Forums > Social Discussion > Religion- a way forward.
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Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I've been looking at a recent thread on religion but I'm not posting there any more as, like virtually every other HOP thread on the issue it's descended into hostility and confrontation.
I thought we might have a go at one where we endevour to stay calm, reasonable and constructive.
So it's appropriate that I recently got a book on buddhism written by the Dalai Lama; primarily becasue it had some nice photos in it.
The interesting thing about this book was that the first thing the Dalai Lama said in his intro was that he believed Buddhism was not the best system for many, that he thought it best that most people focused on the good aspects of their own spiritual tradition/religion.
This is in sharp contrast to the attitude of many religious leaders who seem intent on pushing their own religions to the exclusion of all others.
What he was saying is that all religions have their good points eg stressing the importance of compassion, and how we can focus on working from those, rather than getting sucked into arguments on any negative interpretations.
Whatever we may think about religion, it's here to stay for the forseeable future, way too deeply embedded in the culture of many to be dismissed.
And, while it's true that many believers hold views that are predudiced and hostile, it's equally true that many athiests hold such views.
And, while many religious people are calm, secure and well adjusted individuals; so are many non believers.
ie a persons religious views probably have less relavance to the people they are than is often supposed.
It's ironic that the above mentioned thread in which religion is condemned as being the root of hatred and war, itself becomes a place of hostility and negativity.
I think the way forward is to focus on the common and positive aspects of both religious and none-religious systems.
I think it would be interesting if anyone posting on this thread made it a priority to not post negative stuff; while there's a place for criticism I think that there's loads on other religion based threads that are full of it, and it'd be nice to balance it out a bit with some focusing on positives.
I've been looking at a recent thread on religion but I'm not posting there any more as, like virtually every other HOP thread on the issue it's descended into hostility and confrontation.
I thought we might have a go at one where we endevour to stay calm, reasonable and constructive.
So it's appropriate that I recently got a book on buddhism written by the Dalai Lama; primarily becasue it had some nice photos in it.
The interesting thing about this book was that the first thing the Dalai Lama said in his intro was that he believed Buddhism was not the best system for many, that he thought it best that most people focused on the good aspects of their own spiritual tradition/religion.
This is in sharp contrast to the attitude of many religious leaders who seem intent on pushing their own religions to the exclusion of all others.
What he was saying is that all religions have their good points eg stressing the importance of compassion, and how we can focus on working from those, rather than getting sucked into arguments on any negative interpretations.
Whatever we may think about religion, it's here to stay for the forseeable future, way too deeply embedded in the culture of many to be dismissed.
And, while it's true that many believers hold views that are predudiced and hostile, it's equally true that many athiests hold such views.
And, while many religious people are calm, secure and well adjusted individuals; so are many non believers.
ie a persons religious views probably have less relavance to the people they are than is often supposed.
It's ironic that the above mentioned thread in which religion is condemned as being the root of hatred and war, itself becomes a place of hostility and negativity.
I think the way forward is to focus on the common and positive aspects of both religious and none-religious systems.
I think it would be interesting if anyone posting on this thread made it a priority to not post negative stuff; while there's a place for criticism I think that there's loads on other religion based threads that are full of it, and it'd be nice to balance it out a bit with some focusing on positives.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
member
190 posts
190 posts
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Ok OWD, so are you saying lets bury our heads in the sand, ignore the real world, and pretend that religion is good (even when it's not) the sky is blue and the grass is green. Opiate of the masses type stuff.
As you say, religion is too deeply embedded in the culture of many to be dismissed. Therefore, I don't think turning a blind eye to problems in religion is a solution, or even a way forward for that matter. It only exasperates those problems. For example, when a number of Christian religions ignored paedophilia within their churches, abuse became more entrenched and this led to the suffering of many many people.
My take on the above quote was that people shouldn't expect to find fulfilment just by turning to Buddhism because the felt their religion had failed them, or it was trendy or whatever. It is up to each of us to find our own path, which maybe in a person's tradition/religion or it may not.
Too be quite candid, I can't think of any positive aspects of the religion I was brought up with. For sure, I believed all that compassion stuff when I waz a kid, but in reality I found the whole system waz so hypocritical that I lost my faith.
Ok OWD, so are you saying lets bury our heads in the sand, ignore the real world, and pretend that religion is good (even when it's not) the sky is blue and the grass is green. Opiate of the masses type stuff.
As you say, religion is too deeply embedded in the culture of many to be dismissed. Therefore, I don't think turning a blind eye to problems in religion is a solution, or even a way forward for that matter. It only exasperates those problems. For example, when a number of Christian religions ignored paedophilia within their churches, abuse became more entrenched and this led to the suffering of many many people.
Quote:
Dalai Lama said in his intro was that he believed Buddhism was not the best system for many, that he thought it best that most people focused on the good aspects of their own spiritual tradition/religion.
My take on the above quote was that people shouldn't expect to find fulfilment just by turning to Buddhism because the felt their religion had failed them, or it was trendy or whatever. It is up to each of us to find our own path, which maybe in a person's tradition/religion or it may not.
Too be quite candid, I can't think of any positive aspects of the religion I was brought up with. For sure, I believed all that compassion stuff when I waz a kid, but in reality I found the whole system waz so hypocritical that I lost my faith.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
He's not saying that at all, theres atleast two active threads debating the cons of religion right now. If people want to do that, they have their venue. He's trying to create a venue for discussing the positives, something that is rarely done unless the people involved are discussing their own religion.
Quote:
Ok OWD, so are you saying lets bury our heads in the sand, ignore the real world, and pretend that religion is good (even when it's not) the sky is blue and the grass is green. Opiate of the masses type stuff.
He's not saying that at all, theres atleast two active threads debating the cons of religion right now. If people want to do that, they have their venue. He's trying to create a venue for discussing the positives, something that is rarely done unless the people involved are discussing their own religion.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
No, I'm not saying that.
I'm not suggesting turning a blind eye to that. Just maybe realising that it was a problem within an organisation that claims to represent a religion, rather than a problem within the religion itself.
===============
Some of the positives of these religions is that life is something to be appreciated and valued (which may seem obvious, but many on this world don't fully realise it).
Or that we should respect others as we respect ourselves.
On the other side is the negative interpretations, some examples of which are that we should condemn homosexuals, forcibly convert others to our way of thinking etc.
Facing the proponents of those negative views with hostility and chips on our shoulders, not only is unlikely to make them question their views with objectivity, but will probably just entrench them further.
As far as I'm concerned, if people really want to continue facing hostility and intolerance with more hostility and intolerance, as they seem to do on all HOP threads where religion is mentioned, then they can do so.
I just wanted to suggest an alternative way, one which is based on tolerance and practical positivity.
If people want to rip that approach to shreds then so be it, it's easy enough to do.
There's not a thing in this world that can't be critisised and argued against.
However, given that every HOP thread on religion has gone the easy route of negativity, hostility, chips on shoulders etc, maybe this is a good opportunity try a more challenging approach?
Christianity can be interpreted as being anti gay, it can also be interpreted as being pro tolerant and compassionate. Those two views are not compatible.
I'm suggesting that, rather than getting caught up in a verbal war over the fact that there seems to be an incompatibility there, and wanting to shove that view down the throats of those who aren't yet ready to want to hear it, just focus on the positive view (ie the tolerance).
Quote:
Ok OWD, so are you saying lets bury our heads in the sand, ignore the real world, and pretend that religion is good (even when it's not) the sky is blue and the grass is green. Opiate of the masses type stuff.
No, I'm not saying that.
Quote:
Therefore, I don't think turning a blind eye to problems in religion is a solution, or even a way forward for that matter. It only exasperates those problems. For example, when a number of Christian religions ignored paedophilia within their churches, abuse became more entrenched and this led to the suffering of many many people.
I'm not suggesting turning a blind eye to that. Just maybe realising that it was a problem within an organisation that claims to represent a religion, rather than a problem within the religion itself.
===============
Some of the positives of these religions is that life is something to be appreciated and valued (which may seem obvious, but many on this world don't fully realise it).
Or that we should respect others as we respect ourselves.
On the other side is the negative interpretations, some examples of which are that we should condemn homosexuals, forcibly convert others to our way of thinking etc.
Facing the proponents of those negative views with hostility and chips on our shoulders, not only is unlikely to make them question their views with objectivity, but will probably just entrench them further.
As far as I'm concerned, if people really want to continue facing hostility and intolerance with more hostility and intolerance, as they seem to do on all HOP threads where religion is mentioned, then they can do so.
I just wanted to suggest an alternative way, one which is based on tolerance and practical positivity.
If people want to rip that approach to shreds then so be it, it's easy enough to do.
There's not a thing in this world that can't be critisised and argued against.
However, given that every HOP thread on religion has gone the easy route of negativity, hostility, chips on shoulders etc, maybe this is a good opportunity try a more challenging approach?
Christianity can be interpreted as being anti gay, it can also be interpreted as being pro tolerant and compassionate. Those two views are not compatible.
I'm suggesting that, rather than getting caught up in a verbal war over the fact that there seems to be an incompatibility there, and wanting to shove that view down the throats of those who aren't yet ready to want to hear it, just focus on the positive view (ie the tolerance).
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Cheers robotface, that pretty much sums it up.
I'd just add that it's not just about the positives of religions but also of non religious ways of being.
An example is the empowering realisation that's been mentioned elsewhere of realising that a belief in a god is not necessary to have a life that is meaningful.
i.e. for some, an positive atheistic view of the world can be as profound as that of a religious person.
Quote:
He's not saying that at all, theres atleast two active threads debating the cons of religion right now. If people want to do that, they have their venue. He's trying to create a venue for discussing the positives, something that is rarely done unless the people involved are discussing their own religion.
Cheers robotface, that pretty much sums it up.
I'd just add that it's not just about the positives of religions but also of non religious ways of being.
An example is the empowering realisation that's been mentioned elsewhere of realising that a belief in a god is not necessary to have a life that is meaningful.
i.e. for some, an positive atheistic view of the world can be as profound as that of a religious person.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
SILVER Member
A perth girl gone walkabout...
396 posts
Location: Back home in Perth WA, Australia
A perth girl gone walkabout...
396 posts
Location: Back home in Perth WA, Australia
Posted:
There is also a differnce between faith/belief and the institution that is the church.
There are many good things involved in religion, and many valuable lessons to be learnt, unfortunatly the behaviours of churchs/churchmen and the interpretation of the bible/koran etc by extremist indivduals have given religion a bad name.
Think of the ten commandments, things like do unto others as you would like them to do unto you - In essence, a fabulous concept, its simple and designed to make the world a better place for all with no boundries on who this applies and doesn't apply to...
There is also a differnce between faith/belief and the institution that is the church.
There are many good things involved in religion, and many valuable lessons to be learnt, unfortunatly the behaviours of churchs/churchmen and the interpretation of the bible/koran etc by extremist indivduals have given religion a bad name.
Think of the ten commandments, things like do unto others as you would like them to do unto you - In essence, a fabulous concept, its simple and designed to make the world a better place for all with no boundries on who this applies and doesn't apply to...
I smile because i have no idea whats going on!! 
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
Cheers Dave, nice post!
Looks like the Dalai Lama took the Bruce Lee approach to religion analysis. To me it sounds like he's saying
"whatever background you have focus on the positive not the negative"
I think as a race we would benifit massivly from this, then and only then could the religious and athiests and everyone else in between happily live together. If we were all positive every day we would truly be cosmopolitan and acceptant. Tolerance wouldn't even be have to be a word
& 
to all 
Cheers Dave, nice post!
Looks like the Dalai Lama took the Bruce Lee approach to religion analysis. To me it sounds like he's saying
"whatever background you have focus on the positive not the negative"
I think as a race we would benifit massivly from this, then and only then could the religious and athiests and everyone else in between happily live together. If we were all positive every day we would truly be cosmopolitan and acceptant. Tolerance wouldn't even be have to be a word
& to all Let's relight this forum 
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
sadly this is probably true - but you're right - it's often the system that's the bad bit of religion.
so there were good bits to the religion you were brought up with even if the institution was a bit rubbish - yay!
i used to be a bit of a hardcore christian and after many years i changed my mind and am not even the sllightes bit christian, but i still read the bible because there's some damn good bits in it about being nice to people and having repsect. oh, and the bits about pretty flowers - i like those too.
Quote:
For sure, I believed all that compassion stuff when I waz a kid, but in reality I found the whole system waz so hypocritical that I lost my faith.
sadly this is probably true - but you're right - it's often the system that's the bad bit of religion.
so there were good bits to the religion you were brought up with even if the institution was a bit rubbish - yay!
i used to be a bit of a hardcore christian and after many years i changed my mind and am not even the sllightes bit christian, but i still read the bible because there's some damn good bits in it about being nice to people and having repsect. oh, and the bits about pretty flowers - i like those too.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Thanks, that's a good analogy. And, of course part of the point of what Lee was saying was that it was not just an approach to martial art, but to learning in general, and life.
Quote:
Looks like the Dalai Lama took the Bruce Lee approach to religion analysis. To me it sounds like he's saying
"whatever background you have focus on the positive not the negative"
Thanks, that's a good analogy. And, of course part of the point of what Lee was saying was that it was not just an approach to martial art, but to learning in general, and life.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I know what it's like to despise religion, as a fairly intelligent logical child it was easy for me to spot the flaws and inconsistencies that are rife in modern christianity. I was also aware of the great evils that had been done in the name of religion eg burning alive of women as witches, destruction of primitive tribes by missionaries etc.
Three years of deep thinking during my philosophy degree only strenghened that contempt.
However, my intelligence didn't prevent my life being fairly miserable at times and didn't save me from a two year black hole of near fatal depression just prior to the millenium.
Towards the end of the degree I became more interested in buddhism, and have looked more deeply into it than other religions.
It is of course debatable as to whether buddhism is a religion, due to it's non dependance on a deity/creator; but it is definitly a spiritual system and has much in common with some aspects of religion.
What appealed to me was it's concise and sensible non dogmatic teachings.
Brief examples include the fact that the buddha always denied being anything other than a man, that what he had achieved could be achieved by anyone; in connection with questions about God he neither affirmed nor denied gods existence, simply pointed out that such questions were, at best, irrelevant (to the quest for elimination of suffering), and, at worst, a distraction from the path.
He also stressed that his methods were to be tried, and, if found ineffective, rejected- different individuals have to follow different paths to the goal of peace.
One of the most important things I learnt from buddhism, and Eastern philosophies in general, was that reason on its own is not sufficient to bring release from suffering. It's an easy matter to offer iron clad arguments that show that fear, anxiety etc are not necessary in your life, but those arguments alone will not stop fear and anxiety ariseing.
But such rationalisations are an essential starting point for those who, like me, are fundamentally logical/rational beings; once understood rationally they can, over years be absorbed deep into the essence of your being, till you 'know' with every fibre of your mind and body, that fear, depression and negativity are optional.
And buddhism addresses that need not only with clear and rational teachings to provide a starting point, but, through its emphasis on meditation, the means to absorb that understanding so that it becomes part of the way you percieve life.
Having said all that, I don't think that buddhism is for everyone, and I wouldn't call myself a buddhist.
My debt to buddhism is that it oponed my eyes to the positive aspects of other religions, and, the more I looked past the inconsistencies and my own predudices, the more I saw what was good within them.
I'm glad that I'm intelligent, but it's also a curse- in the West education is universal and advanced, it doesn't stop misery and despair being rife. Despite having fundamentally no problems whatsoever (ie we're not starving, dying of cold etc) suicide in the West far outstrips that of peoples who face death as a daily part of life.
The peasant who responds to tragedy with faith and the knowledge that 'it is Gods will' is not someone who I'm going to criticise on the grounds that his/her notion of God is inconsistent.
Instead I'm going to see it as a fundamental and instictive expression of faith in the belief that the world is fundamentally good and that there comes a point where acceptance is the best defence against despair.
The prayer of serenity: -
'Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.'
it's christian but, to me, it pretty much sums up buddhism as well.
It is one of the positives you can take from religion and, if you fully understand it and live it, its one of the tools that can save you from the misery and despair that we in the west are so prone to.
And let me stress, that positive is equally accessible to the athiest, the buddhist, the christian, the muslim etc.
I know what it's like to despise religion, as a fairly intelligent logical child it was easy for me to spot the flaws and inconsistencies that are rife in modern christianity. I was also aware of the great evils that had been done in the name of religion eg burning alive of women as witches, destruction of primitive tribes by missionaries etc.
Three years of deep thinking during my philosophy degree only strenghened that contempt.
However, my intelligence didn't prevent my life being fairly miserable at times and didn't save me from a two year black hole of near fatal depression just prior to the millenium.
Towards the end of the degree I became more interested in buddhism, and have looked more deeply into it than other religions.
It is of course debatable as to whether buddhism is a religion, due to it's non dependance on a deity/creator; but it is definitly a spiritual system and has much in common with some aspects of religion.
What appealed to me was it's concise and sensible non dogmatic teachings.
Brief examples include the fact that the buddha always denied being anything other than a man, that what he had achieved could be achieved by anyone; in connection with questions about God he neither affirmed nor denied gods existence, simply pointed out that such questions were, at best, irrelevant (to the quest for elimination of suffering), and, at worst, a distraction from the path.
He also stressed that his methods were to be tried, and, if found ineffective, rejected- different individuals have to follow different paths to the goal of peace.
One of the most important things I learnt from buddhism, and Eastern philosophies in general, was that reason on its own is not sufficient to bring release from suffering. It's an easy matter to offer iron clad arguments that show that fear, anxiety etc are not necessary in your life, but those arguments alone will not stop fear and anxiety ariseing.
But such rationalisations are an essential starting point for those who, like me, are fundamentally logical/rational beings; once understood rationally they can, over years be absorbed deep into the essence of your being, till you 'know' with every fibre of your mind and body, that fear, depression and negativity are optional.
And buddhism addresses that need not only with clear and rational teachings to provide a starting point, but, through its emphasis on meditation, the means to absorb that understanding so that it becomes part of the way you percieve life.
Having said all that, I don't think that buddhism is for everyone, and I wouldn't call myself a buddhist.
My debt to buddhism is that it oponed my eyes to the positive aspects of other religions, and, the more I looked past the inconsistencies and my own predudices, the more I saw what was good within them.
I'm glad that I'm intelligent, but it's also a curse- in the West education is universal and advanced, it doesn't stop misery and despair being rife. Despite having fundamentally no problems whatsoever (ie we're not starving, dying of cold etc) suicide in the West far outstrips that of peoples who face death as a daily part of life.
The peasant who responds to tragedy with faith and the knowledge that 'it is Gods will' is not someone who I'm going to criticise on the grounds that his/her notion of God is inconsistent.
Instead I'm going to see it as a fundamental and instictive expression of faith in the belief that the world is fundamentally good and that there comes a point where acceptance is the best defence against despair.
The prayer of serenity: -
'Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.'
it's christian but, to me, it pretty much sums up buddhism as well.
It is one of the positives you can take from religion and, if you fully understand it and live it, its one of the tools that can save you from the misery and despair that we in the west are so prone to.
And let me stress, that positive is equally accessible to the athiest, the buddhist, the christian, the muslim etc.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
It took me awhile to think of a suitable post for this thread, the more I think about positives of religion, the more tempting it is to dismiss them all as obsolete. It's easy for me to say how religion was positive 200 or 800 or 2000 years ago. The old testament told people very practical things like not to eat pork which was very difficult to grow, store, and eat in those times without becomeing very sick. It gave people who may or may not have had a lot of time to think about ethics and morals ethics and morals to follow, and they were commanded to follow. The average ignorant man in those times was probably more inclined to get these lessons from religion and pass them on them from any sort of athiest dedication to learning and knowledge, with reading ability being sparse and all. (sorry for using judaism as my only example, I could have used any religion the same)
But, today very intelligent and informed people still commit themselves to religion. And it's obvious they receive great benefits from it, and through their lives they spread a lot of the benefits to others. Yes, some of them are biggots or they will only help people with strings attached, but that's not the topic of this thread.
It seems to me, some people depending on their background, personality and stage in life are compatible for particular religions and some arent, and some are prone to be biggots and lofty and pushy with their ideas. Rather their path in life be religious or athiestic. We have seen the ultimate consequences of both religious and athiestic people, in things like the spanish inquisition or in forms of communism.
Religions not obsolete, atleast not for everyone and those who still find it useful aren't sheep
or brainwashed, they simply have a diffrent compatibility. Myself I have lived with and without religion at various times in my life. At times when I 'lost' my religion it was from a lack of faith in anything, and athiesm didn't serve me any better, and at times it was just a diffrent stage in my life.
I think we have advanced quite a bit because these days if a religion doesn't work for you, the world doesn't doom you as being a heathen because other religions and other non religious paths are easily accesible to us.
PS-In this thread im largely using the word religion and spirtuality interchangeably, Probably for the sake of saving my boreing post from being any longer so interput it how you like.
It took me awhile to think of a suitable post for this thread, the more I think about positives of religion, the more tempting it is to dismiss them all as obsolete. It's easy for me to say how religion was positive 200 or 800 or 2000 years ago. The old testament told people very practical things like not to eat pork which was very difficult to grow, store, and eat in those times without becomeing very sick. It gave people who may or may not have had a lot of time to think about ethics and morals ethics and morals to follow, and they were commanded to follow. The average ignorant man in those times was probably more inclined to get these lessons from religion and pass them on them from any sort of athiest dedication to learning and knowledge, with reading ability being sparse and all. (sorry for using judaism as my only example, I could have used any religion the same)
But, today very intelligent and informed people still commit themselves to religion. And it's obvious they receive great benefits from it, and through their lives they spread a lot of the benefits to others. Yes, some of them are biggots or they will only help people with strings attached, but that's not the topic of this thread.
It seems to me, some people depending on their background, personality and stage in life are compatible for particular religions and some arent, and some are prone to be biggots and lofty and pushy with their ideas. Rather their path in life be religious or athiestic. We have seen the ultimate consequences of both religious and athiestic people, in things like the spanish inquisition or in forms of communism.
Religions not obsolete, atleast not for everyone and those who still find it useful aren't sheep
or brainwashed, they simply have a diffrent compatibility. Myself I have lived with and without religion at various times in my life. At times when I 'lost' my religion it was from a lack of faith in anything, and athiesm didn't serve me any better, and at times it was just a diffrent stage in my life.
I think we have advanced quite a bit because these days if a religion doesn't work for you, the world doesn't doom you as being a heathen because other religions and other non religious paths are easily accesible to us.
PS-In this thread im largely using the word religion and spirtuality interchangeably, Probably for the sake of saving my boreing post from being any longer so interput it how you like.
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
Okay One Wheel Dave, I offer you and everyone else a challenge, find me something in the Bible that is a flaw. I am not looking for something that conflicts with your opinoin of life because that is just an opinion not a flaw. Show me your flaws, chapter and verse.
Okay One Wheel Dave, I offer you and everyone else a challenge, find me something in the Bible that is a flaw. I am not looking for something that conflicts with your opinoin of life because that is just an opinion not a flaw. Show me your flaws, chapter and verse.
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
So burzaruka after reading all that (or did you just ignore it all?) at what point did you think it appropriate to make your challenge in this thread? It's perfectly possible for you to make a new thread, so do it or drop your challenge.
Quote:
Onewheeldave said:I've been looking at a recent thread on religion but I'm not posting there any more as, like virtually every other HOP thread on the issue it's descended into hostility and confrontation.......I thought we might have a go at one where we endevour to stay calm, reasonable and constructive.....So it's appropriate that I recently got a book on buddhism written by the Dalai Lama; primarily becasue it had some nice photos in it........I think the way forward is to focus on the common and positive aspects of both religious and none-religious systems......I think it would be interesting if anyone posting on this thread made it a priority to not post negative stuff; while there's a place for criticism I think that there's loads on other religion based threads that are full of it, and it'd be nice to balance it out a bit with some focusing on positives.
Quote:
astar said:He's not saying that at all, theres atleast two active threads debating the cons of religion right now. If people want to do that, they have their venue. He's trying to create a venue for discussing the positives, something that is rarely done unless the people involved are discussing their own religion.
Quote:
Onewheeldave said in response to above quoteCheers robotface, that pretty much sums it up.
So burzaruka after reading all that (or did you just ignore it all?) at what point did you think it appropriate to make your challenge in this thread? It's perfectly possible for you to make a new thread, so do it or drop your challenge.
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
umm, the bit where it says 'thou shalt not kill', then goes on to say how some little dude threw a rock at a big dude, killed him, and went on to become king. cant remember the verses, tho, or the chapters.
umm, the bit where it says 'thou shalt not kill', then goes on to say how some little dude threw a rock at a big dude, killed him, and went on to become king. cant remember the verses, tho, or the chapters.
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
Sponge
883 posts
Location: Stevenage
883 posts
Location: Stevenage
Posted:
D'ya mean the Goliath story thing? and the sling shot? or am i totally wrong and mixed up
D'ya mean the Goliath story thing? and the sling shot? or am i totally wrong and mixed up
Monkeys monkeys and bananas
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
[Old link]
[Old link]
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
yes, yes i did. david, the young, small kid/d00d guy, and goliath, the big, nasty, ugly, smelly one. david slays goliath using aforementioned slingshot, and becomes national hero, king etc etc.
Is that story also a good comparison between technical might, and how that beats pure strength?
yes, yes i did. david, the young, small kid/d00d guy, and goliath, the big, nasty, ugly, smelly one. david slays goliath using aforementioned slingshot, and becomes national hero, king etc etc.
Is that story also a good comparison between technical might, and how that beats pure strength?
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Thanks robotface, for respecting what this thread is about and for creating a new thread for those who want to continue with the other aspects
Quote:
[Old link]
Thanks robotface, for respecting what this thread is about and for creating a new thread for those who want to continue with the other aspects
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Thanks for the clarification guys, and while I can see where you are coming from, I remain sceptical. Probably because I am yet to see any positive examples of religion in this thread. Well, apart from some universal truths like those found in the ten commandments or the power of positive thinking.
OWD, I accept that a belief in religion helps people put up with oppression and adversity, but this is also a tool that can be used to subjugate unhappy people living poorly. Hence, my opiate of the masses statement. Would we not we be better off if resources were put into reducing poverty, famine and inequality, rather than just saying it's Gods will?
I hope this post is seen as positive discussion, because I would like to see some of these positive aspects of religion. Perhaps robotface you could explain some of the benefits people get from religion, when you said
I would also like to point out that the bible is not a religion, rather it is a collection of books used by a number of religions.
Thanks for the clarification guys, and while I can see where you are coming from, I remain sceptical. Probably because I am yet to see any positive examples of religion in this thread. Well, apart from some universal truths like those found in the ten commandments or the power of positive thinking.
OWD, I accept that a belief in religion helps people put up with oppression and adversity, but this is also a tool that can be used to subjugate unhappy people living poorly. Hence, my opiate of the masses statement. Would we not we be better off if resources were put into reducing poverty, famine and inequality, rather than just saying it's Gods will?
I hope this post is seen as positive discussion, because I would like to see some of these positive aspects of religion. Perhaps robotface you could explain some of the benefits people get from religion, when you said
Quote:
But, today very intelligent and informed people still commit themselves to religion. And it's obvious they receive great benefits from it, and through their lives they spread a lot of the benefits to others.
I would also like to point out that the bible is not a religion, rather it is a collection of books used by a number of religions.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Well it's not negative in the sense that you're not being aggressive; but it's certainly not a post in the spirit of what 's intended in this thread because you're basically arguing against the 'positives of religion'.
I myself mentioned some positive aspects in a detailed previous post, one of which concerns the 'prayer of serenity' and the value of acceptance.
Your point about putting resources into action is obviously a good one, but when I'm talking about the value of acceptance I'm not refering to putting up with oppression, but rather accepting that which we can't change.
Examples being the fact that we will all, at some point, die; that all of us will, at some point experience pain, illness and loss. Medicine etc can alleviate, but there will always be things in this world that are unavoidable.
Like I said above, this is off topic, I will discuss it but in another thread if you want to start one.
Lastly, and in anticipation of someone inevitably pointing this out- I'm fully aware that any positive aspects of religion are, in a sense, independant of that religion.
For example, the insight contained in the prayer of serenity can be expressed in athiest terms, in fact the example of it I gave above makes no reference to any deity.
--------------------
It's been clearly requested in the first post that this thread is about the positive aspects of religion, not about arguing.
Arguing is easy, it's happened in every previous HOP thread on religion.
The challenge here is not to argue, to stay on topic.
If anyone wants to argue or critisise religion then a search using 'religion' will turn up many threads that you can contribute to, alternatively it's very easy to create your own thread.
If you really want to ignore the intended point of this thread, if you really want it to go the way of the rest, then there's nothing I can do to stop you.
But please don't do it under the guise of 'debate'- critisism of religion, however reasonably stated is clearly off topic here.
Whilst I fully realise that only a minority of people here are interested in contributing sincerely to such a thread, surely that small number are entitled to be allowed such a place without it being hijacked?
Quote:
....I remain sceptical. Probably because I am yet to see any positive examples of religion in this thread. Well, apart from some universal truths like those found in the ten commandments or the power of positive thinking....
OWD, I accept that a belief in religion helps people put up with oppression and adversity, but this is also a tool that can be used to subjugate unhappy people living poorly. Hence, my opiate of the masses statement. Would we not we be better off if resources were put into reducing poverty, famine and inequality, rather than just saying it's Gods will?
I hope this post is seen as positive discussion.....
Well it's not negative in the sense that you're not being aggressive; but it's certainly not a post in the spirit of what 's intended in this thread because you're basically arguing against the 'positives of religion'.
I myself mentioned some positive aspects in a detailed previous post, one of which concerns the 'prayer of serenity' and the value of acceptance.
Your point about putting resources into action is obviously a good one, but when I'm talking about the value of acceptance I'm not refering to putting up with oppression, but rather accepting that which we can't change.
Examples being the fact that we will all, at some point, die; that all of us will, at some point experience pain, illness and loss. Medicine etc can alleviate, but there will always be things in this world that are unavoidable.
Like I said above, this is off topic, I will discuss it but in another thread if you want to start one.
Lastly, and in anticipation of someone inevitably pointing this out- I'm fully aware that any positive aspects of religion are, in a sense, independant of that religion.
For example, the insight contained in the prayer of serenity can be expressed in athiest terms, in fact the example of it I gave above makes no reference to any deity.
--------------------
It's been clearly requested in the first post that this thread is about the positive aspects of religion, not about arguing.
Arguing is easy, it's happened in every previous HOP thread on religion.
The challenge here is not to argue, to stay on topic.
If anyone wants to argue or critisise religion then a search using 'religion' will turn up many threads that you can contribute to, alternatively it's very easy to create your own thread.
If you really want to ignore the intended point of this thread, if you really want it to go the way of the rest, then there's nothing I can do to stop you.
But please don't do it under the guise of 'debate'- critisism of religion, however reasonably stated is clearly off topic here.
Whilst I fully realise that only a minority of people here are interested in contributing sincerely to such a thread, surely that small number are entitled to be allowed such a place without it being hijacked?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
I decided to put my reply in the bible flaws thread, which I guess now will be two simoultaneous debates.
EDITED_BY: robotface (1085196049)
I decided to put my reply in the bible flaws thread, which I guess now will be two simoultaneous debates.
EDITED_BY: robotface (1085196049)
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Sorry if the above seemed harsh, I realise that you presented it non-aggressively.
And your points are good, they just don't relate to what this thread is intended to be about; I seriously suggest that you do kick off a new thread because, like I said, they are good points.
Debate is good, but what ever I say to what you say is just going to go into endless back and forth circles, like all the other religion threads.
This thread really is an attempt at something different, maybe it is doomed to failure, but the best way to find out is surely to give it a chance and see what happens.
I personally would rather it gets no replies and sinks without trace than end up like all the other religion threads.
Quote:
I hope this post is seen as positive discussion, ...
Sorry if the above seemed harsh, I realise that you presented it non-aggressively.
And your points are good, they just don't relate to what this thread is intended to be about; I seriously suggest that you do kick off a new thread because, like I said, they are good points.
Debate is good, but what ever I say to what you say is just going to go into endless back and forth circles, like all the other religion threads.
This thread really is an attempt at something different, maybe it is doomed to failure, but the best way to find out is surely to give it a chance and see what happens.
I personally would rather it gets no replies and sinks without trace than end up like all the other religion threads.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
OWD I am sorry for the attempted highjacking... I should have read your post better instead of just reacting to what little I did see. Thankyou to Robotface for starting the other thread.
Cheeers.
OWD I am sorry for the attempted highjacking... I should have read your post better instead of just reacting to what little I did see. Thankyou to Robotface for starting the other thread.
Cheeers.
resident fridge magnet
835 posts
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands
835 posts
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands
Posted:
Hi Dave, I'm not a believer but I really liked something I found on various religions and posted [Old link]
not sure if this is exactly the kind of thing you'd like to see in this thread, but if we're looking to find a counterbalance to all the "religion causes war" threads, you could look
here
peace,
Nephtys
Hi Dave, I'm not a believer but I really liked something I found on various religions and posted [Old link]
not sure if this is exactly the kind of thing you'd like to see in this thread, but if we're looking to find a counterbalance to all the "religion causes war" threads, you could look
here
peace,
Nephtys
everyone's unique except me
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Cheers.
The 'Golden Rule' thread is exactly the kind of stuff I had in mind. It also prompts me to retract my previous statement that all HOP threads on religion descend into chaos.
Cheers.
The 'Golden Rule' thread is exactly the kind of stuff I had in mind. It also prompts me to retract my previous statement that all HOP threads on religion descend into chaos.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Thanks Burzaruka
Thanks Burzaruka
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
yup - definitely agree with many of your points OWD. t
it covers an core set of morals/opiniions i have on the entire concept of religion, that both my fundamentalist christians AND atheist engineering nerd friends both find difficult to grasp.
the idea of a function of religion from an anthropological perspective.
with my flatmates- their belief is that christianity & the bible have survived because it is right! they dont look at how religious communities and the individuals with them can faciliate the surival of a religion, and how over time the needs, perceptions of god, and context of the beliefs will change over time.
with my nerd friends - they cannot see how the sense of community that a religion creates can be beneficial.
ill follow this line of thought first....
note, theres infinite directions this though could go, so ill go down only one path at the moment. explore other tangents later
lets consider the experience of my sister. she went through all the trials and tribulations of being a teenage girl- crisis after crisis of dickhead boyfriends, pimples, confidence, having friends etc. so when she started attending the youth groups functions at the local baptist church - she was suddenly in this community were people were actually nice to each other! it didnt matter how she dressed, how she looked. she could be herself, and have the guarantee of emotional support.
another case study...
i drifted apart from my best freinds from primary school - but recently went to his wedding. his entire family are devout christians, but all very intelligent, open minded, caring, and compassionate. the entire family of 7 are the most wonderfully well adjust souls. his wedding was the closest thing to a church service that ive been to in a while.
what struck me was the incredible community they were in. everyone greeted all with a hug - none of this homophobic
. the entire day was just fantastic because you could see how supportive this community had been for everyone involved. if you had anything at all you needed help on- there was alway someone to listen and talk to.
my friend and his wife can go out into the big scary world, and know how much care and love their church communty has for them.
and then theres just the feeling of being in the church at the ceremony. ill have to admit - with one of the songs - everyone was upstanding, hands in the air [apart myself and mum....] singing their hearts out. even I felt the adrenaline buzz - but i know thats what it is.... just adrenaline. its not the holy spirit surging through my veins.
but i can understand the perspective of my sister - who went to a church service - was surrounded by caring warm people and a hall filled with passionate choruses echoing the air - i can see why some people NEED that.
to be able to go out in the world, and no matter what you do, having a beliet in something greater, bigger, better, watching over you and loving you 100% no matter what - is a very secure feeling.
its related to a concept called 'the need to believe' which is another anthopological theory floating about in my warped mind - we, as humans need something, albeit a god, a core set of values, a list of thou shalts etc - that we can feel passionate about, that can guide us
if we have a problem - look back on your core set of morals, beliefs, and ethics, and make a decision/choice from that.
in summary 'know thyself'....
if those core principles are not defined [even if one of those beliefs involves NOT defining oneself - which delved into a discussion that will make my brain hurt....]
how will you know what path to walk down?
additionally - if there are many similar souls who have similar morals / ethics etc - a community can start - where you can be yourself, say what you want, and generally everyone else will agree with you. i think thats another area - we have a ' need to believe', but also have a need for love. we need to be able to express love and recieve love [that sounds like a bad barry white song...], feel love etc.
this anthropological concept of a community can faciliate both our need to believe - and our need for love.
HoP is a supportive community that has fulfilled my needs in the past. i hope that i have given back to it the same, if not more, than ive received.
maybe im being too self analytical here.
the problem comes when dealing with people outside that community. if you have this incredible sense of belonging, belief in your values/god, knowledge that other community members will care for and love you - its hard to understand why someone else doesnt want to be in the same community.
the logic circuits simply cannot comprehend not wanting to be involved. my flatmate once said - Ed, i know that deep down inside you, that you believe in a God.
wonderful - i dont know what i believe, but my flatmate does.
however, religion can also exist and perputate itself through fear at the same time. fear of the devil, hell, demons, homosexuals and other horrible thoughts. etc. when observing a religion from the anthropological perspective, its also easy to see how faith is renewed through fear. its like an insurance policy. you could go to hell and burn for all eternity, or buy this product and have eternal happiness.
i have no problem with religion as a whole because i can see the positive value the community has. its when members of the community, and religious institutions in positions of power, with the belief of a moral high ground - focus on the fear & negative ideas.
well - thats my most massive post ever. will probably edit it in an hour when my brain has rested abit.
thanks muchly OWD for starting this.
on an unrelated note, i am now a very happy chappy cos i managed to idle on my uni for 15 seconds
EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1085316496)
yup - definitely agree with many of your points OWD. t
it covers an core set of morals/opiniions i have on the entire concept of religion, that both my fundamentalist christians AND atheist engineering nerd friends both find difficult to grasp.
the idea of a function of religion from an anthropological perspective.
with my flatmates- their belief is that christianity & the bible have survived because it is right! they dont look at how religious communities and the individuals with them can faciliate the surival of a religion, and how over time the needs, perceptions of god, and context of the beliefs will change over time.
with my nerd friends - they cannot see how the sense of community that a religion creates can be beneficial.
ill follow this line of thought first....
note, theres infinite directions this though could go, so ill go down only one path at the moment. explore other tangents later
lets consider the experience of my sister. she went through all the trials and tribulations of being a teenage girl- crisis after crisis of dickhead boyfriends, pimples, confidence, having friends etc. so when she started attending the youth groups functions at the local baptist church - she was suddenly in this community were people were actually nice to each other! it didnt matter how she dressed, how she looked. she could be herself, and have the guarantee of emotional support.
another case study...
i drifted apart from my best freinds from primary school - but recently went to his wedding. his entire family are devout christians, but all very intelligent, open minded, caring, and compassionate. the entire family of 7 are the most wonderfully well adjust souls. his wedding was the closest thing to a church service that ive been to in a while.
what struck me was the incredible community they were in. everyone greeted all with a hug - none of this homophobic
. the entire day was just fantastic because you could see how supportive this community had been for everyone involved. if you had anything at all you needed help on- there was alway someone to listen and talk to.my friend and his wife can go out into the big scary world, and know how much care and love their church communty has for them.
and then theres just the feeling of being in the church at the ceremony. ill have to admit - with one of the songs - everyone was upstanding, hands in the air [apart myself and mum....] singing their hearts out. even I felt the adrenaline buzz - but i know thats what it is.... just adrenaline. its not the holy spirit surging through my veins.
but i can understand the perspective of my sister - who went to a church service - was surrounded by caring warm people and a hall filled with passionate choruses echoing the air - i can see why some people NEED that.
to be able to go out in the world, and no matter what you do, having a beliet in something greater, bigger, better, watching over you and loving you 100% no matter what - is a very secure feeling.
its related to a concept called 'the need to believe' which is another anthopological theory floating about in my warped mind - we, as humans need something, albeit a god, a core set of values, a list of thou shalts etc - that we can feel passionate about, that can guide us
if we have a problem - look back on your core set of morals, beliefs, and ethics, and make a decision/choice from that.
in summary 'know thyself'....
if those core principles are not defined [even if one of those beliefs involves NOT defining oneself - which delved into a discussion that will make my brain hurt....]
how will you know what path to walk down?
additionally - if there are many similar souls who have similar morals / ethics etc - a community can start - where you can be yourself, say what you want, and generally everyone else will agree with you. i think thats another area - we have a ' need to believe', but also have a need for love. we need to be able to express love and recieve love [that sounds like a bad barry white song...], feel love etc.
this anthropological concept of a community can faciliate both our need to believe - and our need for love.
HoP is a supportive community that has fulfilled my needs in the past. i hope that i have given back to it the same, if not more, than ive received.
maybe im being too self analytical here.
the problem comes when dealing with people outside that community. if you have this incredible sense of belonging, belief in your values/god, knowledge that other community members will care for and love you - its hard to understand why someone else doesnt want to be in the same community.
the logic circuits simply cannot comprehend not wanting to be involved. my flatmate once said - Ed, i know that deep down inside you, that you believe in a God.
wonderful - i dont know what i believe, but my flatmate does.
however, religion can also exist and perputate itself through fear at the same time. fear of the devil, hell, demons, homosexuals and other horrible thoughts. etc. when observing a religion from the anthropological perspective, its also easy to see how faith is renewed through fear. its like an insurance policy. you could go to hell and burn for all eternity, or buy this product and have eternal happiness.
i have no problem with religion as a whole because i can see the positive value the community has. its when members of the community, and religious institutions in positions of power, with the belief of a moral high ground - focus on the fear & negative ideas.
well - thats my most massive post ever. will probably edit it in an hour when my brain has rested abit.
thanks muchly OWD for starting this.
on an unrelated note, i am now a very happy chappy cos i managed to idle on my uni for 15 seconds
EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1085316496)
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
BRONZE Member
member
56 posts
Location: USA
member
56 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
i think something positive is that many churches,and many religions have youth activities that i feel keep our children off the streets also many churches help a lot of people why are less fortunate. on the other hand many schools and organizations do the same. i think no matter where these services come from be it church, school or elsewhere they are a good thing to be involved in.
i think something positive is that many churches,and many religions have youth activities that i feel keep our children off the streets also many churches help a lot of people why are less fortunate. on the other hand many schools and organizations do the same. i think no matter where these services come from be it church, school or elsewhere they are a good thing to be involved in.
member
6 posts
Location: London
6 posts
Location: London
Posted:
the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" concept has been mirrored in innumerable world religions, hinduism, buddhism, christianity, bahaiism all speak of the karmic wheel which essentially implies a rebounding of everything you do right back onto yourself.
It's a great concept, and once followed, you start to see spooky refelctions of this in your own life. I'm a pranic healer,and when it was first mentioned i looked at it with some skepticism, but things happen that make you believe otherwise. In a nutshell, you know no harm can come of it, so where's the downside really?
I dont think turning to religion for the answers necessarily works... and i dont advocate fanatic religiosity, but spiritualism is in all of our lives...and it is completely disparate from religion. you can be the most spiritual of them all and associate yourself with no particular religion (ummm..me!).
the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" concept has been mirrored in innumerable world religions, hinduism, buddhism, christianity, bahaiism all speak of the karmic wheel which essentially implies a rebounding of everything you do right back onto yourself.
It's a great concept, and once followed, you start to see spooky refelctions of this in your own life. I'm a pranic healer,and when it was first mentioned i looked at it with some skepticism, but things happen that make you believe otherwise. In a nutshell, you know no harm can come of it, so where's the downside really?
I dont think turning to religion for the answers necessarily works... and i dont advocate fanatic religiosity, but spiritualism is in all of our lives...and it is completely disparate from religion. you can be the most spiritual of them all and associate yourself with no particular religion (ummm..me!).
And you see a girl’s brown body dancing through the turquoise,
And her footprints make you follow where the sky loves the sea.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
HRmmm... i can only really speak for Christianity, which I'm somewhat familiar with.
One of the problems with 'focusing on the positive aspects' of religion is that often times it acts as a coverup for the negative. I was truely surprised at the amount of revenge, rage, violence, hate, rape and murder that prevails the Bible. It's tough to believe "Thou shall not kill" from the same book that carefully expains exactly where, when, and how to kill those that violate the law.
It worries me when we only focus on the positive because the "Love" often acts as a smokescreen for the hate and oppression.
Sorry Dave, I know you've got a beautiful point and I certainly don't want to derail it. Hopefully we can transition back to religions where it's easier to focus on the love.
HRmmm... i can only really speak for Christianity, which I'm somewhat familiar with.
One of the problems with 'focusing on the positive aspects' of religion is that often times it acts as a coverup for the negative. I was truely surprised at the amount of revenge, rage, violence, hate, rape and murder that prevails the Bible. It's tough to believe "Thou shall not kill" from the same book that carefully expains exactly where, when, and how to kill those that violate the law.
It worries me when we only focus on the positive because the "Love" often acts as a smokescreen for the hate and oppression.
Sorry Dave, I know you've got a beautiful point and I certainly don't want to derail it. Hopefully we can transition back to religions where it's easier to focus on the love.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
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