Forums > Social Discussion > Respecting subculture arts- or lack thereof

Posted: 10th May 2008
It's a more common problem than you might think in the arts. Musicians are notorious for this. There are issues among graphic design too. There are so many people willing to do it for cheap, or for free that it belittles the entire community. Sadly most people haven't seen a quality show from true professionals, so they don't know the difference between the pro, and their cousins friend who will do it for free.

Free work hurts the whole industry

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Posted: 10th May 2008
I wouldn't like to discourage people from working for free for a cause they believe in (fundraisers, for friends etc)- and some people people getting their first bit of experience performing are *going* to do it free no matter what, 'cos often it's that or nothing..

Anyway- I think a lot of the reasoning behind this attitude is even more basic- busking. A depressing number of people will assume buskers are.. well.. talented homeless people. I know round where I live that's actually a reasonable assumption- we have a couple of resident buskers who are basically begging with an instrument.

That's likely the associations you're up against.

When the last time you saw a juggler performing, of someone 'doing balloon stuff' was on the street, and that is your assumption, I can imagine it would be quite easy to not take it very seriously.
(By the way, please don't get the wrong impression from this post- I *do* consider a lot of the buskers I've seen to be artists, and really good performers.. I've just seen the guys with the guitar they can play 2 chords on while singing Oasis songs in a tuneless nasal whine as well- but I reckon a lot of people just class anyone performing outside an established venue as all pretty much equal, however stupid that may be)

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Posted: 10th May 2008
The thing is, the people they are asking are *known* professionals not only in this area, but on a global scale.
Larry is in Guinness for his balloon sculptures, and even that isn't enough.

These are art "organizations". In fact, the Arts Council is backed by the New York State Council for the Arts. These aren't simply passers-by or audience members, which I can understand.
These are people who should be more open and they aren't and it really gets to me.

How do we change that...without going bankrupt putting on a show and without the grant funds people are trying to get?
It seems like a catch 22.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 10th May 2008
do a show on a smaller scale so they can see what your on about then paint them a picture of the larger scale, pictures/videos of similar style events could help. Most people that give grants are not so good at imagining things, they need to be able to see it particularly if it falls outside of the guidelines, that whole needing reassurance that doing something outside of the norm will payoff

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

Posted: 10th May 2008

 Written by :ben-ja-men


do a show on a smaller scale so they can see what your on about then paint them a picture of the larger scale, pictures/videos of similar style events could help. Most people that give grants are not so good at imagining things, they need to be able to see it particularly if it falls outside of the guidelines, that whole needing reassurance that doing something outside of the norm will payoff

Larry does the balloon manor every year. It takes up *rooms* in a local shopping mall (it's really big), so I know they know what he is capable of.

Beyond that, do you at all think it would be counter productive? I can see how it would be a good idea completely, if they could get the council members there especially. You don't think the arts council will then think "Well, if they can put on this show, they don't need the money." Or, if it is a small show for charity, then it's for free and it circles back to the perception that "freebie equals less than professional".

Could you tell me more of what you mean by a small show? I am not sure what they would do would be what you are thinking, so if I can get clarification on something that will work, they may be all for it...well except for G., the soap bubble guy. He's right ticked off over it all.

Thanks Ben, I'm very interested in your thoughts.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 10th May 2008

 Written by :Pele


Larry does the balloon manor every year. It takes up *rooms* in a local shopping mall (it's really big), so I know they know what he is capable of.

I wouldnt make that assumption. People who give out grants see LOOOOOADS of proposals and as a general rule are social networkers who meet hundreds of new people each year and see lots of interesting stuff. Even if you do make an impression on them they are unlikely to remember your name, unless you have a personal relationship with them (and even then it can require prompting) you need to give them a context in the application.

Look at it from the perspective of someone outside of the community, i know that when i see cool artwork i could describe it in great detail but im hard pressed to tell you the name of the artist 5 minutes after seeing it.

 Written by :Pele


Beyond that, do you at all think it would be counter productive? I can see how it would be a good idea completely, if they could get the council members there especially. You don't think the arts council will then think "Well, if they can put on this show, they don't need the money."

completely the opposite, if you want to get a grant for say a million dollars, first you need to get one for 50K then 200K then they will think about giving you the 1M, why? simply because they want to see what you can do with the money you have then give you more to do bigger and better stuff, funding bodys want to back winners.

 Written by :Pele

"freebie equals less than professional".

professionalism is your business card, the language you use, the clothes you wear, how you interact with the client, how punctual you are, do you know the clients business background, etc. Negotiate the terms if your doing it for free what is the charity doing for you? i would suggest a minimum of covering costs and professional photography and video of the art to be used in application would be a good one, not to mention publically telling everyone how wonderful you are, etc etc

 Written by :Pele


Could you tell me more of what you mean by a small show? I am not sure what they would do would be what you are thinking, so if I can get clarification on something that will work, they may be all for it...well except for G., the soap bubble guy. He's right ticked off over it all.

Thanks Ben, I'm very interested in your thoughts.

You need something to show them regardless of scale, if they put money into it and it flops then it reflects poorly on them, they get lots of applications (most applications for venture capital funding have less than 5 minutes spent reading them [these are 40+ page documents!!]) if they dont get what your idea is they simply move on to the next one. Busy ppl that owe you nothing require consise clarity preferably in visual form

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

Posted: 10th May 2008
I am sorry, this is my fault for a miscommunication.

I'm not talking grants for millions. Thousands definately.
I am also not talking about private investment grants where companies only see the paperwork.

This is actually our local art council. They are all artists. They are given a certain amount of money to allocate to local artists. They set it up as a grant opportunity. To get these grants is not nearly as intensive as if I were to hit up a large company, say, Proctor and Gamble for one of the art developement grants. These aren't 40 page with business outlines and supply demand research. These are formulated specifically for small artists and are 7 pages, all standardized like a questionaire.

This is a small city and many of the artists know one another personally. We populate the same functions. And yet, they are still turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to expanding their idea of what is or is not art.

These guys can't even get a $700 artist grants because the council, comprised of actors, musicians and painters, won't recognise them as doing art.

Again, I'm sorry. That is completely my lack of communicating the scale of this.

Now, I completely agree with starting for the small grants and moving up.
I also agree that professional is far more a compilation of many things, rather than one notion. Yet as hamamelis, that notion is still strong and it is a battle we fight, no matter how our promotional information looks.
Ted (Wes Peden's teacher) is *very* professional always. I really admire that about him. It still hasnt't helped him because he is "just a juggler".

I wanted this thread to be more about ideas for getting other artists in more mainstream mediums to accept what we do, as well as other subculture arts, as arts as well.
Again, I should have made that more clear as well.

You have some really great ideas there Ben, and I *really* empathize with the whole "I can describe the art but not name the artist." I am very much the same way.

Which brings up then, how do you make sure they *know* your name? In our shows we say it, we have them say it. It's actually, believe it or not, a tactic I learned from a Disturbed concert...and it was phenominal! I was so blown away, we walked away with it and figured out a way to make it our own.
I do know many acts that tactic wouldn't work for, so other than talking of yourself in the 3rd person, or inundating the audience with banners of your group name, how do you impress on someone in 10 minutes or less not only your skill but *who* you are. Especially as a balloon artist or a juggler who uses circus style skills to accent his leadership seminars he's hired to give, but the attendees may not know who he is. It's all so different from what we do, it really intrigues me, you know?

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 10th May 2008

 Written by :Pele



This is a small city and many of the artists know one another personally. We populate the same functions. And yet, they are still turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to expanding their idea of what is or is not art.

I would still question how well your friends know the people giving out the grants, for example ive been going to the spinning meet in adelaide for many years now, its a small community but there are lots of people there who go regularly that i recognise but have never spoken to, there are other people who i have met many times but have no idea what their name is or what they do.

 Written by :Pele



These guys can't even get a $700 artist grants because the council, comprised of actors, musicians and painters, won't recognise them as doing art.

i would be looking at what sort of things they do give out money for, it could be that they arnt asking for enough money (crazy as that may seem) or it could be that what they are asking for doesnt fit the criteria of what the grant it set up to support (ie asking for travel expenses may be outside of the criteria but new equipment is ok), when we first asked for money (4K) from the industry body set up to support innovation in the wine industry (in australia the growers pay a levy on each tonne of grapes sold that goes to this fundinig body so, the have a multimillion dollar budget each year) they said even though they loved the idea, they couldnt help us as we where a private company and they only funded public research, its important to put the right spin on what your asking for.

 Written by :Pele



I wanted this thread to be more about ideas for getting other artists in more mainstream mediums to accept what we do, as well as other subculture arts, as arts as well.

you could always get them to apply for grants to work with disadvantaged groups, in australia there is alot of money available for that i would imagine there are similar things available there. that way the focus of the grant is on the outcomes (empowerment, coordination, new skills etc) as opposed to the medium.

 Written by :Pele



Which brings up then, how do you make sure they *know* your name?

it really depends on what you do and how you interact with the people, repitition from the MC is good, otherwise you need something that leaves a visual impact, business cards given to the right people (blanketinig a crowd is a waste of trees) for me i use the context of the project i am working on because its very unique

 Written by :Pele

Especially as a balloon artist or a juggler who uses circus style skills to accent his leadership seminars he's hired to give, but the attendees may not know who he is.

every business workshop i have been to (more than i care to count) always has the persons business card attached to and printed on the notes, most presenters shamelessly plug themselves and how wonderful they are with all the amazing things that they have done at the beginning of the workshop to give themselves credibility to the audience.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

Posted: 10th May 2008
Raise awareness in the local arts community? Picket? Inform "viable artists" and try to get them on board with a boycott?

Not sure what to tell you.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

Posted: 11th May 2008
It's unfortunate, but the art world is filled with snobs.

These grant granting people are probably looking at balloon sculpture as more of a "craft" than an "art" and most likely deem it unworthy of funding. The same thing probably applies to juggling, after all it's not really dance now is it ?

Years ago I ran into this type of thinking when i came up with an art idea that I wanted to pursue as a career and I thought a few grand would help me buy supplies and provide a non-starvation income while I developed my idea. HA !!!!

I got all sorts of excuses, but it basically boiled down to the idea I had wasn't "artsy" enough and likely had commercial potential ( well duh ) and was something nobody, anywhere had seen before so there was no way of judging whether I was "skilled" at what I was doing.

Also, another drawback was my lack of formal art education ( I have a degree in biochemistry ) so my "just winging it" approach didn't sit to well with the grant guys either.

I just ended up keeping my job and spreading out the research and development over three years as opposed to the one year I wanted to do it in. It worked out in the end, I ended up with an art that was commercially viable, quit my job and never looked back.

It's been 12 years now and it's still going strong.

Posted: 11th May 2008
Just one thing to think about.
If you are trying to start up a performance troupe more of a buisness rather than a performance. There are lots of small buissness start up grants out there that apply. Also obviously only if this can apply to you there are lots of youth grants around aswell.

I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />

Posted: 21st Aug 2008
Sorry to jump on this late... I did my usual "Balloon Artist" google search every few months and just saw this!


As someone who has and is dealing with this type of thing, there are several areas that need to be understood.

First, is that the arts we are talking about are NICHE. That is, chances are, the average Joe (or Jane) would not immediately consider them to be worthy of an art grant, and, in all likelihood, actually be concerned about a political backlash if it was foudn they were fudning 'clowns'.

As much as it hurts me to use those words (I am not and never will be a clown), that is the general attitude you will come across in art grants within a local government or arts society organisation.

Also, as mentioned above, these people field requests from crazies all the time, people wanting a grant to make a lifesize building out of popsicle sticks, a giant tree out of tin cans etc etc. We cannot expect them not to lump our niche area of expertise into that group.

In fact, who is to say that the popsicle stick artist isn't as worthy as a balloon artists or juggler to receive a grant. That person is the Grant Co-ordinator, not US.


So what you need is OUTSIDE credibility. Thirs parties who know and see what you do and value it, but are not part of the niche community. And how do you do that?

Sponsorship! Not a grant, go to all the big businesses and talk to their marketing departments. Make your event, sculpture or teaching process newsworthy, even if only the local rags, and get the sponsors what they want, an audience.

It's hard work, you need to be a negotiator, a business person, an enthusiast and you need put a LOT of effort into pushing what you are doing.

But once you have actually had a successful event, and nothing says success more thana corporate sponsorship, (even the local pub is a good place to start), you instantly have credibility.

After that, you may be able to approach the Art Grant people again. Then again, you may not need to, you may find the sponsorship angle easier once it has started.


Let the Arts Grant people fight over their grants, I'd rather go out and get money that won't be contested by a thousand other applicants.


In my opnion, of course...

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Posted: 22nd Aug 2008
I can't believe I haven't seen this thread until now!! Pele, I am sorry you have to deal with such close-minded grantmakers in your local community. That truly sucks.

I am an arts grantmaker. This is my work: www.sfgfta.org So I can offer an insider's perspective here, from the other side of the table.

I am the Program Manager. As such, the bulk of my job is reviewing applications from nonprofit arts organizations who wish to be funded by my agency. I review applications and make recommendations for funding, but mine is not the final word. Our budget must be approved by the City Administrator and the Mayor.

I would love love love to fund more circus. We used to fund two circuses, but they were defunded not because of the arts not being respected, but because of financial and programmatic issues with those particular organizations that caused them to not fit our criteria any longer.

I also serve on funding panels for private funding sources (nonprofits or foundations) as well as other cities. It's in those other programs that I have most contact with individual artist applications as my normal job does not fund individual artists.

I can't speak to what the issue is in New York, but I can say that out here, circus and its related arts are indeed viable but we see relatively few applications from such artists. I have seen circus artists and arts organizations funded -- though primarily for arts education programs in "at risk" schools i.e., poor schools in the inner-city, let's be frank.

As far as performances/projects go, I think many funders would love to fund circus, but it has to be at a level of production values comparable to that of professional dance and theater companies. A company like https://7doigts.com/accueil.html , for example, would be funded in a heartbeat. Cirque Berzerk https://www.cirqueberzerk.com/beneath/index.html , if they were to apply for funding (presuming they are a non-profit) would also probably make a viable application. It has to be like that though. Am I being clear? The group or individual must be doing their own show, not just appearing at someone else's event. The group or individual must have a history of doing such activities, and there needs to be documentation in a demo reel. Michael Moschen, quite famously, was awarded a MacArthur Foundation "genius" grant for his work. The tipping point for him was the fact that his approach is much more that of a traditional dancer -- there is an intellectual rigorousness and consciously developed aesthetic at work. His shows or demo reel would not have been footage of busking or festivals or what have you, but staged performances.

What the issue (I think) is that independent circus artists (and troupes) are relatively new to the funding game, as compared to theater artists, visual artists, dancers and classical musicians. I've consulted with a circus group out here (the Mystic Family Circus) and that experience, as well as personal conversations I've had with people in the scene, tell me that circus artists in general are not quite as up to speed with nonprofit development as artists/administrators in other art forms. Circus has been around forever, but the artists haven't been plugged into the funding streams and are less savvy about how it all works than their counterparts in other forms.

To make viable applications, I'd recommend a number of tactics:

1) go to performances by groups/artists that are funded. see not only what they do but how they do it. the quality of work is important, but the quality of production values and presentation is just as important if not moreso.

2) ask the funding agency to view successful applications. trickier with private foundations, but with a public funding agency (a city, state or federal government funding source) such applications are a matter of public record and should be viewable upon request. see how a successful proposal is put together. pay particular attention to the financial sections.

3) find a development consultant / professional grantwriter and get some feedback about putting proposals together

4) raise funds from your local community, build up the assets of your organization (if a group) or start doing your own shows.

5) speak to the administrators of dance or theater companies about nonprofit management and programming

Pele, to address the issue you bring up of the applications being thrown out -- that is totally bogus. If the artist presents himself as a visual artist, it is not up to the program administrators to dismiss it out of hand, the proposal should be forwarded onto the panel and let them make the review as part of the normal process. The local arts organizations who refuse to pay jugglers and such also are seriously misguided. That would never happen out here -- poi spinners and hoopers especially are often hired by some of our major museums to perform at special events for their donors -- galas and openings and such. I'm so sorry your local community is so ass-backwards. Tell them that their counterparts in California know where it's at.

I'm sorry if this post is rambling. It's late, I was at a dance performance earlier, I'm making Burning Man preparations and I've had a drink. Just couldn't not respond though, given the topic and what I do for a living.

taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

Posted: 22nd Aug 2008
also, possibly work the "outsider artist" angle. it's a condescending designation, imo, but arts funders eat it up. just how it is.

taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

Posted: 22nd Aug 2008
great post Khan! Thanks for the detail, it is totally useful...
love ya
a

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 26th Aug 2008
Khan... Great to see one of our own in your position and to hear things from the 'other' side as well.

I think #4. is particularly useful... One more step would be, once a show or installation is complete and looking polished, give some free tickets to the funding decisionm makers.

That way, if they can attend, they get a full appreciation for what you do, without as much clouding from their preconceptions...

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