Forums > Social Discussion > Acupunture
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Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
Ok a lot of you dont know but I have been suffering horrible postnatal depression, and to help to alliaviate the symptoms Phaerie kindly offered some aucpunture. I must admit I was a bit nervous about how much it would hurt and the type of reaction I may have to it, but I am here to say if you have never had it you should TRY it.
I floated out of Phaeries treatment room. She was damn good at what she does and I can quite honestly say that I haven't felt as light and relaxed and free as I did this morning in a very very long time.
I found it easier to breathe, that tight ball of anxiety was gone, I felt chirpy and I even sung at the top of my lungs on the way home.
I felt my panic ebb away and can honestly say that the pins didnt even hurt! I didnt feel them go in, I felt a wee bit of tingling where the pins were placed but that was it.
amazing! Totally mindblowing experience.
Phaerie, you were born to be a healer beautiful girl. Heres me blabbering away as Im feeling all this tension leave my body and you took it all in your stride.
anyone here have acupunture? how did you find it? how did it work for you?
Ok a lot of you dont know but I have been suffering horrible postnatal depression, and to help to alliaviate the symptoms Phaerie kindly offered some aucpunture. I must admit I was a bit nervous about how much it would hurt and the type of reaction I may have to it, but I am here to say if you have never had it you should TRY it.
I floated out of Phaeries treatment room. She was damn good at what she does and I can quite honestly say that I haven't felt as light and relaxed and free as I did this morning in a very very long time.
I found it easier to breathe, that tight ball of anxiety was gone, I felt chirpy and I even sung at the top of my lungs on the way home.
I felt my panic ebb away and can honestly say that the pins didnt even hurt! I didnt feel them go in, I felt a wee bit of tingling where the pins were placed but that was it.
amazing! Totally mindblowing experience.
Phaerie, you were born to be a healer beautiful girl. Heres me blabbering away as Im feeling all this tension leave my body and you took it all in your stride.
anyone here have acupunture? how did you find it? how did it work for you?
TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"
SILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
I would love that greensox! Im sure that Phaerie would be a good resource as well!~!
I would love that greensox! Im sure that Phaerie would be a good resource as well!~!
TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"
BRONZE Member
newbie
21 posts
Location: Northants, England
newbie
21 posts
Location: Northants, England
Posted:
Awh Thanks, Ill stick this thread in my faves so I can come back to it,
Awh Thanks, Ill stick this thread in my faves so I can come back to it,
Feel good saying of the week :
*Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission*
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,240 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
veteran
1,240 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
more than happy to give more info about stuph if you need it greensox
more than happy to give more info about stuph if you need it greensox
Only when you close your eyes can you really see...
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Accupuncture is a problem when it comes to studies.
How do you do a control?
Accupuncture is a problem when it comes to studies.
How do you do a control?
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA
Posted:
Um, surely you would do a control the same way as with everything else, wouldn't you? One group receives acupuncture, the other doesn't. Oh, I suppose you meant you couldn't use a placebo. I'd heard somewhere (there's a reliable source for ya, "somewhere") that there is a way of putting in the needles so they don't really go in. This sounds a little dodgy to me, I'd think I'd be able to tell whether or not I had three inch needles sticking in me, but I suppose it doesn't sound any dodgier than acupuncture itself.
Um, surely you would do a control the same way as with everything else, wouldn't you? One group receives acupuncture, the other doesn't. Oh, I suppose you meant you couldn't use a placebo. I'd heard somewhere (there's a reliable source for ya, "somewhere") that there is a way of putting in the needles so they don't really go in. This sounds a little dodgy to me, I'd think I'd be able to tell whether or not I had three inch needles sticking in me, but I suppose it doesn't sound any dodgier than acupuncture itself.
-James
"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I'd like to see some sort of placebo, but it's probably just not doable.
I'd like to see some sort of placebo, but it's probably just not doable.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Dreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
could you do acupuncture when people were under anesthisia? I know that sounds really weird, but it solves the control problem assuming it still works....
could you do acupuncture when people were under anesthisia? I know that sounds really weird, but it solves the control problem assuming it still works....
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
er, how about:
One group is given acupuncture
The other has needles stuck in random points on the body?
or, test on animals.
er, how about:
One group is given acupuncture
The other has needles stuck in random points on the body?
or, test on animals.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,240 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
veteran
1,240 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
this is a big problem within acupuncture, mainly
a) because putting needles in anywhere on the body can have some effect (no matter how small)
b) acupuncture is most effective when you have the treatment tailored to you specifically (not having points a, b and c for all patients etc)
c) unable to single blind effectively let along double blind
d) most of the studies that are done for acupuncture use VERY inappropriate points for what they are trying to achieve
e) not performed by qualified acupuncturists (dont by physios or GP's)
SO all in all, basicaly what im saying is the majority of research that exists out there for acupuncture is really really bad.
but slowly this is being improved. i think that the way forward in acupuncture research is working on specific points and dealing with them rather than specific conditions. for example there is a point on the leg (st36) which has strong connections with the stomach, when needled it increases the peristalsis and secretion of gastric juices. Needle another point around that area but not right on the point and it will not have that effect on the body. another example of point research would be the point p6 on the wrist. if needled when someone is having a heart attack and that heart is fibrilating it will relax the muscle and reduce the amount of damage done from lack of oxygen.
i think that by going through and doing similar things for all the points, having something that is "scientifically" measurable. whether they understand why its happening or not, they are still able to say, "yes i can see it increases gastric secretions by x%" etc etc
am i making any sense to people who were questioning it?
as for performing studies on people with particular diseases to test the effectiveness of acupuncture, it is VERY hard to have it so it will stand up to scrutiny.
BECAUSE
for acupuncture to be most effective a full history has to be taken and a treatment tailored accordingly. just because you have a headache doesnt mean that you can use a particular point every time for it to work. the head ache might be caused by 10 different things in 10 different people. so point 1 will work for 1 or 2 people but not all 10.
so if someone wanted to treat say asthma with acupuncture for a study, there are a small group of points that may be used for each patient, but in general each treatment will be completely different which makes it very hard to have control and consistancy.
as for blinding, it is not possible to blind the practitioner to the treatment, as if they are qualified and know what they are doing they will be able to look at the points selected and know whether it will be effective in the treatment of whatever condition it is.
as for patient blinding, there is a new needle that they have developed that supposedly doesnt penetrate the skin, but still this isnt that great, as it still stimulates that particular point (in effect turns it from acupuncture to acupressure).
the other option for blinding the patient is choosing "nonpoints" but even this can have an effect on the patient. this is probably the biggest problem within acupuncture research.
acupuncture has actually been used as anesthesia, brain surgery has been performed with nothing to prevent the pain cept acupuncture. it is also an alternative when getting dental work done. i know several people who have had it, and claimed they felt nothing cept a strange sensation when having root canals done.
however, i would suspect that acupuncture wouldnt be as effective if someone was "under". but thats just my opinion, nothing to back that up.
feel like im rambling.
if anyone wants to know more about this PM me. dont want to bore everyone anymore!
this is a big problem within acupuncture, mainly
a) because putting needles in anywhere on the body can have some effect (no matter how small)
b) acupuncture is most effective when you have the treatment tailored to you specifically (not having points a, b and c for all patients etc)
c) unable to single blind effectively let along double blind
d) most of the studies that are done for acupuncture use VERY inappropriate points for what they are trying to achieve
e) not performed by qualified acupuncturists (dont by physios or GP's)
SO all in all, basicaly what im saying is the majority of research that exists out there for acupuncture is really really bad.
but slowly this is being improved. i think that the way forward in acupuncture research is working on specific points and dealing with them rather than specific conditions. for example there is a point on the leg (st36) which has strong connections with the stomach, when needled it increases the peristalsis and secretion of gastric juices. Needle another point around that area but not right on the point and it will not have that effect on the body. another example of point research would be the point p6 on the wrist. if needled when someone is having a heart attack and that heart is fibrilating it will relax the muscle and reduce the amount of damage done from lack of oxygen.
i think that by going through and doing similar things for all the points, having something that is "scientifically" measurable. whether they understand why its happening or not, they are still able to say, "yes i can see it increases gastric secretions by x%" etc etc
am i making any sense to people who were questioning it?
as for performing studies on people with particular diseases to test the effectiveness of acupuncture, it is VERY hard to have it so it will stand up to scrutiny.
BECAUSE
for acupuncture to be most effective a full history has to be taken and a treatment tailored accordingly. just because you have a headache doesnt mean that you can use a particular point every time for it to work. the head ache might be caused by 10 different things in 10 different people. so point 1 will work for 1 or 2 people but not all 10.
so if someone wanted to treat say asthma with acupuncture for a study, there are a small group of points that may be used for each patient, but in general each treatment will be completely different which makes it very hard to have control and consistancy.
as for blinding, it is not possible to blind the practitioner to the treatment, as if they are qualified and know what they are doing they will be able to look at the points selected and know whether it will be effective in the treatment of whatever condition it is.
as for patient blinding, there is a new needle that they have developed that supposedly doesnt penetrate the skin, but still this isnt that great, as it still stimulates that particular point (in effect turns it from acupuncture to acupressure).
the other option for blinding the patient is choosing "nonpoints" but even this can have an effect on the patient. this is probably the biggest problem within acupuncture research.
Written by: Kyrian
could you do acupuncture when people were under anesthisia? I know that sounds really weird, but it solves the control problem assuming it still works....
acupuncture has actually been used as anesthesia, brain surgery has been performed with nothing to prevent the pain cept acupuncture. it is also an alternative when getting dental work done. i know several people who have had it, and claimed they felt nothing cept a strange sensation when having root canals done.
however, i would suspect that acupuncture wouldnt be as effective if someone was "under". but thats just my opinion, nothing to back that up.
feel like im rambling.
if anyone wants to know more about this PM me. dont want to bore everyone anymore!
Only when you close your eyes can you really see...
SILVER Member
no excuses. no apologies.
1,799 posts
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand
no excuses. no apologies.
1,799 posts
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand
Posted:
boring schmoring!
that was wonderfully written.
i understood every word!
yay.
boring schmoring!
that was wonderfully written.
i understood every word!
yay.
those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.
veteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
When you say brain surgery has been done just under acupuncture do you mean the whole procedure? Because the brain itself won't feel any pain as far as I know...
When you say brain surgery has been done just under acupuncture do you mean the whole procedure? Because the brain itself won't feel any pain as far as I know...
"Moo," said the happy cow.
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,240 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
veteran
1,240 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
no, i mean that instead of an injected anaesthesia it was induced by acupuncture.
had to laugh, the definition of anaesthesia on dictionary.com
Total or partial loss of sensation, especially tactile sensibility, induced by disease, injury, acupuncture, or an anesthetic, such as chloroform or nitrous oxide.
go acupuncture :P
EDITED_BY: Phaerie (1127822239)
no, i mean that instead of an injected anaesthesia it was induced by acupuncture.
had to laugh, the definition of anaesthesia on dictionary.com
Total or partial loss of sensation, especially tactile sensibility, induced by disease, injury, acupuncture, or an anesthetic, such as chloroform or nitrous oxide.
go acupuncture :P
EDITED_BY: Phaerie (1127822239)
Only when you close your eyes can you really see...
SILVER Member
no excuses. no apologies.
1,799 posts
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand
no excuses. no apologies.
1,799 posts
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand
Posted:
woo!
one day at school they showed us this video of this western dr being shown around a chinese hospital (where they use both western medicine and tcm (trad. chinese med.) intergratedly.. anyway, there was this one scene where they actually had a lady having brain surgery and she had just one needle in her for the anesthesia, and she was talking to this guy while they were poking and prodding and doing whatever they do to people who have brain surgery...
was pretty cool...
-dances-
woo!
one day at school they showed us this video of this western dr being shown around a chinese hospital (where they use both western medicine and tcm (trad. chinese med.) intergratedly.. anyway, there was this one scene where they actually had a lady having brain surgery and she had just one needle in her for the anesthesia, and she was talking to this guy while they were poking and prodding and doing whatever they do to people who have brain surgery...
was pretty cool...
-dances-
those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.
veteran
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
1,376 posts
Location: London, UK
Posted:
You don't need any anaesthesia for brain surgery, the brain doesn't have any pain receptors.
https://www.hospitalnews.com/modules/magazines/mag.asp?ID=3&IID=57&AID=723
All you'd need anaesthesia for is opening the skull up, which is why I was asking whether acupuncture was used for that...
You don't need any anaesthesia for brain surgery, the brain doesn't have any pain receptors.
https://www.hospitalnews.com/modules/magazines/mag.asp?ID=3&IID=57&AID=723
All you'd need anaesthesia for is opening the skull up, which is why I was asking whether acupuncture was used for that...
"Moo," said the happy cow.
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,240 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
veteran
1,240 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
and yes, that is what the acupuncture was used for.
and yes, that is what the acupuncture was used for.
Only when you close your eyes can you really see...
SILVER Member
no excuses. no apologies.
1,799 posts
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand
no excuses. no apologies.
1,799 posts
Location: aotearoa, New Zealand
Posted:
:P
:P
those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.
GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
Posted:
On aside note, the guy who pioneered a lot of neuroscience by poking at the brain of a conscious individual with eneltric probes and asking what happened, actually underwent the procedure himself. Once the skull has been opened, there is no reason for anesthesia since the brain has no pain receptors.
But it's wierd as hell to see a guy with his head open, and recounting how a certain spot being poked illicited a certain smell / memory or whatever. Very wierd indeed.
On aside note, the guy who pioneered a lot of neuroscience by poking at the brain of a conscious individual with eneltric probes and asking what happened, actually underwent the procedure himself. Once the skull has been opened, there is no reason for anesthesia since the brain has no pain receptors.
But it's wierd as hell to see a guy with his head open, and recounting how a certain spot being poked illicited a certain smell / memory or whatever. Very wierd indeed.
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