Forums > Social Chat > The Problem with new spinners today...
Login/Join to ParticipateSILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Ive been spinning poi for a good two years now, and I am always more than willing to teach anyone who wants to learn.
Now a bit of background info: Sunbeam, Konsti (troubled badger notjingt to lose) and I (and also another friend) are all at University together.
Here there are many spinners.
The number is growing as well...
however, there is one thing that for some odd reason annoys me (well, not reallys annoys, more like its me being a bit grumpy)
Hyperloops.
I had been spininng for two years before these dumbfounded contraptions of moves were invented.
I learnt the "moves" in poi as most people do (2 beat/ chase, butterfly, corkscrew, 3 beat, 4, 5, etc) and then i learnt hyperloops.
But nowerdays people are wanting to learn Hyperloops straight away.
But I say NO!
My question to you is:
Is my saying NO! justified?
Should people, when learing this Poi malarky, start with easy moves or go straight into hard technicalised stuff?
Is there even a correct order in which to learn spinning?
*mandoratory suck up to not offend anyone coming up*
This post isnt aimed at ANYONE on here and i dont not mean to cause offence. If you dont like what im saying, then print up a t-shirt and tell the world. I dont care.
*mandatory suck up finished*
Ive been spinning poi for a good two years now, and I am always more than willing to teach anyone who wants to learn.
Now a bit of background info: Sunbeam, Konsti (troubled badger notjingt to lose) and I (and also another friend) are all at University together.
Here there are many spinners.
The number is growing as well...
however, there is one thing that for some odd reason annoys me (well, not reallys annoys, more like its me being a bit grumpy)
Hyperloops.
I had been spininng for two years before these dumbfounded contraptions of moves were invented.
I learnt the "moves" in poi as most people do (2 beat/ chase, butterfly, corkscrew, 3 beat, 4, 5, etc) and then i learnt hyperloops.
But nowerdays people are wanting to learn Hyperloops straight away.
But I say NO!
My question to you is:
Is my saying NO! justified?
Should people, when learing this Poi malarky, start with easy moves or go straight into hard technicalised stuff?
Is there even a correct order in which to learn spinning?
*mandoratory suck up to not offend anyone coming up*
This post isnt aimed at ANYONE on here and i dont not mean to cause offence. If you dont like what im saying, then print up a t-shirt and tell the world. I dont care.
*mandatory suck up finished*
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
this is the crux of the whole argument
see the teaching moves thread for full discussion of this point but seeing as this is becoming somewhat of a reduced copy of that thread, i'll reiterate the counter argument for that durbs.
i think dave mentioned this point earlier in this thread and it is that maybe what we see as advanced isn't actually that advanced - it's just we discovered it later.
who is to say that if you teach a beginner hyperloops that they will not understand them?!
is it not possible that they will go off and play with them with the fresh vigour that we had when we were 'inventing' moves based around the 'basics' we were taught?
and as an extra thought, anyone ever wondered what would happen if you taught a beginner that isolated spinning is the basic spin style for poi?
Quote:
But in terms of teaching (not just poi) isn't it better to provide someone with the basics so that they can then go away and learn and develop moves themselves?
this is the crux of the whole argument
see the teaching moves thread for full discussion of this point but seeing as this is becoming somewhat of a reduced copy of that thread, i'll reiterate the counter argument for that durbs.
i think dave mentioned this point earlier in this thread and it is that maybe what we see as advanced isn't actually that advanced - it's just we discovered it later.
who is to say that if you teach a beginner hyperloops that they will not understand them?!
is it not possible that they will go off and play with them with the fresh vigour that we had when we were 'inventing' moves based around the 'basics' we were taught?
and as an extra thought, anyone ever wondered what would happen if you taught a beginner that isolated spinning is the basic spin style for poi?
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
So if the crux is:
is it better to provide someone with the basics so that they can then go away and learn and develop moves themselves, or show them techniques that will interest them so they practice and build their basics without even noticing?
Then isn't the answer pretty obviously:
Both is better than just one or the other. So teach a few moves and a few concepts. Just like everyone i know who teaches spinning already does.
So if the crux is:
is it better to provide someone with the basics so that they can then go away and learn and develop moves themselves, or show them techniques that will interest them so they practice and build their basics without even noticing?
Then isn't the answer pretty obviously:
Both is better than just one or the other. So teach a few moves and a few concepts. Just like everyone i know who teaches spinning already does.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
No I don't think so, not always. One of my housemates plays guitar and he's never had a lesson in his life. He has a perfect ear for music and if you play something to him he can repeat it almost exactly and in an instant. And then play something else to go along with it perfectly. Teachin isn't the bee all and end all, it can obviously help and enlighten in arts such as these but personal development/ability/competance of the student can't be determined by a teacher in accordance with his/her own standards, that just turns the student into a copy of the teacher.
I like Stars idea, teach them lots of moves to take away and think about while they practice all sorts of other stuff, be it the basics or be it advanced stuff. Perhaps understanding a hyperloop will help them continue when they mess up the three beat cuz they might beable to twist out of it!
And don't forget what is basic to you can be mega difficult to others and vise versa.
Quote:Quote:
But in terms of teaching (not just poi) isn't it better to provide someone with the basics so that they can then go away and learn and develop moves themselves?
this is the crux of the whole argument
No I don't think so, not always. One of my housemates plays guitar and he's never had a lesson in his life. He has a perfect ear for music and if you play something to him he can repeat it almost exactly and in an instant. And then play something else to go along with it perfectly. Teachin isn't the bee all and end all, it can obviously help and enlighten in arts such as these but personal development/ability/competance of the student can't be determined by a teacher in accordance with his/her own standards, that just turns the student into a copy of the teacher.
I like Stars idea, teach them lots of moves to take away and think about while they practice all sorts of other stuff, be it the basics or be it advanced stuff. Perhaps understanding a hyperloop will help them continue when they mess up the three beat cuz they might beable to twist out of it!
And don't forget what is basic to you can be mega difficult to others and vise versa.
Let's relight this forum 
veteran
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey
Posted:
Maybe the best approach is teach the newbie what he/she wants to learn, and see what he/she does with this new knowledge. Nobody learns anything as well as when they really want to know it
Maybe the best approach is teach the newbie what he/she wants to learn, and see what he/she does with this new knowledge. Nobody learns anything as well as when they really want to know it
The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.
Always make time to play in the snow.
GOLD Member
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posted:
indeed!
People not only learn at different speeds, but some learn different moves easier than others.
I guess I'd stress good plane control and try teaching them what they want to learn, and go from there....
indeed!
People not only learn at different speeds, but some learn different moves easier than others.
I guess I'd stress good plane control and try teaching them what they want to learn, and go from there....
Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
yes.
probably.
you smart arse
different strokes for different folks i say.
every teacher is different, as is every student.
on a related note, i think this is quite an interesting read.
it is a parent looking for a teacher for their talented child.
they choose not to use a teacher that has proven results and has produced students of world class standards partly because of his attitude and partly because of the style he instills in all his students.
Quote:
Then isn't the answer pretty obviously:
Both is better than just one or the other. So teach a few moves and a few concepts. Just like everyone i know who teaches spinning already does.
yes.
probably.
you smart arse
different strokes for different folks i say.
every teacher is different, as is every student.
on a related note, i think this is quite an interesting read.
it is a parent looking for a teacher for their talented child.
they choose not to use a teacher that has proven results and has produced students of world class standards partly because of his attitude and partly because of the style he instills in all his students.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
i like what bug said.....teaching isn't the be all end all. not everyone in the world is meant to be a teacher. if they were, why would we even NEED teachers? my best friend is one of the most talented spinners i know. and he pretty much taught himself. but he's crap at teaching others. he tried to teach me, and it just didn't work. but it doesn't mean he's not a fantastic spinner. there are some people in the world that you'll teach moves and will never go on to teach the art to others. and that's ok.
as much as i'd love to say people should learn moves in a specific order, i know that's just me wanting to be an elitist of "i learned it this way, so you should too and not get better than me." so i guess in the end, i'd say teach them what they want to learn. i'm sure eventually they'll learn the rest, whether it be "advanced" moves or "basic" moves.
oh, i forgot....i think also, once you know how to do it, no matter how you learned it, when you actually DO trying teaching, you begin to learn better anyhow. i don't know my chords or scales, but when i tried to teach piano to others, i was forced to begin to understand it better.
i like what bug said.....teaching isn't the be all end all. not everyone in the world is meant to be a teacher. if they were, why would we even NEED teachers? my best friend is one of the most talented spinners i know. and he pretty much taught himself. but he's crap at teaching others. he tried to teach me, and it just didn't work. but it doesn't mean he's not a fantastic spinner. there are some people in the world that you'll teach moves and will never go on to teach the art to others. and that's ok.
as much as i'd love to say people should learn moves in a specific order, i know that's just me wanting to be an elitist of "i learned it this way, so you should too and not get better than me." so i guess in the end, i'd say teach them what they want to learn. i'm sure eventually they'll learn the rest, whether it be "advanced" moves or "basic" moves.
oh, i forgot....i think also, once you know how to do it, no matter how you learned it, when you actually DO trying teaching, you begin to learn better anyhow. i don't know my chords or scales, but when i tried to teach piano to others, i was forced to begin to understand it better.
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
put it this way, if someone whos never see one before, and has lousy planes, can be taught to airwrap in 10 mins (as I saw drew and blue do to someone at glasto) then they cant be that hard, they just another reason to practice. shure maybe moving airwraps is harder, but for the basic one you dont actually have to do anything!
T
put it this way, if someone whos never see one before, and has lousy planes, can be taught to airwrap in 10 mins (as I saw drew and blue do to someone at glasto) then they cant be that hard, they just another reason to practice. shure maybe moving airwraps is harder, but for the basic one you dont actually have to do anything!
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
GOLD Member
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posted:
Too true, pounce. I realized this very thing when I taught intro geology labs in Grad School, and again when I helped teach a field course.
You typically have to break things down into their most basic form when you teach, and often, you have to find multiple ways to explain one concept.
It is incredibly rewarding to watch someone go from a look of confusion to a look of "I've GOT IT!"
Quote:
i think also, once you know how to do it, no matter how you learned it, when you actually DO trying teaching, you begin to learn better anyhow. i don't know my chords or scales, but when i tried to teach piano to others, i was forced to begin to understand it better.
Too true, pounce. I realized this very thing when I taught intro geology labs in Grad School, and again when I helped teach a field course.
You typically have to break things down into their most basic form when you teach, and often, you have to find multiple ways to explain one concept.
It is incredibly rewarding to watch someone go from a look of confusion to a look of "I've GOT IT!"
Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
I don't want a title.
940 posts
940 posts
Posted:
I think the key point is that this is supposed to be fun. If you are willing to teach people what they want to learn, they will enjoy it more and will be more interested in practicing and developing their own moves from there. The best teachers are not the ones who go step by step; they're the ones who inspire students to care.
Anyone who really enjoys what they're doing will go back and work on the basics to improve their spinning. But if no one will show them how to do anything else, they're more likely to just get bored and put down their toys.
The more you teach each person, the more they have to build on, which takes the entire field to new heights in the end.
I think the key point is that this is supposed to be fun. If you are willing to teach people what they want to learn, they will enjoy it more and will be more interested in practicing and developing their own moves from there. The best teachers are not the ones who go step by step; they're the ones who inspire students to care.
Anyone who really enjoys what they're doing will go back and work on the basics to improve their spinning. But if no one will show them how to do anything else, they're more likely to just get bored and put down their toys.
The more you teach each person, the more they have to build on, which takes the entire field to new heights in the end.
E pluribus unum, baby.
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
oooh, so well said regyt. i agree. i wanna be like you when i grow up. will you be my teacher? 
oooh, so well said regyt. i agree. i wanna be like you when i grow up. will you be my teacher?
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
BRONZE Member
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Me
607 posts
Location: London/Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
Haven't read all the posts b4 this so don't know if this point's already been made. But me and Jim were trying this 5club juggling thing where every 3 throw you steal a club. Anyway hadn't really got this solid when we started messing about with it and tried stealing every throw which we failed at compleatly at for a few mins. After that we went back to every 3 throws and could do it perfectly (ish). So somtimes it's worth trying somthing completly beond you if only to make you better at the easy stuff.
Haven't read all the posts b4 this so don't know if this point's already been made. But me and Jim were trying this 5club juggling thing where every 3 throw you steal a club. Anyway hadn't really got this solid when we started messing about with it and tried stealing every throw which we failed at compleatly at for a few mins. After that we went back to every 3 throws and could do it perfectly (ish). So somtimes it's worth trying somthing completly beond you if only to make you better at the easy stuff.
Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all C
t
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
i actually can play around with a piece, improvise, "jam" when i want to. in fact, once i got away from the whole idea that i needed to understand the music note by note, i was better at it. some of the greatest musicians in the world don't know how to read music, what the chords or keys are. but they know what sounds right, what feels right. the same can go for poi. you don't have to know the name of the move you are doing to be able to do it right, to know it looks good, to know how it feels to transition to the next move. that's the point you have to get at to get good imo. i can play the piano with my eyes closed, and i tend to do my best when i do because i feel the music and listen to it harder, instead of focusing on what note comes next and what speed i need to change to and what loudness or softness needs to be added. it reminds me of something that was said in the movie Shine (excellent movie btw if you haven't seen it). david's piano teacher tells him to learn the notes first, and then throw them all away and forget about them. the end point is that you need to forget about the specifics. and if you can get there without trudging through the basics, then so be it. you're a better (or perhaps just different) learner than other people.
Quote:
But in terms of teaching (not just poi) isn't it better to provide someone with the basics so that they can then go away and learn and develop moves themselves? What's the point in teaching someone something if they don't know what they're doing.
Can you now listen to a piece of music and play it, improvise round it, teach it? The basics are the building blocks of anything - without them there is no foundation [/cheesy cliché mode]
i actually can play around with a piece, improvise, "jam" when i want to. in fact, once i got away from the whole idea that i needed to understand the music note by note, i was better at it. some of the greatest musicians in the world don't know how to read music, what the chords or keys are. but they know what sounds right, what feels right. the same can go for poi. you don't have to know the name of the move you are doing to be able to do it right, to know it looks good, to know how it feels to transition to the next move. that's the point you have to get at to get good imo. i can play the piano with my eyes closed, and i tend to do my best when i do because i feel the music and listen to it harder, instead of focusing on what note comes next and what speed i need to change to and what loudness or softness needs to be added. it reminds me of something that was said in the movie Shine (excellent movie btw if you haven't seen it). david's piano teacher tells him to learn the notes first, and then throw them all away and forget about them. the end point is that you need to forget about the specifics. and if you can get there without trudging through the basics, then so be it. you're a better (or perhaps just different) learner than other people.
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
HoP resident longboarder.
195 posts
Location: Tasmania, Australia
195 posts
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posted:
in terms of teaching someone techniques, its really a case of look at the (pupil/victim/idiot/next date, etc...) and decide FOR THEM what they need to learn first. EG: i have a friend who wanted to learn some staff techniques and had been doing Jodo (art of the staff) for about 5 years, now i'm not going to insult him by trying to pass off the standard spin, i asked him what he could do and i all i had to do was curb the end grabbing techniques and add a few more 'artsy' style moves as crowd pleasers, he came out with us that night to a beach demo for about 600 scouts, girl guides and shyte and was probably one of the best spinners out of the 20 of us...the other flip side is that same weekend a young female scout wanted to learn stoi (small staff with two poi attached) and we had to start RIGHT from the basics...so really, tailor it to your audience i think...
or maybe i'm just rambling...
u tell me...
in terms of teaching someone techniques, its really a case of look at the (pupil/victim/idiot/next date, etc...) and decide FOR THEM what they need to learn first. EG: i have a friend who wanted to learn some staff techniques and had been doing Jodo (art of the staff) for about 5 years, now i'm not going to insult him by trying to pass off the standard spin, i asked him what he could do and i all i had to do was curb the end grabbing techniques and add a few more 'artsy' style moves as crowd pleasers, he came out with us that night to a beach demo for about 600 scouts, girl guides and shyte and was probably one of the best spinners out of the 20 of us...the other flip side is that same weekend a young female scout wanted to learn stoi (small staff with two poi attached) and we had to start RIGHT from the basics...so really, tailor it to your audience i think...
or maybe i'm just rambling...
u tell me...
"surely a longboarding fire spinner should have no trouble getting some action!"- NYC....
PLATINUM Member
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
Just a small little point I have to make:
Poi is quite obviously expanding at a very rapid rate. New movements are being discovered daily/weekly/whatever, and it's really cool to be able to come on to HOP and learn new things. I think that if we teach people how to do a hyperloop and a 7 beat weave and they do that until they get bored and want to learn more uber technical stuff, that's great, they are having fun and that's what they want to do.
The problem is that that person will never discover new moves by themself. if they can do a bunch of crazy technical stuff but don't have any of the "lesser" moves down, they'll never develope their own style and come up with new found moves like so many on these forums do. I myself am guilty of being a "technical-hungry" person that would learn things, be able to do them sorta-ugly-ish, and go on to something else. I then realized that yeah, I could do a lot of stuff, but none of them looked polished and like I had control. I worked on fluidity for a while, and in the process, came up with a lot of stuff I'd never seen or read about on HOP.
The moral of the story is that creativity lies in a build of abilities, rather than a plateau of the most difficult parts. If we look at poi as something to teach to others so they can do what you can do and nothing more, this will become as static of an artform as most popular sports are - where everyone molds themselves to convention rather than find out what works best for them and improving themselves.
Just a small little point I have to make:
Poi is quite obviously expanding at a very rapid rate. New movements are being discovered daily/weekly/whatever, and it's really cool to be able to come on to HOP and learn new things. I think that if we teach people how to do a hyperloop and a 7 beat weave and they do that until they get bored and want to learn more uber technical stuff, that's great, they are having fun and that's what they want to do.
The problem is that that person will never discover new moves by themself. if they can do a bunch of crazy technical stuff but don't have any of the "lesser" moves down, they'll never develope their own style and come up with new found moves like so many on these forums do. I myself am guilty of being a "technical-hungry" person that would learn things, be able to do them sorta-ugly-ish, and go on to something else. I then realized that yeah, I could do a lot of stuff, but none of them looked polished and like I had control. I worked on fluidity for a while, and in the process, came up with a lot of stuff I'd never seen or read about on HOP.
The moral of the story is that creativity lies in a build of abilities, rather than a plateau of the most difficult parts. If we look at poi as something to teach to others so they can do what you can do and nothing more, this will become as static of an artform as most popular sports are - where everyone molds themselves to convention rather than find out what works best for them and improving themselves.
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
*replying to original post only, not had time to read everything*
no. IMO you are wrong to not teach that just because you consider it to be hard.
someone posted soon after about sth like this: 'whats the point of calling it an advanced move if you can teach it straight away'. well. as tom said an airwrap is pretty basic. easier than (IMO) most thruwraps, the 4 and 5 beat weaves, wrong direction windmills, 2:1 time, most things iin fact.
just because you came at it from another direction you consider it advanced.
but my best advice to you (i hope) is to pretend to study(shouldn't be too hard, you have been practising after all...?) and go and read ALL the teaching moves thread cole posted. and make up your own mind. cause there's a lot of good dicussion in there, and my opinion is i think in a minority.
smiles
R
*replying to original post only, not had time to read everything*
no. IMO you are wrong to not teach that just because you consider it to be hard.
someone posted soon after about sth like this: 'whats the point of calling it an advanced move if you can teach it straight away'. well. as tom said an airwrap is pretty basic. easier than (IMO) most thruwraps, the 4 and 5 beat weaves, wrong direction windmills, 2:1 time, most things iin fact.
just because you came at it from another direction you consider it advanced.
but my best advice to you (i hope) is to pretend to study(shouldn't be too hard, you have been practising after all...?) and go and read ALL the teaching moves thread cole posted. and make up your own mind. cause there's a lot of good dicussion in there, and my opinion is i think in a minority.
smiles
R
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
Hit the nail on the head mate
When I re-inforce the basics before moving onto the advanced stuff I always try to explain what makes a good technique, and I underline the timing/planes issue, as after all a good understanding of this leads to easier comprehension when it comes time for advanced stuff.
I dont think Ive been really impressed by a 'new' spinner who has just picked up all the hard moves quickly, it almost always shows in sloppy technique. The exception being with people who already know the underlying plane/timing theory from learning something else.
Josh
Quote:
As a poi teacher I feel that I have a responsibility to teach theory and philosophy as well as 'moves'. And if you're not willing to buy into that, then go find another teacher.
Hit the nail on the head mate
When I re-inforce the basics before moving onto the advanced stuff I always try to explain what makes a good technique, and I underline the timing/planes issue, as after all a good understanding of this leads to easier comprehension when it comes time for advanced stuff.
I dont think Ive been really impressed by a 'new' spinner who has just picked up all the hard moves quickly, it almost always shows in sloppy technique. The exception being with people who already know the underlying plane/timing theory from learning something else.
Josh
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,750 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
and dont forget, we are just he punk ass spinners to another older generation.
and dont forget, we are just he punk ass spinners to another older generation.
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
ha! i had a rant about this with a friend recently.
my newest move is a kind of butteryfly double suicide neck wrap thingy [think i got the name right?]. some dude came up to me and ONLY wanted to learn that move. i couldnt even persuade him to master the basic butterfly first
idiots. people who want to spin purely so they look cool for their freinds.
ha! i had a rant about this with a friend recently.
my newest move is a kind of butteryfly double suicide neck wrap thingy [think i got the name right?]. some dude came up to me and ONLY wanted to learn that move. i couldnt even persuade him to master the basic butterfly first
idiots. people who want to spin purely so they look cool for their freinds.
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
SILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom
Posted:
right, ive only read through the posts very quickly, and havnt really taken much in and im sorry
but my thoughts on the matter are, i dont think you can make a spinner worse by teaching them something.
so i think if someone asks you teach them something, you should explain how the move works, and then try and teach it to them. even if they dont learn the move, they might learn something on the way, and being shown how to do it, gives people something to aim for.
and dont we all spin to look cool? to a greater or lesser extent? it is a performance art after all.
right, ive only read through the posts very quickly, and havnt really taken much in and im sorry
but my thoughts on the matter are, i dont think you can make a spinner worse by teaching them something.
so i think if someone asks you teach them something, you should explain how the move works, and then try and teach it to them. even if they dont learn the move, they might learn something on the way, and being shown how to do it, gives people something to aim for.
and dont we all spin to look cool? to a greater or lesser extent? it is a performance art after all.
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I replied early on to this thread and have read a fair portion of it, but, like several others, have to apologise for not having seen it all (it's got a bit big).
I do have opinions on the issue of whether learning the 'basics' is essential to mastery of the advanced, especially with regard to the mentioned analogy with music.
i.e. the necessity of loads of scale practise before working on the actual stuff that you're aspiring to play.
I'm a self taught guitarist, partly through books and friends, but mainly through making up my own stuff. I play 'incorrectly' i.e. using my thumb to fret the bottom string, little emphasis on wrist angle etc.
But, on the other hand, i've seen the value of playing certain things in a fixed way that, initially, seems to make things harder, but, in the long run you come to see that it makes sense.
Then again, I'm aware of many people who learnt an instrument at school and, as adults, have no interest in pursuing it because they found the tuition process very dull and unpleasant.
What I'm saying is that neither approach is 100% right or wrong.
Some people can go through the process of structured iron tight training and thrive on it, others have their creative spirit destroyed by it.
Some spinners want to learn the advanced stuff because of greed, wanting to show off etc, and will never learn a beautiful flowing style because they'll soon be looking for a new activity that they can learn flashy bits of to show off with.
Others have an intelligence/talent to be able to assimilate 'advanced' stuff (quotes to remind us that it's debatable whether an advanced move is truly more difficult) in an effective manner early on in their learning.
Lastly, a lot has been said about people learning advanced stuff and having no flow and style. we should remember that however someone learns, whether 'by the book' or not, it's generally a long,long time before they manifest a real ease and flow of style.
Before condeming someones style because they learnt to run before walking, we should look at someone else who learnt things the 'right' way round and ask if they're doing any better?
I replied early on to this thread and have read a fair portion of it, but, like several others, have to apologise for not having seen it all (it's got a bit big).
I do have opinions on the issue of whether learning the 'basics' is essential to mastery of the advanced, especially with regard to the mentioned analogy with music.
i.e. the necessity of loads of scale practise before working on the actual stuff that you're aspiring to play.
I'm a self taught guitarist, partly through books and friends, but mainly through making up my own stuff. I play 'incorrectly' i.e. using my thumb to fret the bottom string, little emphasis on wrist angle etc.
But, on the other hand, i've seen the value of playing certain things in a fixed way that, initially, seems to make things harder, but, in the long run you come to see that it makes sense.
Then again, I'm aware of many people who learnt an instrument at school and, as adults, have no interest in pursuing it because they found the tuition process very dull and unpleasant.
What I'm saying is that neither approach is 100% right or wrong.
Some people can go through the process of structured iron tight training and thrive on it, others have their creative spirit destroyed by it.
Some spinners want to learn the advanced stuff because of greed, wanting to show off etc, and will never learn a beautiful flowing style because they'll soon be looking for a new activity that they can learn flashy bits of to show off with.
Others have an intelligence/talent to be able to assimilate 'advanced' stuff (quotes to remind us that it's debatable whether an advanced move is truly more difficult) in an effective manner early on in their learning.
Lastly, a lot has been said about people learning advanced stuff and having no flow and style. we should remember that however someone learns, whether 'by the book' or not, it's generally a long,long time before they manifest a real ease and flow of style.
Before condeming someones style because they learnt to run before walking, we should look at someone else who learnt things the 'right' way round and ask if they're doing any better?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
this is a really good point. Once i brought a flatmate along with me who's never tought before to a lesson i was doing.
she got really concerned that the learners were behaving lke windmills and kept trying to get them to use their wrists more - a valid point as they were behaving like windmills, but trying to refine their movements only served to confuse them, cause they didn't really know the actual movements yet.
my opinion is that neatness and style are things that you can't teach or learn (i know there's debate on that too, but this is onymy opinion.) the only way most people learn to use their wrists properly is by doing a lot of poi.
this is why when i teach, i generally teach whatever the person wants to learn, but folloing a kind of basic structure (i.e. you can't learn a reverse btb waeve without being able to do it in front of you) however if someone manages to do a more advanced move without first learning the basic one i can hardly tell them they can't do it.
Quote:
we should remember that however someone learns, whether 'by the book' or not, it's generally a long,long time before they manifest a real ease and flow of style.
this is a really good point. Once i brought a flatmate along with me who's never tought before to a lesson i was doing.
she got really concerned that the learners were behaving lke windmills and kept trying to get them to use their wrists more - a valid point as they were behaving like windmills, but trying to refine their movements only served to confuse them, cause they didn't really know the actual movements yet.
my opinion is that neatness and style are things that you can't teach or learn (i know there's debate on that too, but this is onymy opinion.) the only way most people learn to use their wrists properly is by doing a lot of poi.
this is why when i teach, i generally teach whatever the person wants to learn, but folloing a kind of basic structure (i.e. you can't learn a reverse btb waeve without being able to do it in front of you) however if someone manages to do a more advanced move without first learning the basic one i can hardly tell them they can't do it.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
And don't forget that there are plenty of appreciative and respectful newbies as well.
Sometimes I forget that there are knuckleheads, flakes, and flat out jerks in EVERY aspect of life... but when the wander into an area of life that I care about, I sometimes get more offended than if I just see them in passing.
I think the phrase "The problem with new spinners today" is of course, and unfair generalization. Some newbies are fantastic. Some oldies are jerks. Just like every area of life.
And don't forget that there are plenty of appreciative and respectful newbies as well.
Sometimes I forget that there are knuckleheads, flakes, and flat out jerks in EVERY aspect of life... but when the wander into an area of life that I care about, I sometimes get more offended than if I just see them in passing.
I think the phrase "The problem with new spinners today" is of course, and unfair generalization. Some newbies are fantastic. Some oldies are jerks. Just like every area of life.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
lurker
194 posts
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
lurker
194 posts
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posted:
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
true - otherwise why would any of us care so much about how to teach stuff?
i think it's really nice that people on this site care so much about their art (or whatever you want to call it) that they have huge discussions like this about how to make it a good experience - well done everyone!
Non-Https Image Link
*pats on the back all round*
true - otherwise why would any of us care so much about how to teach stuff?
i think it's really nice that people on this site care so much about their art (or whatever you want to call it) that they have huge discussions like this about how to make it a good experience - well done everyone!
Non-Https Image Link
*pats on the back all round*
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
BRONZE Member
lurker
194 posts
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
lurker
194 posts
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posted:
Thank you for linking us to this thread ... a VERY interesting read.
Quote:
good question.
long answer.
[Old link].
Non-Https Image Link
Thank you for linking us to this thread ... a VERY interesting read.
Sponge
883 posts
Location: Stevenage
883 posts
Location: Stevenage
Posted:
Yay please don't forget this! I'm still a newbie learner who darkens everyones day when I don't get something but hyperloops aren't on the top of my learners list, behind the back and through the legs stuff would be good first. BENJA!!!!!! *Runs to find Benja to be taught*
Quote:
And don't forget that there are plenty of appreciative and respectful newbies as well.
Yay please don't forget this! I'm still a newbie learner who darkens everyones day when I don't get something but hyperloops aren't on the top of my learners list, behind the back and through the legs stuff would be good first. BENJA!!!!!! *Runs to find Benja to be taught*
Monkeys monkeys and bananas
SILVER Member
Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
743 posts
Location: South Lake Tahoe, USA
Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
743 posts
Location: South Lake Tahoe, USA
Posted:
Hey man its been almost 7 years now since I was given the gift of my fire poi. Most of You are Newbees!! But I love ya anyway!!!
What can I say, Some learn faster than others, Its not fair, but thats life
Let them learn! Don't let the ego get in your way, Maby one day they will teach you something...
As for the Idiots who just want to jump up from the croud and do a Butterfly neckwrap on fire!! Well thats plain silly. People don't understand that Practice Makes Perfect, and although we make it look easy, it really is NOT! (Well not right away that is)
Hey man its been almost 7 years now since I was given the gift of my fire poi. Most of You are Newbees!! But I love ya anyway!!!
What can I say, Some learn faster than others, Its not fair, but thats life
Let them learn! Don't let the ego get in your way, Maby one day they will teach you something...
As for the Idiots who just want to jump up from the croud and do a Butterfly neckwrap on fire!! Well thats plain silly. People don't understand that Practice Makes Perfect, and although we make it look easy, it really is NOT! (Well not right away that is)
FIRE IS ALIVE!
IT LIVES AND BREATHS!
IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS!
BUT WE CONTROL IT,
AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!
lovable smart-ass
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
785 posts
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
Posted:
OI ucof
i feel that this post is adressed at me. yes im the newbie that skipped everything and went staright to hyperloops. go ahead throw rocks at me.............
ok enough rocks
i opnely admit that the only thing i can do with poi is the 3 beat weave, some alteration of that that i dont know the name of and yes i am getting better at hyperloops (slowly but surely).
i am more of a staff spinner so that is what i spend most of my time practising. im getting better at juggling as well.
i have no time to read the entire thread but i just wanted to confess.
OI ucof
i feel that this post is adressed at me. yes im the newbie that skipped everything and went staright to hyperloops. go ahead throw rocks at me.............
ok enough rocks
i opnely admit that the only thing i can do with poi is the 3 beat weave, some alteration of that that i dont know the name of and yes i am getting better at hyperloops (slowly but surely).
i am more of a staff spinner so that is what i spend most of my time practising. im getting better at juggling as well.
i have no time to read the entire thread but i just wanted to confess.
"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
this is kind of urelated but kind of related... anyway...
this thought i had this weekend when i was trying to learn to juggle (i've been trying for 12 years and i'm 1/2 way to mills mess with 3 balls
)
if you give 2 people a set of poi and teach them a weave, then put them in 2 seperate rooms and tell the to get on with it, they will probably come out with something pretty similar at the end of, say, a week. Prabably along the lines of reverse weave, possibly a windmill or something, you get the idea. if you did the same with juggling balls or a staff (bearing in mind that these people have seen stuff but not learnt before) they will probably come out at the end with completely different stuff. This is what happend to me & john - he ended up throwing under his arms and mixing it with contact, while i was trying to thrpw them over the top and play around with those kind of patterns.
the POInt is, poi isn't necessarily easier to learn, it's just that there's more basic principles to get hold of (weaves, butterfly, wraps, stalls etc.) so the progression is very linear to start with until you get them all, then you can experiment, as opposed to juggling and other stuff where you learn one or maybe 2 basic moves and then there's a whole network of tricks to move on to.
maybe we poi spinners get a bit worrried when someone breaks out of this linear progression, because they haven't yet learnt all the other basics. You never seem to hear juggers telling someone that they can't learn one thing because the haven't learnt another thing first.
just a thought anyway...
this is kind of urelated but kind of related... anyway...
this thought i had this weekend when i was trying to learn to juggle (i've been trying for 12 years and i'm 1/2 way to mills mess with 3 balls
)if you give 2 people a set of poi and teach them a weave, then put them in 2 seperate rooms and tell the to get on with it, they will probably come out with something pretty similar at the end of, say, a week. Prabably along the lines of reverse weave, possibly a windmill or something, you get the idea. if you did the same with juggling balls or a staff (bearing in mind that these people have seen stuff but not learnt before) they will probably come out at the end with completely different stuff. This is what happend to me & john - he ended up throwing under his arms and mixing it with contact, while i was trying to thrpw them over the top and play around with those kind of patterns.
the POInt is, poi isn't necessarily easier to learn, it's just that there's more basic principles to get hold of (weaves, butterfly, wraps, stalls etc.) so the progression is very linear to start with until you get them all, then you can experiment, as opposed to juggling and other stuff where you learn one or maybe 2 basic moves and then there's a whole network of tricks to move on to.
maybe we poi spinners get a bit worrried when someone breaks out of this linear progression, because they haven't yet learnt all the other basics. You never seem to hear juggers telling someone that they can't learn one thing because the haven't learnt another thing first.
just a thought anyway...
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
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