to give consent.”*
Consent, or lack thereof, is an indication of whether you are willing or unwilling. If you consent to have sex, you have indicated that you are “willing” to have sex.
Thus, if you have sex with someone who consents, it is not rape. To express the same idea with different words, if you have sex with someone who is willing, it is not rape.
Why isn’t it rape? Because you can’t "rape" the willing. Sex only becomes "rape" if they were unwilling.
Written by:
*Leave aside for the moment the circumstances where a person is drugged, asleep, drunk, etc. Those are merely circumstances where a person is incapable of indicating whether they are willing or not, and we should assume that they are not willing.
As long as I’m making disclaimers, I might as well mention that while the word “rape” is commonly used to refer to nonconsensual sex, it is sometimes used to refer to sex between an adult and a minor. In this instance, the minor could be willing, and it would still be considered rape. In that instance, you can in fact “rape the willing.”
However, this is not precisely true. The reason usually given for this protection of minors is that they are not old enough to really know whether they are willing or not. The law has decided, essentially, that a minor is never truly willing.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Not true. There are many circumstances where someone can be willing but not give concent.
There are situations where a child, mentally retarded individual, or intoxicated individual can clearly be willing but there is no way that any of those people could give consent.
You absolutely can "rape the willing" if the willing is unable to consent.
Written by: Patriarch917
Consent, or lack thereof, is an indication of whether you are willing or unwilling. If you consent to have sex, you have indicated that you are “willing” to have sex.
Not true. There are many circumstances where someone can be willing but not give concent.
There are situations where a child, mentally retarded individual, or intoxicated individual can clearly be willing but there is no way that any of those people could give consent.
You absolutely can "rape the willing" if the willing is unable to consent.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Patriarch917, I know you don’t sanction rape, so I don’t understand why you support the myth that you “cannot rape the willing”. You seem to have missed an important lesson in life. When you repeat disempowering statements like “you cannot rape the willing” you are actually justifying rape by lying to yourself.
How so? Like, when I was a kid I had friends who used to steal from shops. Now, they knew it was against the law to steal, but they would lie to themselves to justify stealing by saying something like “I know it's not ok to steal, except form big Department stores because they are rich and have insurance.”
Got it?
Patriarch917, I know you don’t sanction rape, so I don’t understand why you support the myth that you “cannot rape the willing”. You seem to have missed an important lesson in life. When you repeat disempowering statements like “you cannot rape the willing” you are actually justifying rape by lying to yourself.
How so? Like, when I was a kid I had friends who used to steal from shops. Now, they knew it was against the law to steal, but they would lie to themselves to justify stealing by saying something like “I know it's not ok to steal, except form big Department stores because they are rich and have insurance.”
Got it?
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
@ NYC
I said:
“If you consent, . . . you are willing.
You said:
“someone can be willing but not give concent.”
The two do not contradict.
It is as if I said
“if it is a square, then it is a rectangle”
and you said
“something can be a square but not be a rectangle.”
@ Stone
The statement “you cannot rape someone who is willing” is not a myth, but is an accurate and logical statement so long as the word “rape” means “sex with someone who is unwilling.”
This is what many people mean when they say the word “rape.” What do you mean when you say it?
If you define rape to mean “sex with someone other than your wife” then I would agree, it does not matter whether there is willingness or not. If you define rape to mean “sex with someone who is under the age of 13” then I would again agree, it does not matter whether there is willingness or not.
However, when you define rape to mean “sex with someone who is not willing” then it is undeniably true that if they are willing, it must not be rape.
Saying “you cannot rape the willing” is not like saying “it is ok to steal from the rich.” It is like saying “you cannot steal a gift.”
@ NYC
I said:
“If you consent, . . . you are willing.
You said:
“someone can be willing but not give concent.”
The two do not contradict.
It is as if I said
“if it is a square, then it is a rectangle”
and you said
“something can be a square but not be a rectangle.”
@ Stone
Written by: Stone
Patriarch917, I know you don’t sanction rape, so I don’t understand why you support the myth that you “cannot rape the willing”. You seem to have missed an important lesson in life. When you repeat disempowering statements like “you cannot rape the willing” you are actually justifying rape by lying to yourself.
How so? Like, when I was a kid I had friends who used to steal from shops. Now, they knew it was against the law to steal, but they would lie to themselves to justify stealing by saying something like “I know it's not ok to steal, except form big Department stores because they are rich and have insurance.”
Got it?
The statement “you cannot rape someone who is willing” is not a myth, but is an accurate and logical statement so long as the word “rape” means “sex with someone who is unwilling.”
This is what many people mean when they say the word “rape.” What do you mean when you say it?
If you define rape to mean “sex with someone other than your wife” then I would agree, it does not matter whether there is willingness or not. If you define rape to mean “sex with someone who is under the age of 13” then I would again agree, it does not matter whether there is willingness or not.
However, when you define rape to mean “sex with someone who is not willing” then it is undeniably true that if they are willing, it must not be rape.
Saying “you cannot rape the willing” is not like saying “it is ok to steal from the rich.” It is like saying “you cannot steal a gift.”
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Yeah well Patriarch917, perhaps it’s not a logical statement, and literal interpretations miss the intent.
I can’t think of the correct words to describe the phrase, as oxymoron, paradox and satire don’t seem to work. Call it a figure of speech if you like. Whatever, the common usage and intent of the phrase is to set up the victim up to take the blame for the assault, as outlined in an earlier post. If you don't get that, then you are lying to yourself.
Yeah well Patriarch917, perhaps it’s not a logical statement, and literal interpretations miss the intent.
I can’t think of the correct words to describe the phrase, as oxymoron, paradox and satire don’t seem to work. Call it a figure of speech if you like. Whatever, the common usage and intent of the phrase is to set up the victim up to take the blame for the assault, as outlined in an earlier post. If you don't get that, then you are lying to yourself.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
I think me and Ade may have this issue settled. Apparently, to Ade the phrase seemed to suggest "it is not rape if they appear willing," while to me it suggested "it is not rape if they are actually willing."
Perhaps we can agree that if you take the phrase in a literal way, assuming that the word "willing" means "actually willing" and not "apparently willing" then it is clearly correct.
However, if the phrase intends to suggest that if a victim "appears willing," but is not actually willing, then it might still be rape.
This would seem to satisfy everyone. However, you still won't say what you think the word "rape" means... so I can never be sure. If "rape" means "having sex with someone other than your spouse" then whether they are actually willing or merely appear willing doesn't matter.
In the context of this thread, I believe Violent Tame was suggesting that the Iraqi people were actually willing to participate in a democracy, and that therefore it was not wrong to give them one.
However, I would agree that if they only appeared to be willing to vote, but were actually just pretending, then maybe it was wrong.
Perhaps the meaning of the phrase should be left to the one who first said it. Let him define whether he meant "actually willing" or "not willing, but appearing so."
I think me and Ade may have this issue settled. Apparently, to Ade the phrase seemed to suggest "it is not rape if they appear willing," while to me it suggested "it is not rape if they are actually willing."
Perhaps we can agree that if you take the phrase in a literal way, assuming that the word "willing" means "actually willing" and not "apparently willing" then it is clearly correct.
However, if the phrase intends to suggest that if a victim "appears willing," but is not actually willing, then it might still be rape.
This would seem to satisfy everyone. However, you still won't say what you think the word "rape" means... so I can never be sure. If "rape" means "having sex with someone other than your spouse" then whether they are actually willing or merely appear willing doesn't matter.
In the context of this thread, I believe Violent Tame was suggesting that the Iraqi people were actually willing to participate in a democracy, and that therefore it was not wrong to give them one.
However, I would agree that if they only appeared to be willing to vote, but were actually just pretending, then maybe it was wrong.
Perhaps the meaning of the phrase should be left to the one who first said it. Let him define whether he meant "actually willing" or "not willing, but appearing so."
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coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
now we're back on topic
yes, but i dont recall there being a vote to see if the neccissary majority of people wanted a democracy or not, therefore i'd have to say that it was forced on them (iraq was raped into democracy, if you like)
*note this may not be your view patriarch, but you were the last to write it so i quoted you.
now we're back on topic
Written by: Patriarch917
In the context of this thread, I believe Violent Tame was suggesting that the Iraqi people were actually willing to participate in a democracy, and that therefore it was not wrong to give them one.
yes, but i dont recall there being a vote to see if the neccissary majority of people wanted a democracy or not, therefore i'd have to say that it was forced on them (iraq was raped into democracy, if you like
)*note this may not be your view patriarch, but you were the last to write it so i quoted you.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
As I recall, Saddam won every Iraqi election with flying colors. Maybe we should reinstate him:
https://www.drudgereportarchives.com/data/2006/06/24/20060624_162800_flash1.htm
As I recall, Saddam won every Iraqi election with flying colors. Maybe we should reinstate him:
https://www.drudgereportarchives.com/data/2006/06/24/20060624_162800_flash1.htm
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
so if you change the meaning of the word so that it means what you what want it to rather than its general usage which includes sex with children, the mentally handicapped et al then your statement makes sense.
if you wish to communicate in a language where words do not mean what they do in English, but instead have their Wayne specific meanings which remain unknown to the rest of the species why post at all???
Written by: Patriarch917
when you define rape to mean “sex with someone who is not willing” then it is undeniably true that if they are willing, it must not be rape.
so if you change the meaning of the word so that it means what you what want it to rather than its general usage which includes sex with children, the mentally handicapped et al then your statement makes sense.
if you wish to communicate in a language where words do not mean what they do in English, but instead have their Wayne specific meanings which remain unknown to the rest of the species why post at all???
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
i fail to see (as regularly seems to happen) whether you're bing sarcastic or not here.
Written by: Patriarch917
As I recall, Saddam won every Iraqi election with flying colors. Maybe we should reinstate him:
https://www.drudgereportarchives.com/data/2006/06/24/20060624_162800_flash1.htm
i fail to see (as regularly seems to happen) whether you're bing sarcastic or not here.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
Saddam won the Iraqi elections on Jan 30th 2005???
The official result was that the Shia United Iraqi Alliance won the election with 47% of the vote. Are you suggesting that this was a massive US engineered election fraud (of which there is historical precedent) to cheat Saddam of his rightful place as leader of the Iraqi people???
Thus the US army does not deserve praise for deposing a popular leader, and holding sham elections to replace him with their puppet of choice???
you're half-truths make me laugh mr...
puppet of choice... Ahmed Chalabi... US instated govenor (despite his history of corruption)... his most recent election result... less that one percent... probably means he is/was less popular than Saddam.
or perhaps Paul Bremmer... another popular Iraqi leader
the current administration on the other hand is at least vaugely representative.
Written by: Patriarch917
As I recall, Saddam won every Iraqi election with flying colors. Maybe we should reinstate him
Saddam won the Iraqi elections on Jan 30th 2005???
The official result was that the Shia United Iraqi Alliance won the election with 47% of the vote. Are you suggesting that this was a massive US engineered election fraud (of which there is historical precedent) to cheat Saddam of his rightful place as leader of the Iraqi people???
Thus the US army does not deserve praise for deposing a popular leader, and holding sham elections to replace him with their puppet of choice???
you're half-truths make me laugh mr...
puppet of choice... Ahmed Chalabi... US instated govenor (despite his history of corruption)... his most recent election result... less that one percent... probably means he is/was less popular than Saddam.
or perhaps Paul Bremmer... another popular Iraqi leader
the current administration on the other hand is at least vaugely representative.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
SILVER Member
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
I make my own people.
607 posts
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Posted:
You claim that I have changed the meaning of the word to give it a meaning other than it’s general usage. You have cited no authority as to what the word is generally used to mean, but I recall that you once endorsed the Oxford English Dictionary as a standard for scholarly work. Perhaps, then, you will accept the Compact Oxford English Dictionary as a guide for a word’s general usage.
The Compact Oxford English Dictionary gives three definitions of the word “rape”:
1. (of a man) force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with him against their will.
2. spoil or destroy (a place).
3. a plant of the cabbage family with bright yellow flowers, especially a variety (oilseed rape) grown for its oil-rich seed.
Now, of these three, I suspected from the context that Violent meant definition number one.
This is not a “Wayne specific meaning which remains unknown to the rest of the species.” If you were unfamiliar with the word, you could merely have looked it up in an English dictionary to find out a likely meaning. I think it is apparent from the context which meaning he intended.
However, I didn’t even depend on that. I explained in my posts exactly which definition of the word I was using. Thus, even if I had invented a Wayne specific meaning, it did not “remain unknown to the rest of the species.”
The question is not “is there a meaning that we can give to the word rape that would make the statement wrong.” If this were our goal, we could assume that Violently Tame meant “a plant of the cabbage family.”
Rather, our goal should be to figure out what he meant by the term, and evaluate the statement in the way it was intended to be understood.
You have agreed that if the word rape means “sex with someone who is not willing” then his statement would make sense. The COED suggests that the word may be used to mean exactly that. Unless you can show that he intended to also mean what is usually called "statutory rape," we will both have to admit that the statement makes sense.
Sorry, I meant the Iraqi elections in which he was a candidate. I don’t know whether he won them all, but in every one that I can recall, Iraqi election officials reported a landslide victory:
https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2331951.stm
The iraqi government insisted the count was fair and accurate, and we called them liars and invaded their country. If they were telling the truth about having no WMDs, then maybe they were also telling the truth about this.
Written by: dreamWritten by: Patriarch917
when you define rape to mean “sex with someone who is not willing” then it is undeniably true that if they are willing, it must not be rape.
so if you change the meaning of the word so that it means what you what want it to rather than its general usage which includes sex with children, the mentally handicapped et al then your statement makes sense.
if you wish to communicate in a language where words do not mean what they do in English, but instead have their Wayne specific meanings which remain unknown to the rest of the species why post at all???
You claim that I have changed the meaning of the word to give it a meaning other than it’s general usage. You have cited no authority as to what the word is generally used to mean, but I recall that you once endorsed the Oxford English Dictionary as a standard for scholarly work. Perhaps, then, you will accept the Compact Oxford English Dictionary as a guide for a word’s general usage.
The Compact Oxford English Dictionary gives three definitions of the word “rape”:
1. (of a man) force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with him against their will.
2. spoil or destroy (a place).
3. a plant of the cabbage family with bright yellow flowers, especially a variety (oilseed rape) grown for its oil-rich seed.
Now, of these three, I suspected from the context that Violent meant definition number one.
This is not a “Wayne specific meaning which remains unknown to the rest of the species.” If you were unfamiliar with the word, you could merely have looked it up in an English dictionary to find out a likely meaning. I think it is apparent from the context which meaning he intended.
However, I didn’t even depend on that. I explained in my posts exactly which definition of the word I was using. Thus, even if I had invented a Wayne specific meaning, it did not “remain unknown to the rest of the species.”
The question is not “is there a meaning that we can give to the word rape that would make the statement wrong.” If this were our goal, we could assume that Violently Tame meant “a plant of the cabbage family.”
Rather, our goal should be to figure out what he meant by the term, and evaluate the statement in the way it was intended to be understood.
You have agreed that if the word rape means “sex with someone who is not willing” then his statement would make sense. The COED suggests that the word may be used to mean exactly that. Unless you can show that he intended to also mean what is usually called "statutory rape," we will both have to admit that the statement makes sense.
Written by: dreamWritten by: Patriarch917
As I recall, Saddam won every Iraqi election with flying colors. Maybe we should reinstate him
Saddam won the Iraqi elections on Jan 30th 2005???
Sorry, I meant the Iraqi elections in which he was a candidate. I don’t know whether he won them all, but in every one that I can recall, Iraqi election officials reported a landslide victory:
https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2331951.stm
The iraqi government insisted the count was fair and accurate, and we called them liars and invaded their country. If they were telling the truth about having no WMDs, then maybe they were also telling the truth about this.
SILVER Member
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Your Face!
1,173 posts
Location: el paso, tx, USA
Posted:
What I was basicly trying to say is that they couldn't have been forced into a democracy. Besides, If they where, the U.N. would be wearing bush's arse like a hat right about now.
Written by: Mr Majestik
yes, but i dont recall there being a vote to see if the neccissary majority of people wanted a democracy or not, therefore i'd have to say that it was forced on them (iraq was raped into democracy, if you like
What I was basicly trying to say is that they couldn't have been forced into a democracy. Besides, If they where, the U.N. would be wearing bush's arse like a hat right about now.
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
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