Forums > Social Discussion > USA "no fly list" - sign of totalitarianism!
Login/Join to ParticipateStargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
There is something still SERIOUSLY w.r.o.n.g. with the US of A's...
The secret "no fly list" has originally been set up after 9/11. It not only "contains at least 1 million names as of March 2009" [Wiki] (amongst those of people who are already dead or serve life terms in US jails and are unlikely to ever board a plane [according to informations of CBS]) - it doesn't just stop with "terrorists".
On August 19th Air France NON STOP flight from Paris to Mexico was told NOT to enter US airspace (causing them to divert and thus a delay of one hour and heightened fuel costs for the airline)... because Mr. Paul-Emile Dupret (himself being a Belgium lawyer and member of the left spectrum of the European Union Parliament) has been on board...
He did not even wanted to *land* in the US, he wanted to *cross US airspace 10.000m's above the ground* - and he had NO idea that he was on that list and himself has NO explanation for it. But certainly he is posing a threat to US national security even at this altitude...
And back in April another plane from Air France had to be diverted to the Caribbean and stop over for refuel because the US denied entry to its airspace... aboard Mr. Hernando Calvo Ospina (a journalist from Columbia, heavily criticizing the US politics in Latin America)... (Air France seems to be a bad carrier - *freedom fries*)
Okay, Mr. Yusuf Islam (aka. Cat Stevens) has been on his way to the US... his flight got re-routed to Washington, he's been taken into custody, interrogated and then sent back to London...
Are you really a part of the "western civilized world" - America? Or are you trying to walk this thin red line between totalitarianism, global domination and democracy?
For his return flight, Mr. Dupret meanwhile was told by Air France NOT to book the non-stop flight Mexico-Paris, but to divert...
[/rant]
There is something still SERIOUSLY w.r.o.n.g. with the US of A's...
The secret "no fly list" has originally been set up after 9/11. It not only "contains at least 1 million names as of March 2009" [Wiki] (amongst those of people who are already dead or serve life terms in US jails and are unlikely to ever board a plane [according to informations of CBS]) - it doesn't just stop with "terrorists".
On August 19th Air France NON STOP flight from Paris to Mexico was told NOT to enter US airspace (causing them to divert and thus a delay of one hour and heightened fuel costs for the airline)... because Mr. Paul-Emile Dupret (himself being a Belgium lawyer and member of the left spectrum of the European Union Parliament) has been on board...
He did not even wanted to *land* in the US, he wanted to *cross US airspace 10.000m's above the ground* - and he had NO idea that he was on that list and himself has NO explanation for it. But certainly he is posing a threat to US national security even at this altitude...
And back in April another plane from Air France had to be diverted to the Caribbean and stop over for refuel because the US denied entry to its airspace... aboard Mr. Hernando Calvo Ospina (a journalist from Columbia, heavily criticizing the US politics in Latin America)... (Air France seems to be a bad carrier - *freedom fries*)
Okay, Mr. Yusuf Islam (aka. Cat Stevens) has been on his way to the US... his flight got re-routed to Washington, he's been taken into custody, interrogated and then sent back to London...
Are you really a part of the "western civilized world" - America? Or are you trying to walk this thin red line between totalitarianism, global domination and democracy?
For his return flight, Mr. Dupret meanwhile was told by Air France NOT to book the non-stop flight Mexico-Paris, but to divert...
[/rant]
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
GOLD Member
Nothing but circles and smiles...
118 posts
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Nothing but circles and smiles...
118 posts
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Posted:
heh, my name is on the high caution list... figured this out after getting just about strip searched in every terminal i walked though for about a year... how many people in the us are named joshua anderson?
still gives me a chuckle, some times. now i know i have to go to the airport early... hmmm i never thought about this before, but i wonder how securety would interpret fire poi(unlit ofcoarse) if you were traveling with only a carry on bag. any one run into this before? was it a problem?
heh, my name is on the high caution list... figured this out after getting just about strip searched in every terminal i walked though for about a year... how many people in the us are named joshua anderson?
still gives me a chuckle, some times. now i know i have to go to the airport early... hmmm i never thought about this before, but i wonder how securety would interpret fire poi(unlit ofcoarse) if you were traveling with only a carry on bag. any one run into this before? was it a problem?
GOLD Member
Nothing but circles and smiles...
118 posts
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Nothing but circles and smiles...
118 posts
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Posted:
oh and btw the no fly list is complete bs, and infraction of civil liberty. THe us has no right to divert foreign flights unless the danger is known and confirmed, as holds true with any country. the act of protecting the citizens of this nation should never destroy the prencipals that make this nation, or make its residents choose to support it. what i think the government and all of the indivisuals that take direct part in it need to remember, is the citizians of a nation obey law, by choice and common consencus, not forced actions of out side parties, weather the demestic or otherwise.
majority is law, order is must be found in each unit for the whole to work. when laws are passed for politics, by those far removed from those they represent, the policy is bound to fail. when you build your country on these policys, you become the terrist, the fassicst, and tyrant, no matter your intentions, and thus you too are bound to fail.
this is most certianly one of those polices. let me just say as a fact not all americans agree with or condone these policies. at the moment we can only can only hope the current change in our countries leadership will find its way back the people it represents.
hope that wasnt too wordy
oh and btw the no fly list is complete bs, and infraction of civil liberty. THe us has no right to divert foreign flights unless the danger is known and confirmed, as holds true with any country. the act of protecting the citizens of this nation should never destroy the prencipals that make this nation, or make its residents choose to support it. what i think the government and all of the indivisuals that take direct part in it need to remember, is the citizians of a nation obey law, by choice and common consencus, not forced actions of out side parties, weather the demestic or otherwise.
majority is law, order is must be found in each unit for the whole to work. when laws are passed for politics, by those far removed from those they represent, the policy is bound to fail. when you build your country on these policys, you become the terrist, the fassicst, and tyrant, no matter your intentions, and thus you too are bound to fail.
this is most certianly one of those polices. let me just say as a fact not all americans agree with or condone these policies. at the moment we can only can only hope the current change in our countries leadership will find its way back the people it represents.
hope that wasnt too wordy
BRONZE Member
Juggler/Spinner
612 posts
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA
Juggler/Spinner
612 posts
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA
Posted:
Eh, I know my country is nuts.
If I had the money, I would move, but I'm just a broke, jobless student. *sigh* One day.
Eh, I know my country is nuts.
If I had the money, I would move, but I'm just a broke, jobless student. *sigh* One day.
SILVER Member
stranger
20 posts
Location: Goa, India
stranger
20 posts
Location: Goa, India
Posted:
They also did this to a Top Indian actor cause he had a Muslim name. The actor name is Shahrukh Khan, lots of Indians are pissed off. As a Indian, I know that we always suck up to the west so this is good for India.
They also did this to a Top Indian actor cause he had a Muslim name. The actor name is Shahrukh Khan, lots of Indians are pissed off. As a Indian, I know that we always suck up to the west so this is good for India.
BRONZE Member
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK
Posted:
"But certainly he is posing a threat to US national security even at this altitude...?"
Um... judging by the disappearance of the world trade center, anybody could have been.
it's called learning from past mistakes
To be fair, yes, america is security crazy, and it's a bit OTT, but, in a state of such paranoia, how do you work out that someone is truly trustworthy?
"But certainly he is posing a threat to US national security even at this altitude...?"
Um... judging by the disappearance of the world trade center, anybody could have been.
it's called learning from past mistakes
To be fair, yes, america is security crazy, and it's a bit OTT, but, in a state of such paranoia, how do you work out that someone is truly trustworthy?
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
hmm, I do understand the craving for safety. What I don't understand is why this craving should be only valid for US Americans and those who are willing to pay tribute to them?
The scenario now is as follows: to be legible for a "visa on arrival" Europeans would have to attain a permit from the US embassy in the respective country first. Then only we can fly to the US... and whether or not we get granted entry, we will learn at the local immigration office...
say WHAT?!?
LtC - I also understand that the US wants security in its airspace... what I am questioning into is the fact that this list contains names of (i.e.) the European government and journalists whose only "crime" is to critizise the US policies... or to bear a muslim names...
hmm, I do understand the craving for safety. What I don't understand is why this craving should be only valid for US Americans and those who are willing to pay tribute to them?
The scenario now is as follows: to be legible for a "visa on arrival" Europeans would have to attain a permit from the US embassy in the respective country first. Then only we can fly to the US... and whether or not we get granted entry, we will learn at the local immigration office...
say WHAT?!?LtC - I also understand that the US wants security in its airspace... what I am questioning into is the fact that this list contains names of (i.e.) the European government and journalists whose only "crime" is to critizise the US policies... or to bear a muslim names...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
Originally Posted By: FireTom
The scenario now is as follows: to be legible for a "visa on arrival" Europeans would have to attain a permit from the US embassy in the respective country first. Then only we can fly to the US... and whether or not we get granted entry, we will learn at the local immigration office...
So you could very well end up paying for your flights and accomodation only to be sent home on arrival?
Originally Posted By: FireTom
The scenario now is as follows: to be legible for a "visa on arrival" Europeans would have to attain a permit from the US embassy in the respective country first. Then only we can fly to the US... and whether or not we get granted entry, we will learn at the local immigration office...
So you could very well end up paying for your flights and accomodation only to be sent home on arrival?
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
I'm not 100% sure how that works with visa applied for and granted by the embassy or consulate, but definitely is the case for "visa on arrival". You might end up turned away, even though you registered with "ESTA"...
A valid permission does not give you the right to enter the US/ to obtain a visa on arrival. Customs and Immigration officers have the final right to grant/ refuse entry (according to informations available).
The US government is just being obnoxious right here. The passengers' lists are sent prior to departure, they could just tell the airline not to board this particular passenger if they want to enter US airspace... they only refuse entry (and let the crew know at this time only which passenger is the "obstacle")
I'm not 100% sure how that works with visa applied for and granted by the embassy or consulate, but definitely is the case for "visa on arrival". You might end up turned away, even though you registered with "ESTA"...
A valid permission does not give you the right to enter the US/ to obtain a visa on arrival. Customs and Immigration officers have the final right to grant/ refuse entry (according to informations available).
The US government is just being obnoxious right here. The passengers' lists are sent prior to departure, they could just tell the airline not to board this particular passenger if they want to enter US airspace... they only refuse entry (and let the crew know at this time only which passenger is the "obstacle")
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)
Posted:
I met a girl backpacking who was supposed to be having an Aus trip with a friend, on a flight changing in the US; she'd just got there that day and was in a major panic as her friend (so far as she was aware without any criminal record, and certainly not smuggling as they'd packed together) had been detained without any explanation or information and not allowed to board their connecting flight. They'd both got 'permission to fly' at the same time, so any visa mistakes should have applied to both of them..
She'd got to Aus (as the airport staff had assured her her friend was just 'being checked' so she should get on the plane and wait) and had no idea if her mate was going to be detained, sent home, or would be arriving in the next day or so.. and no way of getting in touch.
She told me four or five people had been stopped by security from getting on the connecting flight.
I don't believe any other country even requires you to get a visa to just transit through the airport..
I met a girl backpacking who was supposed to be having an Aus trip with a friend, on a flight changing in the US; she'd just got there that day and was in a major panic as her friend (so far as she was aware without any criminal record, and certainly not smuggling as they'd packed together) had been detained without any explanation or information and not allowed to board their connecting flight. They'd both got 'permission to fly' at the same time, so any visa mistakes should have applied to both of them..
She'd got to Aus (as the airport staff had assured her her friend was just 'being checked' so she should get on the plane and wait) and had no idea if her mate was going to be detained, sent home, or would be arriving in the next day or so.. and no way of getting in touch.
She told me four or five people had been stopped by security from getting on the connecting flight.
I don't believe any other country even requires you to get a visa to just transit through the airport..
THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!
If that's okay with you?
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
technically speaking one wouldn't enter the country when in international transit... amd an airport is considered "international territory"...
the US (and as happened to me in the UK btw) is *forcing* you to "immigrate" every time you set foot on US soil and even if it is only for transit. You have to pass immigration AND customs.
Detention without explanation or notification is TOTALITARIAN! :madrant: ( <--- btw, where did this useful icon go?)
"the greatest democracy on earth" is not going to see me for the time being... I'll happily be missing further "Burning Men" for that matter.
technically speaking one wouldn't enter the country when in international transit... amd an airport is considered "international territory"...
the US (and as happened to me in the UK btw) is *forcing* you to "immigrate" every time you set foot on US soil and even if it is only for transit. You have to pass immigration AND customs.
Detention without explanation or notification is TOTALITARIAN! :madrant: ( <---
btw, where did this useful icon go?)"the greatest democracy on earth" is not going to see me for the time being... I'll happily be missing further "Burning Men" for that matter.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Firetom, it's not a sign of totalitarianism.
It's a sign of sheer stupidity. As to which is worse, we could have a very long debate about that.
Firetom, it's not a sign of totalitarianism.
It's a sign of sheer stupidity. As to which is worse, we could have a very long debate about that.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
Destroyer of worlds and ooo shiny.
268 posts
Location: In my own head, United Kingdom
Destroyer of worlds and ooo shiny.
268 posts
Location: In my own head, United Kingdom
Posted:
The last time I was in the USA was way back when we had proper terrorists the IRA.(Not the nutters that kill them self’s. Sorry that’s how you louse. You kill your self you’re a rubbish bomber.)
The USA hardly any security (British passport) The UK was UZI and dog’s were everywhere.
Please don’t take the funny bit as being my point of view.
The last time I was in the USA was way back when we had proper terrorists the IRA.(Not the nutters that kill them self’s. Sorry that’s how you louse. You kill your self you’re a rubbish bomber.)
The USA hardly any security (British passport) The UK was UZI and dog’s were everywhere.
Please don’t take the funny bit as being my point of view.
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